In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Wayne Pollock discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Today’s conversation is tomorrow’s blog post. Listen very carefully to the questions your client is asking and the concerns they are raising." — Wayne Pollock
Connect with Wayne Pollock:
Website: lawfirmeditorialservice.com
Email: Wayne@lawfirmeditorialservice.com
Website: copostrategies.com
Website: writelessbillmore.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/waynepollock
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Wayne Pollock 0:00
Today's conversation is tomorrow's blog post. What I mean by that is listen very closely to what your clients are asking you the questions. They're asking you the concerns that they're raising, even if they didn't call you to talk about them. If they mentioned something in passing, you can go, huh, that's interesting can scribble it down on a notepad or on the Notes app on your phone or whatever your kind of thought, recording devices of your choice.
Narrator 0:30
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:53
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, I hope everybody's having a wonderful day today and looking for some great takeaways, tips, ideas from the show. As usual, I try to find the best guests I can to interview and, and give you some tangible takeaways that you can use to improve your business development. As you know, frettin Inc focuses on helping lawyers all over the country to grow their books of business. And sometimes it's business development that you want to focus on. And it might be a good resource for that. In other situations, you might want to do things more marketing or branding focused. And so the goal is to continue to put good people in front of you that you could use or that you can get great ideas from today is no, absolutely no different. I've got a tremendous guest in Wayne Pollack, who is the founder of copo strategies. And that's it right Copo Cabo.
Wayne Pollock 1:40
You did. It's short for the court of public opinion, which will happen and there we go.
Steve Fretzin 1:43
There we go. And also founder of law firm editorial service. So Wayne's already jumped in here. So how's it going? Wayne?
Wayne Pollock 1:51
Steve, I'm doing great. And thanks so much for for my yarn. I am what you would call a longtime listener first time caller.
Steve Fretzin 1:59
So yeah, no, I appreciate that. I'm thrilled that you've had the opportunity to hear some of the shows and give me some positive feedback. And I'm always looking for feedback. If it's positive, I'm thrilled. If it's negative, keep it to yourself. Now. If it's negative, then I want to hear like Yo, you keep saying the same words over and over or you your sound is terrible, or something that all helps me to just make better decisions on improvements for the future. So but as my audience knows very well, I do terrible job on the intro. So if you could give a background on yourself, because I think you're a lawyer, and then you've transitioned into this great businesses. So help maybe give a little more background on that.
Wayne Pollock 2:35
Yes, well, well, thanks for the invitation. So I am a former big law, senior litigation associate, I was at Decker, which is a large law firm based here in Philadelphia and in New York, and they've got an office in your neck of the woods in Chicago. I was there for six and a half years after law school. And eventually, I heard the siren call of entrepreneurship and wanting to go out on my own and public relations background before law school really wanted to find a way to merge my public relations background and my legal background. And when I left in 2016, I had the perfect combination of both ignorance and naivete, I left to go out on my own and didn't have a clue about what I was doing, marketing wise business development wise. And it was a little bit of a rough tumble. When there's no parachute in a safety net. Sometimes you jump any snack and hit your face on the ground. But I bounce back, and I'm very happy to be an entrepreneur and to work with lawyers and law firms. So I my practice is really a couple things. I have a very limited legal practice, which is the Kobo strategies component. And that's working with lawyers and their clients and high profile cases to ethically strategically and practically engage the court of public opinion. Again, in high profile cases, the courtroom battle is one thing, but the social media battle, the media battle, the public side of the battle needs to be accounted for and strategically approached. And I provide a mix of legal strategy, media strategy, ethics, compliance, and defamation avoidance to help my co counsel and their clients stay on the straight and narrow. I also have a marketing and PR consulting arm of my business, which helps attorneys really small, medium sized firms with their marketing and PR with a heavy focus on referral marketing. And finally, the law firm editorial service isn't relatively new offering but the past year or so that came about because I had lawyers asking me to work with them to come up with a content strategy. And ethically ghost writes some of the material that they wanted to write blog posts, the client alerts, articles and trade publications. And they were just too darn busy to do. And when I had a couple clients come to me and asked about my services. I said, Wow, okay, maybe there's a demand there. And then when an am law 30 Law Firm asked me to write another 10 blog series for its partners. I said, Oh, yeah, there's demand there. So that's, you know, it's important to lawyers to always keep an eye and ear to the market and listen to see what your clients are telling you in terms of new offerings. And I'm a prime example of listening to what my clients are telling me and what I was getting from the market, like there was a demand for this. So that's, I think we'll probably talk mostly about today, because Steve, there's just so much marketing and business development content that is either not getting written by lawyers, or is getting written poorly. And it's detrimental to their business development and marketing efforts. Because it doesn't move the needle, if they are producing material, it's not helpful, not resonating on the clients and with the clients they're trying to target.
Steve Fretzin 5:38
So let's jump into it with both feet. I mean, attorneys are very busy, they are, you know, just constantly, you know, burning on both ends. And so when the idea of Hey, let's write an article together, or let's get something published, or whatever, you know, there's a percentage that's going to be up for it. And there's a percentage that's gonna say, No way don't have the time hate to write, etc. So what are some of the kind of primary challenges of or frustrations attorneys have with writing and, and why they're so opposed to doing it?
Wayne Pollock 6:05
Yeah, I mean, I think the time crunch is obviously a huge, huge deal. It's often the attorney either taking non billable time to write a piece of content, a blog, post an article for the local daily legal newspaper, or what have you, or taking that time to build to a client to deal with some other kind of business development issue or, or events to perhaps do an administrative event at their office, or perhaps God forbid, live their life outside the office and pursue a personal and professional interest outside the office. So you have that time crunch that's baked into everything lawyers do. But there's often a fundamental misunderstanding of what content can do. your content is your 20 473 65 advocate. It is a little Steve Benson is living on the website living in the podcast player living on Amazon. As always, they're ready to advocate on behalf of you. Because of the content you've created. The content you've created, either in the Chicago daily law bulletin or your podcast episodes, or your books they live on. And when you are busy with your family, or busy with a client or out running an errand, it's still doing this work for you. I think lawyers often view a blog post or an article or client alert is a one time thing as a one time investment project five hours of my time, I'm not getting a time back. But they are because that piece of content lives on in cyberspace. Let's say you had the time issue that I find it fascinating to this really interesting dynamic where most lawyers are decent writers when it comes to the legal papers that they are responsible for the nasty letter to opposing counsel, the motion, the pleadings they filed with the court. But when it comes to talking to general counsel's through their content talking to, you know, whoever their potential clients are, they don't, they don't is the skills don't translate as well. And I think that's because when you're dealing with your legal documents, your opposing party, the audience receiving that document, the court, the judges, clerks, opposing counsel, they have no choice. They have to read that content. If they want to do their job and defend their client or clear their docket, or write an opinion, they've got to read what you're writing. And, you know, obviously, you want to make your arguments well, and your legal documents, but the person on the receiving end has no choice, they've got to read. Contrast that to your general counsel or your ideal prospective client. Imagine their web browser, they've got 15 tabs, open the Wall Street Journal, you know, maybe espn.com, maybe some lifestyle, blog, Amazon, they have their normal work related material, and then pops up your client alert regarding a recent Seventh Circuit decision. If that client alert is not written in a way that is compelling and interesting. It's not going to get read, your audience has a choice whether to read or not read the content that you create. I think lawyers forget the burden is on them. The burden is on the lawyer when writing this kind of business and marketing, sorry, money development, marketing and business ultimate content, the burden is on them. To write compelling material that keeps the reader engaged, the reader is not going to stick around if the content isn't interesting and well written.
Steve Fretzin 9:30
Is one of the concerns to that they're going to invest the time to write something and then it's just not going to do anything. It's just going to sit out you said sit out there and it becomes a little Steve Fretzin. And I've got lots of little Steve Fretzins, for instance out there, which I think is okay. The other people feel about that. I don't think my wife would appreciate that now. But the idea that you know, you write an article and it sits on your law firms website, and that's really where it lives and dies.
Wayne Pollock 9:56
Yeah, you know, there's something I like to call the cumulative effect. have content and you see this with speakers at conferences, you see it with lawyers attracting business to their website. If you can create a record, just like we do litigation, if you create a record of your, your blog posts, your client alerts, your articles, your white papers, your research, wherever you do, that record speaks for itself, it conveys to the person who's viewing that record, whether it's a potential client, or potential referral source, maybe a conference organizer, or a reporter, member of the media, it signals to them that you know what you're talking about, and that you are eloquent enough to continue to talk about that over a long period of time. I mean, you and I could, could look at this from a very personal perspective, if you're looking for a professional services provider, maybe an accountant, maybe a business coach, and go to different websites, and someone has a blog post a blog that hasn't updated since you know, January 2020. And here we are April 2021, versus someone who has content that's fresh, maybe not every day, and probably not every week, but maybe every two weeks, every month, the content is fresh, they're conveying to you knowledge, and insights and guidance that will hopefully persuade you as the person who's in the market for someone that they are the right choice. And you see this with conference organizers. If you want to pitch yourself to give a speech at a well known conference where you think your prospective clients are going to be? Well guess what, it's helpful if you've got recordings of your prior videos, or videos or recordings of your prior speeches, it's also nice to have this, this volume, this this record of all the things that you've written because it shows is it's a body of work that shows your expertise, and what you can provide the value you provide to that audience. So on one hand, these things tend to stick around in cyberspace, but you have to direct them the right way. So that is often making sure that they're on your firm's social media page. They're on your bio, repurposing this in email newsletters, the content is the fuel for marketing and business development. Education based marketing is the way we're going. It's not going to stop anytime soon. Because there's almost limitless real estate, we think about where you could put your content. When you're thinking about your firm's website, your front blog, your email newsletters is all of these outlets. So it's incumbent upon the law firm, and the marketing BD folks at a law firm. If there are those folks to think about repurposing this content, the lawyer should be the one coming up with the ideas and being plugged in to the client. That's a very important topic we can get into which is you've got to write for your clients interests.
Steve Fretzin 12:46
That was going to be my next point is attorneys are sitting out there saying, Yeah, I'd like to write I think I'm a good writer. And I know that I can make a difference. And I can educate and I know my subject very well. But what do I write on? And who is it going to? And how do I make it sustainable? So if you could hit those three, and get some ideas and takeaways for people that are listening to how they could do it on their own, that would really be helpful.
Wayne Pollock 13:11
Yeah. Look, I always like to say, today's conversation is tomorrow's blog post. What I mean by that is, listen very closely to what your clients are asking you. The questions are asking you the concerns they're raising, even if they didn't call you to talk about them. If they mentioned something in passing, you can go Hmm, that's interesting, can scribble it down on a notepad or on the Notes app in your phone, or whatever your kind of thought, recording devices of your choice. Listen to what your partners are saying, if you're not a big enough law firm, you've got various practice groups, and you're a litigator. And your corporate people are talking about some issue that their clients raise, that's really a litigation problem. You can say, huh, that's interesting. I never thought about like that. And you can think about whether writing a piece of content that is going toward that audience, they're not that they might be in your kind of demographic, but they're not the right kind of legal claim. They're, they're their corporate people, and you want litigation or vice versa. But listening out for ideas from the people who you want to reach, I think is important. I'm always surprised how few attorneys understand that they can use content for referrals, they can use content for cross selling within their firm, when we take referrals for a second. If you're a civil rights lawyer, and you really want to develop more excessive force cases, well, you better get to know the local criminal defense attorneys in your area. And one way to engage them and build that relationship is by writing to them in the form of these blog posts or or an article so imagine if you're looking for criminal defense, you want Criminal Lawyers to get to know you and view you as knowledgeable. You should be writing about the overlap between your practices. So You might want to write about the the facts or the circumstances in what seems like a normal arrest that actually gives rise to Section 1983 civil rights claim. Or if you are, you know, employment lawyer, and you are wanting to develop your business among startups, then you can write an article focused on maybe corporate people who in private equity people, attorneys, who are servicing startups, and what they might want to be thinking about as their funding startups, there's so much overlap, that, again, attorneys are often too busy to really see but they just stop for a moment about what kinds of work they do, and what kinds of work either referral attorneys that they want referrals from do, or what their clients are looking for. And really, the possibilities are endless. Excuse me, possibilities are endless. Endless. Yeah, surprise. assumption.
Steve Fretzin 15:54
Yeah. So it's gonna be either you're writing for the connectors, the people that can send stuff your way. And or the the end users, the people, the GCs, the CEOs that are looking for that content or interested in that content. And I liked what you said about, you know, today's conversations are tomorrow's blog posts. And this is the way most good writers and bloggers do it is they, they have a conversation, or they hear something or they read something, and they write about it right away, because it's relevant. And it's what's going on now. And they get ahead of the curve. And I think that's something that's lost, as well as research, you know, if you know that there's laws or things that are changing, so we got the Biden administration taking over. So in estate planning, what's changing and litigation, what's changing? And how were you staying in front of that versus being, you know, kind of way in the back? Is that something that you try to work off of as well, that kind of like what's hot and coming up?
Wayne Pollock 16:48
Absolutely. And that's a great point, I typically view there being two kinds of this marketing and business development content, there is the timely stuff. So for example, a court decision comes out your construction law attorney, and a case comes out about a construction law issue, you're gonna want to harp on that, because that's showing your audience from a marketing perspective that you're on top of things, and you are following developments in the wall. And your clients and prospective clients will probably benefit from a brief and well written write up about that case. But then you have the evergreen content. And the evergreen content, I think, is not only a great marketing tool, I think it's a fantastic business development tool. So if we talk about marketing as as kind of getting people to the door, and business development is helping to get them through the door and signing on the dotted line, that business development content could be very specific to your ideal clients needs once and the legal problems. And it's perfect, because we actually are able to have a business to have a business development conversation with them, you could point back to that content as proof positive that you and your firm are the right ones for that client. So your example, if you are a law firm with a cybersecurity practice, and you go and you can cover the recent decisions regarding cybersecurity issues, discovery issues, wherever, whatever. But if you're writing a series of blog posts, and occasional evergreen kind of post about what a company should do to maintain a krip attorney client privilege after a data breach, and during the investigation that isn't obviously timely, it's evergreen, that's going to last for a while like an evergreen tree. But when you're meeting with a GC or another representative of a company that just had a data breach, and they are scrambling. And you can say, you know, so funny, we wrote an article A while ago about maintaining attorney client privilege affinity, I want you to think about this. Because there it's a very important concern in these early days after the breach. So not only are you providing the kind of general marketing content, but when you are when you're zoomed in and zoomed into these conversations with a prospective client or referral source, you have a piece of content that already takes care of and addresses the concern they're having right there. And that's why it's so important to listen to your clients. Because what your clients concern is today, could be another clients concern the month, two months or a year from now. And obviously, you don't want your content to go stale, you might have to update it. But concerns are concerns. A soon to be divorced, say, who's coming into your office today is going to have the same concerns as a possible client will six months from now. So it's really important. Stay tuned in. Because there there's a chance to talk to people on a deeper level than most law firms are willing to we're able to build because they don't have sophisticated programs for writing these kinds of marketing and development content. Gotcha. Gotcha.
Steve Fretzin 19:45
Here's another question that I'm curious about. From your perspective. I've had a number of interviews of attorneys that are talking specifically about specialization niching down, I work with my clients on that as well because if they're too broad, they're just there. not known for anything. General litigator. Okay. So do you recommend that lawyers write more in a niche or more in a fine line to cover a small category versus more broadly?
Wayne Pollock 20:12
I so I advise clients when they're thinking about their strategy and how we are going to write content over the course of the next quarter, or six months or a year to focus on their ideal clients, but not just the legal issues occupying that ideal clients time. I think what you want to do and hear these these terms thrown about, like thought leadership and authority and expert, but I think what's more important is you conveying knowledge in a way that makes your target audience understand exactly what you make them understand exactly why you are the right lawyer and your firm's right firm to help them for these legal matters. I'm sure you hear this all the time that lawyers come to you and say, well, we're not just lawyers, we're business counselors, or we help advise on big time business issues. I tell them, okay, great. So put your money, where your website content and tagline is, if you really want to cover business issues, then write about those business issues. If you are dealing with an industry that you could cover more than just legal issues, for example, construction, if you are covering if you want to talk to GCS of developers, and contractors, and don't just focus on the law, let's talk about the surge in prices of building materials thanks to COVID-19 and the housing boom, they're both out, expand your expand the depth of the information that you're that you're going into and the coverage area. Think about it like a newspaper, a newspaper serves a local geography. But they also had they had the new section, the general new section, business, lifestyle sports, thinking about your content in that way. Yes, of course, your lawyer and your most qualified to talk about your legal legal issues a client might face. But go broadly, what else can you talk about? That is of concern to that, those kinds of general counsel's.
Steve Fretzin 22:09
Wayne I'm sorry, to interrupt you, I just want to come comment and compliment you what you're saying. Because that's so unique and different. As far as a mindset, you know, I'm going to write on the law on this subject. And if you know the subject in and out and you know, the ins and outs event on a variety of levels, and playing and playing fields, whatever, you can write about the sales that's going on, you could write about the economics of it, you could write about all the different varieties of things, not just the law, I think that's going to separate you from the pack.
Wayne Pollock 22:39
That's a classic kind of content marketing tool, where if you were to look at, you know, some kind of some wellness brand drug or gym brand, they're not just talking about bench presses, shoulder presses, and burning calories. They're talking about a healthy lifestyle, what you eat, what you do mindfulness. So obviously, with the law, we can't really go too far abroad. We can't go too broad like that, but but we can think about the issues that are that concern. Our clients, I have to tell you, I'd be remiss if I didn't say this, we are really coming close to the beginning of the era of non lawyer ownership of law firms. And no matter where you're at where you're listening, there's a good chance within the next 510 15 years, there's going to be non lawyer, law firms owned law firms in your area. And the big companies come in, and they have robust content marketing engines, they staff, their teams, like a newsroom. And editor plots have full time writers. And I just want to say that because if lawyers don't understand that they need to serve content to their clients on a regular basis, not every day, but at least maybe every week, every two weeks, if they don't understand that, they're going to get socked in the face by these competitors, who know already the value of content and know the ability to convince people to purchase their services based on the content. So you have to go broad. And again, if you're already claiming to consider these issues, when you give your legal advice, and put it on paper and write articles and blogs about it, because you'll find clients will be much more responsive and view you as that true business counselor, because you are addressing the business issues they would expect such a counselor to address.
Steve Fretzin 24:29
And what about this is this is obviously, you know, something someone would say that's copping out, but I'm just gonna put it out there. I don't want to give away my ideas. I don't want to write because I that's those are my ideas.
Wayne Pollock 24:42
Yeah. So I hear that. And that was, I think, a problem with lawyers maybe 10 years ago, when it comes to website content, online content. The fact of the matter is that we're not giving legal advice here. When you're writing about an issue. You're writing about a general issue. You're not actually Telling the client exactly what to do in their situation, given a nuances of the law that you didn't talk about in a blog post, and the nuances of a factual situation that's developing, you know, as you speak, I don't think lawyers should worry about the special sauce, it's actually the opposite. You know, it's not like you are giving away your your secret ingredients, you are simply like the person at Costco or another warehouse store before COVID. And hopefully, after COVID, giving out little samples, and this little white cups on those crackers, or of those gummies, because you want the person that the prospective client who's who's coming by your website, or receiving your email newsletter, to get a taste of the knowledge that you have. And the best way to do that is to show them. You're knowledgeable, by creating content that reflects that knowledge how obviously, no, no, yeah, we can read all your represent your representative cases on your bio, but that's in the past, is the content that helps them convince helps convince them, that you are the right person for them.
Steve Fretzin 26:05
Thanks, Wayne. And I want to wrap up with something that I heard you that you sent to me prior to the interview. And it was really about understanding the time money energy that goes into writing, and why it may not make sense to write your own content, if you're billing X amount an hour. And there's a calculator that you recommended people you know, use to kind of, can you just take a minute to talk about that and how people can figure out if writing is a good use of their time or not, or when they should outsource.
Wayne Pollock 26:33
So I appreciate that, that, Steve. So I came up with a thought what I call the thought leadership cost calculator, it's called it's at write less bill more, right? Like a W like written material, like less Bill more.com. And lawyers can put in numbers, the amount of attorneys at their firm, the average kind of billable hourly rate for about a mid level associate, and how many pieces of content, they would want their lawyers at their firm to write each year, you click calculate, you put in your email address to receive a report, click calculate. And you may be shocked, is it cost money to write this kind of content, if you love to write, and you have the time to write and your law firm is structured, where you can take that time, and fantastic. But what I have found is that lawyers understand that there is a tension between them creating this content, they really have to create and actually getting their billable work done, and their other responsibilities. And that's really, I think the value of working someone like me, and people like me, who can help lawyers walk through ethically, walk through the collaboration process and write an article that's based on a 20 minute conversation that you have. And then you come back and you receive from someone like me, the 1200 word article about that content about that topic. Again, it's in collaboration for ethical purposes, it's not just go write this and you go write it, but it's an ethical way to market yourself really while you stay billable. And while you're able to handle your other work related tasks.
Steve Fretzin 28:02
Okay, so people are listening, and they're saying, I think I'd like to learn more about Wayne and what what he's doing for attorneys and how he might be able to help me in my firm, how do they get in touch with you? What are the digits?
Wayne Pollock 28:12
Thank you. So I would suggest a visit lawfirmeditorial service.com. We have a bunch of blogs and a bunch of videos that could help them become better writers, including things such as, are you doing conflict checks on your content, because there are times where you might need to do that. So really, ways for them to learn about being effective content marketers at their firms. And my email is Wayne@lawfirmeditorialservice.com. I'm happy to talk to anybody about their plans or their ideas for content. I do not ask for any credit card numbers after any phone calls. So don't worry about that. But I do. I do believe that society benefits when lawyers put their knowledge out there for the world to consume, and even people who might not hire that lawyer for them to understand what legal rights are, and and the status of the law. regarding a certain issue. I think society benefits so I'm all for helping lawyers write better, more clearly, in a way that obviously helps them build a book of business. But oh, by the way, benefits society, too.
Steve Fretzin 29:11
Yeah, it's a win win win. You know, I'm obviously a huge proponent of content, you know, three books writing for the Chicago daily law bulletin, constantly blogging, social media posting. And it does work, guys. I mean, I'm not saying it's the be all end all for every single situation or person, but you know, content is king, and quality content even more so. So it's not just a situation where we can just sit back and not do business development, not produce content, and just expect that we're going to have this long term sustainable law practice, like it's the 80s or the 90s. Times are changing, and everything's going in a different direction. So we've got to stay on top of these things. And I think, Wayne, you've been terrific to share your knowledge and expertise with my audience. I just want to thank you again for coming on the show and in being so gracious.
Wayne Pollock 29:57
Thank you, Steve. Absolutely. I really very much Appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin 30:00
Wonderful, wonderful. Hey everybody, you know this is just another opportunity to write down some notes and scroll down some things that you can take away from a show like this and helps you you know to be that lawyer someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. If you like the show and you like, it's helping you with your law practice. You know, please make sure that you're sharing it liking it on social media, make sure that you're subscribing to our channels, writing good reviews, it's only going to help you and other lawyers to be a stronger audience and continue the momentum. So and I appreciate it. So thanks, everybody. Listen, have a great day, and we'll talk to you again soon take care.
Narrator 30:41
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.