In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Phil Gafka discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"The only way you can move forward is to accept responsibility and then make those connections." — Phil Gafka
Connect with Phil Gafka:
Website: leapcoaching.com
Email: Phil@leapcoaching.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/philgafka/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Phil Gafka 0:00
We all want to know what our part is that's helping make this successful. We want to be listened to, we want to be part of that success. The challenge is we talk so much about the differences. We're not spending enough time talking about the commonalities. What do all of our employees want? What do all of the team members want? And how do we give them?
Narrator 0:23
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:45
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am your host, Steve fretts. In and I'm very excited to have you as a listener today, and hope everybody's doing well. Just a reminder that if you're interested in learning more business development tips and tricks, I've got three books on Amazon, we've got sales, free selling, we've got the attorneys networking Handbook, and the ambitious attorney, all that are going to give you great ideas to build a law practice and stay sustainable, as you realize that building a book of business is probably the second most important thing you need to do as a lawyer next to being a great lawyer. And one of the things that is also very important is having great leadership and a law firm and great culture. And my guest today is an amazing executive coach. I've known him for many years. He's an author, he's the principal of lead coaching. It's Phil Gafka, Phil, how are you?
Phil Gafka 1:36
Steve doing great. And thanks for having me on today. Appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin 1:39
Absolutely. My pleasure. And obviously, we'd love to hear a little bit more background, if you wouldn't mind giving a Reader's Digest version beyond what I did.
Phil Gafka 1:48
Well, thank you very much been on my own with an executive coaching practice for 13 years. But I think what set me up was the previous business I was in which was appliance distribution. And it wasn't necessarily the appliances, but it was calling on other businesses and getting that feel for our Why are certain businesses always successful? Or able to weather those tough storms better? And then why are other organizations always struggling? And you start to see what are those common denominators that make for a successful enterprise? And how do you put those in place? So that's the gist of what I've been doing for the last 13 years. And it's under, kind of like that three legged stool, I do executive coaching, leadership development at many different levels within organizations, and I do a lot of culture work these days, with organizations. One of the bigger challenges is that Gallup has been surveying employees for the last 20 years. And the level of employee engagement on the 2019 statistics was all the way up to 35%. Which is pretty sad. Yeah, you got basically two thirds of the workforce out there not engaged with what they do. And I think there's responsibilities on both sides, you know, for the employees to become engaged. But I think the first step is, is the management team, but the leadership team, giving them the right things to engage with or to.
Steve Fretzin 3:19
So let's get into that a little bit deeper. So what are kind of the top leadership or cultural challenges that and I can say, law firms, if we want to focus on that industry? It could be it could be across the board. But But obviously, that's the space that that we're in here, but what are some of the top challenges that they have around those two pieces? And let's, let's get that on the table, and then we can start talking about solutions?
Phil Gafka 3:42
Sure, well, first, you know, I think one of the challenges with American business and it includes law firms, and I've, I've coached a few, look, they call themselves managing partners. And I continually kind of chide them that I don't like your title. You know, when you the problem with American business is we we elevate somebody to a managerial position. And there's two challenges with that. One is we normally don't train them well to manage. And secondly, I think we should be if we're going to put them in charge of people, we should be developing them as leaders, not managers. As the adage goes, You manage process but you lead people. I did a facilitation the other day and I asked the crowd, I said, Okay, who you know, raise your hand if you'd like to be micromanaged. And surprisingly, no one raised their hand as it's like to be. Nobody does want to be micromanaged. But they don't, they'll go for leadership. You know, they'll people will join a company or an organization because of a great vision, but they'll leave because of poor leadership. And so people understanding that difference between management and leadership, and then how do you effectively lead an organization or effectively lead people and not manage it mean there's a place for management when you get into your process. And your, your procedures and such, but not when it comes to your people.
Steve Fretzin 5:04
So maybe it's the Oh, I'm just gonna say maybe we should change the title for managing partner to leadership partner?
Phil Gafka 5:09
Well, it's funny because the the managing partner said, You know, I don't like your title. And they said, what should it be I go, I'm not sure of what it should be. But pick something, you know. And if it's leading pardon, to me, that just makes a whole lot more sense. Because that's your job, your job is not to put out the fires, your job is to figure out how to avoid the fires in the first place. And that's, to me part of that difference between management and leadership? Well, there's a problem. Let's solve it. Now, let's get the barriers out of the way. So we don't have those problems any longer. And when you get that correct in somebody's mind, and that vision component, okay, where are you leading your firm? What is it? What do you want people to buy into? I think there's a big disconnect in that employee engagement, because firms put some, Excuse My French bs up on the wall, that a they don't believe they don't, they don't live. And the people in the organization nodes, Bs, and so there is no engagement. But would you get serious about that vision of where you want to build this firm and where you want to take it, and then you have the right culture to support it. Now you've got a one two punch that successful organizations understand they need to have, and then that's how you engage your people?
Steve Fretzin 6:22
Well, it's an interesting too, because, you know, coming up is, you know, in sales in in the 90s. And when I was a kid, if you will, you know, they would take the best salesman, and they'd put that salesman in management, and with no training, no, nothing, just this person knows how to sell. So let's have them then manage the sales team. And it was almost always a disaster. And so you take a rainmaking attorney, who is you know, produced millions of dollars is feeding the troops, and then put them in a managerial role, where they have to put out those fires are they are they believe they have to, and they're not trained, they're not coached, they're not given direction. They're just say, Hey, take care of this. And they wonder why it's such a hard job. Or they wonder why it's not successful?
Phil Gafka 7:02
Well, and you know, those are the organizations I look, don't move that Rainmaker. Go find five more like that person, and let them go out and make their rain. Find someone that's more suited to do that, you know, that leadership role of the team, but it's not necessarily the renegade or the rogue. That's good at making rain. I just say, let them go find more like that. Let them do their thing. Yeah. But that's where you'll get one of those challenges in American business is are you putting the right people in the right spots? in the organization?
Steve Fretzin 7:35
Yeah, right. People write seats? Yeah. So let's talk about that in. So what are some solutions you mentioned, like taking away barriers? And I think that's brilliant, and so much more effective than putting out fires? How does someone set up to remove those barriers? And what are the top barriers?
Phil Gafka 7:56
Up barriers are, you know, Peter Drucker is attributed with this, quote, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I truly believe that you can have the best strategy, but if your culture doesn't support it, and that's the challenge today is you have so many challenges to culture, you have first time ever, we've had the potential for five generations in the same workforce. So from the traditionalist, you've got people still in their 70s, either running law firms are still active in that law firm, you've got the boomers, and then you've got generations X, Y, and Z. And they all bring different value structures, not wrong, just different. And how do you align five different value structures in an organization, let alone the challenges that we have today with the LGBT community, the me to movement, Black Lives Matter, the D, an eye movement, you've got so many different challenges that talk about what's different about people, you have to start talking about what's common for people. You know, first of all, we all want to be part of something that's successful and moving forward. We all want to know what our part is, that's helping make this successful. We want to be listened to we want to be part of that success. The challenge is we talk so much about the differences. We're not spending enough time talking about the commonalities. What do all of our employees want? What do all of the team members want? And how do we give them what they're looking for?
Steve Fretzin 9:33
And what how does how does a firm for example, identify that? What's that? What's the resource that you use or that people should be using to identify what the common value is or the common goal or the to get that engagement?
Phil Gafka 9:48
Well, I've taken a number of firms through this little exercise and we just you know, start with the clean whiteboard and say, Okay, what are the important not the things you do legal wise, but the how You do what's important. And people will throw up, you know, we need to respect one another, we need to deal with a high level of integrity, we need to have honest, we want to have fun, and we can get 6070 adjectives up on the board. And then through a process of elimination, we start narrowing it down to what are the most important cultural or core values. So when we're doing this process of elimination, we're not really taking anything off the board, that's important. We're just getting the most important things to rise to the top. Because I don't think you can take an employee or a prospective employers say, look, here's the 70, things that we value, you know, do these 70 things, it loosen everybody, but when you can boil it down to the most important things, along with a definition of what you actually mean by those core values. And I'll give you an example. I was working with a group. And they defined honesty as a core, a core value, which you think would be pretty good. Until there was a problem and somebody came looking for the boss, because they had no big client had a problem right then and there. And he would just tell him not in, like, Okay, stop the clock. He just asked somebody to lie for you, when we're talking about honesty, we got into a little deeper discussion about honesty, and you know, you can get some brutal honesty. And I'm a bald guy, and somebody told me, you know, hey, Phil, I don't like bald people. Now, that may be totally honest. But that's not doing anything to move the company forward or the firm forward. So they went to the word integrity, they wanted to deal with a high level of integrity, fine, I think it's a good core values. But what does integrity mean to you? And there was kind of silence around the table, and said, Okay, I'll go first, to me integrity is I draw a line in the sand here, and I just don't cross it. And they go, good, we'll use that to go. But you got eight people at the table here, you can't have eight different lines of integrity, you've got to get down to what does it mean for you as a group? What are you going to agree to? What are you going to be held accountable for? And what are you going to actually own? When it comes to integrity? You know, the difference when we're talking leadership is what do you do when nobody's looking? And are you holding yourself to those same standards, when nobody's looking, because eventually, people are seeing what's going on. And so when you can find those core values, and they don't have to be right, for anyone, but that term. In other words, they don't transfer from one organization to another, and they don't have to transfer. But you have to get pretty honest about what are the important things that you're going to hire by fire by incentivize discipline, how you're going to grow your people and how you're going to grow your business. When you get that, right. You get alignment with your people.
Steve Fretzin 12:38
And isn't improving the culture and getting and getting some some strong buy in internally? Then how does that translate to an I don't wanna say, like a marketing effort, but how does that translate to bringing in the right people attracting and bringing in the right people, because I know firms are really focused on they want to, you know, bringing in laterals, they want to bring in lawyers that are going to add value to their already, you know, successful practice. So how does that internal cultural shift, then translate to, to to growth in furs, bringing in better good and better people?
Phil Gafka 13:16
Well, that's a great question. And, you know, the firm I'm working with right now, you know, the the interview process, not only are you looking at, you know, their knowledge base, their skill set, but you're looking to have those deeper conversations, as does their personal culture, align Well, with the culture of the organization, working with the firm right now. And, you know, all the partners came from big law firms. And they are very aware of what they do not want to have those things they had in that big law firm. And so they're very picky and very particular about who they actually bringing, because it's, it's not a matter of whether they're a Rainmaker, it's important. It's not a matter of the specialty as much as do they fit the organization? And can they be a natural extension of the organization versus a one off, but you can't have those conversations until you're very clear on what it is that you all as a group stand for? And then can you match another person that aligns with what you decide is important to you? So I'm just seeing more of those interview conversations along the cultural lines, instead of just the specialty and who your customers are, who your clients are?
Steve Fretzin 14:32
And I think it has to all align also from a marketing perspective. And how does the website reflect that culture and that diversity or or what the the mission statement or value system is of that of that firm? And I think if it doesn't all align, then there's then there's something that's going to turn somebody off or that's going to maybe be a gap in in what they're trying to move forward.
Phil Gafka 14:55
Oh, I think you're right on track there. See the getting the vision right for the firm. Getting the culture right? If you get those two things correct, and you use those as your let's call them North Stars, you know, and the question comes back, you know, should we go in this direction? Will does it support the vision we've established for the firm? Those how we want to do it support the culture that we've laid out for ourselves? If you can answer yes to both of those questions, that's probably a pretty good bet you should move in that direction. If you can't answer to the affirmative, that's probably a pretty good bet. You shouldn't do that thing.
Steve Fretzin 15:30
Yeah. And here's this might be, I don't know if this is the tougher question, because you're your master. But let me throw it out. Anyway, if there's an associate listening now, and that associates at a firm where the culture is, let's say, either questionable, or maybe could could be could be better. And that associate isn't feeling empowered isn't feeling like there's a seat at the table, but wants to stay at the firm wants to see the firm succeed wants to be a part of it. But is, is sort of unsure how to approach the leadership to to impact the change or to to voice him or herself? How does that person do that in a way that maybe is going to be? safe?
Phil Gafka 16:11
Great question again. And what I work with a lot of clients is a concept I call multi directional leadership, you know, in an organization, you have people that are below you sometimes, or at your peer level, or above you, and how do you? And let's just change the terminology, how do you influence different people in an organization? You know, you don't go to someone higher up, like the leading partner, and say, Look, I don't like the way you're doing this, here's how you should do it better. I think you influence up the leadership ladder by asking really good questions, the type of question that you really don't even want an answer to right now you want that person walking away going? Hmm, I need to think about that. So I think influencing how things could be better just posing those questions, which are less threatening than saying, hey, you're doing this wrong. Because nobody wants to be told that. So I think leadership in that direction, comes more in those really thoughtful, really strategic questions of those people in those roles, that can actually make an impact on changing the culture and moving things forward. It's a delicate, I mean, it's more art than science.
Steve Fretzin 17:31
Yeah. And it again, and you know, going to the managing partner, and being critical may not be the the play, but maybe having some some good questions prepared for the head of your practice area, or your mentor or partner, or maybe just asking, look, this is this is a concern. I see. You know, what do you think? Or how do you know, what's your what's your take on it? And how can that ball be moved?
Phil Gafka 17:55
Exactly. When you're, you know, you know, I've had people even say, Look, I'm just going to go ask for a one on one with the, with the top person. And, you know, set the stage. Look, I'm not all I want to do is, I have questions that I don't really have good answers. But I just want to pose some questions to you and just, you know, say, what are your thoughts about this? And again, by being prepared, and having that real strategic, you can I think you can plant those seeds? I mean, I know working with clients now, the most meaningful questions are the ones where they go, huh, I need to think about that. Oh, easy question. easy answer. Tough question. retire requires a little bit of time to process. And so we didn't get to those really good questions where somebody has to process their answer. I think now you're making some headway. And it's non threatening to do it that way.
Steve Fretzin 18:44
Yeah. And so let me let me give you a hard question, a tough question that you have no time to process except for a moment. All right, go because this is this is the direction I'm going with you fail. I can't stop once I've started compensation and culture. And one of the biggest things that I hear and concerns I hear is lawyers, generally speaking, I have had for years, I mean, this is just historical have been left in the dark as it relates to compensation. And it's a committee that figures it out. And I've got an associate, for example, right now who just made partner but as an associate, doing a million dollars isn't going to get compensated much more than an associate that has no book of business, they build the same hours. They're both good attorneys. And I'm just concerned about that, because it's a while while I think generally the culture is good, and the people are good at this firm, it just it's always in the back of the attorneys mind that that compensation and culture, you know, that there's it's almost a little bit like the Wild West and they're just sort of figured out how they you know, from one month to the next instead of having a structure that that makes the culture sing or makes the culture even stronger. So what what are your thoughts on that particular subject?
Phil Gafka 19:55
Well, being a capitalist at heart, I think the the organizations and the firms that I've seen that are most successful with this are very straightforward and honest about what are the I mean, the culture is important. But if the firm's not making money, then nobody has a job. And so I think you have to have this balance between bringing in business and doing the work. If you don't have an incentive, again, just my opinion, if you don't have an incentive for bringing in the work, then who is going to go do that? Who's going to go out and be the Rainmaker? If there's no incentive to do it, when I think there's some people that are just naturally good at it? And they'll do it? But the firm has to have that vision of what are we here for? And when you're, when you understand how the business side of this all works, and you said that in your opening comments, there's a business side to running a law firm. And if you don't get the business side, right, you're going to wind up with some problems, because soon enough, there's not enough money to go around.
Steve Fretzin 21:02
Yeah, I think that that, again, I've always been, you know, coming up in sales, and which is a dirty word for the lawyers out there sales, but everybody's selling something well, and that, by the way, I think the only argument I ever won with my sister, because she's a therapist, and she doesn't sell anything, or she doesn't Mark anything. And I eventually won that argument. But it's only first and only time. But you know, coming up in that environment here, I never had to wonder if I sold 10 deals, what I was going to get paid or if I hit my numbers, what that what was going to happen. And that kind of clarity was so important to me, to not only plan for it, but also to you know, not that I was spending the money before I had it, but it just it just made everything you know, right. And so to have a job where, you know, you bring in a ton of business, you bring a ton of value in and then you just don't know what's going to happen, you know, from year to year. I mean, that just is I can't see how that how that can help produce a successful culture with that lack of clarity.
Phil Gafka 22:05
Well, and lack of clarity. Now you've also taken away the motivation for somebody to give you their best.
Steve Fretzin 22:10
Yeah
Phil Gafka 22:11
I mean, let's face it, it's not just about the money, but it is part of the scorecard. And we do have those responsibilities for our families and ourselves. And if we're not looking out for ourselves, who is, you know, so that that communal? You know, we'll decide later, it may work for some firms, but the the firm's I've been involved with, over the years, have a good balance between getting work done, and the value of bringing in the work. And again, that's just that cultural side of how are we going to do this? Go ahead.
Steve Fretzin 22:47
Yeah, no, but I was gonna say just, it just keeps coming back to you know why people should hire you, quite frankly, because, you know, they need to have these things ferreted out, they need to have these dialogues, they have to understand how important changes and how to how important transparency is. And I might be from the ground up, but it's got to happen.
Phil Gafka 23:06
Well, the tough part is I just had this situation with a client the other day, client put out to his leadership team, because they're going through some expansion, you know, right back to me and what you what you're owning, now, with this expansion, what part of this are you owning? And I thought really good. I said, but I said to the person said, What are you owning? And all this? Where's your answer? I said, don't you think you have a responsibility to tell the rest of the crew what you own. And when you when you do this with someone like you or me who's from the outside, we don't know what their sacred cows are, we don't know the subjects, they don't talk about my advantages I come in. And I jokingly say, I'm like the village idiot, I don't know what I can talk about. But if I see a void or I see a gap, to me, that's like a loose thread, I just have to pull on it. So the value of coming in with no emotional attachment to their stuff, is I think one of the bigger values that people like you and I bring to an organization.
Steve Fretzin 24:09
Yeah, I think it's again, I we've got it, we've got to sometimes, you know, just continue to whether it's its pull a string, or it's just asking a line of questions to get to that to get to the real truth to get to the real underlying elements or issues that they're having. So for me, it's business development for you. It's, you know, culture and it's it's, um, you know, looking at leadership and where, where their gaps are, and we play within those gaps. I mean, that's, that's where we live.
Phil Gafka 24:37
Exactly. I think I just lost the prospect the other day because he laid out the challenges and He's the owner. I said, so tell me what, what's your responsibility and all this and there was kind of silence because well, I guess I have some I said you guess Are you do?
Steve Fretzin 24:57
Oh, man.
Phil Gafka 24:59
Never go back. Say culverwell that didn't go over well, you know, that's fine. It's just not my kind of client if they're not willing to, to face that and move forward with that that's not my kind of client. And I really, it's not really a loss. But that's the point, you know, the only way you can move forward is accept responsibility, and then make those collections. And it's not about I mean, I've just signed up another firm recently, and they said, Well, you know, we go his will, we're certain certain partners are worried about retribution for what they might have done ago, it's not about retribution is about we're starting over, we're going to identify how it's going to be from this point forward, not what happened yesterday, what we want to have happen from today forward. So if certain people are worried about retribution, throw it out the window, if they do it again, they might have a conversation. But it's all about forward motion.
Steve Fretzin 25:49
Yeah, if we, if we, if we live in the past, where we're in trouble. If we learn from the past, I think we can make better decisions moving forward.
Phil Gafka 25:56
So without a doubt, but that's just having those honest discussions with people. In a nice look, first, perfect firm, the first perfect person I haven't met, but it's not about being perfect. It's about being excellent. And if you can give, you can set your sights on excellence, you can do that you can hold other people accountable for perfections, real toughskins. You can't get there and neither can anybody else. And if you're going to hold somebody to that standard to get up a lot of disappointed people.
Steve Fretzin 26:24
Well, I think that's kind of the perfect time to wrap things up. So how about that?
Phil Gafka 26:30
Well done. Thank you.
Steve Fretzin 26:32
Look at me. So listen, man, people are listening to this. And my hope is they're getting not only some some great advice and takeaways, which I know, I know I am. And they should be. How do people get in touch with you because they should be talking to you.
Phil Gafka 26:46
All it's real simple. That's Phil@leap.com. And leap is my little acronym for leadership for enterprises, and professionals. Wonderful. And so just phil@leapcoaching.com, happy to have phone calls with people to explore what they're going through. There's no obligation. But if there's a way that I can help, glad to do so. And Steve, thanks for your time today. I appreciate you bringing me on board here for one of your podcasts.
Steve Fretzin 27:13
Well listen, I only bring on people that I not only know and respect in life, but people that are going to add value for my listeners, and you've done that in spades. So thank you, sir. depreciations on my side as well. And listen, everybody, I just want to thank you for taking some time with Phil and I today and again, you know, the goal is to continue to grow and develop and be better than then you were last year. And to be that lawyer someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker be well take care.
Narrator 27:44
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.