In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Steve Seckler discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"The best subjects for coaching are the people that have the most potential." — Steve Seckler
Connect with Steve Seckler:
Twitter: @stephenseckler
Website: CounselToCounsel.com
Show: Counsel to Counsel with Stephen Seckler, Esq.
LinkedIn: Stephen Seckler
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Steve Seckler 0:00
I think the challenges that lawyers face are similar in terms of their careers as they are in terms of trying to build the law practice. Lawyers are a conservative group of people and changes. You know, it's difficult for a lot of lawyers. So while many of the lawyers I speak to are not 100% happy at the firms where they work, it's hard for many of them to contemplate change.
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:47
Hello, everybody. My name is Steve Fretzin and and welcome to be that lawyer, show that helps us work through business development, marketing, branding, technology, best practices as lawyers trying to get ahead. My background, if you're curious about it is I am not a lawyer. And I never thought I'd work with lawyers, quite frankly, I was pulled into this after working primarily with entrepreneurs and sales teams, and the recession hit in 2008. And that's how I got drawn into working in the legal space. And it absolutely fit me to a tee. I work with some of the brightest, most interesting, fun people. And I get to spend my whole day telling lawyers what to do. So how could that be a bad thing? I'm not even a judge. So in addition to that, I've written three books on legal marketing and business development and networking. They're all available on Amazon. If you type in my name, Steve Fretzin, and obviously my website is frets and calm if you're interested in checking out blogs, or articles or other content. So enough about me, I want to introduce a terrific guest today in Steve Seckler. He's the president of secular legal recruiting and coaching. He's also the host of his own podcast show called counsel to counsel. Welcome, Steve.
Steve Seckler 1:59
Thanks so much for having me, Steve. I really appreciate it. I've really been enjoying getting to know you. And it was great having you on my podcast a couple of weeks ago, and I really learned a lot.
Steve Fretzin 2:07
Yeah, well, I appreciate it. And and we're gonna reciprocate on that right now when I get to hear your tips and tricks and ideas and all that fun stuff, as well. And I'm just been enjoying sending around the podcasts that we did together on your show to, you know, providers members, and and just to my network in general, and the response has been really positive. So kudos to you. Great. Yeah. So would you mind giving our, our listeners a Reader's Digest version story behind, you know, you're an attorney and how you got into doing what you do?
Steve Seckler 2:38
Okay, well, so I went to law school thinking it was going to change the world. And in college, I was very active in various nonprofit organizations. But in law school, I began to realize that I was much more interested in helping people one at a time. Also at Northeastern University, I had four different cop experiences. But after working at a law firm at the US Attorney's Office, where By the way, Bob Muller was the US Attorney, the Public Defender's Office and the Boston University Office of General Counsel, I realized that I didn't really want to practice law. So for the last 20 years, I've been doing a combination of recruiting and coaching, and recruit partners, associates and in House Counsel for law firms and Life Sciences companies. I also coach lawyers on career issues and like you on how to build a law practice. I've worked for two search firms, but I'm now on my third and final iteration of working for myself, and I'm calling it Steve Sackler. 3.0.
Steve Fretzin 3:28
Nice. Well, you got to keep reinventing yourself. I think that's a part of being an entrepreneur.
Steve Seckler 3:33
Absolutely.
Steve Fretzin 3:34
Yeah. So just as an aside, is there something fun or interesting about you that not many people know that you'd be willing to share?
Steve Seckler 3:42
Sure. Well, I really liked that question. When most of us meet other professionals, we focus on the services, we provide our professional affiliation, what we're working on. And as you know, people connect around shared interests, experiences and world outlook. So here's something that many people don't know about me, I play guitar, and I really enjoy coming up with parody lyrics. And I don't have any hits like weird owl, but I certainly do my job at annoying my friends and family.
Steve Fretzin 4:09
Yeah, but that's a great skill to be able to take someone else's song and make it your own and funny or interesting or different. Is there a particular song that you that you parodied that you that you really think is terrific, or?
Steve Seckler 4:23
Well, I'm very proud of my version of the rising which is Bruce Springsteen song after 2001 after the 911 incident, he wrote this great song this great album, and I decided that Verizon should take that song and turn it into Sign up now for Verizon. But nobody I've ever met ever liked it so..
Steve Fretzin 4:45
Yeah, so it didn't it didn't take off the way he had intended. They didn't stuck.
Steve Seckler 4:49
Okay, well, let's let's i don't i don't think i don't think Bruce Springsteen would have sold the rights.
Steve Fretzin 4:53
No, no, he's he's probably pretty tight with that stuff. Well, very good. Very good. Let's well let's dive into the the meat and potatoes here. So share a little bit what inspired you to to get into recruiting and coaching and in focusing on the areas that you that you're focusing on?
Steve Seckler 5:09
Sure. Well, I, I knew that practicing law was not for me, after being in law school, but I really enjoyed the law. And I like being around lawyers. You know, lawyers are smart, they know how to follow through on processes and procedures, but they're not taught the art of selling. And I'm not a natural born salesperson. My joke is that my autobiography will be called Birth of a salesman. My father was a math professor, and my mother was a school psychologist. And what was valued in our house was hard work and academic achievement. My father thought that business people were operators. And what I've come to realize is that selling professional services can actually be fun. And it's really all about building relationships and learning about other people. And it's also about finding ways to be helpful. And I like working with lawyers, because I understand the challenges they face, and I've overcome them myself.
Steve Fretzin 5:58
You know, you said something interesting that business development can be fun. And I don't know many attorneys that would agree with that. What about business development is fun.
Steve Seckler 6:08
If you're an inquisitive person, if you're just naturally interested in other people, selling Legal Services is not about doing a hard sell. It's really about learning about people's concerns, and getting to know them over time. And a high pressured sales approach doesn't really work in selling professional services. So the reason why I find it fun is because I really am interested in other people, I, I did a blog post, I'm not interested at all in sports, I know that you are, then I did a blog post that said, If you can't be a sports fan, be a sports fan fan. And what I meant by that is I love actually asking people about their interests. So while I'm not that interested in the Boston Red Sox with the New England Patriots, I really enjoy asking the question, you know, or saying something like some game last night, and then letting them go off and waxing about what they thought went well and didn't go well for their favorite team. So just being interested in other people is the way that you really get to know people, and it's a great way to sell professional services.
Steve Fretzin 7:08
Yeah, and I agree. And I also found that when lawyers can go through some type of training, coaching education about what sales really is, and how it should be performed, you know, you talk about things like relationships, and you talk about questioning and listening and understanding, and just getting to know someone and understanding their problems. And, and that's really what sales has become, I have a book called sales, free selling, and it really addresses that exact point. But I think what happens is it ends up making it fun, because you're not pressured to clothes, you're not pressured to sell or pitch. It's really more about the journey. And and just walking someone through a buying decision to see if there's a good fit. Is that is that in line with what you're thinking?
Steve Seckler 7:56
Absolutely. But I know from reading your books and listening to you that it's also important to move the conversation in a direction that you want it to go. So it's not just about listening and getting to know that somebody likes Weird Al Yankovic. It also is about learning about what their professional or their business needs are, so that you could try to address them or finding out who they might know who they can introduce you to and vice versa. So it is somewhat more strategic than normal relationship building.
Steve Fretzin 8:27
Yeah, so I agree. And again, I think lawyers are really not done as a proper service, whether it's in law school, or right there, even at their law firm at the law firm level, where they're not just not learning these skills, the way they might learn how to perform in a courtroom, or how to how to edit a doc or or or do research. So I think I think it is something that's a learned skill. And in and I think it's an important one, obviously, is, as books continue to drive, how someone would say they're successful in being a practicing attorney, versus just being, again, a great attorney, which is obviously the most important thing. And then maybe second to that would be, you know, are they a business generator? Because the lights don't stay on without it?
Steve Seckler 9:08
I agree.
Steve Fretzin 9:09
Yeah. So let me ask you this with regards to legal recruiting, because I know you do recruiting and coaching, what types of challenges and issues are lawyers having maybe we could say right now and we're in the middle, this pandemic and finding a new gig or trying to get inserted into a into a GC role.
Steve Seckler 9:26
I think the challenges that lawyers face are similar in terms of their careers as, as they are in terms of trying to build the law practice. Lawyers are a conservative group of people and changes, you know, it's difficult for a lot of lawyers. So while many of the lawyers I speak to are not 100% happy at the firms where they work, it's hard for many of them to contemplate change. So a common refrain I hear is that they don't think a lateral move makes sense, because it wouldn't be any different even though they've already articulate that they don't like the partner they work with. They're not really getting the kind of work they do. They're working The kind of hours they don't really feel like they should be working, they're not getting the professional development opportunities they want. The challenge I face as a recruiter is finding ways that they can increase their career satisfaction and success. So that could be an opportunity to work with more interesting clients or a chance to have a better platform to go and practice. So one thing I really enjoy doing is helping associates at large law firms to move to smaller firms. That's not all I do. But I really enjoyed doing that. Because these are firms where they may actually have a chance to build a practice because their bill rate will be lower. And they may have more time to at their disposal to do things that they need to do to market more effectively. And they may be encouraged when you're at a big law firm, by the time you're a fifth or sixth year associate, your bill rate is so high, and you're working so many hours, that you're practically printing money for the firm. And you're not really being given a lot of encouragement, generally speaking to get out and do the things that you would need to do to become a partner. partners are a challenge, because if they have a practice, there's a certain amount of administrative headache and moving clients to a new firm. And there's also some uncertainty about which clients might join the partner. And then of course, there's the devil, you know, versus the devil, you don't know. So I work with a partner recently who's an equity partner at his firm. And his current firm really is not a good fit for him, because they just don't do the kind of work that he does. And there's no opportunity for him to cross sell. And he's also not really that happy with the way the firm has managed. But he's reluctant to make a move to another firm right now, because most firms won't offer him equity partnership outright, they will hire him as a contract partner with a path to equity partner. And right now he's not convinced that he wants to lose the title and the chance to have a seat at the table. And he's a little bit risk averse, although I think he may change on that. But I think overall, it's the conservatism of lawyers, that is the hardest thing for me to deal with in trying to help people find more criticize satisfaction through a lateral move.
Steve Fretzin 11:55
Is there also something to be said about an equity, someone moving from an equity role to another firm, where they have a couple million dollars in business versus someone who's just built a very nice reputation. I mean, again, there's there's lawyers that have an expertise in their area. and due to that, and taking good care of clients have made equity partner at their law firm, it had nothing to do with them, bringing in business, it just was, they wanted to keep the clients happy. They wanted to make sure the lawyer was happy, they offered an equity position, lawyer took it. And now the lawyer has to move or wants to move, but doesn't have a book of business right to bring with there's no, there's no potential lateral the same way as if that lawyer had brought in his or her own book. So I guess I'm just I'm just getting into the weeds on that.
Steve Seckler 12:42
Yeah, so So I mean, the conventional wisdom is that if you don't have a book of business, it's pretty hard to make a lateral move unless you happen to have a very niche II kind of expertise that affirm I really need or want like, for example, tax. But most partners who make lateral moves are moving with a book of business. That's what most law firms are willing to, to hire for. And in fact, that reflects the conservatism of most law firms. Also, not just the candidates, the law firms are risk averse as well. And they would rather bring in somebody that's a burden in the hand than somebody who might potentially be beneficial to the firm.
Steve Fretzin 13:22
Right. And I know that that's, that's very difficult pill to swallow for a lot of attorneys that have great expertise and great relationships with clients. And they're not portable in the sense they can take their, their clients with them, or that they can really move effectively if they do find themselves in an unhappy place or a place that's not beneficial to their growth. So I think, you know, it's switching titles to move to from the recruiter to the coach, what is it that you're telling lawyers, they need to look at doing to grow the book in order to then be portable or and move laterally?
Steve Seckler 13:58
Well, interestingly, sometimes, even though somebody doesn't have the origination credit for a particular client, they may be the relationship partner. And if you've been working with a client for 10 years, and you've really been the go to lawyer for that individual, and another partner in the firm is still taking credit for the origination credit. You may not actually you may actually be able to take that client with you. And in fact, sometimes people leave firms for that very reason that they know that they have the relationship, that they're not getting the origination credit. And the only way to get that originary origination credit is is to leave. But you know that that doesn't mean that a firm that is looking at them will necessarily be willing to bring them on as a partner. So I mean, I think the only solution really, is to begin the process of starting to develop your own practice.
Steve Fretzin 14:52
Right. So you know, give me one or two things that you work with attorneys on to help them I know that you do more than just help them grow their books. You're, you're focused on their happiness, you're focused on their career satisfaction, but But what are some things that maybe are more in line with advice you'd give them to help them grow their books.
Steve Seckler 15:12
I think sometimes the barrier for a lot of lawyers is very simple. They just don't even know what to do to begin to grow their their book of business, they don't have a plan, I know you're very big on coming up with a plan. So it might be kind of working out the steps that they might want to take to really start to build their visibility more through marketing. But more importantly, particularly for somebody who's been practicing for a long time, really cultivating the relationships they have, and looking for ways that they can cross sell other services to those clients, get introductions to other key strategic partners that might be able to help them that their clients may know, maybe getting involved in trade associations where they can build more relationships. So it's really a whole series of steps that I know you walk your clients through, on the coaching side. The challenges is that it's not a it's not a quick fix. If you haven't built the book of business, it's not that likely, that in three months time, suddenly you're going to be a Rainmaker. It's something you have to invest in. And it's really something that you have to expect it's going to take a few years to happen.
Steve Fretzin 16:21
Yeah, and again, I think this all starts back in law school where, you know, they should be teaching, and maybe they are in some law schools, but they should be teaching networking skills, relationship building skills. And I know they do practice management, but I don't know how deep in the weeds they get with that with that content. And then even at the law firm level, I mean, I talk with a lot of business development managers at law firms, I think it's very challenging for them to take a deep dive in and work individually with attorneys, you know, the amount of time that they need to learn these skills. So I think that makes you an AI incredibly valuable in our ability to spend time with lawyers, to educate them, and and then work with them and hold them accountable and, and help them with making improvements. Not making the same mistakes twice, if for example. But that's, that's, you know, the unfortunate truth about what what needs to happen right now is there needs to be some type of education, coaching, training, you know, reading, you know, etc, to build the skills that make business development easier, or more palatable.
Steve Seckler 17:24
Right. And then sometimes lawyers don't want to show weakness, they don't want to come to the table, they don't want to talk to people on the inside of their firm, because they don't want to let on that they really are at sea about some of these skills. So sometimes working with an outside coach is a good way to get support and encouragement and be held accountable by somebody who's not inside the law firm.
Steve Fretzin 17:49
Well, let me take it a step further. I mean, I think coaching needs to be seen as, as not weakness, but as strength. Because if you if you look at all of the successful athletes, musicians, chefs, people that have have succeeded, it's always because they have a coach or mentor someone special in their life that helped take them to another level. And so I think we really need to embrace that. And I don't know how we get the word out about that more than we have. But that's really the the thing that needs to be front and center. Because it's, it's, it's so important. And at the same time, it's it can't be seen as is, oh, I'm weeks, I must need I must need a coach. That's, that's completely backwards.
Steve Seckler 18:30
Well, in fact, as you and I know, the best people, the best subjects for coaching are the people that have the most potential. There are probably some lawyers, though there are definitely some lawyers who really are much more service partner in their orientation there. They're just not they just don't have the interest in learning how to build a practice or doing the things that one needs to do. And law firms do need some of those people. So not everybody is going to make good use of a coach. But starting the starting point, you know, is, here's something that can help you really get to the next level. If that's the path that you want to go on.
Steve Fretzin 19:08
Right. Well, let's let's transition to my final question, which is, is another thing that you focus on, and that is working with attorneys who are looking to transition out or retire? And what are some things that you work with them on? What do you tell them? How do you help the older attorneys that are? And again, I can't say an age because there I'm sure there are people that want to work through their 80s. And there's people that say, hey, it's 65, I'm getting out. So what what does that look like as far as your work with them?
Steve Seckler 19:35
When I speak to lawyers who are looking for a transition or even thinking about retiring, I try to engage them in conversation about what's motivating them, what are their underlying concerns, what are they trying to change? Some lawyers end up working with me on an ongoing basis as a coach our little learn how to build their law practice. I had a actually I had a coaching client, who was 75 years old and he wanted to grow his law practice which Little bit unusual, but but that was what he wanted to do. That was he wasn't interested in moving on, but he had found that a lot of his clientele was, you know, was had left him because he, you know, he had been in practice for so long. But anyway people are are looking to to make some kind of change. And it's useful to help them by, you know, it's useful for them to have someone to help sort through, what are their challenges, what are the roadblocks, and I'll walk them through some of that, as a coach, I will walk them through some exercises, we will get them to break it down into smaller steps, smaller pieces, and try to sort of start taking the steps that they need to either a figure out what kind of changes they want to make, or what are the steps that they need to actually affect that change. So it's really just breaking things down into digestible pieces, setting goals, having them actually implement and then holding them accountable. Something I'm doing right now is that I've launched a group for senior lawyers called the next stage. And I'm very excited about that. It's a program for senior lawyers, we're trying to figure out what comes next. And it's a combination of group workshops and one on one coaching and through this, figuring out what they really want from their lives in the next 10 to 15 years. And what are the steps they need to take in order to either further explore this or what they actually need to do to implement on their plans?
Steve Fretzin 21:26
That's really great. And again, I think just so necessary. I know, my father retired at 65. And, you know, he really didn't do a very good job of you know, how he kind of finished out his career. I think he kind of rushed it at the end. And, you know, it's not to say that he had a, you know, you know, retire broke or anything, he certainly did well, upon retirement, but I think there's a bunch of things that he probably could have done differently to to help, either with a succession plan or with some, some way of transitioning it over. But it just wasn't in wasn't in his skill sets, you know, the business side of things wasn't his wasn't a strength.
Steve Seckler 22:02
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of planning, this is not something you want to do. You know, when you're at the doorstep of retirement, it's something you want to be thinking about over time before you get there. So one of the impetus is for me to create this particular program. The next stage was several years ago, my wife and I were becoming empty nesters. And we joined the group on aging. And I mean, we didn't get the memo, because everybody else in the group was like 10 years older than us. But what I realized in participating with the group, and it was a fantastic group was that you really want to start thinking about these things long before you get there. Somebody in the group said to me, I had all these plans are what I was going to do when I retired, and I didn't do any of them. Now for this particular individual, he was very engaged in the world. And he said I did other things. So my takeaway from that was, it's time to start laying the groundwork long before you get there. And it doesn't even have to be retirement, it could be maybe somebody wants to transition out of the law, or make a big career shift in terms of the law, or go in house or whatever. But planning in advance really helps. So for me, for example, last summer, after like 35 years, I finally bought myself a really nice guitar. Because I realized if I wait until I'm not working anymore, I'm not going to be playing guitar. So I'm now practicing all the time.
Steve Fretzin 23:24
Love it. My son just has been playing guitar for almost 666 months to a year and it's just starting to get interesting. It's starting to get fun to listen to. You've been playing for your whole life.
Steve Seckler 23:34
Yeah, I've been playing since I was a teenager. But as my joke, is that like I plateaued for I don't know, give or take, I don't know. 40 years.
Steve Fretzin 23:42
Yeah. So okay.
Steve Seckler 23:45
I started, I started taking lessons and YouTube is like an infinite supply of, of lessons about everything. You can learn how to fix your drain. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. learn new languages. You know?
Steve Fretzin 23:56
Yeah, I'm all over that. I'm not a handy guy. So anything I can learn and do do quickly through a quick video, I'm on it. Well, listen, I appreciate you taking some time out of your data to be on the show and to share your advice and ideas with with my audience. And if people want to get in touch with you, or if there's something you'd like to promote, you know, now's kind of the time. How do people find you?
Steve Seckler 24:17
The best thing to do is to go to my website, which is counseltocounsel.com. That's counseltocounsel.com. I have lots of Career Resources. There. There are links to my blog. There are links to my podcast, counsel to counsel. And if anybody has questions about career transitions, marketing, making a lateral move, just want to talk about picking up the guitar after 40 years. please reach out to me I love I love hearing from people.
Steve Fretzin 24:46
They absolutely fantastic. Well, I really appreciate again, you coming on the show. Thank you so much.
Steve Seckler 24:52
Well, thank you, Steve, thank you for having me. You really you do a great job. And like I said, I've learned so much already from you and I'm Looking forward to continuing our exchanges. Because you know what's so interesting to me is that I, I'm the son of, of a math professor and I went to law school and You're the son of a lawyer, and you went into sales. And I think we've both sort of moved towards the middle in terms of understanding where the world is for selling professional services.
Steve Fretzin 25:20
Well, I'll tell you something even weirder, I took a test years ago, and it was like a job. It was a career test. It said the two things that I would be best at doing one is teaching, and the other is sales. So I'm teaching sales. I mean, go figure that that's how it all worked out. But I thought that was kind of interesting. When you take one of those personality tests or career tests, you know how things come together?
Steve Seckler 25:44
Well, you're very, you're very good at both.
Steve Fretzin 25:46
Well, it's it's been it's been a fun ride, and it's it's not going anywhere soon. So I just turned 50. So I've got plenty of time left to keep doing this. And, again, I told my son, you can have fun doing something and make money doing it and help a lot of people. Well, what's the downside? You know, there's there's absolutely no downside. So it's great. Anyway, listen, everybody that's listening. Thank you so much. I appreciate you taking some time to take in the show today. Hopefully you got some great takeaways and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care of everybody and be safe.
Narrator 26:25
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.