In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ryan Estis discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"We've got to learn to be comfortable being a little uncomfortable, having the courageous conversations, and getting clarity around where somebody is in their decision making process after a certain point in conversation or engagement." — Ryan Estis
Connect with Ryan Estis:
Twitter: @RyanEstis
Facebook: Ryan Estis
Website: RyanEstis.com
eBook: Adapt and Thrive
YouTube: Ryan Estis & Associates
LinkedIn: Ryan Estis
Instagram: @ryanestis
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Ryan Estis 0:00
You know, oftentimes we like to get mired in data and statistics and we do our own research and it's easy to do that. But it's important to remember people remember the story 24 hours after a presentation, only 5% of participants can recall statistics were 65% can recall stories.
Narrator 0:21
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:43
Well, hello, everyone and welcome to be that lawyer. Very excited to be here today. My guest is a nationally recognized speaker, sales trainer and blogger, Ryan Estis. Ryan, what's shakin?
Ryan Estis 0:56
Hey, it's great to be here, Steve. Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 0:59
Here. Did I get your last name right?
Ryan Estis 1:00
You got it?
Steve Fretzin 1:02
Right asked is awesome. Awesome. So love to hear more about your background and share that with my audience. But I'd also like to just understand if there's something fun and interesting about yourself that you could share prior to laying out your bio.
Ryan Estis 1:17
Oh, let's see. Let's see fun and interesting. Well, I'll tell you what, I'll, I'll share I'll share this. I grew up I was in a rural Ohio. I was the son of two school teachers. And we grew up in a town it was the only seasonal SeaWorld theme park in the United States. And I actually worked there for five years. I didn't train shambu but that's where I got that's where I got my start and sales and customer service. SeaWorld of Ohio.
Steve Fretzin 1:45
Wow, I didn't even know there was a seat is that still exist in Ohio?
Ryan Estis 1:48
It doesn't pay close the button. But literally it was it was in Cleveland, like, right, this snow belt was open. Like it was the craziest thing. It was open like four months a year. But it was literally two minutes from where I grew up. So unusual thing
Steve Fretzin 2:03
that is very unusual. So I shade that in. And so yeah, so I mean, I gave a very brief bio of you. But will you get build into your background a little bit and sort of how you came to be?
Ryan Estis 2:13
Yeah, sure. So I got my business started in advertising communications on the accountant sales side. So I worked my way up into that sales organization. The last job I had in that organization industry, I was the chief sales officer running business development for about a $200 million division inside of a fortune 500 company. And in January of 2099, with the world falling apart, around us, I made the exit stage left to the kitchen table to start my own business and have had this business for 10 years.
Steve Fretzin 2:45
And what what exactly do you do in the business? What's the some of the key I know training and keynotes and things like that, but what's the what's the gist?
Ryan Estis 2:53
Research writing training and and professional speaking, keynote speaking, has probably been the kind of unanticipated but but biggest driver of growth in the business. You know, when the business started, it was really a consulting business and training business. And then keynote speaking, took off five or six years ago. And so obviously, that's changed a bit in 2020. But last year, 2019 82 8080 live events, live presentations, or combination keynotes and seminars.
Steve Fretzin 3:23
So I'm just going to bounce off of that. What What do you enjoy about being a keynote speaker and doing that many events a year?
Ryan Estis 3:30
Well, I'm a the ad is hard. It's a lot of travel. But look, I love teaching. And I think I mentioned both my parents were school teachers, I would say that's, that's in my DNA, my classroom just looks a little bit different. But and, you know, part of what I miss about the live events, frankly, is just the engagement. It's meeting people building relationships, listening to other speakers and and executives talk about strategy, vision process, best practices, you know, I'm very, very fortunate I, you know, on an annual basis, I was walking into 50 or so of the world's best organizations and getting to invest time and spend two or three days listening and learning from them, and then sharing some of my own ideas. So it's, it's a fun job. It's exactly what I always wanted to do and think I was meant to be doing. And right now we're just navigating a bit of disruption, that's all.
Steve Fretzin 4:18
So yeah, I had the opportunity to watch some of your presentations prior to this interview, and was just blown away with not only your energy, but just the way that you move on a stage the way that you present. And certainly the content is relevant, but it's just that's not something everybody can do. It's really, really a skill.
Ryan Estis 4:34
Well, thank you. Yeah, you know, it is a skill and it's a good point. You know, I was very raw and had a lot of sales, you know, in my background, and then I had given probably 1000s of sales presentations by the time I had started this business. But the actual keynote speaking you're right is a skill and it's a skill that can be cultivated and developed. I didn't have that skill when I started but I would say that, you know, like any other skill I learned, studied, we received some very, very valuable coaching, and then worked really hard at it. So the if the end product resonates what you see today, it's, you know, it's been been actually 10 plus years of working at it. So thank you.
Steve Fretzin 5:11
Yeah, that Well, great. It's great stuff. And a lot of the attorneys that I coach and train and work with you get business or attempt to get business through speaking, is there one or two sort of important tips that you would provide to them that you say, look, if you're going to get up in front of people, you need to do these things? Yeah, there's,
Ryan Estis 5:30
there's a couple a couple of tips. And by the way, just as a bit of background, that's how I got started in speaking. So I, I was, I mentioned, I was the chief sales and Strategy Officer for this advertising agency. And literally, we speak to develop business. So I, my whole speaking career started in that role, I was going to trade shows, conferences, industry events, and I realized instead of kind of being there on a showroom floor networking, or whatever, we would be much better received, if I was the guy at the front of the room, sharing my expertise. And so making that pivot and doing it for that reason, actually led to my next career, you know, I started to get good at it. And I enjoyed it. It was really helping the agency grow and develop business. And I started to get asked to do it more and more, and then, you know, people were inquiring, hey, what's that guy's fee? I remember, I was like, fee? What?
Steve Fretzin 6:21
There's a fee?
Ryan Estis 6:22
Yeah, well, what was gonna pay me to do this? What? And that's, that's really where it started. So I it's actually, you know, consistent with my philosophy that anybody that you know, whether you're an attorney, an advisor, a coach, I mean, speaking to establish credibility, and, you know, develop your practice, grow, your practice makes a lot of sense. And so around that a couple of tips that I would I would give, you know, number one, I think, from the best speakers, I know, they're just master storytellers. So, you know, oftentimes, we like to get mired in data and statistics, and we do our own research. And it's easy to do that. But it's important to remember people remember the story 24 hours after a presentation, only 5% of participants can recall statistics were 65% can recall stories. So so you know, a great keynote, it's a it's a blend of expertise. And you certainly want to demonstrate competency and knowledge. And emotional resonance, that's where people really get on the precipice of change. So if you can balance those two things, I think you're doing a good job. And then the second thing, I would just say, just from a growth or practice development perspective, you know, have something of value to give that's part and parcel to the speech, we, we very often at the conclusion of my keynote will give away an ebook, we have this ebook called adapt and thrive, how sales leaders are preparing to win in the 2025 world, which actually might be relevant to your audience, too, we can include a link to that. But you know, I have a text to download feature of that ebook, in my keynote presentation. And that builds my audience, and it builds my community, but it also gives people something tangible, that they can take if they want to go a little bit further in the learning agenda. And it's a great connection point for me to follow up to.
Steve Fretzin 8:06
So yeah, it could be a it could be an E book, it could be a white paper, an article, something that that you can, you know, just continue to add value to the what you've already provided in the presentation.
Ryan Estis 8:17
Yeah, continue to add value and create that connection, which, you know, allows you to engage on an ongoing basis. I mean, for me, and probably like your audience to so much of my business, my business growth, it really is about relationships and referrals. But if somebody sees me speak, and then I can extend the value through, like you said, a white paper and E book, an additional touchpoint that deepens the learning. And then they join me on a journey where I continue to produce relevant content. And we have a newsletter that we publish every week, you mentioned my YouTube channel, we're constantly adding new content to that. So it's not unusual for us to hear from somebody that met me four or five years ago at a conference, I did a presentation I gave, and they're circling back around four or five years later to say, hey, we'd love to have you here or I change companies would you ever do something like this, and it's because I brought them forward with me on that journey. So I think that's a really important point to for, for people to consider if you're using speaking to grow their practice.
Steve Fretzin 9:14
And you you've worked with some of the largest and best known companies in the world. And they're I'm sure that their specific sales tips or business development ideas that they're looking for, to help them generate business in in today's world, and I'm not just talking about Corona today, but just you know, being in you know, the year 2020 is very different than 2010. And a lot of you know, a lot of many people don't really adapt or change their, their business development strategies to adapt to what's going on around them. So what have you What have you seen and what what kind of ideas do you have on that?
Ryan Estis 9:47
Well, that's exactly right. I mean, basically, that's the whole thesis of the book, right that customer expectations and sophistication have evolved much faster than most organizations business development or go to market strategy. So closing that gap is essential if you want to drive growth. And and really it is about meeting customers where they are, I think the the sales process today has to be a lot more customized. Personalized is, is one particular thing too. I think another key consideration, it really it really is about what I call getting closer to the customer, you got to create customer intimacy and get obsessed about customer outcomes. And that requires it mandates really solidifying your value proposition, what's you know, authentic, differentiated and compelling about doing business with you, as opposed to another returning in your category, I have an abundance of choices. So I think those are a couple of things that are critically important. One of the tips that I always give salespeople today is instead of focusing on how to be successful, focus on how you can be helpful, you know, we should be in the business of solving problems Accelerating Opportunity. And and that's where we have to focus. And I think part of that means showing up prepared. Today, far too many people that are developing business or trying to make a sale, show up underprepared and simply just aren't meeting customers expectations in that level of engagement. So the more effort preparation planning, that you can put into on the front end, you'll be in a much better position to align with a customer during that kind of engagement. So those are a few high level tips. I say today, the best salespeople are teachers, right? They develop deep insight perspective on the customer. And then they can distill complex information and convey it in a way that elevates the customers confidence in making a buying decision.
Steve Fretzin 11:29
And to kind of you know, go from there. The other thing that I think is really critical for for salespeople, and being prepared, is coming up with really in depth questions that they can ask in an interview, you know, prior to selling something prior to teaching, to understand that customer client at a at a very high level. And hopefully, they open up to you and they get real and honest with you about what's going on with them. And I think what happens in that scenario is the relationship takes goes to another level. And so then when you eventually do, you know, customize a solution or talk about you know, teaching or showing or solving, you know, the relationship is bonded, how what are some things that you do to to make sure that you're connected with the with the client or the prospective client?
Ryan Estis 12:15
Well, I think I think that's exactly right. I mean, your point is well taken skill with questions. So I think one just little tip around that. And this is a bit tactical. But if you think about a sales, conversation or engagement, you should go into those with an outcome objective, right? What What are you trying to accomplish, and to your point, it could be an initial pre call about discovery. So you're trying to learn, and that's a great objective, it could be a meeting where you're trying to advance the relationship or get closer to a decision or present your solutions. But you know, when you map out your commitment objectives, the investment of time, then you should kind of develop questions map, you know, have five or six effective open ended questions that that map, pour that outcome objective, and you've got to ask effective questions, you got to be good, active and perceptive listener, and then you've got to act layering and probing questions. Tell me more about that. What gives rise to that opinion? How have you solved problems like that in the past? And it really is the skill with questions in the preparation around questions that will elicit the information you need to customize and tailor solutions that drive value for the client. So that that really is the recipe?
Steve Fretzin 13:19
Yeah, and I kind of would equate it to, you know, going to see a therapist, if I went and saw a therapist, and the therapist was telling me how great he is, as a therapist, and how he solves all these problems, and is these fancy degrees, then an hour goes by, I'm gonna be like, well, this guy really knows his stuff. But, you know, don't feel any better. You know, versus going to someone who's got these questions that go deeper and deeper and deeper. And eventually, you know, I'm crying into my arm. And, and at the end of the session, who do I want to work with? You know, who do I want to see next week? Yeah, be that, you know, this the ladder?
Ryan Estis 13:49
You got it? Right. I mean, look, it's that, you know, I think it was Stephen Covey, who published this great rule of communication, like seek first understand, then be understood. And so a good prescription for that is if Think of it like a sales meeting, it should be 70%, listening, 30% talking, you know, clients will tell you everything you need to move the relationship forward. If you ask great questions, and are an astute listener.
Steve Fretzin 14:10
one of the wonderful things I heard you say, and in one of your YouTube videos was talking about, you know, you don't have to sell for the clothes, it could be for the commitment of moving someone forward to the next step and how important that is, I think, many people forget about that, that it's, it's, you know, you're not trying to you don't have to necessarily, you know, have some fancy clothing line or making the ask as they would call it, but if you can move people forward, you know, in an ongoing way, can you talk to that?
Ryan Estis 14:38
Yeah, I call that the law of incremental commitment. You know, one of the things that, you know, a sale is just a series of commitments. And if a sales cycle is managed properly, the decision to do business together should be the logical sequential outcome of the of the well managed process. So you know, part of what you're doing when you go into a sales meeting, as you're considering Okay, what what commitment Do I need to earn today? And oftentimes it isn't a signed contract, you're really nearly trying to advance the relationship to the next logical stage in the sequence or the cycle. So that that's the way we think about it. And a question and assessment question that we use at the end of sales calls is what commitment did we are, and commitments have mutually agreed upon define next steps at a pre determined date, that's how, you know, you've earned some level of commitment.
Steve Fretzin 15:28
And that's something that that I think most attorneys don't realize they need to do. It's not just the questioning and where it takes you. But you have to keep this moving forward in my pipeline, used to be notorious in my in the companies that I work with, because I always had the most full pipeline. And what I learned is, as someone you're trying to be a student of sales and business development, was it wasn't about quantity was about quality. And if I can move someone away, because they weren't committed to a next step, they weren't a good fit, then then it just saves me time and energy, especially, you know, the one where you live in hope. And then, of course, the ones that are more qualified, that are, you know, taking commitments further and further, you know, those are the ones that you're going to move forward anyway. So yeah, really way?
Ryan Estis 16:14
Well, that's a really key insight. I mean, the reality is, most people like to hold warm leads, because it feels good, and it's comfortable. And and it's it's the most it's the biggest reason that most people don't meet their sales performance target is because you've got this great pipeline with all of these warm leads, but they're not advancing are moving forward. And it is, I mean, it's it, the quicker you can get to a net, yes or no, the more strategic you could be in managing qualified opportunities through that cycle. But it requires a little bit of a push, and it's uncomfortable. So, you know, most people love to sit on warm leads in the land of indecision. And that can often be the kiss of death for performance to
Steve Fretzin 16:51
Yeah, but everybody feels good. Because you're, you know, everything's warm and fuzzy, but nothing. It's comfortable that it's not real. And it's not, it's not something you can rely on. And so, you know,
Ryan Estis 17:01
I think that's right, yeah, come comfortable, doesn't always lend itself well to sign up to contracts. So you just got to remember that, and it's okay to get a little, you know, you've got we've got to learn to be comfortable being a little uncomfortable and asking the courageous conversations and, you know, getting clarity around where somebody is in their decision making process after after a certain point in the conversation or engagement.
Steve Fretzin 17:22
Well, that might be a good lead in then to what are the some of the the key mistakes that you're seeing, you know, sales professionals and people in professional services are still making, what are some of the kind of the things that that just like, oh, boy,
Ryan Estis 17:34
I think number one, we just hit on the first one, I mean, it's one of the biggest one that's, you know, deals go to die in the land of indecision, because people aren't courageous enough to move the deal forward and earn the opportunity to close. So that's the first one. Second one has, I would say, lack of preparation, or lack of process, discipline, people don't put enough effort and energy into pre call planning, doing their homework showing up at the position of expertise point of view, position of value, you know, so the stuff that I would say those are to me, kind of the big three, big two or three, and and then you'll follow up and follow through can be critical to the way you do that, how you how you leak value into the sales process, and then maybe a fourth one, we can go all the way back to the start. You know, I personally for me, I mean, I like the I, I believe this that and I think this is relevant for the people listening to this to today, it really makes a big difference. If you're getting referred and you're getting found, if you're not getting referred, you're not getting found, then you are going to have to rely on more traditional interruption based go to market techniques. And increasingly, those have a diminishing return. So we focus a lot on the front end, you know, what are we doing to get found? What are we doing to build credibility in the marketplace, have a voice have an opinion, share content, share ideas, and then you know, we have a pretty pretty buttoned up system for managing referral growth. You know, obviously, referrals are the best opportunity to grow. But you've got to earn the right to ask and then ask. And so managing that a very specific way, I think is helpful, too.
Steve Fretzin 19:03
And then the what we call I guess, the new normal as it relates to what's going on today with with the COVID crisis and all of that, how are you altering how you know the things that you're talking to your clients about to to help them through the last couple months in moving forward?
Ryan Estis 19:18
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good question. And look, it's been a dramatic pivot for us. You can imagine, you know, somebody that was doing 80 live presentations, live event meetings, in 2019. I mean, it's been a dramatic shift out of that, but I think what we've had to do is, is really consider three key questions and I think it's probably helpful for everybody on the call. We asked ourselves, okay, what what are what did our customers need from us in January and February? And how is that different from what they need from us now? And you know, that there's a dramatic difference between those two things the world has changed. And then I think we've asked the second question, how can we elevate our evolver elevate our value prop position right now during this transitional moment in time to be a better partner provider to our customers. And that was a different set of conclusions. And then the third question is that how is that going to inform how we iterate our business forward? And what kind of business we're going to be 12 to 18 months from now kind of having that vision of the future. And so I think getting some solidification around those three buckets or areas of opportunity was useful to get us focused on how we can grow through this unique period of time.
Steve Fretzin 20:28
Gotcha. And I know, and this might be the last, the last kind of area that we cover for today. But this is really important is that the attitude, the mindset, the amount of head trash that people have right now, because it's it's it's political forces pulling against each other, it's economic forces pulling its business, and then having to go and try to find business during this time. So how are you? How have you recommended your clients, you know, sort of get their minds in the right state to go and do this type of work?
Ryan Estis 21:00
Yeah, I think it's critical. Look, mindset is everything. And, you know, when you're dealing with just the uncertainty and anxiety of force change, and the impact that can have, you know, it's it's easy to get frustrated, anxious, overwhelmed, that kind of slip into that place, and then our routines have been blown up. And I'll tell you, just just so you can understand my perspective. I live on the edge of downtown Minneapolis. And so this this on top of Coronavirus, this last week has been, you know, the unfortunate reality of what played out in our community, you know, I can send on my balcony and look out over our city, and the way it was transformed through this weekend. And, you know, it's both surreal and tragic, and, and, you know, heartbreaking in many, many ways. And so, you know, a couple of things, I mean, you have to balance and give, give yourself some space to process you know, your emotions and your feelings and, and I think you have to stay connected to support and people you care about and love but I'm a I'm a big fan and believer in routines and rituals, you know, I've always said to people look, if you win the morning, you win the day, and so looked at to get up and and get your mindset right in the morning, you have a pretty disciplined morning routine. And whether it's you know, meditation, exercise, journaling, spending a little time outdoors or nature and just kind of doing that might what I call a mindset reset, get yourself in the right frame of mind to go to work, I think is very, very useful. And then then another thing I think, you know, it's worth considering during a moment in time like this is no everybody's having a different experience this based upon kind of where you live your business and your own unique needs and personal situation. And, and I think just it's important to remember that we've evolved the way we from a sales perspective, when we go outbound do we do our out reach, we call it compassion and outreach and checking in. And I think those kind of two things have guided us through this. And I think it's just a very sensitive time in the world. And I think we need to, you know, we need to invest in ourselves each day, and our self care, especially if we're advisors, consultants, attorneys, you know, we're servants, you can't pour from an empty cups, make sure you're taking care of us, you can take care of the people.
Steve Fretzin 23:07
And I think Don't be afraid to try to find, you know, people like Ryan, myself and others that that maybe have skills or knowledge or, you know, motivation that you're just not finding on your own. I mean, that's why people hire personal trainers and coaches for all different kinds of things so well.
Ryan Estis 23:25
Yeah that's exactly right. And look, you know, I, I mean, I have a trainer, I have a coach, I have the therapist, because I know that accelerates my opportunity to be the best version of myself to show up in service to others. And so I think when you're making that kind of investment in you, it just positions you for success.
Steve Fretzin 23:43
So, yeah, awesome stuff, man. Well, I just want to thank you again, Ryan, for being on the show. And how do people get in touch with you? Or is there anything you'd like to promote? I know you've got a blog and some other things.
Ryan Estis 23:53
Yeah, we do. Look, we do we Yeah, we've got the E book to free download online and you can register for a weekly newsletter. It's all at ryanestis.com and we've got a book that's coming out later this year. That talks about sales and leadership. It's pretty tactical with some good recommendations. I think the audience would enjoy it. So but yeah, ryanestis.com is the that's kind of the hub or the centerpiece for everything. So..
Steve Fretzin 24:14
Wow. Awesome. And I just want to thank you and thank everybody for listening today. I hope you enjoyed today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Everybody be safe and take care.
Narrator 24:32
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.