BE THAT LAWYER

Terry Isner: Boundless Culture for Law Firms

Episode Notes

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Terry Isner discuss:

 

Key Takeaways:

 


"The thing that we have to start to understand is really the culture’s behavior. The idea of that is, if there are certain behaviors in which our client expect of us or which we wish to put in place - why we do what we do - that begins to create that culture." —  Terry Isner


 

Connect with Terry Isner:  

Website: jaffepr.com

Email: tisner@jaffepr.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sharingtmi

Twitter: twitter.com/sharingtmi

Instagram: instagram.com/sharingtmi


 

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

 

 

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

 

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

Episode Transcription

Terry Isner  0:00  

You know, I think the first thing they can do is just accept the fact that culture has to be identified recognize that it lies within management, HR and marketing. That's critical, because not one group can do this alone identify the hard issues, but them in a column, identify the common issues that seemed to be the success, right. So let's lead with those comments.

 

Narrator  0:26  

You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!

 

Steve Fretzin  0:48  

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And as the announcer mentioned, and I hope that you're having a wonderful day today, if this is your first time listening to this show, it's all about helping lawyers grow their law practices. And so I bring on amazing guests with great insights. And if you can take one or two or three things away from each show, then you are on the money, literally and figuratively. I will also say that fritzing does two things we focus exclusively on helping lawyers with their business development efforts. We're not marketing experts, when our PR experts, we just do business development, how do you take your own efforts go out and get the business. And then we also run peer advisory mastermind groups where we help attorneys that want to be accountable, and they want to have a team around them so they don't feel so stuck and alone. We put them in these groups, and then we facilitate roundtable discussions and help them stay sustainable in their law practices. And that's really what we do. So what I tried to do is bring guests on the show that are experts in areas that I'm not and I've got a doozy for you today. Mr. Terry Isner, who is the CEO of Jaffe, and he's going to tell you all about it. How are you doing there, Terry?

 

Terry Isner  1:55  

Doing great, Steve, how are you doing today?

 

Steve Fretzin  1:58  

You know, I'm having a great day. Everything is lining up. And it's Friday. So you know, I'm looking for the weekend. It's my wife's birthday, we're going to go actually, we're going to a wine and paint deal where we go when I guess we get a couple hours of tutelage on painting. And I think we might have a couple glasses of wine.

 

Terry Isner  2:13  

Nice. Yeah, I've seen those around. And they're a lot of fun. So all you got to do is just have that first glass and then go for the paint.

 

Steve Fretzin  2:20  

That's it in that order. Okay, yeah, exactly. I am with you. I'm with you. Would you do me a favor? Just give my audience a little background on yourself? Because quite an amazing background?

 

Terry Isner  2:29  

Yes, sure. So I am the owner and CEO of Jaffe, we're a full service marketing, branding and PR agency, exclusively for the legal community. So you know, our job is to really help the lawyers, the law firms, you know, new associates, students coming in, and even those consultants and other professional entities that are working with the law firm, since we understand them so much, a lot of them come to us, and help, you know, for their brand and marketing needs. Jaffe has been doing this for 42 years now. And if you think about the 42 years ago, lawyers and law firms were given the okay to actually begin marketing. So we'd like to think that we wrote the book on it, or at least we've been along with the journey and helping with a few of the chapters. So Jaffe, it being a full service agency, it really allows us to look at the the the ideas of marketing and or PR or anything in relation to that business development in a more integrated way. Because we have it all under one roof. So somebody might come to us and say, Hey, I'm interested in a press release. And once we figure out what the goal is, hey, a press release wasn't at all what you were looking for. But that really allows us to better understand the client and the client goal, and then apply different tactics in order to reach that whether they're traditional, or more of the more modern digital type, you know, way channels and ways that we're communicating today.

 

Steve Fretzin  3:53  

That sounds like diagnosis first prescription later, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. So it's funny, some people want to go right to the prescription. It's like, you know, I don't think you'd walk into a doctor's office and start telling the doctor what to prescribe. Maybe you would tell the doctor what to prescribe before he's asked a question, or she's taken an X ray. So before we get into the meat and potatoes, how you help law firms, I would love for you to share something that maybe people don't know about you that's different and interesting. I think that's always kind of fun to talk about.

 

Terry Isner  4:21  

Sure. Well, it's it's actually a combination of what I do professionally into my personal world. So I'm a painter, an artist. And so I love brands, all my life, you know, watching cartoons, and I love superheroes. And so you know, growing up watching superfriends and, you know, watching these cartoons in the morning, there's always a commercial that interrupts it and that commercials usually selling something that I want as a kid. But the fact is, I've learned to understand and appreciate interruptions even in comic books, when you're turning the page. And so the advertising world you know, hostess really became attached to Superman and Batman in my world. So I started To realize that as a painter, I wanted to kind of smash up and mash up all kinds of different things that we deal with. And so I use old vintage comic books as my canvas, which would you know, make most comic book folks cringe because I'm tearing the page out, you know, and they've gotten their perfect little, clear cellophane. But the fact is, these stories are unbelievable, these writers tackled the same cultural and social issues that we're dealing with today. And they were, you know, brave enough to write these stories and deal with the same issues of diversity and prejudices, and all other things that come at them. And they wrote these in these stories. And so when you look back, these stories deserve to be are more so than, you know, protected in a cellophane bag. So I like to really showcase the artist and the storytellers and try to tell my own story with the characters and then incorporate them with other brands. So if it's a painting of say, The Little Mermaid or Aqua man, then I'll use Starbucks or something along that way. So I have a lot of fun. I live in a small beach town or hope it's in Rehoboth Delaware, Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, and become a little bit more famous most recently, because it's some some big guy in the white house there. But every year, I get to have an art show here in town, and I sell out, which is really quite wonderful. So I love it. I love the town. And I love being able to create fun stories that people want to put on their walls.

 

Steve Fretzin  6:27  

Yeah, really cool. Fascinating. I was telling you, I was stalking you a little bit on Facebook. And I identified some things that I found interesting. I'm a bit of a superhero and sci fi geek myself. And so you know, if I say super twins prowers activate. Yeah, I mean, that's it right there. Right. So people are going, What are they talking about? Yeah. And other people are right there with us? I don't know. But really fun stuff. So let's flip the switch a little bit. And let's get into the nitty gritty of the topic for today, which I really like what have you share a little bit about branding and how it impacts law firm culture. And one thing that I'd like to start with is what is your take on the current state of law firms and their cultures? And, you know, just generally, what are you seeing out there? And maybe what are some of the things that they're challenged by, or that they haven't really flipped the switch themselves on?

 

Terry Isner  7:14  

So first off, the big positive here is everybody has woken up and right there, we are aware of the importance of the culture. And the COVID pandemic shutdown was, I think the the eye opener for all of us, I've been talking about culture for years. That's my soapbox, and the importance of it. And I'm slowly watching in the law firm communities that there are these cultural directors, these, you know, culture officers, and there's people are really understanding the focus. And culture lies in this really interesting spot between management, HR, and marketing. And it's really the three of them that have to kind of understand, foster manipulate, you know, the culture is needed. And the big thing that we have to remember, because a lot of people are like, what is this whole culture thing, you know, I don't really understand it, I don't see it, I don't feel it. And I think the thing that we have to, you know, start to understand is really the cultures behavior. And the idea of that is, if there are certain behaviors in which our client expected was or which we wish to put in place, you know, we look at that kind of as the why we do what we do, that begins to create that culture. And a lot of people have said, Well, isn't the culture all messed up now, because of the the COVID pandemic, and the fact that we're all at home. And from my perspective, you know, culture doesn't have any boundaries, you know, if we believe in it, and if we have a set of behaviors in place, then that culture really is boundless, you can maintain that culture and these, you know, different work dynamics in which we've now experienced. So for me, the culture really sets the the kind of moral compass of what we do, why are we doing that? And how am I going to go about doing that? And I think then you have to ask, am I doing that for me? Or am I doing that for a greater cause? And a lot of times when I go in, and I sit down with the law firm, or the lawyer, I asked one very hard question. And to me, it's not a hard question to ask, do you want to get rich? Or do you want to build a legacy? Because I can do both. But I really, that's going to determine what our path is what our plan would be. And so the culture plays a lot in that because who you are and what you believe, and how you act back to that culture, then it feeds that into the brand.

 

Steve Fretzin  9:39  

Question is, how often do they say both?

 

Terry Isner  9:44  

You can have both by simply understanding, and so the culture is what fosters anything and everything that happens, you know, within the confines of the culture, which doesn't exist. You know, as long as you're all you know, operating and communicating. That's the other part of this. Okay, a lot of you say, I don't know what my culture is what you do. And a lot of times, your culture created other things you don't like, like a reactive marketing program, or something because of your type of aggressive culture, you're not letting say, marketers do their job, you're dictating it, guess what, you've just created a reactive marketing program. So it's little things like you don't really realize it. But when you step back, and maybe somebody from my perspective, who will do a culture audit, and a brand audit says, the problem is you you've created this, this culture, and now you have to write that by changing behaviors.

 

Steve Fretzin  10:36  

Yeah, and I like that you're talking about behaviors and actions and how they intertwine or how they're dictating the culture. So, you know, I do a lot of I don't know if you're familiar with disc testing, but I'm a been a distributor for TTI for 1520 years, and I do you know, 1000s of disc assessments a year, and I have to review them. And I have to explain to people what they all mean. And for those listening disc is an acronym for dominant, influencing steadiness and compliance. And those are different behavior styles that people have attributes. And above the line being a dominant style below the line being a negative or a weaker style. And so it gives you all this information about people's behaviors, and people are built differently. So how do you take someone that maybe has a real aggressive style or a real dominant behavior and the ego that goes with it? And how do you get them to see the light that maybe it isn't about him or her? It's about, you know, the cause? Or about the business or the practice? And what that all means? How do you get through a thick skull?

 

Terry Isner  11:34  

So that's really that is? That's probably the best question, because that's what's happened again, in this last year. And so leaders can say, Okay, I've got problem attorneys, I can now I can address this, because there's a change in the change, I can address on a lot of things. There are non performers, you know, there are practice areas that just didn't, you know, get the traction in which they needed, there was a great opportunity, and still is I, you know, I think this is more like, you know, the accordion here, we've, you know, we're going to get these waves. And so we've seen waves of layoffs, we've seen late Waves of Change. So I think that leadership has to step back again and say, What is the culture of our firm? And what does that culture represent? And who would be attracted to that culture. Now, if I've got one bad apple over here, that makes me good money, but it's upsetting my culture. That's a management issue and problem to deal with. But the beauty is, we've exposed it now culture has that seat at the table. So we can talk about these more softer things. You know, I just did a program the other day, you know that words have weight, and it talks about how you can destroy collaboration so fast, by you know, shooting an email that says, I don't have time for this right now, or I don't have any clue what you're talking about. And little things that we get and do because we're in a hurry, that we think are not offensive could absolutely destroy a culture. So I think you have to weigh the factor and say, Where are they in their career, right? Is this a generational thing, which we have to look at, because the new generations are dictating, really what leaders have to look at, in writing the culture, because they have to be attractive to millennials, and Gen Z, and Gen Z now. And so you're talking about in a lot of cases, and I think we see some of the more aggressive egos to be in a bit of our older lawyers, because of what they've gone through to build their book of business. You know, it's and they didn't have the tools and they didn't have the, the mentality we have today, but the world has changed, and, and all industries, but law firms in particular, have to become more empathetic, and have to become more connected at the people level, and less at the profit level. So that's been exposed, I think, and that's where culture is going to shift. But you know, the struggle is stepping back and saying, I have to make this big change. And that's where we're sitting back now and watch it. It's like, it's all exposed, you know, people are saying, My firm stepped up to the plate, I'm never gonna leave this firm because of how they handled COVID. Or I'm absolutely so upset at the way that they handled the COVID situation, and I need to go somewhere else where I'm going to be more respected, you know, so dynamics have changed for all of us. So therefore, culture has changed, and we have to recognize that.

 

Steve Fretzin  14:41  

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I'm in the middle of a lot of this in, you know, being a business development coach, mainly working with attorneys. I'm not really working with law firms anymore, but I have to hear from the attorneys what their culture is and what is wrong with it or what's going on internally. And I just I try to be empathetic and understanding and you know, In some cases, they're going to just deal with it in their own way. And other times they're going to take their ball and go home if things don't change. So I'm dealing with this all the time. And so what are a couple of tips for law firm leaders that might be listening or that maybe they'll someone will force this to them, if they have the courage to do so that they should be doing maybe two or three tips that, you know, hey, listen, now that this has been exposed, and now everything's out in the open, what are a couple things they could be doing to try to make a step towards the right culture towards a better culture?

 

Terry Isner  15:32  

You know, I think the first thing they can do is just accept the fact that culture has to be identified, recognize that it lies within management, HR, and marketing, that's critical, because not one group can do this alone, identify the hard issues, but I'm going to call them identify the common issues that seem to be this excess, right? So let's lead with those common, what are they saying internally? What do we think, you know, from our subjective opinion, internally of who we are in our culture, but more importantly, those that are experienced in us from the external audience, right? The client, the potential, new hire, the communities in which we work with, get that data, because that data is going to help make this less emotional and less personal. And that's where this has to change. We are in a situation where I believe the format of an equity partner and the compensation programs are one of the problem, you eliminate those, you go to a business based C level structure, run the law firm, like a business. And a lot of these problems go away. I mean, they just dissolve away. And we are operating from culture and brand dynamics that are focused on being successful and partnering with our clients, looking and collaboratively working with our teams and people. And now everybody's happy. And everybody's working together, everybody wants to work together, and people are working at home and people are working in the office. The problem is we're not, we still are not willing to say this is what it is. And what you're going to do is get back into a boardroom. And you're going to start to let the personal relationships and that fraternity, like mentality fall back into place, and you're not going to get rid of the problems and you're not going to focus on the positive of the culture. That's my worry, the firm's right now that are truly focusing on revamping their culture, and identifying their brand. So they can use it in the proper way, you know, as as a revenue based intellectual property, then that's when I'm really starting to see this this great shift. But let's go back to what you said, you know, you focus on the lawyer, that's what this is all about. It's not even about the law firm. So all these law firms, people are moving and changing and and COVID created a dynamic for people to move and change and to question what they want to do. So let's go back to the fact that this is really about the law, the lawyer because the lawyer creates the relationship, that lawyer leaves that relationship 90% of the time goes with him. So now what we have to say is I want to create a business that attracts like minded people that we can grow together with and collectively, you know, have greater, you know, revenue, greater compensation packages. So I think the focus now goes to the individual. And what I've said, it's like a real estate market. And so you have the, the buyers market, and you have the seller's market, we're in a market where I believe talent has all the power in the world, because they can look at and scrutinize your brand, and your culture, you know, the entrepreneurial structure, the type of team dynamics, diversity, all these things that matter, corporate social responsibility. So you as an individual lawyer, from my perspective, that's where your head needs to get. Where am I as a community leader? Where Why am I even practicing law? What's my why, which is my heart, you know, why am I doing this? And how do I want people to think of me as a lawyer and to talk of me when I'm not in the room, then you find the law firm that fits that and everybody else is operating on it. That's my idea. My ideas, go back to you. And let's focus on all the individuals lawyers first, and then let them find their their herd mentalities and where they belong. And that's the culture that will work for them. And that will be a thriving successful culture.

 

Steve Fretzin  19:36  

Yeah, that's really, really interesting and spot on. The other thing that I don't think law firms think about too much, because they're always worried about paying a recruiting fee. You know, whatever recruiter, oh, my God, it's so much money. They don't recognize what the cost is of the turnover. I mean, you've got, you know, the salary, you've got the training, you've got the clients that they might pick up and take with, I mean, it goes on the list goes on. So how do they use culture as a way of not only bringing in the right people, but then may in retaining them? I know, I'm assuming, to your point that compensation is a big part of that. But what are some other things that would help law firms realize the importance of that retention these days?

 

Terry Isner  20:16  

Well, I think, again, generational, if we look at the makeup of the workplace in the next three years, 72% of millennials, okay, we know the characteristic and the dynamics of a millennial. So if that's your workforce, and you haven't made that adjustment, you already have a problem. If you're not communicating to them, and you haven't accepted the fact also, that the person buying your services is most likely now a millennial. So again, if you're not making those shifts, you're not relevant. So we're at a pivotal point, I think that if you want to be relevant change must happen now. So now, if you start to say, why am I losing my associates? Or why am I losing a certain sector, we have to go back and say, What part of our culture or what part of the world today is affecting this group? So these are a lot of questions, we have to look at the data exists. So we just have to feel comfortable to look at our data or ask a third party to maybe do some inquiries for us. So we have some of that, you know, data. And again, it's not that emotional, it's real, real professional data that I can use. So think about retention from exactly that. I want to build a culture that attracts ex attorneys for because our focus is to change the personal injury world, and to make sure that everybody, you know, is vindicated and has a champion in their court, you know, because it wasn't their fault, they got hit by that truck that day, you know, whatever the case is the why right? Why do I emotionally go out every day and do this, or I wake up every day, because I want to help somebody create something that's fabulous, it's going to change somebody else's life? Well, if you get up and think that way, and go to work in that culture, you're not going to leave that culture, right? If you're there for him during pandemics when their children are born, you know, when you help them change their course of their career, when you actually step up to the plate as a law firm, and offer the tools they need to learn how to market to learn how to be business development, to be more empathetic, to lead teams to be open to collaborative thinking, we have to all be taught this. And we also have to be reminded of this, you know, along the process. So retention to me would be easy. If you step back and said I'm building this culture, I'm attracting those that like this culture, therefore, I'm going to hold them. And I'm certainly saving a lot of money. And I'm building a culture that's going to, you know, create a dynamic in which all ships rise with the tide, because we're doing this collectively. So let's go down the list of things that matter, diversity and inclusion, collaborative thinking, corporate social responsibilities, again, a working dynamic culture that offers me entrepreneurial and support, and work and at home life balance. That's not what was the law firm format, you know, for anybody outside of this millennial and Gen Z world, but that's where we are. So if you don't make that shift, as a lawyer, not even the law firm, even as a lawyer, again, you're not going to be relevant. So you have to think about where the world is now. And then how do we shift back into that? If lawyers didn't play the emotion card, now it's time to play the emotion card. Because emotional marketing is where the connections made, if you think about every decision we make, or 99% of the decisions we make are based on an emotional reaction, you take that away, you're just another lawyer, which is a diamond doesn't. So make that emotional connection. And that's why I think this whole idea of hitting reset this year, applies to all of us, step back, who do I want to be as a lawyer? Now, how do I get there, and that's where people like you come into play, and people like us come into play. And you talked about the dynamic of personality, I stepped back and look at business development, from a totally different perspective, actually, probably the same one, you did actually change that. And that is they fail, because we don't get to know the lawyer, and we try to put them in a cookie cutter formula, you know, this is what you do. You got column A, B, and C move from C to B to A. But if you get to know the person, and you figure what makes them tick, then you find how they're going to be successful as a BD person in business development. And they thrive because they're not doing something they're afraid of every single day that you forced them to do and you're going to check up on them in three weeks.

 

Steve Fretzin  24:43  

Yeah, and the saying used to be treat people the way you want to be treated and I've changed it to treat people the way they want to be treated that because not right, someone that's a very dominant type of person. They're going to want to be treated a certain way, whether that's a little ego boost or something that that allows them to leave Like they're in control or in charge, and then some other person who's you know, completely analytical and introverted. You know, that's going to be a lot of friction between those two people, unless they understand each other, right? They understand each other's behaviors, understand each other's personalities. And putting that out front sometimes is huge and solving problems before they escalate.

 

Terry Isner  25:20  

Know your audience. That's what we say constantly. And that's, that's it in every day, every single thing we do, if you know the person, you can work with that personality, and then you have to work back on yourself. You can't take their reactions to your empathetic, honest, supportive advice. If they choose it, and they don't like it that's on them. And then so it says, you have to kind of build the idea of how I want to, to foster and create relationships. And that's really what this all comes back to. It's no longer about sales. It's only about relationship, because that relationship might never ever, ever hire you. But they're going to send three other people that just hired you. So relationships to me is what this whole reset goes back to who am I? How am I going back out to market? How will I differentiate, differentiate myself within doing that? How will I align myself with a bigger entity if needed? And how am I going to create and foster relationships? I think that's our ultimate goal today.

 

Steve Fretzin  26:25  

Yeah, that's really great. And Terry, you're like, culture expert, media, PR expert artist, and then therapists, like I'm picking up a therapist vibe. And that's got to be right, both of us, right? top, we have to have that at dealing with lawyers or law firms. Right? Do we have to have that ability to understand, you know, something that maybe most people don't understand.

 

Terry Isner  26:45  

They're brilliant people. And we, you know, they really, and they're fun, and they're great. They're very rigid, that, you know, creates this dynamic. And I just want to shake them and loosen them up and be like, yeah, you're cool.

 

Steve Fretzin  26:56  

Yeah, we have to do that. I think we have to, if you can get them laughing, if you can get, you know, just they all have great sense of humor, most of them do have great sense of humor, and they want to improve, they want to change and adapt and grow. And I think it's just it's just hard sometimes, because they get they get, you know, stuck in the quicksand with their law firms existing culture. And it's the way it's always been. And it's just again, you know, with technology, and with what you're talking about today, with the culture and the branding and the shifts, it's adapt or die. And I don't think there's much choice anymore.

 

Terry Isner  27:25  

No, you know, and I think the last tip that I would give, can you just hit this is, you simply have to be confident and being you, regardless of the person you are, if you just are you, it becomes so authentic, that then people can relate. But if you go in and you're trying to be something else, I'm trying to be the litigator, don't make the connection first. And a quick story on that is, you know, I go in to the law firm, rooms filled, you know, with the executive committee, everybody's got their phone, you know, it's marketing, really, guys, you know, I'm in here, I'm gonna listen. And most of them sit with the phone down in their head down, and they're listening to me. And when I realized this, and and I need to get their attention, I usually take my jacket off, and I roll my sleeves up, because I have full arm tattoos. Yeah, nice. And all of a sudden, the creative guy just got creative in front of us, because nobody else around the table has sleeve tattoos, and are they competent enough to roll their sleeves up in the middle of the meeting, phone start to go down, the room church starts to change, because now they're interested in the creative part of me, then it actually starts a dialogue. And what are those, I'm a scuba diver. And this is my journal. And when I see something, I go back, and I have it tattooed, and I can tell you where I scuba dive, and then all of a sudden, there's no food, there's no phones, you know, and hands, and everybody's engaged, and I can finish the presentation. And they really value you know, what I've brought to the table. Again, know your audience, right? And it might be so confident in yourself, that you can be you, you know, and that's would be my biggest advice in the idea of brand and culture. The culture is that why Who am I that real that? What do I want to accomplish? And what do I want to leave behind? And the brand is how I'm going to do that. And so that's what we have to be confident in. And that's what I would advise anybody listening to the programs. This isn't about the law firm. This is about the lawyer 100%. And branding and culture are an individual thing as much as they are a collective thing, if not even more important, because you have to be you in order to fit within that other organization.

 

Steve Fretzin  29:41  

Yeah. Well, Terry, absolutely brilliant. And this has been just an amazing, amazing experience to sit here with you and listen to your wisdom. And I appreciate so much for sharing that with my audience. And if people want to get in touch with you to talk about their own behaviors or their firm or anything, how do they get in touch with you whether you're digits?

 

Terry Isner  29:57  

Well listen, you can find me on any of the social media channels @SharingTMI, my initials are TMI. I was really lucky to grab that handle. So you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Instagram. You can find me on Twitter. Or you can reach me at tisner@jaffepr.com or visit us at Jaffepr.com, which we have lots of resources about everything we do, and anything that could help you all and help the lawyers succeed for sure.

 

Steve Fretzin  30:26  

Yeah, you've got a really good brand in the marketplace here in Chicago in particular, I've been kind of following you guys for years. Thanks again for being on the show. And listen, everybody, thank you for listening. And again, if you didn't get a couple takeaways from Terry, man, you're sleeping, don't sleep when you're listening to the show. Well, number one, and please, you know, just remember that it's all about your behaviors, your actions and how you're going to improve your career and you get you know, one shot at this thing to do the right things. And so take advantage and again, if you can work to be that lawyer, someone that's you know, organized, confident, skilled Rainmaker. That's really the key these days. So listen, take care, be safe, and stay tuned.

 

Narrator  31:07  

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for drilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frets and.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.