In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Seth Price discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Once you get to a certain number of page count, it's more important to get the highest quality content. When somebody says you want quality or quantity, my answer is generally both, but I would say is, you get to a point where pruning is important." — Seth Price
Connect with Seth Price:
Website: blusharkdigital.com & pricebenowitz.com
Text: 347-661-9999
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sethprice
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Seth Price 0:00
I feel like those people in the B2C world that have invested time and energy at building out a website with authoritative content and links that demonstrate gravitas that those things have stood the test of the time it will bring traffic. It's not an instant piece, but it's something that is always important to work on.
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:47
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you're having a wonderful day, as the announcer mentioned, I'm Steve Fretzin, in your host, and it just keeps getting different and different every day with the changing weather and the changing deal with COVID. And we're all in a weird place. But something that also keeps changing. And maybe not as weird is my guest today, though, he'll let me know at the end. If you think he's weird. I think he's not. But anyway, he's the founder of Price-Benowitz. And also of blue shark digital Seth Price. How's it going, Seth? Doing great. Thank you for having me, Steve. Yeah, thanks for taking some time to be with us and love to start off as I usually do. hearing your story, your background, it's quite an amazing one. So please share. Sure, well, I'll try to give you the 30 seconds. So after leaving big law, went to New York to make my fortune during the.com bubble, late 90s.
Seth Price 1:35
And basically was a founding employee of US law calm, which was a precursor to avo, or Legal Zoom, fine law, those types of operations. The bubble burst in April of 2000. So by January of 2001, there was nothing left. And I took what I knew from sort of MC meat mending together, consumers needs with lawyers, which at the time lawyers didn't want to be online, they didn't wanna have websites, and really jumped all in with my own firm, price. benowitz started with a website, and my law partner, Dave benowitz, he sort of controlled the legal side, I did the operations and manage marketing, hire another built another website had another lawyer. So we ended up you know, at our peak about 40, lawyers, probably 40 websites. And about five, six years ago, I decided to spin the in house digital team from bright price benowitz into its own agency, which is blue shark digital, which now represents between 150 and 200 law firms around the country with all their digital needs, from websites to optimization to pay per click and social and beyond.
Steve Fretzin 2:43
Yeah, very cool. It's another entrepreneur in the mix here, building a law practice and then spinning off something that you know, it's just as amazing. So I appreciate you doing that. What are some of the things that lawyers are dealing with right now in the digital space and online marketing? What are some of the challenges that they're facing that you're dealing with every day?
Seth Price 3:00
And you know, I think right now, as we record this, we we have some huge challenges in the b2c market. My world is primarily business to consumer, so PII, criminal immigration, trust, mistakes, family, maybe bankruptcy. And each of those areas has massive, like obstacles right now. So the reason I talk about that is that's what digital marketing was built for. If you get if somebody gets a DUI, they don't really want to go tell their friends and post on social, they want somebody they search, they find that help you solve it, almost like a plumber. That's, that's the model I followed. So lawyers are sitting there, not only do they have to navigate Google, right, with the advent of LSA ads, which is an additional ad a month beyond the normal pay per click, you have a three pack that you're aiming to get into at any given day, Google's testing a two pack, there are things that are always changing, you know, left and right. But bottom line, you know, certain things haven't changed, where great high quality content and authoritative links, build websites that Google loves, and that allow you to perform in the search engines, great. But when I put on my lawyer hat, you know, courts are closed in many jurisdictions, you know, the arrests are down. People are people who are normally in the normal velocity of life, earning money and spending it getting into different forms of trouble or issues. All of those things are, you know, either slow down or stop, thankfully, that stopped. But it's certainly the velocity is not there. And the ability to monetize it as a lawyer and getting through court is not there. So one of the things I'm personally sort of watching out is sort of strains on cash flow, where there are opportunities to spend money through Pay Per Click right now through all these new advents of LSA is, but it takes time before it monetizes and with courts close, it's even longer than normal. So whatever you're anticipating, normally, whether it be a PCI window, or even a criminal defense window, if it takes you longer to get to court, it takes you longer to earn the money before you can, you can consider an urn to all of those things. Putting strains on law firms today.
Steve Fretzin 5:01
So what are some things that lawyers can do to help keep things moving forward to prime the pump and to make sure that if things do get slow, and the money's not coming in, but they're still putting out efforts, either, you know, a digital, it could be content, it could be, you know, other things that they're doing, what are you seeing? And what are you recommending?
Seth Price 5:21
I think that like, anytime the best time to plant the tree is yesterday, second best is today, I feel like those people in the b2c world that have invested time and energy at building out a website with authoritative content, and links that demonstrate gravitas, that those things that have stood the test of the time, it will bring traffic, it's not an instant piece, but it's something that is always important to work on. I think that looking at which of your skews, is monetizing during this period. And a lot of people you know, we had a first round of PPP, some people got a second round of PPP, there's a lot of things that have hidden issues in law firms, and that you things that we think are normally in a non COVID environment, really monetizing well, may or may not be right now, and really try to dive deep into your numbers, which sometimes it's easier said than done, every says to do it. But figuring out, you know, is, you know, for example, in a criminal practice our traffic tickets still monetizable now, or do you really need to focus upstream? What what's working in a pie practice, understanding that whatever your cost of money is, that the money is going to be on the street longer. And realistically, nobody wants to acknowledge this, that the settlements are going to be lower because the the carriers know that you have clients that are itching for money and don't want to wait a year and a half, until all you know, many courts are saying, hey, you're not in court for a year and a half, because you're waiting for all of these criminal cases, and people were locked up to go ahead of you. So I think it's figuring out which of the things you're doing. And then once you do that, and you realize, Hey, this is something that is monetizing more quickly, let's say, you know, lower dollar MVA cases, are monetizing, because they still settle. And you can push those through the pipeline, figuring out a strategy, whether it be LS A's or PPC to turn the spigot on there. But stuff that you're that you're aiming for in other areas where you may have a huge cost of acquisition for more catastrophic case every once them, and you'll figure out a way to make it happen. But they can really catch trap affirmed, given how long it may be before there's a resolution.
Steve Fretzin 7:33
Yeah, and I'm maneuvering in a little different space in the business development space, where marketing and business development work, you know, really hand in hand in the marketing deeply impacts someone's ability to go out and be credible, someone's ability to go out and be reputable and take care of things and kind of set the table. And so I think, you know, I'm seeing people that that are in dire need to get their act together digitally. But at the same time, I'm also saying you can't slow down the business development, you still have to go out there and meet people. And absolutely,
Seth Price 8:03
I would argue that your area, meaning I'm saying in general, but the b2b space is even harder hit by COVID than most because all the serendipity that would normally happen walking through a restaurant on a Saturday night and seeing somebody I haven't talked to in a long time, let me send you a case, all that serendipity is gone. Or greatly reduced, let's say I greatly reduced greatly reduced and even this is sort of like when you are doing something things are more spread out. You go to a you know, you go to play golf or tennis, you go in and go out you're not hanging around, right? A lot of stuff, you know, and while the ballparks are coming back, you know, you're not sitting near you to other people now. It's just all of that stuff. And it's getting somebody else to agree to your level of comfort of exposure. We're seeing another spike. I mean, this is, you know, I've seen in the last two weeks a much of my world is double vaccinated, but I just had a law partner who was single vaccinated family got hit, he already had COVID got it again, just the last days. I've had all sorts of other younger attorneys who are getting really sick. So again, you see Europe spiking. Is this going to come back all that uncertainty, obviously not good, but coming back to you and your world? I would agree. But I think that the beauty is while you can't get that serendipity of live meetups in the north east, maybe you can in Florida because Florida is pretty much open for business, Georgia, some of the southern states. What I do see is what we're doing right here right now. Right? The idea that you can sit at your desk don't have to get dressed up neither of us got dressed for today. Well, you know, we you know, we were sitting there and no suit and tie met. Alright, and we are able to reach in touch and have a conversation with lots and lots of people and that one of the things I feel like during this time people can do is really dive deep. You know, we have a an OFAC lawyer and a key Tam lawyer very, very specific areas. And I took the key Tam layer for example. Which is like a foreclosures like a False Claims Act. If you steal money from the US government, somebody else can come in and say, haha, you did it, blow the whistle. And then the US government, if it takes over, you get a piece of what they recovers. So it's a cool practice. Very, very niche. But I'm like, Look, you can right now get anybody you want to talk to you. I didn't have a lot of my dance card this afternoon. I mean, I do. But I don't mean there's substantive work, but I'm not traveling, there's so much more time that you have. And if you called me up, Steve and said, hey, let's just bullshit for 20 minutes, we kick the can for a really long time. But the fact that you said, hey, let's get on and have this discussion, it changes the dynamic. So in your business development world, I'm a huge proponent of these niche podcasts because you can get a hold of people for a podcast that would never take your call otherwise and get to know them get to see their sports affiliations. As long suffering Knicks fan, I watch your your your background that it pains me at the same time. I now know a little bit more about you.
Steve Fretzin 10:57
Yeah, I was in living in Arizona when they played the suns in the when the bulls played the suns and it was I was not very popular in that bar that night.
Seth Price 11:06
But she was still playing the Knicks were always knocked out by that point.
Steve Fretzin 11:10
No comment. But yes. So I think there's definitely something to be said about about the efficiency that that the COVID era has sort of brought brought forward. But no matter what the case, whether pre or post, it's all about what you're willing to put out there to get business in the door to make it sustainable. And what I wanted to ask you about was SEO and you mentioned this earlier a little bit. But to get into a little deeper, SEO is seemingly always changing. They're always changing their algorithms and like Google's always changing and how do you stay on top of that? And what should lawyers be thinking about if they're just kind of keep going down the same path? And they're just not recognizing that changes that need to happen?
Seth Price 11:49
Well, look, in one sense, it's changing all the time at the geek level that I'm at, at the 30,000 foot level, for SEO itself for search engine optimization, organic not paid. There are, as I mentioned, certain basic fundamentals that have stayed tried true for a number of years, and aren't going anywhere. How do you execute on them? Yes, the devils in the detail. But at the top level, the four pillars, as we call them, high quality content, authoritative links, a well coded site, and a Google My Business Strategy, a local strategy, those four things, probably Google, my business has changed the most of any of them. And reviews are now more important than ever, but high quality content, authoritative links, that's been worked, that's been the one two punch for quite a while the most recent algorithm change is focusing more on those things. And one coming up is, hey, you better you better have high quality content, or it's going to hurt you. And I would say that the newest newest thing, which again, it's nothing new, but that is talk about changes. They're now saying, hey, the health and quality of your site, technically, the user experience matters, the load speed. And those are things they've been telling us forever. They're now saying, hey, if you don't take if you don't watch that third pillar, the technical pillar, you're going to get something on there, demonstrating that this site is not a user friendly site, they did this with security when they want us to do something. So when you used to be you have an HTTP website, and now you have an HTTPS. And if you don't pay the $20, and install the certificate, very easy to do, it says not secure. And when somebody searches when you see a lot with b2b firms, because they don't have an SEO shop, they have some web guy who left it up there. And next thing you know, when you go to search and find it even as a referral, it says not secure. Who wants to go to a not secure site? Yes. Are you very a lot of browser? Are you sure you want to go there? $20 solves that problem. Similarly, so yes, there's lots to stay on top of to make sure, hey, you're using schema, you're reducing your load times all of that stuff. But I would say that for most people out there, the fundamentals haven't changed. It's the details and making sure those you know, that's the part where most lawyers aren't going to stay up to date. And you need somebody to help you whether internally or externally. That said, if you do nothing else, but have a WordPress site and add great content over time, you know, I'll give you an example of an amazing b2b employment lawyer. So he's a, he's a defense side employment lawyer. In Connecticut, his name's Dan Schwartz, very, very difficult to market, defense side employment, because you can't just Google for it. You really need that you need, you know, general counsel's to pick you and everybody else. And this guy started a blog 15 years ago, the Connecticut employment lawyer blog, and he mixes sports, family, pop culture, and law. So well, that this blog has resonated and is a go to place for people to find information. So as a New Yorker, when a rod had his contract issues with the Yankees, boom, here's a guy explaining how that relates to your business. If you can, basically Take the substantive area and demonstrate yourself as a thought leader. That is one where you eat. That is SEO, it's great quality content, people see this, the local newspapers are what are are linking to it. And if you do that, that's the highest level SEO, it's a unicorn is very hard to do. But if you want to get known for something, that's the roadmap he it's many people have done it. But that's a great example, if you want to Google Connecticut employment lawyer blog, it is a great example of what I think of one of the best sort of b2b plays online.
Steve Fretzin 15:34
So it used to be I don't know if this is a saying or not, but it used to be cash is king, and I heard content is king. And it sounds like quality content is king.
Seth Price 15:42
I would agree. And I'd say content is king, you but you are correct. Like footnote, you can't just put crap up. I mean, it's been years since you could go to India and just get somebody to write, you know, people have done a lot. But one of the things we're working with with clients is, it's one thing to get 1000 pages of content, right, because that's one of the sort of the benchmarks for a competitive b2c market. But what we're starting to do is go back and tweak the older pages, because while it's almost like pruning a tree, and the idea being that we're always looking to upgrade, because a lot of those are the money landing pages. So having a seven supporting page for an important page is good. But you might have six, say, you know what, I'm going to leave six pages, I'm not going to build that seventh page, I'm going to spend that time energy and money, but you have X amount of resources, and upgrade that page. Because once you get to a certain number of page count, to me, it's more important to get the highest quality content. And you already have sort of checked that box. So when somebody says you want quality or cut or quality or quantity, my answer is generally both. But I would say as you get to a point where pruning is important, we've done this for many years, where if somebody brings us a site, a lot of people fell victim to what I would call the regurgitated news blog, a third party marketing group said, Hey, we're gonna blog for you, because it's easy to sell, it's easy to replicate, you won't dislike it, they basically an AP writer, here's a story about your area of law, here's a story and says, By the way, if you need a lawyer call us. So it was a formula, and most of its shit, and it's outdated, it just weighs down your site, dangerous intersection accidents, they might have had a benefit, somebody from the accident saw it and did it. But in general, it's just dead weight on your site. So to me, I want to sort of prune out the old stuff, and figure out what is still relevant, make it make it better. So it's highest quality content, and then have the supporting pages. But know that, you know, it's not just more and more and more, but it's making sure that you are keeping that quality level at a certain point.
Steve Fretzin 17:43
Gotcha. Gotcha. And I guess another direction I wanted to take this is video. I mean, where is video on all this? I mean, some people say videos that continuing to the biggest thing that's ever existed. And other people are saying it's it's kind of tough to watch these days with all the ads or for a number of reasons. So kind of where do you fit in it?
Seth Price 18:00
I think I think it's very important part of the formula, right? To me, you still need to be found in Google. And that's going to be the written content. That's the first underline. But let's get once they're there, then you got to keep them there. So Google is part of what they're looking at is the user experience. If you go there, get to a page. And it's it's somebody who's looking for a lawyer coach, and then they watch your video, that's a pretty good user experience, they stay on the page for a while they engage with the video, like these are all positive signals to Google. And if you do x type of b2b work, it takes a lot to get somebody the page, Google's now seeing you as that trusted person versus somebody who goes doesn't have anything. So I love Google for a bunch of reasons, different people learn different ways, is it is relatively cheap to promote. You can promote those videos to specific groups. But at the end of the day, you have to know what how, what is the cycle you're looking for? Is it search based, where I need to solve my problem, where the video may be a conversion factor versus somebody who doesn't know you exist? You know, for example, lawyers may not know that you're out there. And that if you know that these types of lawyers, I'm making this up, let's say you're the king of tax lawyers, if you're able to Tet to target tax lawyers, with who you are and how you can help them in a video message. That's a pretty powerful thing. So to me, and I've seen this in the b2c world areas that you can target like mass torts, videos have worked remarkably well. areas that are social. So boosting videos on social sharing, are the areas that are more engagement for I just had an accident, I just got arrested, I'm being deported those areas, the instant gratification, I feel a static content first with the videos as an extra and not necessarily the primary exceptions to every rule.
Steve Fretzin 19:54
Gotcha. And I'm just picking up on the formula as you're talking here. And you mentioned that you know, the right You know, get you there, the video keeps you there. The thing I'd like to kind of wrap up with or go with is is conversions. Because I think that's one of the things that seems to be missing from a lot of websites or front I know in your space is going to be the the chat box or those other things that help with conversion. But what are some of the keys for conversion after a video is done or after, you know, just to make sure that when someone spends time on a website that they take that next step?
Seth Price 20:27
Right. So I think that look at all that this is this is sort of let's talk to your audience for a second, right? It's not like somebody is calling from the b2b space, sometimes they have an immediate need. And sometimes they're looking for an answer to some question a lot of stuff, we get a ton of calls, oh, I was researching and your site came up. Like if you give people the answers, you're never going to you may hear about it anecdotally. The key is can you get them into your funnel in some way. So if you Hey, if you want to get going back to the tax analogy, if you want an update on all tax issues, any changes in the law, any important updates, put your email in here, and we'll make sure you stay in touch trust in the States, even on the b2c side is which sort of hybrid of b2b, b2b b2c because some of the higher net worth people almost are a b2b transaction. And that, I would say that nobody wants to think about putting a will together, right, there may be a moment you feel like you need it. So every once was urgency, husband, wife going on a plane to family, and they want to make from personal experience, you want to put something in place before you do a great, but generally people kick the can on that a lot. And so the idea of capturing information, and continuing to ping it to the moment somebody say, Oh, yeah, I'm finally ready. Let's get it done. You know, my, my, my good buddy had an episode and I need to make sure I'm protected. That's we'll do it. So you want to sort of like I almost use the old Seinfeld story of like, when they you know, you want to be there for somebody, and then you just want to be there. It's, it's very much like being on the present. And the only way you can do that is if you can have some sort of collateral or offer that will get somebody to share their information with you.
Steve Fretzin 22:01
Do you have an example of of someone that you worked with where you're someone that the one that you put together that was really highly effective?
Seth Price 22:09
You know, I think that there, there are pie lawyers that do like the seven mistakes people make after getting into an accident. You know, that to me in the b2c space, I am a big fan of the instant gratification. And that the to me, I think you need to know what your widget is. Because it puts us in criminal, there's a court date in two weeks there, people send out shock and awe packages to me, I want to just if I have their contact information, I'm gonna call them every day until they say eff you, I don't want to talk to you. Like, I'll tell my people, you know, I don't want somebody to call and be upset, we're calling too much. But like, the first time that happens, I'll bonus you like, again, if it starts happening all the time, and you're too aggressive. You need to you need to curtail but my feeling is that with with each of these things, but I see very often the offer of an update, an area that somebody is interested in, particularly in the b2b world, I've seen that very, very effective, because, you know, they're in that area. And it's, you know, again, I'll use almost like a dating analogy. If you come to somebody and say, Hey, you meet somebody the bar and say, hey, I want to go home and get married, you're like the person's crazy. How about, you know, like, just, you know, hanging out giving them some information, it's that sort of get to know you phase where you become ubiquitous. And you ensure that name keeps coming up, you keep hearing it. Similarly, in the b2c space, why I love a paid ad, a three pack in organic, it's like you're everywhere. And when you can be ubiquitous. And in this case, one of the ways you could become ubiquitous, is getting their email information, I'll sort of conclude with this, I go to a conference. You know, to me, one of the tricks I love, I go to a conference, I meet you, we shake hands, what not nine times out of 10, you don't have a business card. Oh, I'll take your business card. And I promise I'm gonna call you 99 times out of 100. Never. I've had I've given the sales reps that I still don't get a call from things that I wanted. So what I've done is I flipped it on its head, you will welcome to steal this. When I go to a conference. If somebody can't, doesn't have a card, I say you know what, you know, before I give you my card, what's your email address, I send them a gift to get Nice to meet you. It's in the rayline that Nice to meet you as a cc to my admin admin at my firm, that person will then send them a handwritten card note in the mail, right, you can use third party service to do that. You're gonna add them to LinkedIn, they're gonna add them to our email list. And they're going to basically you know, you know, once they're in that piece that becomes their then part of you for the until they tell it until they hit a button say I'm out there now part of the night and I I feel like we treat the the the forms on our website the same way we scrape all the inbound ones. I get one set of every three times I send it out. I get somebody upset, though. email him, sorry, take them off the list move on. But it's staying top of mind staying present. And to me if you don't have a system to do it, it just won't happen.
Steve Fretzin 25:08
Yeah. And it sounds like it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission in some circumstances.
Seth Price 25:13
Well, I mean, again, it's b2b. So it's not, you're not going to consumer, you're a lot. The laws are much different. I'm sure there's an IP lawyer out there. That will tell you how to make sure you don't get in trouble for this. Sure. But, you know, what I would say is, it's it's basically at the highest level, staying in touch at scale, which is, as you know, really, really challenging, and probably the b2b side, the most important thing ever.
Steve Fretzin 25:38
So here's a final question for you. I mean, I just listening to you talk about it, there's two things I figured out number one is that you're an absolute expert in this area, you know, your stuff in and out. The other one is that you're highly passionate about this thing. And so my question is, what's more interesting to you these days? I mean, are you are you loving the digital and then the blue shark or the law firm or equal give equal love?
Seth Price 26:00
Well, I would say what, what I've done is I've carved out a space, I don't have a client docket. I don't have my own cases, I can advise as needed on negotiation stuff that I love, but I'm not responsible for any cases. So I get to double dip, I get to sort of Okay, bye bye. My met my passion for marketing and systems and operations. I get to do not once but twice. So yeah, it's a little it's a little crazy. But I'm not pretending to, you know, advocate for my clients on a day in and day out basis, I've created a place for myself. And so yes, you see my passion about making these things work and the connections. But just like this connection today, it may be somebody who needs a PCI lawyer in DC, Maryland, or Virginia. But it also might be somebody who needs it needs a website optimized. I'll talk about either all day long. And to me, it's very, it's very synergistic. So while it may seem desperate, I found a way to tie them together. I really enjoy it.
Steve Fretzin 26:54
That's really awesome. Man, I appreciate you taking some time to come on the show and and share your wisdom if people want to reach out to you or to blue shark? How do they get in touch with you?
Seth Price 27:03
Sure. Well, it's Seth@blusharkdigital.com My, I always give my cell phone out 347-661-9999 you can put it in the comments. But basically, text me, like, doesn't have to do anything, I'll geek out, I'll point you in the right direction and get somebody where they need to be, you know, certain truisms I'll conclude with is that b2b shouldn't be spending their first dollars on SEO, they might we have like a $975 a month product. That's more than enough for 90% of the b2b lawyers unless they're a big firm, because you really just need the fundamentals. It's the b2c firms that need that eyeballs to convert, if somebody has already bought season tickets, done everything, present the Chamber of Commerce, and then they want to optimize fine, but it's not where you put your first dollars, in my opinion. And then secondly, on the b2c side, I sort of have a 350 rule that until a law firm hits 350 in revenue, they should really stay at the very junior level with a basic fundamental site, and only after breaking 350 in revenue, is it sort of Okay, now you can start spending a bit on SEO, and I make that very clear line in the sand because I find that if I try if somebody unless they're independently wealthy or they're funded, generally you need some sort of corpus of money in order to make it happen.
Steve Fretzin 28:21
Now well, that's really really helpful advice too. I think some people again, they go into it they get talked into stuff by other vendors that you know, just are looking for make a buck and they're not thinking about what's best for the lawyer. So I appreciate you and then saying that so absolutely. Thanks again, Seth. And thanks everybody for listening in on the podcast and again, the goal here hopefully you got some good takeaways but to be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Alright, everybody, take care be safe.
Narrator 28:53
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.