In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ron Bockstahler discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"We're seeing some firms look at pooling their back office resources into a separate third party company, which never thought you would have seen some of the largest firms in the world looking to do something like that. I think that's going to be happening more and more." — Ron Bockstahler
Connect with Ron Bockstahler:
Twitter: @amataoffices
Facebook: Amata Law Office Suites
Website: AmataOffices.com
Email: RonB@AmataOffices.com
Show: The 1958 Lawyer
LinkedIn: Ron Bockstahler & Amata Law Office Suites
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Ron Bockstahler 0:00
One of the things that we're seeing, or Manas seen is, you know, space is one of those third party things is do you need to invest your money in space to have a successful law firm? And with COVID-19? Everyone's going well, what is a successful law firm? Does it include the space the furniture? Is that really part of the law firm? Or is it our intellectual capital? That's really the law firm.
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:48
Well, hello, everyone and welcome to my show. Be that lawyer. I'm Steve Fretzin, and I want to welcome my guest today. But before I get to that, I just wanted to remind everybody to really be safe out there with the COVID we're still dealing with this pandemic. And, again, a great time to build business, however, done safely. So eating outdoors, wearing masks, and doing a lot more zooms. So hopefully everybody's doing okay. And certainly if you have any questions about business development, my email is Steve at frets and comm feel free to email me happy to help or answer questions. My guest today is an old friend of mine and a dynamic networker and a dynamic business person. Ron Bockstahler. He's the CEO of a modern law centers. Ron, how are you?
Ron Bockstahler 1:33
Doing real good, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 1:34
Yeah, thanks for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. For listen for our listeners, can you give them a little bit of a Reader's Digest version about your background? And what led you to running a modern law centers?
Ron Bockstahler 1:46
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It's great to be on the show. I can tend to start with we used to use I used to outsource or run the outsourcing for large law firms. So I had 2500 employees working in the back office of some of the biggest law firms United States, either doing their docket, their records management or copy centers, mail rooms, reception is little of everything. So my background was working within a large law firm. So as it was progressing, and I wanted to do something different. starting my loft suites back in 2002 was like a natural progression for me of understanding what law firms needed but kind of doing the opposite. Instead of my employees working on law firms facilities now that law firms were working in my facility. So that's kind of the Reader's Digest version of how I got to where I'm at today.
Steve Fretzin 2:34
Gotcha. On top of the you know, the business stuff, is there something fun or interesting that many people don't know about you? I know a few things but but I'd love for you to share a thing or two.
Ron Bockstahler 2:43
Yeah, for those that know me, I think it was no secret. When I started my company, I really wanted to work fewer hours than I was. And I set out to take my family, five young kids six total and take them to all 50 states and we did that over seven years in an RV with the exception of Hawaii we flew to and one crazy thing you know I can I just believe you can do anything you set your mind to this morning actually signed up for half Ironman in Muncie when I heard it was gonna go on. And that's in like, 12 days. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? So yeah, the ultimate goal is how do we get to Hawaii? How do you qualify as a middle aged man to do the Ironman in Hawaii, the World Championship? So that's what I'm doing in my spare time hanging out with kids and training a lot.
Steve Fretzin 3:27
Yeah, well, you make all of us like good fathers look bad. Because I every time I hear you talk about things you're doing with your kids, I go, oh, Ron, he did it again. Especially the ultimate dad one upper. But that that just is another another testament to what a great person you are. And you'll be in being a great dad is, is the most important thing. And I think you you hit that in spades. Now changing back to business. When I start I've been with Amata. I want to say I've been with you guys for like eight years. And I absolutely love it. But I know that when I started with a model wasn't exclusively for or somewhat exclusively for attorneys. You changed it to a model law centers. When did that happen? And what made you kind of decide to work in the legal space more so then the general space.
Ron Bockstahler 4:14
So that goes back to 2010. And in looking in the rear the shared office space, that was kind of what we started as in bringing anyone in opening the doors given providing services, and you know, about 40% of our clientele were just naturally attorneys. And one thing I noticed about the business because I really didn't like it because there was no, it wasn't sticky. There was nothing I was giving anyone that couldn't go get somewhere else. I mean, it was office space, I was answering the phones. Yeah, we had great customer service. But at the end of the day, what was really that driver to say, Man, I need to be in a model office suites. And when we started thinking about that, we knew that our biggest client were attorneys. And if we look out there in today's world, they're in the United States alone. There's 1.3 million Attorneys practicing law and 50% of them are solo practitioners. It's the most fragmented industry that no one's talking about in the United States. There's no buying power, it's tough to get insurance. Everything's, it's kind of expensive if you're out there on your own. So how can you find or bring a product to the table that says, hey, this is this helps me out as a solo practitioner or a small law firm. So that's, that's what we looked at. And that's why we made the decision back in 2010, to open up the 180, North South facility, which was the first one that really kind of focus on attorneys.
Steve Fretzin 5:34
Yeah, and that's where I've been for eight years. So I, I have met a lot of attorneys. You know, and I think that you, you, you mentioned sticky, and I can tell, you know, my audience how sticky I mean, you have a water cooler post where where members can put up events, they can put up, you know, announcements, things to, to tell the other members, I think you're eight or 900, at this point, something that they're offering or something that they want to connect on, or that they're promoting. And so there's just so much internal sort of camaraderie that that you I don't think get in a Regis or get in any other kind of environment. Talk to that, if you would.
Ron Bockstahler 6:11
Let him kind of go back because I can give you a plug in your second book, I believe it was was on networking. I'll skip to the details. But I came to you and I said, Steve, I got a network and I hate networking. What do I do? And you just looked at me you had a little smirk. So why would you do any networking? Why don't you just use your Rolodex and start calling people you know, in March? What because I never thought of that. Wow, that was pretty simple. You know, so And when you look at the trays, and where are they getting probably 80% of the work, it's coming from other attorneys. So if you can be on a full floor, and you're a solo practitioner, but you're on a fourth floor with solos and small firm attorneys, where you can go down the hall and and say you're a personal injury attorney and you've got a case with a minor and you need to open up a probate estate, you can walk down the hall to another law firm has become your buddy because you see him every day and say, Hey, can you help me with this, and boom, you've got natural networking within a model Office Suite, because it says it's a suite of attorneys. Yeah, that just makes a lot of sense to me. And it makes a lot of sense to our clients, which is why we've grown so many, we have so many attorneys now in Chicago.
Steve Fretzin 7:18
You know, my father was a solo practitioner until he retired 65 to the day. And one of the things that he did was he plopped himself down in an office with a bunch of other attorneys, small firms that all shared office space together. And he just built relationships with those attorneys. And that was his year. And that's all he needed to do to get business every year. And you know, client referrals and things like that. But that's that's the exact environment lawyers should want to be in. So they don't feel like they're on an island, you know, that they can they can bounce ideas and, and have that camaraderie. So, you know, kudos for putting that together. Just for from maybe from a marketing perspective, or from a business growth perspective. You're around lawyers as often as I am. What are you seeing them struggle with as a relates to to growth these days?
Ron Bockstahler 8:09
I would say a good portion of the attorneys I talked to, and you're right, we talked to a lot of attorneys every day we work with them, if they're in a big law firm, we're talking to them so they can break out on their own, we get ready to go before they leave and announced to the firm leaving or, you know, we have the incubator program with Chicago, Kent, where the attorneys that went to that school can go through incubator program, and we'll give them space during the time during the program. The one thing that I see that's this time and time again, is they're afraid to go out or say I don't know if afraid is the right word, but hesitant to go out and network and ask for business or just build those relationships on a day in day out basis, which is what's needed to be able to get that that work coming in at a steady pace so that you can either support your staff and yourself. That's probably the biggest thing I see is they're they're hesitant, go out and do that.
Steve Fretzin 8:58
Yeah. And it's it's coming around slowly. And I think, you know, the legal industry is one of the slowest moving industries that that exists. You know, many of them are just, you know, year after year kind of living the same life and not realizing what's changing. And I thought the recession in 2008, which is when I got into working with attorneys, that it would change everything. And they would realize the importance of networking, the importance of growing a book, having you know, your own clients, and it's in sure enough, it was it was for a few years, and then people started to get comfortable again. And now we've got another big potential recession coming our way and the corona era. And I don't know, I think it's it's moving slowly, but it does shock me. But I again, I think if we look at a lawyers perspective, and you and I both are not lawyers, you don't look nobody goes to law school to say, Oh, I you know, I can't wait to graduate from law school so I can go, you know, develop business, right. I mean, that's not what what this is all about. This has been thrust upon, you know, the legal profession in the last, you know, 20 years. I think it's, it's it's kind of, you know, it's been, it's been a tough pill to swallow jagad pill.
Ron Bockstahler 10:05
You know, Steve, up to this point we were talking about the smaller for consoles, but we can look at the big firms, and you take an attorney is super smart, go in a high salary, they worked for 10 years, they're an associate, but they're working so many hours, that they never take the time to make the time to go out and build their own book of business. And then all of a sudden, it's time to become a partner, which was we know it'd be dragged out even farther now. They don't have their own book of business as a partner. So this thrust on would say, Hey, what are you bringing to the table now. And that's where I think they've got to, they got to learn it early on, you got to go out and start building that poker business and build those relationships so that when that time comes, it's an easy transition. And right now, it doesn't seem that there's any real smooth transition going on from being an associate to becoming a partner.
Steve Fretzin 10:53
Well take it a step further, Ron, I mean, I think the big firms discourage it greatly. I mean, they're the last thing they want is their associate who's cranking out, you know, 70 plus hours a week, you know, to go out and spending time, you know, having lunches and building a book, or, or bringing in a small, you know, $100,000 engagement that most attorneys would drool over, because they're dealing with million dollar multimillion dollar, you know, clients that that, you know, they don't want, they want to avoid conflicts opportunity. So, it's, it's, it's a really difficult and challenging thing for the big firm attorneys that are looking to, you know, kind of make hay. But this is this is, you know, again, there's a lot of different industries that are, you know, that are challenged by this type of thing, in laws, no different. So I think it's gonna, it's gonna, it's going to change, like most things, it's going to be out of necessity, that associates are going to start looking at, you know, doing this earlier, or they're going to be in a real pickle, down the road. I mean, people that come to me, and they're 55, 60 years old, looking for help, absolutely happy to step in and help them for the next 20 years, their career. However, every single one of them says, I wish I had found you 10, 20, you know, 10, 15 years ago. So I think it's just, it's just unfortunate that that's sort of the, you know, the industry industry standard with with the big firms. So Steve is going to be interesting, if we see the new generation coming up, and they think a little bit different talking about the millennials, are they going to force firms to change their practice, because they don't want to work 70 hours a week, they're looking for more than maybe they're not even looking to be a partner anymore. Because the, you know, the time it takes to become partners stretched out so far, that maybe they're looking to enjoy their lives. And that's going to change the dynamics of what's going on with those law firms. And I think a lot of these younger attorneys may say, Look, I'm going to go off my own, or I'm going to be a boutique firm, that's becoming more of a common practice. So I think to see, we'll see that pushed even further. I mean, unfortunately, I think it might happen, yeah, might happen in five to 10 years, because a lot of the a lot of the rainmakers from the 80s and 90s are going to be retiring. And I think there's a group of Gen Xers that are going to be taking over, you know, the mid market, and even the large firm space, and then they're going to be, you know, I don't know how resistant they're going to be to that to those pressures. But I think they get it more than the old timers. That I don't mean to say that old timers, but you know, the people that just think, you know, just keep your head down and work. And that's the, you know, that's the that's the bar that's being set, that that having a book of business contributing, being out there, building relationships, is now a vital part of building a successful law practice for all. And and that's that that should be happening at the law school level. And it may be discussed, I don't think there's any real unless I'm being told otherwise. There. I haven't heard of any, any courses or classes or anything that's real intensive to try to teach lawyers, you know, the kinds of skills they're going to need to go solo or to, to look at building a book when they get out into the market. But that may be up the up the road, hopefully not too long.
Ron Bockstahler 13:56
I think we've been hearing about that for a long time. But we haven't seen it a measure you said earlier, the legal industry is very, very slow to change.
Steve Fretzin 14:03
Yeah, that's tricky. Let me ask you this, because I know is we're talking about big firms. That's sort of something that you've been, you've been noticing that, you know, with all the expensive space, and in all the expense that comes with running a big firm, even a mid market firm, even a small firm, quite frankly, but but I think that one thing that you've been really focused on is helping firms not just look at their revenue, but look at their expenses and look at their ability to outsource things that maybe they don't need to always have in house that could actually save them money because it's good, you can make a million dollars. But if you're spending, you know 900,000 on overhead, well then you're not really making that much money on the million.
Ron Bockstahler 14:44
That's a good point. You got to look at the both ends revenues and expenses when what we're seeing today in the industry, and this is starting with the large law firms as they're looking at alternative ways to get rid of their administrative non partner functions. either sell that off or Buy into a an outside company that will allow them to pull cash out and use that cash for more litigation practices, or just to exit senior partners without having to put the the firm practice at risk or the cash flow in jeopardy. And that I think is happening in large firms. Today, we're seeing some firms look at maybe pooling their back office resources into a separate third party company, which you never thought you would have seen some of the largest firms in the world looking to do something like that. I think that's going to be happening more and more. I mean, you got litigation finance out there, right now, those firms have been around for quite a bit of time to start over in Australia. And now they've kind of moved on to the United States. So we're seeing that these litigation finance companies are looking at cases on an individual basis and saying, Yeah, we'll invest in that case, and, and at some level, you can, you can actually invest in and help pay for part of an attorney salary. So those things are slowly changing, but you still have laws, the United States where non attorney cannot own a law firm that, you know, practicing law. So they're looking for ways to get around that, you know, that want to raise the ire of investigators or people that are in charge of this? So one of the things that we're seeing, or Manas seen is, you know, space is one of those third party things is do you need to invest your money in space to have a successful law firm? And with COVID-19? Everyone's going well, what is a successful law firm? Does it include the space the furniture, is that really part of the law firm? Or is it our intellectual capital? That's really the law firm. And law, you know, attorneys are looking at this, they're thinking about Gee, we're in talks right now with some very large international firms take portions of their space, and license back offices to them. Because they want the money out of it, they want to pull cash out, we're willing to do that forum. And this is something that we really, it's kind of been going that way over the last two years, we've been in a lot of talks, we've only had one major am 25 Law Firm, jump, but now we're in talks a lot more. So we'll see that as a growth opportunity for us. And for these law firms a way to put less cash into the law practice, either by you know, taking that money in investing in litigation, or investing in it buying out to your partners.
Steve Fretzin 17:14
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely feeling for some of that, you know, the law firms that just re upped, you know, it's under on a five or seven year lease, and, and now half of their staff doesn't want to come in anymore, or can't come in or decides that, you know, working from home is just as valuable. So it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see how the real estate market shifts and, and who ends up getting hurt at the end of at the end of the day, and who ends up benefiting from it. I'm sure it'll even out at some point. But do you have any hypotheses on that?
Ron Bockstahler 17:44
Well, I don't have a crystal ball. But what we've seen up to this point is we've seen 10 to 20, Attorney law firms look to exit their space. And we've actually signed a couple of them up to this point in the last last month, that are saying, you know, half of us are going to become an end of the office, half of us don't need to come into the office or don't want to come into the office, they're getting rid of some of their support staff, they're using a modest support staff. So we are seeing more of that than we've ever seen, which is what's prompted us to be taken on new space in this pandemic, it's never thought we'd be saying that, but we're in talks with three different locations right now. So yeah, we're seeing some big changes. But I think these changes were happening anyway. attorneys are realizing that they can work from home, some of their staff can work from home, at least a couple days a week, I don't think working from home as a long term solution. 100%, I do believe that you still going to want your space, you're still going to if you meet with clients, you're gonna want to meet with your clients, you're going to walk, you know, in law, collaboration is very big, getting the opportunity to walk down the hall and talk about a case and maybe you learn about some obscure pressing legal precedent that you wouldn't have known of if you didn't have a chance to grab a cup of coffee and sit with someone. Those things are very important in the practice of law. So I don't see that going away. We're not seeing attorneys come out and say, Gee, I want to cancel, I don't want my space anymore. If anything, they're sitting back and going, Okay, we're going to do a renewal, and maybe we'll do a shorter term to see how things play out. But at the end of the day, if you're in family law, you're still going to be going to court. Yeah, there are many different types of practices. So there, you're still gonna see attorneys having to come in, go to an office or just want to go to the office. I mean, I work from my house with five kids. I don't want to be sitting here all the time. I don't think I'm alone. I think we all get a little itchy that we want to get out and go have lunch and and talk to people. So...
Steve Fretzin 19:33
Yeah, I don't want to lose my name on the wall of fame at Petereno's I've got a I've got a reputation to protect Ron, you know so anyway, um, I think I think that we're seeing change sometimes it takes a catastrophe to move the needle are to move things along a little more quickly. And I think unfortunately, recessions hurt people and there's going to be a lot of fallout from from the one we're going through right now. However, if it if it is expedites change in a positive way. For some people, then there's some positive things. I mean, I know you're a big family person, as we mentioned earlier. And I've spent more time I it's funny, my wife said to me, right before COVID hit, I think it must have been in late February. I just wish we could spend more time together, I wish we could have more dinners more than I just hate shuffling our son around here and there. I'm like, Okay. And then a month later, boom, now here, it's a horrible way to do it. But now you've got to, you've got the whole thing worked out.
Ron Bockstahler 20:28
See, that brings up just a great point I want to hit on is because we know that depression, alcoholism is very rapid in the legal industry. I mean, it's out there and getting the chance to step back. It made me realize that there's more to it, there's some family time there. Let's enjoy that. And then look relook at your your law practice and say, Okay, let's put things in perspective. And what can I do? What can I utilize technology for what can I use third party resources for? And how can I enjoy the practice of law, he gets to have more of a rounded life, if anything positive comes out of this, and I'm sure there always are positive things that come out of the these downturns. That may be one of the things that might help many attorneys is rethinking this their, you know, holistic, whole life.
Steve Fretzin 21:14
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's self reflection, and again, you know, how happy were you before? How happy are you now or unhappy? And what kind of changes can you make, to try to better yourself, and for some, it's going to be about, you know, saving money and reducing costs. For others, it's going to be about, you know, saying now's a great time to spend more time with family and do things that you'd always hope to do. And my spin is clearly, you know, look, if business has slowed down, your hours aren't what they used to be, or you're looking to go next level. Now, now's the best time and you don't have to hire me enough to say, Hey, Steve, I want you to be my, my sales coach for for being a lawyer. But, you know, buy a book, you know, it doesn't even have to be mine, do something positive to try to reinvent yourself or reinvigorate yourself to get to get to the next level. You know, don't don't just you know, kind of mope about things. And I don't know, you know, that's gonna be everybody, but you know, maybe 10% Well, we'll take we'll take take that, you know, to heart and start considering, you know, maybe now's a great time to get into shape, run a run a half marathon or whatever, you know, what are you doing Iron Man, I only macro Forget it. I started doing some some significant stretching, and I'm playing a lot more sports now that things courts have opened up and things like that. But it's, you know, you just gotta you just got to realize what, you know, what you have to be grateful for, and try to focus on the positive, make things happen. So I know that's that's kind of your thing.
Ron Bockstahler 22:37
Steve, I know you're, you're still busy. And there's a lot going on. I'm really curious as to the there's so much have changed, and attorneys are having to work on zoom and different types of platforms. Are we looking at now saying, hey, there's got to be a different way of networking and getting out meeting my clientele, or you'll make new prospects finding new clientele? Are they? Are you seeing a big surge to say, How do I do it now, when I can't be at the Union League club or different clubs meet with people?
Steve Fretzin 23:05
Well, I think we start you know, we go back to the beginning, Ron, where you had mentioned our conversation, people have their own clients, people have their own contacts, people that they've been meeting with for years, that they haven't taken the time to re energize those relationships, now is the perfect time, ask how you can help, you know, try to try to get in there and be a value to somebody you know, and my guess is educated guess that they're going to want to reciprocate. They're going to want to ask you the same question, how can I help you, and then you just have to be prepared to really help people help you, you've got to be a coach to, you know, tell them who you want to meet and why and have them facilitate introductions. And networking is doing fine. Meaning people are very comfortable jumping on a zoom more so than they thought. And I don't have to drive to, you know, 45 minutes away to get to a lunch meeting, have the lunch for two hours, and then drive home, I got four hours, invest in a lunch, which I'm not saying that is a great thing for relationship building. However, people get it and we're able to be efficient and do a 45 minute zoom, and get down to business or get down to how we can help each other whatever the conversation is. It's it's adjusting, but it's it's actually made us more efficient. And so I'm working with a lot of clients on efficiencies and making the most out of what they're doing. There's a lot more content that can be produced right now. It's kind of like we're in a content world. And so I'm doing a lot of content. I have this show, you have a podcast show, which I'll ask you about in a minute. But this is a time to build your brand. This is a time to get reconnected and to see how you can help people. And unfortunately, it takes a pandemic sometimes to do that. But that's what we're dealing with right now. So I wouldn't say it's changed everything radically. I'd say I'm spinning 30% of what I would normally teach to get people on a better track for what's going on now. But a lot of it comes down to the basics that they should have been doing all along. Just how we're communicating is sometimes different.
Ron Bockstahler 25:13
Lastly, Steve, you seen your crystal ball a year from now? And we're assuming we're all back, and there's a vaccine or whatever happens. But if people are back, are they still looking at Digital networking? Or zoom? Joe meetings for networking? Are we going back to Hey, we're all going to be in person and we don't want to do so? Or is it a combination?
Steve Fretzin 25:33
Yeah, I think it is a combination, I don't think you can put the toothpaste back in the tube. I know for me, for example, I'm, you know, I was teaching a class in the city, in your office with 10 people. And I don't know when that's coming back. And I be nice if it did, but realistically, when are 10 people going to be comfortable getting together in a room to do that. So I've got to be flexible, and I'm gonna have to go virtual until until that changes, and there's a cure, or something else happens. But I think a combination of face to face and a combination of zoom and the efficiencies that come with, with what we're doing now is, it's not going to go back to the old way. And hopefully, again, like with 2008, you know, people saw that there was a problem and stepped up to fix it. And then they got back to business as usual. And now there's a problem again, and my hope is that people's eyes stay open this time, that, that there's challenges in the legal profession that you know, where you need to control your own destiny and have your own book of business. And the more efficient you can be with that, the better. And that could be on your side with with efficiencies and cost and and how running a law practice. And on my side with with marketing and business development, or everything in between, I think everybody's got to look at efficiencies. There's no way around it.
Ron Bockstahler 26:53
Yeah, I agree with you and I got on the same board, I think there's gonna be a combination of things I can tell you, I'm on two different boards. And one of the boards we always meet on a zoom or some kind of a video meeting. And I enjoy that because I can see who wants to speak and when they're speaking. And then I've got another board. And it's one of the partners as senior partner over Taft, and he only does voice calls. It drives me nuts. I feel like we're all talking over ourselves. Whereas, you know, six months ago, I would find with a voice call. Now, I'm kind of like, why are we doing a zoom call? Yeah, yeah, I look at myself, I've changed that much in a short period of time. So I agree things you can't put the toothpaste back in. I think that's 100% agree with that we're gonna move on and there's going to be more technology. I'm talking to attorneys, now they're looking at hadn't had a practice manager software. Now they're going, gosh, I need to do that. And you need to put things in the cloud. You can't just run things off your PC sitting in your computer or your office anymore. So we're seeing a lot of that change. We're having a lot of talks about how to do that, which is I think, awesome. It's a better way to law run a law firm might be a little more money upfront, but long term, it's gonna be a lot cheaper and safer.
Steve Fretzin 28:03
Yep. So I think I think we're gonna wrap up on that point, Ron, and again, I just can't thank you enough for for spending some time with me and in sharing some some best practices with with my audience and how do people get in touch with you or, or hear your podcast or what? You know what? Maybe you could share your website, things like that?
Ron Bockstahler 28:20
Sure. www.amataoffices.com. That's ma ta offices is plural .com. We do have a podcast, the 1958 lawyer, it's all about the change in the business of law. You can tune out you can check that out on Apple podcasts and several other podcast facilities out there. I think it's kind of Semin ated throughout there, and anyone can reach me directly at Ronb@amataoffices.com. And this has been great, Steve, thanks for having me on your show. I really appreciate.
Steve Fretzin 28:49
Yeah, my pleasure, Ron. And again, I've enjoyed being your friend and working with you over the all these years and looking forward to many more. And everybody, I just want to thank you for listening, taking some time with Ron and I today. I hope you enjoyed the show and that you got some good takeaways and most importantly, that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care. Be safe.
Narrator 29:18
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for thrilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.