In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Neil Dishman discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"You need that book of business to have autonomy, to have security in your career. You can end up in a bad spot if you don’t." — Neil Dishman
Connect with Neil Dishman:
Website: JacksonLewis.com
Email: Neil.Dishman@JacksonLewis.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/neildishman/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Steve Fretzin 0:00
Just a quick apology, this show had some technical and audio difficulties. So my voice is modulating improperly. So I apologize for that. But enjoy the episode. Thank you.
Neil Dishman 0:11
Yeah, he's worried about his position that his current firm now that the rainmakers who've been feeding him were leaving, right, and then also worried about who would be interested in him. And that's what I was talking about before. That's, you know, you need that book of business to have autonomy and have security in your career, and you can end up in a bad spot if you don't.
Narrator 0:31
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:53
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. This is your very enthusiastic host Steve Fretzin. Reaching out. I hope everybody's having a great day and everybody's being safe out there. Just a quick reminder that this is a weekly show. If you've missed some of the past episodes, I recommend you go back either on my website Fretzin.com or any of the major podcast platforms to check out the 40, 50 plus episodes that I've recorded with some of the top rainmakers marketing business development experts in the world and get some great tips. It's just a it's just a terrific platform. If you're listening and you haven't gone back and checked it out, please do so. Today I have not only a great guest, but a close friend and just in a former client, and it's just one of my favorite people in the world. Neil Dishman is a principal over Jackson Lewis, Neil, how's it going?
Neil Dishman 1:43
Good, Steve. Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 1:45
Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. This is very exciting to have you on the show. And if you wouldn't mind, just give a little background, how you came to be?
Neil Dishman 1:55
Sorry, how I came to you?
Steve Fretzin 1:57
No how you came to be, yeah I was making a joke, terrible one but yeah.
Neil Dishman 1:58
So my business is two-fold. at Jackson Lewis, what we do is help employers handle disputes with their employees, and help employers avoid those disputes in the first place whenever possible. So one big part of our practice is defending employers from all sorts of employee legal claims and lawsuits. So things like claims for discrimination, sexual harassment, wrongful discharge, wage disputes, benefits, disputes, pretty much anything you can dream up that an employee might complain about, or Sue their employer over is the kind of thing that we defend employers from. And then the other big part of our practice, as I said, is trying to stay out of the courthouse in the first place. So that takes a few different forms. A lot of what we do is just day to day advice on whatever the personnel crisis of the week that the company might happen to be. So I'm the guy that you call before you fire that problem employee to talk through the risks of terminating this person and you know, what we might be able to do to shore up our position, protect ourselves from legal claims. I'm the guy that you call if you've got an employee that you think might be abusing FMLA leave or has some really difficult disability or workers comp kind of issues to work through. And then we also do larger scale preventive medicine type projects, like we'll overhaul your employee handbook, we'll do training for your managers, you know, all the good policies and practices and helping companies make good decisions, help they stay out of the courthouse in the first place.
Steve Fretzin 3:27
Awesome, awesome. And take a step back, if you wouldn't, what made you want to become a lawyer and then be once you became a lawyer, realize or recognize that business development was something you wanted to excel in?
Neil Dishman 3:38
Yeah. So I can't really tell you why I decided to become a lawyer. Right? What I do know for sure is that I decided that I wanted to become a lawyer when I was about like, 12 or 13 years old. And I never changed my mind about that. And I actually turned out to be right.
Steve Fretzin 3:55
That's a really cool movie or something like a Atticus Finch type of situation, or no,
Neil Dishman 4:00
I don't know what it was, I just I don't remember and I'm the first lawyer in my family to so it's, you know, it's not as if I was following in dad's footsteps or something. But, you know, I in school, I always excelled in and enjoyed, you know, the language arts, right reading, writing, critical thinking, debate, arguing and so forth. were things that I know, thrive that and, and really enjoyed doing, and I knew that, you know, those are things that are important for attorneys. Also, I am a perhaps dysfunctionally competitive person. And so, being a litigator and getting to go fight and hopefully win, or living in something that I think is, you know, was was naturally attractive to me. So yeah, I had my sights set on law, from the beginning, always planned to go to law school, went from college straight through law school and haven't regretted at one bed. The way I got into employment law, in particular was really by accident. My first summer in law school. So between my first and second year of law school, it's pretty difficult to get a paying job. Your first summer in law school, but I managed to get a, I remember, I think it was $10 an hour. Working for a law firm in the little town in Vienna that I grew up in. It's actually a good networking story there. The reason I got the job was because one of the partners of that firm was the father of one of my good buddies from high school and college. I had a connection that got me the job. And my buddy's dad, who got me the job was the guy at this little firm that specialized in employment law. Nice. So I worked with him a lot that summer, really enjoyed it. And by the time I went back to school, for my second year, I was, you know, focusing on taking employment law classes, you know, researching firms that really specialize in employment law that I could focus on. And then my second summer in law school, I ended up at a summer associate attacking Lewis, and the rest is whether or not 18 years of history now.
Steve Fretzin 5:48
What point like, What year was it in your 18 years that you decided? No, I think this is development might be something like that might be important in my career.
Neil Dishman 5:57
Yeah. In one sense, I was fortunate because it is something that's an emphasis at my firm, even for young attorneys. In fact, I remember having only been at the firm for a week or two, and sitting down with one of the senior partners for lunch. And he was just kind of, you know, talking me through some informal orientation type things, and actually asked him the question, I said, I know there are some firms out there that want young attorneys to be working on business development and learning it from the beginning. And that's important there. But I you know, I have the sense there are some firms that want you to spend a few years just learn how to be a good lawyer first, right? I've been worried about, you know, where clients come from after that. And God bless him. He said, we are definitely the first guys. We, we want, and we don't expect our associates to actually bring in business, but we certainly want you to be learning how to do it, networking, planting the seeds that are going to turn into business down the road. And so that, you know, we've made clear to me from the beginning, that that's something that was encouraged.
Steve Fretzin 6:51
Gotcha, gotcha. And then when you sort of, you know, kind of understood that it then At what point did you start, like really looking to get serious about investing time and energy and putting it towards, you know, networking and other activities?
Neil Dishman 7:06
Yeah, it was, it was very early on, I mean, in the first few months that I was practicing. And again, there was kind of a fortunate coincidence here. So about probably six months after I came back and joined the firm as a full time associate, after finishing law school on a clerkship, I, my wife, and I bought our first house and moved to Glen Ellyn, where we still live today. And, you know, so we were moving to a new community. And I was kind of looking to meet some people in the community anyway. And I, you know, looked into the local Chamber of Commerce, talk with one of my partners and mentors about it. And he said, Yeah, that's a great idea. Go join the Chamber of Commerce, you know, meet some people, make some connections, maybe someone will turn into business, but even if they don't, if we still start to meet some people in this town that you just moved to. Sounds like a good move all around.
Steve Fretzin 7:50
Did I hear recently that I just, I think I heard correctly that people are referring to Glen Allen is Pleasantville. Is that correct?
Neil Dishman 8:00
I hear Mayberry.
Steve Fretzin 8:06
Mayberry maybe that was it.
Neil Dishman 8:06
Yeah, if you want a sales pitch for Glen Ellyn, I'd be happy to give you one we're, we're happy residents of Glen Allen for many years now. But But yeah, so that was how I first dipped my toe in the water was just joining the local Chamber of Commerce. And, you know, right place, right time, you just never know when these things are gonna pan out. I remember one of the second or third events I ever went to, at the at the global Chamber of Commerce was like a new member breakfast. And most of it was people coming up and talking about the chamber and other programs you can get involved in and so forth. But there was at one point during the meeting the hell the new members stand up and give their elevator pitch. You know, who they are and what they do. So I did that. And then after the meeting was over, somebody who had been sitting at a table across the room, and other one of the new members came up to me and said, basically, I had never really heard of, like, I didn't know there was a such thing as an employment lawyer. But having heard you describe what you do, I need you. This guy, really small business here in Glendale, and he had three employees. But one of them was a big problem that he needed some help with. And that turned into my first clients ever.
Steve Fretzin 9:14
Wow, that's it. That's networking. Right? Yeah, good stuff. So I met you, I think when you were an associate, and we had talked about us working together, and you're like, Well, I think I'm about to make partner. And again, if I have the story incorrect, you'll tell me. And I think you wanted to wait until you got to partner before we started working together or something like that. And you're already kind of doing pretty well, if you had a really good book, and you're building on it every year, and then everything else so so, you know, we engaged at that point, but what what was your thoughts then?
Neil Dishman 9:48
So, but yeah, you're you've got the timeline right there. I became a client of yours just a few months after I made income partner, the first level of partner at my firm. And I remember at the time when I talked to some folks looks around the firm and told them that I was hiring a business development coach that some people were kind of puzzled by that, right? Because I, you know, I'd had a fair amount of success in business development for my career stage already. And so some people reacted kind of like, you're already good at this, though, like, you don't need a coach, other people need a coach. And what I said to them was, but I'm not good at, I'm just trying really hard. And I've been trying really hard for a long time, you know, I've been an associate here for seven years, or whatever it was before I made partner. And, you know, I put hundreds of hours every year into networking and business development. And through sheer force of efforts, and just, you know, the odds, sometimes it works, you know, but I hadn't really had much in the way of formal, you know, training, to the point where I felt like it was a skill, you know, that I was developing and getting good at. And I should say to my, as I was growing up at my firm, I always found the firm, to be very supportive of it. I mean, if you went and sought help with business development, you would absolutely get it. You know, if you needed some advice from a partner, you needed a partner to come along with you on a pitch to help you close a deal, you need some money to join an organization go to a conference, something like that, the support was always there. But at least at that point, and we can change things at my firm for the better. But, you know, at that point, no one ever sat you down and said, This is what you should be doing tomorrow. And here's what you should be doing next week. And here's what you should be doing six months from now, if you hope to be a partner here someday, in terms of development. Yeah. So that's, that's what, you know, got me thinking about working with a coach like you is that, you know, I wanted to be successful in business development, because I was good at it, and get better at it and get efficient at it rather than just, you know, kind of succeeding through sheer force of effort, and trial and error.
Steve Fretzin 11:50
And you've been very generous. I mean, if you don't mind me saying you're just telling people about me, and the work we did together. And you wrote the foreword for my second book, The tourney's networking handbook. And you've just been you've just been a great advocate, not only for me, but also for business development and the role that it plays in, in legal and can you talk to, you know, the, maybe the people listening who really maybe aren't getting it or understanding the importance of it as a young attorney, or even as an older attorney, that is just, you know, just taking hours from other people's clients.
Neil Dishman 12:25
Yeah. So a mentor of mine, some years ago, put this in the plainest way that I can remember hearing that he said, having your own business is, is the only way to control your own destiny. In our world, in the world of private practice of law. You know, that's the only way you get to decide what kind of work you're going to do. That's the only way that you know that your position in your firm is ever totally secure, is if you have your own business and develop your own revenue. No matter how good of a lawyer you become, if you don't have your own business, you're always going to be dependent on someone else to feed you. And that gives you less freedom that gives you less autonomy, and that gives you less security in your career. So, you know, like it or not, if you want to have the most successful, safest, most secure, most fulfilling career that you possibly can in private practice of law. It's just a necessity. Right? You've just you've got it, you've got to do it and become good at it.
Steve Fretzin 13:19
Yeah, I mean, I think I think you know, the client relationships, when you own the client, right? When you when you when, you know what I mean by on the client, I mean, when they're when you're their concierge, you can see the area when you're their counselor, when they when they were brought in by you and the workers and all have to be done by you. But you're there, you're there quarterback. That's magic. I mean, that's where that's where things get really interesting to relationships get more intense in a good way. And no, my father retired from law, and you guys are probably sick of hearing my Larry frets and stories, but, you know, he, he did, you know, one or two eulogies for you know, clients who had such an amazing relationship with a baby, you know, had their, you know, children or was set up in the well or whatever, to do the eulogy. I'm not sure how it came to pass. But I know that's not someone who's just cranking out hours, right. That's not a relationship. Yeah, you know, so so I think that's, that's an important note for everybody to kind of take from you on this. But it let's say that they're not going to hire a coach or that's not in the cards for them. What are some things a lawyer should be doing to try to build those skills?
Neil Dishman 14:31
Let me focus here for a bit on on younger lawyers, right, so associates that are that are coming up the ranks? Sure. There's some real challenges and I and I get them because I lived with them for years in developing business when you're a young attorney. And, you know, part of it is a mindset thing. Just kind of to use one of your favorite phrases, Steve that clearing out the head trash. Yeah, right that gets in the way. But you know, there's also some, you know, just some kind of external obstacles to it, things like, you know, you've got a lot of work to do, right? You've got a ton of billable work, that's, you know, that's important than you're expected to do already got to find time to do business development on top of that, depending on what practice area you're in, it can be kind of difficult for a more junior attorney to project to the kind of experience and gravi tasks that are going to, you know, lead to people being willing to hire them as an attorney. You know, there's certainly some challenges to overcome. But in terms of that first bucket of things, the mental obstacles to head trash, you will often hear people say that you don't learn anything about business development in law school. And that is true, but it's actually worse than that. Law School is like anti business development training. Okay. It's actually counterproductive to learning how to develop business because law school teaches us to think and act and talk like ivory tower intellectuals. You know, I always say the, the problem we lawyers have is that we want to think of ourselves like doctors, right? We want to think of ourselves, like we belong to this, you know, kind of noble cast of professionals that we don't do the things that common business people do, right, we don't do things like sales, yuck.
Steve Fretzin 16:15
It's a dirty word. It's a four letter word sale, right.
Neil Dishman 16:19
And so law school almost conditions us from the beginning to look at business development as this mysterious, but at worst, actually kind of distasteful thing to be avoided. And so that's, that's something that, you know, you've got to clear out of your head, if you're ever going to get anywhere in this space, is, you're a business person, as a lawyer, you've got a product to sell. Right? And you don't have any work to do unless, you know, unless you sell that product unless you find, you know, willing buyers for it. So that yeah, that's, that's an important piece of kind of interest to clear out. And then a related issue is that amongst young attorneys, there is often kind of a Too Cool For School kind of attitude when it comes to business development. Again, a great mentor of mine years ago, when I when I was an associate told me, you know, you're having some success at this, you're starting to develop some clients, and that's great. Just understand that some people will, will try to tear down, people like that, you know, you will, you will hear peers of yours. Talk about the big rainmakers in our firm and say things like, oh, that guy's he's such a used car salesman, right? You'll hear people kind of run this down, like it's a bad or a shameful thing somehow. And that's, you know, those people are never gonna be partner here that have that kind of attitude. So you want to, you want to rise above that kind of thing.
Steve Fretzin 17:41
And the interesting thing is, you know, you're talking about the kind of mindset coming out of law school and the associate mindset. And then we've got the 50, something, the 40, 50, something mindset, and these are individuals who have been, you know, sort of been doing everyone else's work for many years. And, you know, what's the what's the concern there from your perspective?
Neil Dishman 18:03
Yeah, and, you know, this is a story that I often tell to young lawyers that, you know, I really tried to be positive about business develop most of the time, but if you need a good scare story, for a good young lawyer, this is what I often share. So I know a lawyer at not at my firm, we've never worked at the same firm. I know him through some other professional affiliations. But he's, he's a little farther along in his career than I am. But when this happened, this was a few years ago, years ago. So he was he was probably about my, she was probably about, you know, 15 years out of law school, when I had lunch with him at one point, and, you know, he had become an excellent lawyer. He'd been part of a group of lawyers, there were a couple of big rainmakers. You know, he had followed them to a couple of different firms, you know, the whole group had moved a couple times, and he was a really important and skilled service partner, you know, for them and their clients. And then, you know, the rainmakers moved to another firm, and there wasn't room for him this time. The, you know, the the firm, they were moving through, just, you know, wouldn't take on that many lawyers, and so they wanted to, but they couldn't bring him with him. And he was in a really difficult spot and said to me at lunch, you know, I don't know what to do. I'm a 15 years out lawyer, I know, I'm an excellent lawyer, I do great work, and I have no business. Like my work. Right. Now he's worried about his position that his current firm now that the rainmakers who've been feeding him were leaving, right, and then also worried about who would be interested in him. And that's what I was talking about before that's, you know, you need that book of business to have autonomy and have security in your career. And you can end up in a bad spot if you don't.
Steve Fretzin 19:34
And then I you know, I I've worked with, obviously work with a number of attorneys that are in that position where they're either coming from, from an in house position to try in the private world and they're, they're totally lost, or they're, you know, they're cut off and then the hours drop in there if they're on the chopping block, and it's tough. I mean, I'd much rather work with someone in their in their 30s and early 40s, then in their, you know, mid or late 50s But the reality is people are working longer, you know, they're working into their 70s. It's not 65 and retire necessarily these days, for many people like not like my dad. So it isn't too late to learn and it is it is a teachable thing. But I think your point is, you know, you better start when you're associate starting to get your chops about you. And then and then you know, by the time maybe you're, you know, 35 or 40, you've got a book that you can sort of count on. And if bad stuff happens, like a recession, or, you know, rainmakers leaving in your hours get caught, but you've got this book that you can sort of, you know, that you can sort of count on.
Neil Dishman 20:37
Yeah, and, uh, you know, a corollary to that is that you're really well served if you start building business development into your daily routine and habits from the beginning. Because the farther you get into your career, and your life outside of work, the harder that becomes, you know, another, here's my second scare story that I use to try to get young attorneys to, you know, to start business development early, is that you also don't want to be in a position where you spend, you know, five or six years, your first years in practice becoming an excellent associate, great attorney bill in 2000 hours a year, whatever, right? partners love the work you do for them, and so forth. And then you wake up one day, and you realize, yikes, I could be up for partner in like, a year and a half. And I haven't done anything, right. Not only do I not have any clients, but I haven't even, you know, figured out how to find them or planted seeds that could turn into clients. And so now all of a sudden, if you want to make partner on schedule, now you're trying to figure out how to, you know, find another couple 300 hours a year somewhere to start doing this brand new thing that you never did before. And you know, it's just the often people you know, during those five or six years that their first few years in practice, often they've gotten married, they've had kids, they've moved out to the suburbs, they got little kids run around now. And so life's really busy. And all of a sudden, you're trying to, you know, graph to this new and scary thing, wonder that you've never made time for before.
Steve Fretzin 21:59
Gotcha. Gotcha. And it's one thing to, you know, go out and network and attend groups. And obviously, that's a little weird right now, but it still exists, you know, but to to meet with someone is an associate that's a CEO, or someone that seems like they're at a on a different level, how do you approach that because that is that a scary thing for an associate is that gonna stop an associate from wanting to do this, because maybe that associate feels a little too young are novice, someone for dealing with, you know, a 50 year old CEO of a $40 million company?
Neil Dishman 22:31
Now it can be, there's a couple different approaches to that. So one is that it just rest assured that it gets easier, guys, the more experience you get, and the more substance you build up in yourself, as a lawyer over the years, the easier that will get, you know, every bit of billable experience that you get, gives you more ability to spot issues, more ability to ask good questions, to anticipate what a potential clients problems might be, you know, to be able to tell them a story about how you solve the problem, like there's once so it does get easier. In the meantime, you know, never hurts to if you're getting close to the point where you're going to close a deal. You know, find a trusted mentor to help you with it. Right, you know, bring along, you know, somebody more senior with more gravitas to, you know, to help you close that deal. So that's kind of the tactical way to think about that the strategic way to think about it is that regardless of the situation, you're a young lawyer, you're a very seasoned lawyer, you know, you're pitching to a huge company, or a little company, it's the CEO, or it's, you know, some lower level person, I always stress, you should approach every conversation with a potential client, from the assumption that this person is your peer, this person you're talking to is your equal, you are not asking this person for a favor. Okay. You know, too many people come into these discussions from from a one down position, where they just kind of feel like, you know, they're begging for business, throw me a bone here, you know, how many hoops can I possibly jump through just to have the chance to possibly pitch for your business, you know, people just approach it from kind of a one down perspective. It's so much more effective and so much healthier, to just look at this person, as a peer, you have a business, they have a business, you're not here asking them for a favor. You're here trying to figure out collaboratively with them. What both of your businesses benefit from working with each other. Just that mindset can solve a lot of those problems.
Steve Fretzin 24:31
No, I would add to that, that and you know this because we work on it together. You know, it's it's not about how, how good your presentation is or how strong your pitches expertise can be assumed by the prospective client based on the quality of your questions and your process or approach. So if you're a young 30, something, meeting with a gray haired CEO or GC or whatever, and you get that meeting and you can run Meaning in a professional way, where they feel understood and they feel listened to. And you've got stories to help explain, you know, you know how things get handled? They're gonna see you, you know, older than you are, you know, just because your process was so strong. If you have you found that to be something that you've, you've worked into it.
Neil Dishman 25:21
Yeah, for sure. And I was just thinking, as you were saying that, that, ideally, the, when the meeting is over, the feeling that you want to leave your prospect with is not, wow, that lawyer I just met with is really smart and impressive. The feeling that you want to leave your prospect with is, wow, that guy cares about me and gets my problems. He understands what what I'm facing and why I might, you know, need to work with somebody like him, you know, and that might sound kind of like cheesy, or touchy feely or warm, fuzzy or whatever. But yeah, too many people think that the meeting with the prospect is about, quote, the pitch. And in fact, I tried to avoid using that term, it's people call them pitch meetings all the time. But I think that that just kind of that sets the tone wrong from the beginning, you know, you're not there to kind of blow them away with what an incredible lawyer you are, and how impressive your firm is, you're there to understand their problem. And gently show them how you can fix their problem and show them that you get it.
Steve Fretzin 26:22
I think that's one of the things that connected us very quickly, when we met was, I think, some clarity about the process that I'm teaching people think I'm teaching sales, I'm absolutely not teaching sales. In fact, my first book is, you know, is called sales, free selling. So it's really about, you know, how you, you know, get into a meeting, build relationship, ask questions, you're a solid listener, you have empathy, understanding, and they basically are open up to you, they share things that are gonna help you understand their problem more significantly, and also, it drives urgency and buy in for them to want to work with you as their lawyer. You know?
Neil Dishman 27:02
Exactly right.
Steve Fretzin 27:02
So it's just, it's just, it's, it's a process that makes sense for how people want to buy today, versus back in the 80s, when it was more flashy. And, you know, the guys that had the, the, you know, lampshade on the head personality and could could work over everybody at the golf club. Like those were the guys that dominated in the past. I think today, you could be introverted. I, you know, engineer, IP attorney, and with a good process and a good list of questions, and then some good decent eye contact, right? force it upon yourself. It all can work. It all can all can can can build.
Neil Dishman 27:37
That's a great point and something I tell our young lawyers all the time this will at least resonate with the litigators out there listening to the podcast, there is not one personality trait or skill or what have you that is necessary to be a cop to becoming a Rainmaker that is not also necessary to be an effective litigator. Okay, yeah, everything about the things you do when you litigate, right, and prepare for litigation, litigators have to ask great questions. In when we're interviewing witnesses, and depositions, and so forth, we've got to be able to, like, ask the right questions to get to what matters about the case, or in this case about, you know, this potential client you're talking to, you've also got to be persuasive. Right, you got to, you got to think on your feet. I mean, people have this fear of like, Oh, you know, I just feel so strange to go sell my services to somebody, every time you go into court on emotion, you're selling something to the judge. And the judge is either gonna buy it or not. And so, you know, it's really just taking that same skill set that same kind of things, you need to litigate effectively and applying them to a different end.
Steve Fretzin 28:42
So I think we just have to flip, we have to flip the script a little bit. And if people are thinking about this as sales or thinking about this, as pitching or convincing, really just have to flip the script and say, you know, your job is is to, you know, understand people's problems, and, and have them, you know, open up to you and want to want to want your help to solve them. I mean, it's just, it's about a good fit. And either you're the good fit, or you're not, but your job is to explore with anyone to see if that's true. And that could be networking that can be with a prospective buyer, or with a spouse, I mean, it goes across the board. And my wife appreciates the fact that I I don't solve things, the fact that I sit there and I listen, and I take it in. And this isn't something I've known my whole life, but it's something that you know, most men should learn that it's it's sometimes just about being listened to and being heard and understood and empathized with not about coming in with some hard, hard solutions. You know, we can we can do that later if you know, that's warranted. So, anyway, um, you know, in kind of wrapping things up a bit, you know, is there any, any kind of final words you'd like to share with the audience about about sort of what does it take to to accelerate business development and build that book that's going to allow you to have the career, the freedom the life, you know, just the balance, because I think that's just important for people to really consider.
Neil Dishman 30:08
Yeah, you know, this may not speak to everyone's mindset, but it speaks to mine. And it will to a lot of people who would be, you know, drawn towards law school in the first place. You know, think of it as a, as an important challenge to be mastered. You know, if you enjoy practicing law, you're going to spend or have spent the first few years of your career practicing law, just digging in, right learning the area of law, that you're in getting better at all your skills in taking depositions, and writing briefs, and drafting contracts and so forth. You know, that camera, which of his books that is, Malcolm Gladwell, it's got that book that says it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a master at something. Sure, right? Well, look, you know, all of us who are more than five years out of law school to put 10,000 hours or more typically into learning how to become a good lawyer, you know, it, you may not put 10,000 hours into business development during that period of time. But it's that mindset, right, it's that challenge, this is an important skill, this is something that's going to make my life and career better. And I've got to get good at it. And I'll tell you, if you do it the right way, it is enjoyable, you know, if you're, if you like people, and I don't mean you have to be like an extrovert, right, or life of the party kind of person. But if you're just like connecting with people, if you go about this in the right way, not the here's my big flashy PowerPoint, let me tell you how great I am kind of way. In that collaborative, let's sit down together, get to know each other, get to know each other's businesses and figure out if we can solve your problem kind of way. You know, you're you're ultimately going to find business development to be gratifying, right? Not just a necessary evil, but something that you really enjoy and relish your successes that.
Steve Fretzin 31:49
And that not as a shameless plug. But I mean, that's the experience that I want my clients to have, I want them to have efficiency, I want them to have a process to follow something that makes business development systematic, and predictable. Okay? Not something that you're just out winging it, and just hoping that things work out, and then you're chasing after people half the day, you know, if time is money, then we need to look at how to spend our time efficiently. And if you're going to do business development, whether it's through a coach like me, or books or videos, or whatever it is a mentor, whatever it is that you can do, to to get a process down or to get a better practices, better ways, better ways of doing something, you know, that's always the key to, to being successful at something whether it's business development, law, a sport, cooking, you name it. So I think, you know, let's wrap it up with that. And is there is there there are people out there that say, hey, I want to network with this guy, or I want to send him some work or hopefully, you know, that kind of thing. But how do people get in touch with you?
Neil Dishman 32:53
Sure thing. So to preface that the the kind of people that that I work with, and in most interested to know, as you might guess, from what I do is people that are responsible for handling employee problems. So I'm typically working with either HR leaders or in house attorneys, whoever it is at the company that owns the employee headaches, and every business has employee headaches. That's the person that we would typically work with them. And it can be anywhere in the country. We're a national firm, we've got 950 lawyers in 61 offices all over the country. Now, all of us do nothing but employment law. So you know, a problem with an employee or an HR compliance issue anywhere in the country, is the kind of thing that we can help with. And yeah, you can find me on Jackson lewis's website or at neil.dishman@jacksonlewis.com. We'd be happy to hear from anyone.
Steve Fretzin 33:40
Fantastic. Well, listen, this was so helpful, you know, to my audience into people that that really want to understand, you know, how to go after something and why it's so important to do that. And you've been incredibly successful in your career. And I appreciate you coming on the show.
Neil Dishman 33:55
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 33:57
Absolutely. Terrific. And Hey, everybody, just want to thank you for spending the 30 minutes with us this week. And again, you know, please go back and check out past episodes if you haven't listened already. And again, the point of the show, and what we're trying to convey on a regular basis is how important it is to go out and get your own clients to be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe, be well, and we'll see you soon. Take care.
Narrator 34:28
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fr.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.