In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Stacey Kalamaras discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Remember, regardless of what size firm you go into, your internal partners are your clients. You need to make those people happy. If you make them happy, not only with your work product, but also with your can-do attitude, word is going to spread and everyone is going to want to work with you." — Stacey Kalamaras
Connect with Stacey Kalamaras:
Twitter: @LegalKlo
Website: klolegal.com
Email: info@klolegal.com
Phone: 708-320-2033
LinkedIn: Kalamaras Law Office, LLC & Stacey Kalamaras
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Stacey Kalamaras 0:00
But I think however it works for you just understanding how you can interact with people to understand what their problems are. And when I talk to young lawyers or law school students, that that can take different forms. If you're an excellent writer or you really like to research, write a bunch of law review articles or, or more casual articles, whatever it is that you shine at, just do more of that.
Narrator 0:31
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for drilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:54
Welcome, everyone to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And I'm happy to have you today we've got a lot to cover with our guest, Stacey Kalamaras, who is the founding partner of calamares Law Office, LLC, seasoned trademark copyright advertising attorney with over 30 years of branding experience. Stacey, how are you today?
Stacey Kalamaras 1:12
I'm great. Thanks, Steve. How are you doing?
Steve Fretzin 1:14
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. As long as we have good weather in the Coronavirus doesn't come near me. I think I'm okay. Exactly. Exactly. Well, the sun is shining. So that's not too bad. The sun is shining. So we have we've half of that, you know right now 100% of it. But we'll see. We'll see how things go. But you know, today, I really wanted to spend some time with you. My audience is primarily made up of ambitious attorneys that want to grow their books of business. You've been very successful in building your IP practice. And I wanted to get some details about that. But maybe you could give us a little bit more background on yourself your law practice, how you got into law, and how you help people.
Stacey Kalamaras 1:51
Sure, yeah, no. So my background is a little bit different, I think then then how most come to the law. So I'm a second career lawyer. My first career was as a marketing and advertising executive. And then I decided to go to law school in my mid 30s. And while a lot of people say to me, Well, gosh, that's so odd. Like what what propelled you to do that it wasn't quite as impulsive as it sounds. I grew up wanting to be an attorney, like many of us who pursue the career and the profession. But I had no idea really what kind of law I wanted to practice, which I think is very common. And like most young people, I watched a lot of legal dramas on TV and La law was one that inspired me in the 80s. And you know, you had either defense attorneys or prosecutors model there. And I thought I wanted to be a prosecutor, I thought I wanted to put bad guys away. And so I was all set. I was a poli sci major and a political theory minor. And I was all set and ready to go to law school at the tender age of 22. I had taken the outside I had applied to schools, my registration was paid for. And I was all set and ready to go to orientation that August, but I pulled the plug. And I'm really glad that I did. Because I had no idea that intellectual property was a specialty. And I started working in marketing, communications and various marketing roles. I graduated from college in December 1989. And 1990 was a recession, nowhere near as bad as what we saw in 2008 2009. So I had a hard time finding my footing. But in my mid to late 20s, I stumbled into brand management, which I had no idea what that was. And I started my brand management career at the nutrasweet company. And when I got there, my role as an entry level marketing person was to liaise between marketing, and legal and regulatory. And I found lawyers there who aren't that dissimilar to what I do now. And they were corporate lawyers who also had responsibility for intellectual property. And we worked with outside counsel at that time, it was Winston and Strawn and Steve George lags group, Steve is now retired. And I found that there were a whole bunch of people who were making a living protecting IP. And to me, that was fascinating. But I was just starting my career. So I was bright eyed and bushy tailed. And so I wanted to learn everything I could about marketing, but for me, I archived that and it was in the back of my head. So I always kind of kept that in the back of my head. And I think, you know, about 1012 years later, when I had sort of reached this crossroads in my marketing career of is this really what I want to do for the rest of my life? I decided that maybe when I was in my early 30s, that it was time to think about a switch. And it was just very natural to me to make that switch to the law with the intent to practice, intellectual property law and specifically protecting brands. So that's really how that came about.
Steve Fretzin 4:42
Gotcha, gotcha. And then of course, was there a point where you realized Wait a second, I also need to find my own clients.
Stacey Kalamaras 4:51
So that I mean, that came much more naturally for me. Not that it's not difficult because it is exceedingly difficult. But I was three months out of law school when I got my first client. And I think that that was a function of the fact of having been a very experienced business person, I had run half billion dollar brands and $50 million p&l, and I had teams of five people reporting to me on the marketing side. So I was a very experienced business person. So it wasn't that I was a great lawyer when I landed my first client, but that clients had faith in me, and I made them feel comfortable, because I understood their business. And I think that that's really important for lawyers at any stage of their career to understand and something that I impress upon young attorneys when I mentor them or teach them that, especially for what we do, as any sort of business lawyer, we're not going down to the county jail and posting, you know, bail or bond, we're not Criminal Lawyers, people's lives aren't really in the balance, we represent businesses. And while the issues are very, very important, our clients come to us with business issues. And as attorneys, our job is to use our legal expertise to solve those business issues. Our issues are not a matter of life and death. So well, of course, it's really important as a young lawyer to understand the law and to write those memos, and do all the sort of junk pooping that young lawyers need to do, it's really important to understand the practical aspects of the law, and to understand how to deliver that advice in a very practical, strategic kind of tip oriented point of view. So I could relate to my clients from a business perspective, very early on and make them feel comfortable. And then it was just relying on the partners that I worked with to give them the comfort from a legal perspective.
Steve Fretzin 6:43
Gotcha. And so so the fact that because of your background, it came so naturally to you, that certainly gave you a leg up, was there something about about developing your own business that you either enjoyed or that you found, you know, inspiring?
Stacey Kalamaras 6:58
Yeah, you know, I, I like, I like talking to people, I like understanding their stories. I like business. So I like understanding, you know, how I can help and what makes people tick. I think, you know, developing your own book is definitely something that's individual to each and every attorney and it depends on your practice area. But it's, it's hard, make no mistake about it, whether you're in a farm, or whether you have your own firm, it's definitely really difficult. And it can be, you know, very competitive and harder for some people than others. It's still it's still hard for me, it's, it's not it's not a slam dunk for me, just because I've hung up my shingle, and I have my own farm. It's something that I struggle with every day, but I do enjoy it. I like learning about people's businesses, I love talking to people, I like understanding how I can help them. And I think no matter what business that you're in, whether you're working for someone or you're working for yourself, I think it's really important to understand how you contribute and add value to the organization that you work for. So understanding how you can help contribute to the bottom line. That was always my philosophy. Even when I was a baby brand person, I always wanted to add value to my team and to my company overall. So I think that was a very natural kind of progression for me.
Steve Fretzin 8:17
Right. And I mean, I just want to expand on something that you mentioned, because it sounds like you enjoy the process, you enjoy meeting people learning about them, understanding their problems, and in dissecting them so that you can come up with, you know, with the proper solution or a creative solution. And I think what I what I'm finding is there's a lot of fear, not only about going out and getting business, but that you have to go out and try to sell or get the clothes and what I'm pulling out of what you're saying. And I guess what I'm teaching is a lawyer coaches that you can really learn to enjoy people enjoy asking questions, enjoy dissecting problems, that the clothes or the end of it may be less important, it may be more reasonable that it might just happen where the prospective client, for example, feels that you understand their problems and feel knowledgeable that they would want to hire you. And that might take the sales element or the sales concern, you know, out of the picture a little bit.
Stacey Kalamaras 9:11
Yeah, I think that's really true. I think it would be really, almost next to impossible to make any sort of sale, whether you're a professional, or you know, going to my past life where I was involved in consumer packaged goods, selling any sort of product off the grocery store shelf to anyone if you didn't understand what their problem was. And I think I think that's true. And I think for people who don't have experience in business, which most professional service providers don't they go straight from school to their respective profession and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's true. So I think and and a lot of lawyers are introverts, admittedly so and so talking to people might be fearful in and of itself, and that's okay. There's certainly room for every style. I just happened to be more of an extrovert, I have my moments where I just need solitude as well. So it's not that I'm 100% on I like my space as well. But I think however it works for you just understanding how you can interact with people to understand what their problems are. And when I talk to young lawyers or law school students, that that can take different forms, if you're an excellent writer, or you really like to research, write a bunch of law review articles or, or more casual articles, whatever it is that you shine at, just do more of that, to establish yourself as a as a as a thought leader, right? This is a term that's overused, but it's really true if you like to talk if you like to present, which is something I really enjoy doing, find venues where you can do that. And they don't have to be at the most prestigious conferences, you'll grow into that. But just find anywhere where you can do that. Can you do that at a local chamber? Can you do that in front of a law school class, can you give a CLE, whatever it is, you can do, just play to your strengths, because we all have them. But I think your point is a good one, Steve, that for me, problem solving is is kind of an off the chart strength for me, whether there actually is a problem or not, I will create a problem to solve one, that's just a real core competency for me. So when there aren't problems, that's why I'm really drawn to the law. And in my corporate environment, it's not that I would break things to fix them. But I would really look hard for processes to streamline if everything was running smoothly. So this is really a core competency of mine, I really love to solve issues, and to solve problems. So I'm really well suited for this profession.
Steve Fretzin 11:45
Yeah. And I think that that, you know, asking questions, and being a good listener, and identifying where, you know, problems exist, and how deep the rabbit hole goes, is all a part of of a good process, you know, to to build relationship and also build, you know, confidence with, with a prospective client, I think that the saying used to be, you know, you know, that, you know, go for the clothes. And today I think it really is more about relationships and being consultative and asking great questions. And, and just someone feeling understood like a client feeling like like, Wow, you really understand my problems understand my business. And I'm going to hire you because of that, not because of your fancy sales pitch, or because you did the best dog and pony show.
Stacey Kalamaras 12:29
Yeah, I agree with that. I can give you an example of that. from very early in my career, when I had transitioned to a new firm, I was a very young associate. And I was given responsibility, just kind of day to day contact responsibility over a modest sized portfolio. And it was my first week on the job. And I was maybe a second or third year lawyer. And I called this gentleman to I can't remember now it's been so many years spend more than 10 years now. And I called him because we were missing some piece of information to file one of his trademarks. And he was like, I'm so glad you called. And I'm like, awesome. Well, I'm so glad I called to. And boy, did he land to me. I mean, he was angry, really, really angry. What was he angry about? Well, no one had called him he was angry about his bill. He felt that he had been overcharged. The list went on. And on and on, it was very clear to me that there was no way I was going to be able to solve his problem. I couldn't, it was impossible. I barely knew the structure of the firm myself. But what I did is I listened, I gave him an outlet. And I reassured him that I was going to be his day to day point of contact going forward. And that while I didn't have the answer, that I would get the answer, and that I would get back to him. And he and I became really, really good, you know, friends from a sort of client attorney perspective after that. And as a matter of fact, I was just in DC, a year or so ago, and he had taken ill and I went to the hospital to see him. And he and his wife both thanked me. I mean, this is all these years later. So the relationship is still there, to your point.
Steve Fretzin 14:18
Wonderful. That's wonderful. So I think I think something I'd like to step back into is a discussion about different, I guess, buckets that lawyers can think about as it relates to how they spend their time doing business development. One thing I've observed with you, at least three, and I'm sure there's a lot more than that different buckets that you really focus on. One of them is speaking and I want to hear more about the different varieties of speaking and teaching and things that you're doing to not only brand yourself, but to educate people and all that. I know you're big on social media, I see your posts in LinkedIn regularly and you're commenting on other people's posts, you're very active. And then and also networking. I know that you're out there. networking and meeting people as well. There's probably a few other buckets that you're involved in, but maybe give us my audience and myself a little understanding of, of those focus points and how you're seeing that translate into business.
Stacey Kalamaras 15:13
Yeah, so I think those really are the three main ones. So I started my firm in January of 2018, it was actually a restart, because I initially formed my farm in 2009, when I lost my job, and I wasn't very successful at it, quite frankly, because I wasn't interested in being a farm owner, then I was a young attorney. And so I had my farm, but I really had my eye on going in house and doing other things. So I dissolved my farm in 2014, I went back to big law. And then in January 2018, I intentionally reformed my farm just so I can be accurate with the actual timing of my farm for people who know me prior to, to January 2018. But in January 2018, my intent was to get out there and meet people, obviously, I had a whole network of people from big law, but my target client was smaller and medium sized businesses, and I wanted to be the value add for my clients. And so if someone said, Hey, do you know someone that can help me with a real estate matter, it was likely that my contacts within big law wouldn't be the solution. So I knew as a solo practitioner, I needed to develop a deep bench. So I just got out there and started meeting as many lawyers who were similarly situated as me. And I find that, you know, if you just get out there and try to meet people, and a lot of people say, Yeah, but how do you do that? I don't understand what you mean, how do you do that? Well, my philosophy is just invite people to coffee, right? You don't, you don't have to spend a lot of money if you're, if you're just getting started. Or if things are bootstrapped. People like to talk about themselves, we all like to talk about themselves, we all respond to flattery. So if you just say, Look, I'm really curious to learn about what you're doing, how you did it, you know, I, I have a firm or I'm trying to start a firm, I'm wondering, you know, what have you found that worked well, for you. I mean, I just had lunch with one of the colleagues in one of the networking groups that I'm in just a few weeks ago, he's been on his own for 12 years. And I always learn something when I sit down with someone who is similarly situated to me, he's completely different. He's an estate planning attorney, but he had a very streamlined Contact Us form on his website, that was just saving him time and energy. And my contact us form wasn't saving the time. And the process wasn't very streamlined. So I enjoy learning what works for other people. I always when I meet with anyone, I always ask them a couple of questions. What do you do for networking? What do you find that works really well for you? And if they're also a solo practitioner, you know, who are your clients? Where are you finding them? What's a good referral source for you. And of course, I want to understand how I can help them. Because if you're really concerned with giving, rather than taking, I promise you that it'll come back to you. So that's on the networking front, I was a very early adopter of LinkedIn, you know, 1011 years ago. I've been on LinkedIn for a long time, but I didn't understand its power beyond just a advanced resume. And when I first established my farm, I did start posting, but it was at the end of 2018, that I made a commitment that I was going to post every single day in 2019. And that's a huge commitment. But I did it. And I saw, I can't tell you necessarily, I can't assign an ROI to that. But I did grow my network by more than 40%. In 2019, I do have that metric. And when I would be at large conferences in the IP world, I would run into people that would mention something that they saw on my LinkedIn page. And it was a shock to me, because they never necessarily liked it or posted a comment. So that's when I realized that it was working and that people were seeing it beyond necessarily the metrics that I was seeing. And also, when I first started my firm, I decided I really wanted to do a lot of speaking what I just mentioned a few moments ago, and again, I just I really just have a passion for educating people. And so I started speaking at, you know, small venues, I just wanted to educate small business owners about what I do, because there's a lot of misinformation out there. And so I just took that upon myself to drum that up. And I also really wanted to do CLE so I drove kind of every national CLE provider knots until someone would give me an audience and law line was was that was that audience. I've done three national programs for them. They've been highly successful. I've educated over 1500 lawyers and a little bit over a year and they've been really, really well received. But I've also spoken to other IP organizations, and so it's been great and now I have my first in dictation later this month to speak in front of all large trademark conference in New York, so And that'll be live. So I'm very excited about that.
Steve Fretzin 20:09
Gotcha. I mean, all three of those are amazing. And it can get you some real branding as well as direct business. The question I have is, I know that there's a lot of attorneys that are hesitant to speak in front of other attorneys, especially in their same practice group, because they're afraid of either giving away ideas or, or just, you know, basically, you know, educating, you know, you know, their competitors in some regard. So, how did you get around that? Or how do you think about that?
Stacey Kalamaras 20:37
I don't have an issue with that. But I come from a very different line of thinking so and in marketing in the corporate world, it's very collaborative, I had a hard time adjusting to legal profession, because it tends to be more competitive, more closed doors. It's odd to me, especially considering I practice trademark law, which is incredibly subjective. And I think you need other people to weigh in on those decisions. So I think there's enough work for all of us, I think we shouldn't be so competitive. I think we'd get further if we tried to help each other out. And I think we'd be better practitioners for it. I actually, last month, well into in late January, launched a trademark Academy for lawyers, where I'm educating and teaching young trademark attorneys how to become more efficient and effective practitioners. Because it's very overwhelming process, we have a lot of rules and regulations. But more than that, there's the strategic practical side, which I think comes just from experience, both from being a longtime practitioner, and also my experience as a business person and understanding how to talk to clients. And I'm testing the academy right now with a group of enrollees. And then I'm going to scale it and enroll it out. It's an online program. And a lot of people do, to your point think that I'm crazy for doing this. But for me, my mindset is more that all clients deserve to have quality representation. And when people are properly trained and educated, because this is practical stuff. This is not something you would learn in law school and law school, we need the foundation of the law. And so again, all of this comes from experience, and not everybody has had the experience that that I have had in working in big law working on some of the world's best known brands, and having had just the, the career that that I've had. And so if you're a solo or small, firm practitioner, how do you get that experience? How do you get that insight? Well, I'm hoping to teach that to people and to benefit them so that they can also represent their clients, whether they're small, medium, or large, with the same sort of quality and expertise that I have. So I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing the knowledge. As long as you operate within the bounds of our Professional Responsibility and Ethics and confidentiality. I think, you know, there have been people throughout my career who've been wonderful to me and who have helped me along the way. And when I've been stuck, or when I've been out of work. And those people to me are true role models.
Steve Fretzin 23:07
Yeah. So I think that there's, you know, there's definitely value in getting your brand out there and helping people, I will also just comment that you also have to think about where you are in your business and your career and how much time you have, you know, I could spend my entire time traveling around the country speaking to law school students about networking and the importance of it, but I wouldn't make any money. I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to support myself. So I think you're in I'm not suggesting at all that you're that, you know, you're doing something for nothing, there's a lot of value in what you're doing. I guess I'm just putting it out there to the audience that you know, you've made a calculated decision about how you're going to go out and, and educate people and develop a brand and and I think it's called is it called trademark abilities? Yeah, and to be fair trademark abilities as a business.
Stacey Kalamaras 23:56
So, so the CLS that I do for law line has been on my own dime. And that's been really to sort of dip my toe in and test the waters to see if there was a market for trademark abilities just to be completely transparent.
Steve Fretzin 24:08
Yeah, no, and I think I think whether even if you're making money, you're not making money on it. The point is, is that, you know, to educate the population about best practices is is important. I would also step up and say, I've also had some clients that had been doing that for a number of years, and I've had to sort of advise them not to because of sort of either where they were when their career and their with their time, and I've tried to help them, you know, maybe speak to different groups, maybe it's a group of GCS, maybe it's a group, a group of business owners and just try to move, you know, into different different streams where, where maybe they're not talking directly to their competitor. So I think it's all good, but I think you got to look at the different variables to figure out where you want to go with that. Yeah, no, I think it's I think it's a fair point. I think it's I think it's a fair point for sure. Okay. Okay. And from a standpoint of, you know, the listener And these are these are, you know, typically people that are open to fresh ideas, they're open to looking at how to grow their practice, is there something that you would like point to and say, you know, hey, attorneys, this is the key thing, or this is one thing that I found to be really critical for me and growing a practice and, and building sustainability and success.
Stacey Kalamaras 25:21
You know, I can't I can't point to one thing, you know, I'm still growing, my farm is still very, very young. I didn't come from a farm where I had a huge book of business that I brought with me. So I'm I'm really started from near Ground Zero, and I'm still working on that myself. So I think for me, it's been, it's been all these things that we talked about, I think the presentations that I've given have been critical. Again, I can't point to any ROI numbers on that. But people see these things. And I do promote them a lot. And I, I am very active on LinkedIn, as you mentioned, and they've led to other opportunities for me, and they've led to other speaking engagements. And I never in a million years would have imagined any of that. It's not why I did it. I did it to truly educate business owners, and hope to get better quality clients out of it. Because in the beginning, the people that were calling me weren't necessarily the best fitting clients for me. And so I started creating these presentations as a way to sort of automate a q&a back to these types of repeated questions that I was getting. That's really how it started to be quite honest with you. And then I just enjoyed it. So I started doing more of it.
Steve Fretzin 26:36
But I but I think so you didn't answer my question, but I'm gonna answer answer my question for you. Because, because I think you did answer it earlier. And that is, I think you're courageous, and you're fearless. And you're in, you're going after the business development side, the marketing side of of illegal prayer law practice, or as a legal practitioner, that's really what I think it takes is that you've got to step up and realize it's the business of law. And that, you know, you can't practice it without your own clients. And so I think you stepped up in that regard on on so many levels, that people can really emulate what you've done, because it's, it's really amazing.
Stacey Kalamaras 27:17
Well, thank you, that's, that's kind of you to say, look, it does take a certain, it does take a certain personality and temperament. And I think you do have to be fearless or stupid one or the other.
Steve Fretzin 27:29
I don't think it's stupid. But I think it does help to have some business acumen. And again, many of the attorneys that are coming out of law school are not set up at all for business there, they're just, you know, they're just trying to learn the law and and try to make it from a day to day basis. But at some point, they're going to have to start to realize it is a business and that having their own book is is one of the most important things, whether at a firm or whether you're on your own. At this point, there's no way around it, in my opinion, for many attorneys. So that leads me to my segment that I call, they never taught me this in law school. So maybe help us out what are what are one or two things that you think they should be teaching in law school that would be super helpful to people coming out of law school right now that they're not?
Stacey Kalamaras 28:17
Yeah, so I think just like a basic kind of, you know, p&l of people don't know what that is profit and loss, like how to read a financial statements. Just maybe a general financial accounting class for lawyers, I think would be really helpful to be required for lawyers. But aside from that, what I always tell third year law students because I do get to speak in front of that audience from time to time, is, first and foremost, you do have to be a good lawyer, you do have to learn the law, you don't have to be the best lawyer, you don't have to be the smartest lawyer in the room for reasons we already discussed, right? Because you can be a great listener, you can be a good problem solver. And you don't have to be at the ready with all of the case sites, but you do have to learn your craft. But the one tip that I really like to impart to law students is to remember regardless of what size firm you go into, and obviously, my training ground was big law. And I can't tell you how many times I heard this is to remember that your internal partners are your clients. And so you need to make those people happy. I would shudder when I would hear people say, Oh my god, that idiot Fratton is bugging me again, he wants this and he wants that. Who does he think he is? Well, I'll tell you who he is. He's your client right now. And if you make him happy, and he's he's really happy with not only your work product, but also your can do attitude and the fact that you delivered a work product to him on time and you know, with a smile or whatever else word is gonna spread. And guess what everyone's gonna want to work with you because that's inside your brain. That's how I built my reputation?
Steve Fretzin 30:01
Yeah, I mean, that is really a powerful statement, because I don't think many young attorneys are thinking about it that way. And I think if they did, you know, they would not only learn more, but they would get further in their careers.
Stacey Kalamaras 30:13
It's absolutely true that I built my that's how I built my street cred. Everyone wanted to work with me, because I was like, no problem. Steve, you need that. I'll get that to you. And you know, what may call you if I have questions. Would that be okay? Or because a lot of my partners were in different offices than me. And I understood because I in corporate America, I understood that my ability to make my managers and directors look good was my job. So to me, that was an easy transition to the law.
Steve Fretzin 30:43
Right, right. Well, listen, Stacy, this has been amazing, great, great interview. I'm really excited about all the things that you shared. Do you anything that you want to plug or promote or any information how do people get in touch with you?
Stacey Kalamaras 30:55
Yeah, so my websites for my law firm is klolegal.com. It stands for kalamaras law office. So it's k l o legal .com. You can find lots of information there. Lots of free resources on my website as well. And my office phone number is 708-320-2033. And you can always reach me by email at info at KL o legal com.
Steve Fretzin 31:21
Awesome. Stacey, thank you so much for being my guest today.
Stacey Kalamaras 31:23
My pleasure. Thanks, Steve for having me. I appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin 31:26
You got it. And hey, everyone, I just want to thank you for listening. Hope you enjoy today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take it easy.
Narrator 31:42
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.