In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sarah Tetlow discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"It is important to hold space at the end of your workday to wrap up the last few things, or be comfortable with delaying it until the next day." — Sarah Tetlow
Connect with Sarah Tetlow:
Website: Firm-Focus.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sarah-tetlow-42688b8/ & linkedin.com/company/firm-focus-llc
Facebook: facebook.com/Firm-Focus-2133715496717831/
Book Reference:
Getting Things Done by David Allen - amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0142000280
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Sarah Tetlow 0:00
The other crucial thing with writing things down and having a system that will bring back reminders when you need them is being comfortable with what you're not working on. And that's really, really hard. For most of us. We look at all of these valuable assets that we have in our head, we come up with this great idea. We're talking to our great business development coach, and he says, You ever written an article in three years, you really should write an article and we think if we don't start that today, then we're never going to do it. And so everything becomes sort of a high priority.
Narrator 0:35
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:57
Hey, everybody, it's Steve Fretzin. And welcome to be that lawyer. We've been doing this show for a while and just keeps getting more and more interesting with different guests. And hopefully, you're getting some good takeaways and ideas and tips on how to improve your business development and time management and all that fun stuff that they never taught you in law school. My guest today is Sarah Tetlow, she's the owner of firm focus. How you doing, Sarah?
Sarah Tetlow 1:21
I'm doing great. How are you doing today? Steve?
Steve Fretzin 1:23
You know, I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. Even if I complain, nobody's really that interested. So I'm gonna stick with good love to have you share just a moment about your background and how you not only got into working with lawyers, but specifically in the organizational space and time management.
Sarah Tetlow 1:40
Yeah, so I started my career as a litigation paralegal. right out of college, I went to UC Santa Barbara 'go gauchos' and studied law in society. And the short story is I fell in love with Santa Barbara, which led me down a paralegal route instead of the lawyer route. Although I always thought I would be a lawyer. And Fast Forward many years, I was introduced to the marketing and business development sector of law firms for a short stint there. And there were many great things I learned while in the marketing and business development manager role. But I also took that time to really explore what I loved doing, what my skills were, and where there really was a need in the market and in the industry. And that led me to launching firm focus, and firm focus, kind of like its name has a double meaning. But ultimately, I want to help lawyers have a productive day, increase their revenue, increase their focus and their productivity and reduce the overwhelm burnout of their career.
Steve Fretzin 2:42
Yeah, and it's, it's so important, because I know, as a business development coach, I am only as good as my client, right? They're the ones on the field trying to grow the business. And when they're bogged down with inefficiencies and disorganization, and all of that stuff and stress, a very difficult for them to kind of execute on the things that I'm looking to help them on. So let's start off with reducing the stress and anxiety, what are lawyers supposed to be doing these days to, with all that's going on in the world, and all that's going on at work and everything to reduce that stress and anxiety with their job?
Sarah Tetlow 3:17
That's so much to unpack there. And I love sometimes when I'm talking to lawyers, and I say that introduction or something similar, and they'll respond to me, facetiously, that's assuming that we are stressed and overwhelmed. And usually, I laugh with them, because the majority of the time they are being sarcastic. There's a couple that look at me straight in the eye and don't see that where the industry ultimately is. And certainly, it is really challenging to depending on what type of law you're practicing, or the caseload you have, or the number of clients that you're managing, and all of the different responsibilities that lawyers have, it is difficult to reduce that stress and burnout. But there are certainly ways to, like I said, design a proactive day to plan ahead, to prioritize to understand what's on their schedule first, then what the top priorities that they need to do for the day, second, and then ultimately what other communications have come in. But knowing first what's on schedule, and what your priorities are, will really help them experience less stress and less burnout, because then you start to know where the other projects or tasks fall into place by first identifying what you need to do proactively in your work day.
Steve Fretzin 4:35
Yeah, and if you had to say like the top two things that lawyers should be doing to keep the stress down and I know there's a lot of variations in situations here, but what would you say is the things that you just regularly that you see that you have to sort of manage?
Sarah Tetlow 4:52
Get good sleep, take breaks
Steve Fretzin 4:55
Get sleep and take breaks. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we're dealing with A lot of zoom fatigue. And there's definitely some questions I have for you about that. But how much sleep is the right amount of sleep? Is there a number that people should be trying to hit?
Sarah Tetlow 5:08
Yes. And that number is really, depending on that person. So I have clients that say they really need eight to nine hours. And some are very good about getting it, others really struggle with getting it or it's eight to nine interrupted hours. And but they know that that's their magic number, others can survive on five to six hours. So the first is to know yourself and what you can survive on. I do challenge those that say less than six hours that that's their magic number, if that's just what they get versus what they're able to be productive on. So if we can get them maybe in the six to eight hour range, maybe ideal, but there are people that can function and be productive and be successful on five to six hour days or nights of sleep. So it varies depending on the person, I know me, I'm a I'm a seven to eight hour a night sleeper, and I need that magic number for myself.
Steve Fretzin 6:08
Well, I think you know, you have to think of yourself as a battery. And if you don't have the time to recharge the battery, you're gonna burn out. It's not you know, anything other than science and biology at work. And so I think you're kidding yourself, if you can, you know, three or four hours, that's all I need. And again, if that's if that's real, okay, and that, you know, if that doesn't catch up with you, or you fall apart on a Sunday or Friday, fine, but I think you're right, most people are going to need a certain amount of time, because that's just what biology is telling you your body you need.
Sarah Tetlow 6:37
And similarly, as I mentioned, the other one was taking breaks, and too often being productive, is misconstrued as getting as much done as you possibly can. But ultimately, that night of sleep, have good deep sleep. And the breaks that you take throughout your workday are really what help you reset, and actually accomplish more and the quality of your work increases, the quantity of your work actually increases by implementing breaks throughout your day, as well as good night's sleep. But that's those are obviously a component of what I'm working on with my clients, I don't just come in and say take breaks and get good sleep. But those are two really important pieces of being productive and reducing that stress and burnout.
Steve Fretzin 7:23
Well, let me let me push back for a second. And let's maybe work through this together. But I think one of the concerns that lawyers would have, either whether it's sleep breaks, or, or doing business development is that they may have something scheduled in their calendar that says take a break, and they find themselves with work in front of them that needs to get done. And they're thinking about trying to get you know, worked on before six o'clock, and it's dinnertime. How do they set habits? Like what are the key things that you've found to getting people to change their ways to have better habits, more productive habits or habits that are going to benefit them, so they can be more efficient?
Sarah Tetlow 8:03
Well, one way when you when you mentioned, they might have it on their calendar to take a break, I have a couple thoughts on whether or not that's an effective way to schedule breaks, because scheduling breaks, and it's not really organic or fun, per se. But that being said, if if they do have a break scheduled, or they have a time in their day that they could essentially take a break, but then another project comes up or something that they didn't finish and they need to get done. My first response to that is see if there's opportunities to batch things. So is it a phone call to a client that you need to do? And can you do that while taking a walk? So where possible, try to batch the activity or the break? And if you're thinking well, that's not really taking a break. And I understand that in some cases, it may not be, but where there's no other option for you to maybe do that particular project past? Can you do it in a more leisurely fashion than sitting on your computer or in zoom fatigue. And as far as setting habits, if you have some sense of what it is that you really need to get done and set some discipline around that that these are the top three, maybe five things I have to get done today, then it's much easier to build a successful day. I actually most days I take out a sheet of paper for the next day. I open up my calendar and I assess what is confirmed on calendar, and then what additional projects if any, depending on how full my calendar is for that day, but what additional projects if any, I need to make movement on or need to finish. But I also do build in those break time. So that important lunchtime or 10 minutes to reset or certainly transition period in between meetings. That's a crucial habit to build into the practice. Not to schedule meetings back to back to back so 11 to 1130 and then a call at 1130 and then one again at 12 keep those at At least 15 minute open blocks of time to get water, use the bathroom, hit reset for yourself for the day and then transition into that next meeting or assignment.
Steve Fretzin 10:09
Yeah, so it's interesting that the two things that I didn't realize anything to do with the new zoom environment was number one, making sure that my auto scheduler which I use, which is fantastic, by the way, that I had time before and time after each meeting, so that they weren't going back to back to back. Because I was finding myself like, what did I just do? And then the other one was actually scheduling lunch, so I wasn't scheduling lunch, he just didn't have my calendar. And next thing, you know, my schedule was filled up. And um, you know, going from eight to five without a break, well, that was a big misstep. So I had to learn. Now I have it in my calendar, it's like it's, it's golden, it's, it's very easy to take breaks. So that's a segue into into zoom fatigue, I mean, breaks is clearly something we need to do. Are there other things that you're recommending your clients work through to get to not feel so drained by being on the screen all day talking to people?
Sarah Tetlow 11:02
It's draining, isn't it, and it's even more draining. And I think that in person at times. And similar to the sleep magic number, there is no universal magic number. But I think that it is customized for each person, what is your magic number of meeting zoom time. So I found for me, that I really can only handle about three zoom meetings a day, before I start to get pretty fatigued from that, staring into the little button or on the face on the screen making eye contact for longer periods of time smiling more, because your personality doesn't quite translate over a screen as it does in person, in my opinion. So I smile more on zoom. And so three meetings a day. And I would say three meetings or three hours, whatever comes first is pretty much my max. And I encourage others to do a self assessment of what your Mad Max says. And I have had clients that unfortunately, by default, but what their career is or how they meet with their clients, or their bosses or their team, they can't set that number that that number is set externally by the firm that they work for, or their clients. So when possible, if there is a meeting that you can suggest a phone call or video turned off, take advantage of that where possible.
Steve Fretzin 12:29
Yeah, that's great. That's great. I think I think yeah, I think doing a self assessment and really, kind of seeing how you feel at the end of six meetings, or four meetings or whatever, you know, three hours, five hours, and how do you feel and maybe make some adjustments based on on kind of where you are, at the end of the day or end of a couple days of doing it one way or the other? Let's transition into, you know, one of the things that you focus on in what you do, which is really time management, or they're like the top three time management tips that you generally give to attorneys to help them with their efficiency.
Sarah Tetlow 13:05
Yes, one write it down at David Allen's getting things done is a huge proponent of out of your head into a trusted system, and review religiously. So writing it down is crucial. And that's a big mistake. I see a lot of times in lawyers or just others in general, especially those that have ADHD, I do work with a lot of lawyers that have ADHD, you're not alone, and having a system to write it into. So it's one thing to write it down on post it notes and stick them all over your screen, and then there's no priority or you lose notes, or you're not really sure, systematically how to approach what it is you wrote down. So having that trusted system, that system that is going to bring the reminders up at the time that you need them. So write it down, put it into a trusted system, and then reviewing religiously is the third part of the David Allen system. And that's essentially assessing at least on a weekly basis. Okay, what is my week look like? What are the projects I need to focus on or make movement on? We work in a reactive industry, the legal industry is incredibly reactive. And almost every day, something's going to come up more urgent or urgently excuse me, by your partner, at your firm or your client, or your business development coach. And you have to also save room in your schedule, knowing that those shifts are going to happen throughout your week. But the other crucial thing with writing things down and having a system that will bring back reminders when you need them is being comfortable with what you're not working on. And that's really, really hard for most of us. We look at all of these valuable assets that we have in our head, we come up with this great idea. We're talking to our great business development coach and he says, you know you ever written an article in three years you really should write an article and we think if we don't start that today, then we're never going to do it. And so everything becomes sort of a high priority. And so a lot of what I work with my clients on with that writing it down and having a trusted system is scheduling it where it's feasible that you'll get it done. So you want to write that article. And this week is really busy. You have two depositions on calendar and a full day on Thursday. And you've got a little bit of block of time on Friday. But inevitably, other priorities are going to come up. But you do want to make that article a priority in your schedule. And maybe you have a deadline for the first week in December. So can we assess what your schedule looks like next week, write down the fact that you are going to write that article, schedule it in your trusted system. And when you do your review religiously, you'll know I'm comforted in that I am not working on that this week. But I have space in my schedule, time allocated to commit to it next week and get it done.
Steve Fretzin 16:01
And I'm thrilled to hear that you're a fan of David Allen, I've been a student of his for probably 15 years. And I'm one of these guys that definitely undiagnosed ADHD, no, no question about it. And I had stacks of business cards, I had proposals mixed in with brochures from Italy mixed in with, you know, a doodle, I mean, just everything everywhere in my office, and it was just, someone would ask me a question, I'd say, yeah, let me call you back in 20 minutes, because then I'd have to dig through, you know, piles of junk to find what they were asking about. So the idea that there's that you can get a system to get organized, and then have a system of how you stay organized. That's really what that that getting things done book is all about. And I'm, you know, I've been teaching it as well for for a long time. And it's really been helpful to my clients to be able to tackle, you know, four hours of emails that they get a day or whatever the, you know, the things that are coming in to their to their world. Is there one particular part of that book that you found, you need to keep using over and over again, with your clients?
Sarah Tetlow 17:05
Well, ultimately, I think that the brain dump piece of it, the writing things down, they oftentimes trust that in their head is a great place to store the information. But up there, if we have tasks, projects, emails, to handle, family things to do doctor's appointments to make, where do you have space in there to actually effectuate the work. So getting people to write things down, and then of course, be able to get them back, because that's the fear and writing it down. If they don't know that they'll get it back when they need it or want it. That's the biggest component the system.
Steve Fretzin 17:41
Yeah, I think if I, if I hadn't been writing things down, I probably would be estranged from my family, because my son would have been left at school, my wife, I probably wouldn't have shown up at the ceremony for us to get married. Like, I mean, everything needs to be written down. And so my wife, you know, she used to just pick up my phone and look at my phone to know what I'm up to, because I write down everything. And if it isn't written in there, it's not happening. So in addition to appointments, something else I'll share that I do, and this is what you mentioned, write it down in a trusted place. So I use my calendar. So religiously, as most people do, that I'll either schedule something that I need to do for a specific time. Or if it's something that isn't quite time sensitive, I'll just put it up in my calendar as a task. And what I do is every day before the day ends, I either finish it, or I move it to the next day, with the understanding that you can't just move things day to day to day to day for like weeks and weeks, you need to, you know, if it goes more than a day or two that you've got to, you know, then maybe set a time for it. But I haven't had really had that issue if it's if it's one of the five things that I need to get done. Before I leave my office or before I finish up, I just make sure I just knock those things out before I before I wrap up,
Sarah Tetlow 18:52
Steve, you have a lot of great things I'd like to unpack there. One is the idea of a shutdown routine. So when you're mentioning that you put some of your tasks at the top, which is one method, there are so many methods, I have so many ideas of what would work for each client on how to track their tasks or their unfinished projects or their future work. But just to take your example of what you do, and you put up in the in the top bar that you've got these particular tasks to do. And then what you essentially do, Steve is a shutdown routine. So you save space at the end of your work day to assess what you didn't finish, and either make the decision to do it in the moment or delay it right.
Steve Fretzin 19:33
Yeah, that's correct.
Sarah Tetlow 19:34
To bring a different perspective. And this comes from productivity techniques of the five D's, the five D's of anything that you need to do, and this is an email, a project to task laundry, cooking dinner, watering your plants starting to garden, anything that you need to do. There are five things you can do that. So takes two minutes, five minutes and just do it. You can delay it. Oh, I'm not gonna Do it today, but I'll do it, Friday afternoon, you can diminish it. This is a pretty big project. So I'm going to break it down into little chunks each day, you can delegate it, I am not going to actually get this done. So I'm going to assign it off to my assistant to handle it. Or you can delete it. I'm never going to actually read this email. So let me just hit Delete on this email. And so at the end of the day, when you're well throughout the day, you can apply the five days. But just again, sticking with your example, Steve have here a couple things that I added on to my to do list throughout the day, which ones can I get done quickly? Which ones can i delay, and I think it is incredibly important. whatever time you need to stop work. For me, I pick my kids up around four, 4:15, 4:30 at the latest. So by four o'clock I'm doing my shutdown routine, I'm sometimes I'm walking out the door at 4:05. If I have everything pretty much handled for the day. Other times I might be walking out about 4:20 if I'm have those couple of things, loose ends to tie up. So but it is important to hold space at the end of your workday, when possible to handle those last minute things are just be again comfortable with what it is that you are delaying what's going to go to the next day. Again, I have a couple of ideas, and really would depend one on one on what works for the particular client or person I'm talking to. But just one suggestion that you could do as you delay tasks for your method, Steve, you could put a little number what so when you open up the calendar entry, and you're moving it, put a one, I've moved it one day, a two, I've moved it two days, and have some sort of personal metta decision or goal that I will not move something more than X number of days, three days, five days. And when you hit that number, you have to do it. Or you have to assess which of the five days it's really going to be I'm not doing it, I continue to delay it. Can I break it down? diminish it? And I delegate it to somebody else? Or do I need to delete it?
Steve Fretzin 22:06
Yeah, that's really great. I think that's something I'm fortunate in that most things don't go more than a few days. That being said, I think that's really bright, because you can track I mean, if maybe if everything's going to three days or four days or whatever, then you know, maybe I have to consider a different situation or, or a different approach because maybe that's too long for those tasks to be put off. Or maybe I need to, as you said, diminish them break them down. And that's going to be helpful to get something accomplished. So, you know, for example, I'm writing an article, I need to do research for that article. So maybe I break it into two parts, there's the research part, and there's the writing part, and I don't have to do them together. And so that might be a way to to minimize it down to a couple different smaller tasks. So in kind of wrapping up is there you know, anything you'd like to leave us with as far as why lawyers need to really consider a system for time management, a system for organization versus just winging it or hoping that the day is going to work out? Or just thinking they're going to have the day they want when that never happens?
Sarah Tetlow 23:11
Yeah, so lawyers have a lot of parts of their practice that they have to succeed at. They oftentimes have a billable hour requirement. Of course, not all lawyers do, but many, many do. as they grow in their career, and they start to get the pressures or the desire, I shouldn't say pressure, it should be a desire to grow their book of business and to be successful at business development, that becomes a component of their practice that they need to save space for throughout the day. They have non billable meetings, assignments work that they need to also do. And they have worked really hard. They've put a lot of years and a lot of money into an education and they're brilliant people. And in law school, what they didn't teach you in law school, I know it's one of your your questions you sometimes bring up and sometimes don't see, but what they didn't teach you in law school is how to balance all of that and hit that billable hour requirement. But still find time to overall have a successful practice and balance all the other needs to have a successful practice. So it's essentially basic math that I work with them on how much time do you want to work? Or can you work? And what do we need to fit into that? And how can we maximize that time throughout the day and create a schedule or structure habits to support maximizing the time that you have to also then be able to have a great quality of life outside of work? Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to measure with my clients is what is it that is waiting for you in your home life that you want to do or need to do? And how can we make that a priority as well and your overall day?
Steve Fretzin 24:55
Yeah, that's great. Well, I think we'll wrap things up on that note, and so there's lawyers out there listening to this it said, geez, everything Sarah just said, I need, you know, I'm all over the place. I don't have a management system I need I need help. And I don't want to do it on my own. How do they get in touch with you? What's the best the best way for them to reach out?
Sarah Tetlow 25:13
On LinkedIn? I welcome the connection or message there I am. Sarah S a r a h Tetlow. t e t l o w, although you can see that in the show notes. I don't know that I needed to spell it.
Steve Fretzin 25:24
Yeah, that's okay. It doesn't hurt.
Sarah Tetlow 25:27
My website is firm-focus.com. You can contact me through there as well.
Steve Fretzin 25:33
Well, fantastic. I appreciate you taking some time that you scheduled out for us, right, because that's the only way it works. And I want to thank you for for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us. It's much appreciated.
Sarah Tetlow 25:45
I really appreciate it. Steve, thanks for all the hard work that you do as well. Yeah. Love Your diverse podcast. That's great.
Steve Fretzin 25:51
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And hey, listen, everybody. I hope that you were got as much out of this as I did. Listening to Sarah. And again, the goal, as usual, is to be that lawyer. Again, someone who's organized, confident and skilled Rainmaker. Take care and be safe, everybody. Bye Bye.
Narrator 26:13
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes