In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rich Lenkov discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"If you don’t service your existing clients first and take care of them, then all the marketing in the world won’t help." — Rich Lenkov
Connect with Rich Lenkov:
Twitter: @rlenkov
Website: BDLFirm.com & ChilaProductions.com
Show: Legal Face-off Podcast
LinkedIn: Rich Lenkov
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Rich Lenkov 0:00
You know the best way to gain independence financially and career wise is develop your own book of business because there's nothing better than you know that just brings with it confidence and brings with it autonomy. It brings with the ability to control your destiny. You don't have to have a ton of work, you know, it all grows.
Narrator 0:23
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:45
Well, good morning, everybody. Steve Fretzin in here, be that lawyer. I am very excited to present a very exciting and interesting guest and Rich Lenkov. Rich How you doing this morning?
Rich Lenkov 0:56
I'm doing great, Steve, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Steve Fretzin 0:59
Absolutely. Absolutely. If you wouldn't mind just to give the audience a little background on yourself.
Rich Lenkov 1:04
Yeah, I'm an attorney. I've been practicing for Well, almost 2020 years, over 20 years who can keep track? hard. It's all a blur in the 90s. But I'm an attorney with a firm called Bryce down in lancope. We are a firm based in downtown Chicago. And we also have an office in Northwest Indiana. And we're a midsize firm. We have about 30 attorneys and we cover all of Illinois, Indiana, we do a bunch of different things. I personally handle insurance defense work in an entertainment law. And yeah, that's a little bit about myself.
Steve Fretzin 1:40
And I just just to make things a little more interesting that that that that being a lawyer isn't super interesting. Is there something that you'd mind sharing that's fun or unique about you personally, are things that you do outside of practicing law?
Rich Lenkov 1:53
Yeah, I use a bunch of things outside the law. You know, I have a podcast that has been on w gn for almost six years. It's called legal faceoff. And we've been fortunate to have the great fredson on there before. And I co host that with a amazing training Tina Martini. So that's been a lot of fun. And that's led to me doing a lot of legal analysis work not just on w GM but on other media as well. So that's been a lot of fun, you know, just being called when there's breaking legal news. In addition to that, I have a production company called shaila Productions. And through that production company, we put on live shows a few shows in Vegas. Also, we produce some documentaries, including one with the My beloved 85 bears. And I also just recently, and one of the CO owners of a nightclub called fame here in Chicago, that opens right before the pandemic hits. So we're waiting for things to subside before really hits big. But yeah, in addition to all that, I've got a family that it's been a lot of times with so busy times do for sure.
Steve Fretzin 2:58
Yeah, you've got a lot of a lot of plates that you're spinning at the same time. So that's that's the system. Sometimes we're just built that way. Right.
Rich Lenkov 3:05
Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, maybe people would call it a little attention deficit challenge. So I like to have a lot of things going on. I like to be interested in what I do not on my legal career isn't interesting. And, you know, very consuming it is. And I'm very devoted to that. And my clients. But yeah, I've got a lot of energy. I don't sleep very much. I like to devote a lot of time to some other extracurricular things for sure.
Steve Fretzin 3:30
Yeah. Was there a point or experience in your life that sort of directed where you went, personally or in business?
Rich Lenkov 3:37
I would say, you know, I was at another firm, early on in my career, it was two firms since 1996, when I became licensed. And my first firm, smaller, firm, nice firm grip, people enjoyed working there. But you know, it was, it was it was a firm in the suburbs of Chicago. And I really only did one thing, and I had one client that were really good clients, and a fairly sizable client, that I was lucky enough to develop while I was still a student, believe it or not, but you know, I realized after a few years of the firm that I wanted to expand and do some other things and grow my practice, and just develop my professional career a little bit more. So I think that was a moment where I looked around and said, this has been a great experience. But you know, perhaps buy a move with a firm, my current firm at the time was only a year old. And it was, you know, startup, that perhaps that move would allow me to expand my horizons a little and it turned out to be a great move for me. So I would mark that as a clear demarcation point for me.
Steve Fretzin 4:38
Gotcha, gotcha in the secondary question would be, you know, obviously, this is a show about business development and growing a law practice and was there a point or experience in your life that specifically you determine that you are going to build your own book or or create your own, you know, wealth through, you know, being a lawyer and working at a firm?
Rich Lenkov 4:58
Yeah, I mean, very early on. I realize that you know, as attorneys, we're not just providers of a legal service. We're also, you know, if you're going to be good at it, I think you've got to be an entrepreneur and also a salesperson, you know, I realized fairly early, there wasn't I don't think one aha moment, Steve, but I just realized fairly early on, I attributed some of this to some of the training I received, you know, before law school, and, you know, during law school, I, my brother's a lawyer, so he had the same spirit as I did, I learned from him that in order to be successful, at least in you know, my area of the world, you've got to do a lot of different things. Well, you know, there's a lot of attorneys out there, of course, and the numbers continue to grow, that can competently provide a legal product, right. And they were basically all producing the same type of product, what differentiates I think, good lawyers, and good marketers, is the manner in which they present it. So I realized fairly early that I'm going to give a competent product. But if I do so, you know, in a way that is a little different, and a little, you know, more customer service oriented, I think I could separate from the pack. And that, you know, that turned out to be, you know, pretty good for my practice.
Steve Fretzin 6:12
And I think that, you know, lawyers have so many different ways of building a book into growing their personal brand, to differentiate themselves in the market and also build that, you know, again, financial security, it's clear that you've specifically built your brand, using non traditional or non legal methods of marketing and branding. Can you speak to some of the things that you've done to kind of get results from the efforts you've put out?
Rich Lenkov 6:35
Yeah, I mean, I think some of the non traditional things that I do are actually fairly organic, and I don't, purposely, or consciously see them as marketing my practice. And by that, I mean, you know, as we talked, when earlier, I am involved in some other things in the world, besides my traditional legal practice that are different, that are fun, that are exciting, right. And, you know, I don't think every lawyer, for example, has produced a documentary that had Barack Obama and Bill Murray, or, you know, I produced a show called renegades in Las Vegas that had Terrell Owens and Jose Canseco, and Jim McMahon. So that kind of stuff is fun. And I think it's a little different than most attorneys. So I think, organically, you know, some clients see that and think, well, that's pretty cool. And maybe I should take a look at this. But that's not purposeful I it's not like I'm, you know, spending, I mean, imagine producing a documentary with a very small team takes hours, hundreds of hours of work. So it's not like I'm doing that simply to market my legal services. But it's a nice byproduct of it. And to the extent that I can get some of my clients involved in that, and you know, that they find that fascinating. For example, I brought one of my clients who's a big New York Giants fan, you know, lifelong Giants fan to an interview with Phil Simms, who's a former giant that we did for the documentary. So, you know, I think that's a once in a lifetime opportunity for a client and something he'll remember. And if, you know, he wants to send me additional legal work as a byproduct. That's great. That's not why I did it. But you know, that's always that's always nice. So I think those are a couple of non traditional things that I've done that have assisted you know, in some marketing
Steve Fretzin 8:13
Yeah. In arm, have you? How have you found the the response from the web gn podcast show? And I mean, I love being on it. I thought it was it was a it was a hoot. And then also the writing, there are things that you're doing that are not traditional, but they're not on traditional, but are you? Are you finding that that's really helping to build your brand as well?
Rich Lenkov 8:31
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me, and you're the, you know, you're more of an expert on this than I am, for me, marketing is all about, not, you know, exactly quantifying your work, and then how much you know, your marketing work versus what exactly you're getting. It's not like, you know, we're selling soup or cars. And you could say, well, we advertise on the radio or on TV, and we sold X amount of cars as a result, attorneys marketing is less cause and effect, right. So for me, I think that me being out there in the world and having a presence and having, you know, to use a cliche term, you know, maybe a brand helps my overall marketing because it separates me from, you know, most of my competitors. Now, the flip side to that, Steve, is that, you know, you don't want to be perceived by clients, you know, simply doing all these other things that really aren't that related to what service you're providing to them. There's a danger if you're doing too many other things, that your clients will be turned off because they'll think well, you know, Flynn comes out there on the radio or doing movies, how's he going to work for me so I try to temper that with the you know, bedrock principle that I've got to serve my clients and you know, I never lose sight of that and I think that's the best marketing frankly, all the other stuff I'm doing is great and work on doing on WGS has been a lot of fun, I think has helped. But at the end of the day, honestly, it's very simple. If you don't service your existing clients first and take care of you know them, then all the marketing in the world won't help. And if you just indulge me for another 60 seconds, I always tell my example I always give my attorneys when I talk about marketing, and that principle, which is taken care of, you know, your existing clients is his new Coke, right, the debacle that was new Coke, you know, Coca Cola was a brand that was around, you know, for what, 100 years now, doing great, one of the most successful, recognizable brands in the world, you couldn't go anywhere in the world, and you wouldn't see a bottle of coke yet. At some point, the marketing geniuses in Atlanta decided, let's change this, let's go away from what's made us successful, let's, you know, piss off our existing client base by developing new coke. And that's one of the, you know, most dramatic advertising failures in history, marketing failures in history. And they quickly went back to, you know, old coke. So I give that example is, no matter what marketing you do, and it's always great to develop new clients, that's always exciting. You know, I think your listeners remember that there's nothing more important than keeping your existing clients happy. And that's, you know, marketing to your existing clients is also very important.
Steve Fretzin 11:05
Well, right. And I think when we talk about and I know, when I teach, you know, my clients how to how to go, you know, market or do business development, we always look at low hanging fruit. And if you've done the right things by your clients, meaning you're keeping in touch with them, obviously providing a high level of service, but are you looking out for them in other ways, personally, and from business perspective, you know, referring them opportunities, trying to help them hire, you know, GCS and other you know, subordinates if they need, like, what are you offering beyond, you know, just the great service, which I think is become sort of the baseline? Is there some, would you add on to that, are there things that you've done to try to build those relationships stronger than just great service?
Rich Lenkov 11:46
It's a great question. And it really is so important, because a lot of people think that I'm going to be a great lawyer, when I provide a great service, and my job is over, I think, for years has recognized have recognized the idea that I'm a lawyer second, and a business partner first, you know, I'm fortunate enough to represent some of the biggest companies on the planet, you know, some some fortune 20 companies, as well as some, you know, smaller, you know, amazing clients, too, but big or small, I think my clients understand that I am with them, and I understand their business. I'm not just you know, another vendor, providing a service to them that I really want to get to know their business, I want to, you know, give them solutions to their problems across the board noxious legal to the extent that I can. So, you know, I really want to align myself with my clients principles and get to know how they operate and know what they do. And I never want a client to, you know, be wondering if I know what's going on in their c suites, or how the stock is doing. So I want to be a business partner. First, I think that goes a long way in telling clients that you're, you know, more than just a provider of a legal service.
Steve Fretzin 12:57
Yeah. And a story that I I've told to my clients and other people that have heard me speak in the past is my father is a retired attorney. He's 85, and lives down in Florida half the year. And he, he was such an amazing, not just a lawyer, but a counselor for his clients, that he was invited to do a eulogy. So you know, the client died. And the son would say, Oh, you know, Larry, you were so important to my father, as his as his, you know, conciliatory, essentially. And would you, you know, would you mind saying some words. So, I mean, that's just the epitome of what it what it means to be, you know, a partner to your client versus just a lawyer or doing a transaction or getting something done. You know, I think that we've got to step up our game these days.
Rich Lenkov 13:37
There's no question. I mean, I think clients expect it. I think that if you're just providing a legal service, you're, you're behind the ball. And, you know, for me, it sounds like a cliche, but I, I'm a huge movie fan. And I draw my inspiration from a lot of movie characters. And to me and to your points, you know, one of the underrated characters in one of the five best films of all time, let's see if you can guess where I'm going with this. Any idea?
Steve Fretzin 14:04
Yeah, I'm trying to think so. So one of the best movie characters of all time,
Rich Lenkov 14:09
one of the most underrated movie characters, one of the best movies, the answer is Tom Hagen, Robert Duvall in The Godfather. Right.
Steve Fretzin 14:15
Right, right.
Rich Lenkov 14:16
He was consigliere it, just like you mentioned with your dad, and if you remember the Godfather, and it's like one of my favorite films, Hagen wasn't just a lawyer, he was in the room, in the room where it happened, right. But he was intimately involved, right? When, when, when Don Corleone wanted, you know, his nephew in the movie, he didn't send his sons. He said, Hey, get to Hollywood to get that done. Right. So, not to say that I've modeled my career after a mobster consigliere. But Steve, you can learn a lot about the law from that's just one of the role models I think, is a great example of what we're talking about.
Steve Fretzin 14:54
Yeah, my I can't say too much to this, but my wife's been watching. She's like on a rant, just on Tear watching the show suits. Which, you know, again, you know, the lawyers are stepping up to do a lot more than just, you know, handle the Basic Law, right? I don't know if that's good or bad, I haven't seen too much of it tend to be able to speak intelligently about it, but she's loving it. So let me ask you, I mean, are there are there times as a as a business developer, where you've either tried things or, or where you've either second guessed yourself or just moments of vulnerability, as you're as you're looking to grow a practice where maybe you've made some some either, you know, bad decisions, or just just were even like, I'm not sure if this is the right direction?
Rich Lenkov 15:34
all the time? You know, I think as a good marketer, you fail way more than you succeed. Right. I mean, you have it. Yeah. I mean, if you're not failing, you're not trying is, I think, a good way of looking at it. And you know, marketing is hard. It's not easy. It's easy to put aside. It's, it's rejection, it's the rejection is what you're faced with, right? So you have to have a thick skin when it comes to that people say no, because, you know, maybe you make 20 calls, and they're all nose 21st call is yes. Or maybe you make 20 calls the same potential client and you know, call 21. They finally say, all right, all right, leave me alone. I'm gonna give you work. But that's the way it is. But in terms of a specific example, or things that I've done that haven't been successful. Now, there's so many I mean, we do. We do a lot of presentations, I think, early on, I remember doing a presentation and I, we were talking about, you know, investigating your claim and how to do it comprehensively. And I wore a lab coat to the presentation thinking that it would be like a CSI thing. And I just cringe thinking back and early days of wearing a lab coat, because I just probably looked like a complete idiot. And, and that was probably a little bit too sort of jokey for the crowd. So yeah, that was really not in my hall of fame marketing moves.
Steve Fretzin 16:55
But I commend you for taking the shot. I mean, that's, that's, you know, that's not something that that everyone's going to take a shot on. But I but yet, I think your personality, and your idea was was a good one. But I feel like you know, I think lawyers generally have very good sense of humor, I don't think you can be a lawyer and not have a good sense of humor. Otherwise, you're the dad at the party. However, you know, I think there might also be some limits. So let me ask you this just to to, to kind of get down to it. I know that you you mentioned earlier that you advise attorneys that your firm, for my audience that's looking to get a solid tip or takeaway, you know, learning from someone like yourself, what's one thing that you'd say, hey, if you want to succeed, you know, succeed at growing your law practice? Here's one thing you have to do?
Rich Lenkov 17:39
Well, one, easy one, and it might be obvious. I mean, the best ones are the most obvious. And the best ones are the ones that aren't done very well, right. I mean, a lot of the a lot of marketing is basic, common sense. There's not like a science to it, and there's not one right answer, but to me, the most obvious one is got to work hard at it, it's a job, it's, you know, not something that can be done successfully, if you don't give it enough time and resources and not to say that you have to, you know, do it at the exclusion of your practice. But if you want to do it, and you want to do it well, and you want to to actually be successful, you got to devote time to it, and resources and, you know, do the work. I mean, you know, research your potential clients don't go into a meeting with a company and not know what they do not know, what the history is not know how long your context has been employed there, you know, research their backgrounds, see if there's a connection, these are all easy things. I mean, when you when I started, it was much harder to get this information. Now, there's no excuse why you shouldn't have every piece of information about the companies and individuals that you're targeting. Because, you know, it's so easy to get that online. The flip side is you don't want to do so in a heavy handed way. Right? I mean, it looks a little bit aggressive. If you go into a meeting and say, Oh, I see that you, you know, went to Syracuse. Well, you know, you make up some connection to Syracuse or something like that. You got to be authentic, you got to be genuine. But I think my experience clients always appreciate when you come in, you know, previewing, again, that you're not just going to be a lawyer to them, that you're going to be a business partner, and you're interested in in more than just getting, you know, another billable hour from it.
Steve Fretzin 19:23
Well, and I think I think the problem is is that, you know, the lawyer mentality is, you know, if I if I have enough hours, I'm good to go. And they're not taking into consideration that the economy could, you know, fail like it did in 2008. and is now again, you know, 40 million plus, you know, out of work, how many lawyers are furloughed? How many lawyers are getting their comp cut, not recognizing that business development is a part of the business. It's the business of law, is I think the greatest downfall of probably a number of lawyers that probably could do very well. They just but they're they're too late or they're not thinking strategically about who As a part of of their job.
Rich Lenkov 20:03
There's no question and and you know, the best way to gain independence financially and career wise is develop your own book of business because there's nothing better than, you know, that just brings with it confidence and brings with it autonomy, it brings with the ability to control your destiny, you don't have to have a ton of work, you know, it all grows. But the one other thing I would ask you is, I don't want, you know, no one should lose sight of the fact that it can't be smoke and mirrors, you've got to have the baseline product, and that product has to be really good legal skills, right? Because otherwise, you're just selling hot air, no, and every client sees through that. So, you know, I think any good legal marketer will tell you that the selling is important, but the product is the most important, right. So if you've got a good product to sell, which is hopefully your legal skills, and your acumen and your results, I mean, I sell my results, you know, as lawyers, we can tell clients that this result will be a guarantee of a future result. But I'll give you an example. I've got a webinar coming up my next webinar. I mean, we do one a month, I just did one yesterday, and a couple of weeks, we're doing a webinar on how to get a zero on your case, on your workers compensation case, which is really rare in our state. But my firm in 2020, alone, we're only what, not seven months, and we've got 707 cases that we tried, where the commission came back in our favor. So like a not guilty verdict, which is again, really rare. I got two of them personally. So we're giving our clients tips on how to get that. You know, that's not that's something that you can market unless you actually have the results. You can't make that up, right, you've got to actually, you know, have the goods. So one of the best pieces of marketing, Steve is just his actual great lawyer and great results.
Steve Fretzin 21:54
Yeah, I think that then it builds. I mean, that's, I think that was my father's whole thing, you know, to was was he was known as the go to guy. And so you got to be known as that go to guy that gets results. That's again, a baseline, I don't think that that could make your career too, but maybe not as easily as doing that. And on top of that, you know, really focusing on figuring out how to help others how to, you know, be proactive with your business development, leverage low hanging fruit, I'll give a quick example. There are attorneys I work with who have, you know, dozens of successes and successful clients, they work with that that love them, they are the conciliatory, and they just expect that new business or referrals will come in through those clients. And the clients are just too busy for that they're not thinking strategically about how do they get my lawyer in front of my CEO friend. And so I'm teaching lawyers how to how to actually get in there in a non salesy way to open up the dialogue about, hey, you're happy with me, there might be other people, you know, that I could also help in a similar fashion? Can we talk that through. And I mean, that skill alone, for some attorneys can be the difference between a million or $2 million book with doing very little additional work. So the idea that there are things that attorneys can be doing that doesn't take a tremendous amount of effort, or energy or time to do, but could have all the difference or make all the difference in how they grow their book, it's it's sitting out there just about education, you know, more than anything?
Rich Lenkov 23:24
Yeah, there's no question. That's what I coach my attorneys on as well is, you know, yes, go out and market, new clients, cold call, all that kind of stuff. But you've got, as you said, low hanging fruit right here, you know, they're waiting for you. And not only with, you know, other clients that they might refer you to, but how about other lines of practice, we do, you know, probably 25 different practice areas. And if you're working for a large corporation, you know, they're gonna have work in a lot of those practice areas, and we're not doing it, you know, the larger the company, the less likely that your person will be able to give out work in another area, but happens all the time. I mean, a lot of you know, large corporations even only have a very small legal department and the same people that are handing out intellectual property work might also be handing out employment work. And if you do that, you know, there's no reason why you can't ask that client for work in other areas. And boom, you know, overnight, you've expanded your business.
Steve Fretzin 24:26
Yeah, and I would say, for a lot of law firms, it's it's almost like if they if you can imagine a conference table, and your whole firm is standing around it or to, let's say, 20 attorneys are standing around the conference table, and the conference table is stacked with hundreds in and it's going up to the ceiling and there's millions of dollars sitting on this conference table. And everybody just kind of walks around it and then just doesn't even think to like grab a shovel and start taking money from it. It's It's It's such a great way to grow a book of business to leverage the talent at your firm to be able to ask certain questions. To identify needs that clients have that you don't offer yourself, but that your other successful attorneys in your group do. And that's a skill as well, that can be so easily developed with the right question or the right approach. And yet most attorneys don't take even, you know, 10 minutes to try to read something or learn something specific to that skill, which is just a huge, huge misstep.
Rich Lenkov 25:23
Yep. A great and I think the key is, again, very, very simple. But you have to ask, right, I mean, like you just said, the clients are going to come to you, I think you nailed it with that comment. You have to ask I mean, be be bold. I mean, if you're a lawyer, and you're out there in the world, you inherently are, you know, an outgoing person, hopefully, you've got to ask the clients, they're not going to come to you and say, Hey, you know, I heard you do intellectual property. Also, can you help us help us with that? It's your job to go ask them and also ask them and my, this is not for everyone, right. And, but my approach is just be very direct, you know, clients are busy, they're not, they're not offended easily, you know, they've seen it all, especially in my area, and litigation, my clients have seen everything they have, they're dealing with people who are lying to them every single day. So my clients don't want the beat around the bush approach. And let's get to know each other for you know, six months or 10 months, and then they'll ask you for work. My approaches, you know, listen, they know, I'm a lawyer, they know I'm looking to work with them, ask them for work. And the sooner you get that out of the way, the better. And, you know, if you're going to find out after a year or two of pursuing that they are happy with their existing counsel, then you sort of wasted their time and your time, I think the best approaches are where your direct not rooted, you know, not in a rude or pushy way, but your direct. And the best clients are the ones who say, Yes, I'll try you, hopefully, or listen, no, I'm happy with my existing counsel. Thanks for your inquiry. And maybe we'll talk again in a while. But, you know, I think the worst ones are where either side is not direct, and especially when the when the potential client is not being direct with you. Because, listen, we're all busy. And if you don't want to work with me, I totally respected and appreciate your loyalty to your existing lawyer. But just tell me that, you know.
Steve Fretzin 27:11
Yeah, well, I think that's a great a great place for us to kind of wrap up rich, any any things that you'd like to promote? Or how do people get in touch with you?
Rich Lenkov 27:20
Yeah, our firm is vdlfirm.com, so I'm available through there and I'm on all social media, so pretty easily accessible, you know, love people to subscribe to our podcast, which is legal faceoff, it's on wgn. And it's available literally wherever you get your podcast iTunes, and also through the wgn app. And then our company our production company is called Shiloh are still working out. We're trying to update our website, which has been hard to get to but we've got some great stuff coming up through China, we are getting our Renegade show back. renegades is a live theater production in Vegas about bad boys was sports. So I mentioned some of the guys we've had we've got some exciting additions coming up that was at Caesar's Palace in Vegas. I also produced a show called Heartbreak Hotel, which is the only show licensed about Elvis by the Elvis estate. And we've got some other stuff coming up and check out our nightclub fame when phase four kicks in here in Chicago. And we'll be back up and running and Steve, you will be forever on the VIP list. I know nice. Big for him nightclub guy, we've got a foriegn license at the club. So I know that's when you only get started so you're welcome anytime.
Steve Fretzin 28:31
Yeah, so I'm going to have to put off that 9:30 bedtime I've been hitting lately. It's step up my game a little bit rich thanks so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it and you just have so much to offer my audience as far as your your expertise non traditional ways of of getting business and obviously just being a great lawyer is is you know, you know kind of job one so I appreciate your coming on.
Rich Lenkov 28:55
I really enjoyed it. Love to be back anytime and we'll have you back on legal face off very soon appreciate Yeah,
Steve Fretzin 29:00
that's great. Hey everybody, just want to thank you for listening. Hope you enjoyed today's show, and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Again if you're interested in growing your law practice, check out my website at frets and calm if you enjoyed today's show, you know please make sure you like it or five star it or thumbs up it or whatever it might be on your on the podcast platform that you're that you're listening to it. Thanks everybody and take care.
Narrator 29:33
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.