In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Norton discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"I'll invite eight people from the common interest area and, we at least have one thing that we all get on. It's not just me, I'm not the only connector." — Michael Norton
Connect with Michael Norton:
Website: houlihancapital.com
Email: mnorton@houlihancapital.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/michael-norton-houlihancapital
Twitter: twitter.com/SupConnections
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Michael Norton 0:00
So, I find, okay, how can I use my network? How can I build up this person so that when they or their client need my services, they're going to come back to me, you know, and that's, that's the key.
Narrator 0:17
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:40
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your business development coach and trainer, peer advisor. And I want to welcome you to the show. I hope everybody's doing well and you're staying safe out there. I have a really interesting guest today, someone I've known for many years. And he's sort of an innovator in the legal marketing, networking relationship building space. I mean, he has built his whole career around being just a tremendous giver, and networker. It's a Michael Norton, who's the Director of Business Development at Houlihan. Capital. How's it going, Michael? going? Terrific. Terrific, Steve. Thank you for having me on here. Yeah, yeah, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. So do me a favor, give a little bit of a background on you. Because I know you're, you're a lawyer, licensed lawyer, but you're not practicing these days. What? So So tell everybody, your background and what led you over to Houlihan?
Michael Norton 1:28
No, that's correct. I run business development for an investment bank and valuation firm, which I love., I love my position. But I've had a very odd route to that, you know, coming out of undergrad, I actually did the I was lucky enough to do the Teach for America program. So taught in the inner city in Dade County for a couple years, went off to law school and came out, I was lucky enough to, in the midst of, you know, the wake of 2008 downturn, I was able to get a funded fellowship with the lawyers committee for civil rights. So worked there for a year, I've moved over to practicing and practice long enough to know that I was very good at bringing clients into the firm, but as probably not cut out to be a litigator. So went out and sought out greener pastures, and about seven years ago and landed at Houlihan capital. So it's, you know, the rest is history, as they may say.
Steve Fretzin 2:20
Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, and I love the, you know, a lot of lawyers are figuring out that there's other things they can do with their law degree. And what sort of makes them happy? And what sort of, you know, is it? Is it running a business or a certain, you know, being being, you know, being a business developer? So, how do you see that going down? You know, for many of the lawyers that are coming out of law school, I made lawyers that maybe are kind of getting tired of the grind of litigation or things like that?
Michael Norton 2:48
Yeah, you know, I think, one I, I was lucky enough to mentor that early part of my career and the importance of business development, which is a, you know, a skill set that can be, can really be used anywhere. But I love the process of working with my clients figuring out their problems and finding and finding them an answer. And, you know, many cases, that answer is not going to come from Houlihan Capital, it's there, they have multiple issues that I can help them with. And that has been the basis of the development of my of my network, I've always had to figure out a way where I can be the hub that my network can come to, and I can, if I can't help them solve a problem, I'm gonna help them find the answer. And the I think that's a great way for anyone coming out of law school coming out, you know, you're starting a career to think of their network as something that will ultimately work for them and work for the other people in their network, which is where I've placed a heavy emphasis on, you know, I want to be the, I want to be the hub, I want you to connect.
Steve Fretzin 3:55
Okay, so, you know, I guess we're just gonna dive in that a lot of people think of networking, as, you know, passing out business cards and glad handing and just kind of attending events and, and maybe, you know, trying to try to get some business, right. And you have a very different angle and approach that you've already alluded to. So what are some of the things that you know, you mentioned, for example, trying to like, ask questions, listen, and it doesn't have to be your solution. It could just be something that you identify that you could help them with that maybe isn't your solution. So what are some of the fundamentals, the mike Norton fundamentals, blocking and tackling of networking?
Michael Norton 4:32
Well, if you pointed to one thing that I do for all the young young people that started our firm, I point to you, I can look and see the folks at networking events, they're just there to step cars up, and they're not making any meaningful connection. I tried to really meet the people that you're talking to understand their business understand, and really just asking you at the very, very outset, how can I be of value to them andin some cases you'll find that there isn't any and it's okay and it's good to know good people but you can say that we can we can be friends but we're clearly not set up to you know help each other from a professional standpoint but that's when i started thinking okay who i automatically go to connecting with whom within my network would be good for this person to meet yeah because we have a very finite product at Houlihan capital if two but two arms just evaluation arm and investment bank and people don't need those services right away they need them when they need them or their clients need them when they need them so I find okay how can i use my network how can i build up this person so that when they are their client need my services they're going to come back to me you know and that's the key so you know there there is a little namedropping involved i won't lie and i've gotten much better at that but you know it's do you know this person do you know this person have you heard of this firm oh yeah great you need PR services i've got a handful of groups that do that so he just basically rattling off how I can be of assistance at an early stage and then that relationship then can grow organically but it's much stronger because i've found a way to add value as early as possible and i think that's the key is is just consistently adding value because it comes back to you i'm a big big believer in a karma centric you know network if you well.
Steve Fretzin 6:35
And how does that impact your time because I you know i think the first line of my networking book is about you know no one's wasted more time networking than i have and you know that's a little tongue in cheek because i met a lot of great people i built up a lot of great karma and all that but the point of it was is that as you get busy as lawyers get busy networking you know through zoom or through live or whatever we're able to do you know it eats up time and so to go out there and to just meet all these you know various people and try to connect them all that's incredibly difficult to do these days more than ever and also time consuming so how are you either doing this yourself or teaching others to be efficient with that process?
Michael Norton 7:17
Well i mean i do far less just giant networking events virtual or not virtual yeah than i did when i was starting when i was starting i didn't really have much of a roadmap so i was trying anything okay and you're right that eats up a ton of time and his time is definitely a finite resource so especially when you have folks that are working on the execution side like attorneys for instance they don't have time their their entire tire job unlike mine is not built around business development yeah i find you know for folks like them or the people that work on our teams it building it in as a systematic piece what they do so that they know that they're going to allocate a specific amount of time to it so that they can make sure they that a i said i'm going to allocate two and a half hours a week or four hours a week or whatever the case may be and that's going to be spent sending out emails having virtual meetings once were all allowed to again going to events are going to you know some activity where they're meeting other people yeah that's i again it's making it a systematic thing and sticking to it which is the hard part.
Steve Fretzin 8:31
Right, right i definitely definitely the management of the time and what events to attend and or to or even just not even attending events but just keeping in touch with your network the people that you already know and the time that's invested there you know i don't know if this is if this is you know the right answer or not but i mean part of what i try to do is is really you know look at targets and if i'm networking with someone who is a you know let's say you know landscaper okay well if i'm working with attorneys that landscaper may know attorneys however if there's an attorney or someone that works with attorneys or you know that i also meet at that networking event maybe i want to be nice to landscaper and try to be friendly or connect but it's not someone that i'm going to maybe meet with for an hour or meet you know spend a ton of time with because i'm trying to really keep focused on the connectors that are meaning that might be more meaningful or come in contact with you know my direct buyer more so than someone who may never come across that how does that resonate with you and what's your what's your kind of what's your networking mindset is.
Michael Norton 9:39
Absolutely i completely agree and you'll meet that that landscaper that plumber etc at events or wherever if they reach out to connect after you know i'll maybe i'll link in it's fine but they want a meeting i asked them what their goal is with that meeting and if they're they're just trying to sell me landscaping services? Well, the one I don't have a house.
Steve Fretzin 10:03
Yet
Michael Norton 10:03
Yet yet yet, but what do I, you know, as I say, you know, unfortunately, at this time, you know, I don't have, you know, I'm unable to, to meet, you know, love to be connected in the future. And I think being forthright at the beginning about that is very important. Because otherwise, as you know, you can end up having 45 meetings in a week. And, you know, two thirds of them don't make any sense. So, you'll definitely, you know, tailoring that and I tell a lot of the young young professionals that I work with, you know, when they're going out to networking events, you hit it, there are specific types of people are looking to meet. And you don't want to be abrasive, you don't want to just dodge folks, but there, there's a point at which too many young people there are too many, inexperienced business developers can get bogged down in conversations at those events that are in no way profitable. So, you know, that's a, you just, you got to allocate your resources, although, you know, you're you're there, you're not going to meet a lot of great people, there are some people that just aren't going to be phenomenal for you, I I kind of Judge event, you know, by, if I'm there per hour, and I meet two or three people that are worthwhile per hour, I'll say that there was a relatively good event for me. Whereas, you know, if I'm not, if I just come back, and I see a stack of cards, well, that's that. That's, that's not the best use of my time.
Steve Fretzin 11:36
Yeah, I mean, I'm, uh, I'm old. So I'm a stick in the mud. So like, if I, you know, this is, you know, go to an event or something like that, backing it back when we could do that. And, and, you know, I, you know, if I'm there for an hour, and I can get those two to three cards, I'm gone. Like, I used to stay all night, I'd be the guy, the last guy to leave. And these days, because a time and because I'm old and crotchety, I guess, I just want to like, I want to get the job done, I want to move on. And now I've got two or three really good people to follow up with. And there might have been another five that I would have met, but I'm just not at the point where I'm willing to continue to push forward when, you know, when I sort of set a goal and met the goal.
Michael Norton 12:12
I agree with that. And I think there's a FOMO thing, you know, that fear of missing out that a lot of people, you know, they and they tend to stay longer, but then that can be detrimental, that I'm personally and professionally Yeah, yeah, you end up you know, being they're probably going to have a couple more drinks theory, there's a lot of things that you know, then, uh, you know, just they they they make they make the, it makes the rest of your week more difficult because you're stuck around till 11 o'clock at night? And no, was that really worth it? I think you have to have some goals going into those environments? No, I found some of the organizations that I'm involved with have had really good virtual networking things throughout COVID. And I've attended, but, you know, luckily, they're only an hour long. But I found that I make a lot of good contacts at them. But I just, you know, there again, there, you can only do so many of them. I know a lot of people that have data, their calendar with tons of those, like, how are you really going to be able to follow up all those people and have meaningful relationships with them after the fact. It's just, there's a time constraint timewise is not possible.
Steve Fretzin 13:23
And I think that's the biggest fear that lawyers have about networking is that the amount of time that they have to put into it, and what they're going to actually get out of it. And so while I'm a big advocate of networking, I run a bunch of networking groups in I'm in, you know, different, you know, things here in Chicago and nationally that that I do, the reality is that what I really try to help attorneys with, and maybe we can move to this point is you could attend events, and you could meet strangers, and you never know what you might find and and in the fear of missing out and all that. However, what about your network? What about the network, you've already built? The lawyers that you already know, the friends and family, the clients, the strategic partners, you've already developed people that have referred you business, let's move into that space. And how, how do you do at keeping in touch? How do you keep in touch? How do you develop relationships after you've given after you've, you've shared some value, and now you want to maintain?
Michael Norton 14:21
Well, I want to follow up but one thing is automate what I can automate. Yeah, I don't want to be spamming anyone. But if that can build in that there are folks that I want to regularly stay in touch with, I put that into the CRM that I use, and make sure that I calendar, you know, every x number of weeks, I'm going to stay in touch with a certain person. That's key. I think going to your well your excellent client base. The are CEOs that a great line and you know, the most likely person to pay you as someone who's already paid you, you know, and that's where you know you've done work for that those individuals those companies in the past, Why would you not want to maintain that relationship? And or if you have specific individuals who have referred you business in the past? Why would you not want to stay in front of them and spend part of that time that you allocate towards business development towards that? Is this account this account, it has sent me, X number of clients? Do I need 15 other accountants in my, in my business network? Or, you know, should I just keep working that particular person, and then see how then I can also add value to their network, using other pieces of my network? You know, I think that's a huge thing that's overlooked. And, you know, because some people that, you know, don't quite understand the relationship building process, you know, see it as a numbers game. And, you know, I am definitely one that does not believe the traditional sales funnel, you know, works within the consulting environment, and you're a business when your service provider is there, there is a numbers game, there is a numbers thing in terms of, if you hit enough people, maybe something will happen. But if they don't know who you are, they don't understand what you do. And they don't, then you're not relevant to them when they need your services. And because you didn't do this, the right level of follow up, well, you're not going to get their business, that's just, that's just the way it works.
Steve Fretzin 16:25
Yeah. And it sounds like it's quality over quantity. And if you can find one quality CPA that really gets networking and can feed you, you know, five to 10, three, to six, I mean, you come up with a number of what what would be meaningful, but you know, if they can send you those kinds of opportunities, because they're regularly coming across them, that's going to be so much better than trying to network with with 10, CPAs, you know, half of which don't, you know, don't know what the heck they're doing. And the other half, you know, we're just just, you know, you know, there's not following through and you're having to continually, you know, reach out to them to touch base. So you got to kind of look for the needle in the haystack sometimes.
Michael Norton 17:04
For sure, for sure. And I think those are really, really good at developing business get that? And I think the Yeah, there's a point. A lot of people have looked at earlier, LinkedIn contacts or whatever, and you see 8000 people, do you really know 1000? People? I mean, is that is that is that even humanly possible? It's all if I meet someone at a conference, and they link and when they find that, I'll take it. But, you know, I don't use that as okay, well, I have 1000 people on going out, do I probably have, you know, a few 100 that I realistically do stay in touch with frequently. And some of those folks, if they're at a group that we do work with, or, you know, they're in positions to refer us business, sure, they're part of the email chain. If I'm in their city, at some point, maybe we have coffee, but that's not going to be the best use of my time. But to use my time is to work with those people that really do know me. And, you know, I think a lot of people during COVID, I've really seen that, because if you can only develop relationships, so you know, new relationships, so well, virtually, no, I found that you can introduce your services pretty well. But you don't have that, that in person touch that you that you know, a lot of people want.
Steve Fretzin 18:25
Well, I agree with that, I would, I would say that one of the things I've been working on really aggressively with my clients has been preparation for zoom calls. And, and so we have to work maybe a little bit harder than in the past where, you know, if I walk into your office, and I can make some chitchat about your office, or about the weather or about someone we have in common, that's, that's fine. And that's going to work. And we'll take 10, 15 minutes to talk about whatever. And I think today with with zoom, you got to be efficient, but I think you have to really do your research to look at something that's meaningful to the other person, it could be something they wrote or something they posted or something that you heard them on a podcast, whatever it might be, that's going to kind of get them excited about, Oh, I can't believe you saw that, or I can't believe you know, that or, you know, whatever, and don't stalk them obviously, don't be you know, don't be you know, I saw your children were at, you know, the mall. I mean, that's that guy, but, but the idea that the idea that you that you need to be a little more prepared and get into get into the thick of things, but, you know, start off with from a position of power through knowledge and practice and preparation.
Michael Norton 19:31
Oh, yeah. And, you know, the good thing about that is, there is a ton of information out there, you know, there that's in there, for the vast majority of executives that I interact with, I can find out a good amount of information and what I've done, you know, in the virtual environment, if it's a pre scheduled meeting, I just dual screen my my computer and I just I have a couple of bullet points, you know, and I'm not maybe I'm not going to run through all of them because I don't want to be sound you know, like a robot, but there are certain things that you know, it's like, oh, you went to such a such college or you were part of this fraternity? Are there certain things you see on their LinkedIn profile? Or to your point? Sorry, spoke on? XYZ. You know, that's, that's, you know, that's really interesting. And people like to talk about themselves. So if you, yeah, highlight a few things. That's great. I mean, I, one of my tricks that I tell everyone is one of the greatest greatest gifts you can give someone is, you know, when they're having a baby, the I go to their webs, their LinkedIn, you know, I find what college they want to send them a juanzi. It's a $15. I mean, I've never gotten that the response that I got, I still remember, they were an attorney runs a world very large law firms, private equity practice. And the response that I got, when I started sent him a baby Iowa football jersey, was like, no other pics, I got I started getting pictures, you know, everything. And he liked it, because it showed that I actually spent a little bit of time and it was something more personal than, you know. A little, Thank you, or a little follow up saying Congrats, you know, it gave that little personal touch.
Steve Fretzin 21:16
Yeah, that's great. That's great. Hey, let's go back to something we were talking about a few minutes ago. And just just put a finer point on it. So you mentioned that you have a CRM, which stands for client management retention tool, or client retention management was something like that. Anyway, and that's, that's a software that that kind of gives you reminders of people you need to follow up with. But what are some other what are some other tips and tricks that you could share? That you just gave one with a with a with a football jersey, but keeping in touch with the people you've already developed relationship? I think that's that's a that's an art form? You know, that's something that is it's almost a lost art form, because I don't think too many people do it or do it well?
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think there are certain easy tools. One, you know, what, scheduling software that links up with Outlook, you know, I, that's easy. It's something that I always put in an email, you know, if you love to follow up with, you know, this link has all of my, you know, my availability for the next six weeks, if you feel free to grab that just slide on there something very easy, when you're sending out a marketing email, that's not a automated email, it's something that's coming into your draft and yourself, taking the four seconds to drop down, and put a reminder in, and I just put a reminder, and it reminds me to follow up on if I don't hear back in four to six weeks, you know, again, I don't want to get to the never want to get to the point where I'm just spam. It just doesn't get no one, nobody wants to I get a knock. I every morning, I go through my email, and I probably have 100 emails just to delete. And I don't I don't want to be at that point. But you know, if I have that every six, eight, whatever cadence I want to get into with a specific individual, it's not that big of a deal. It's not that big of an undertaking to just a little drop down and outlook. And it just says reminder, that place a reminder, they're inserted into your calendar automatically. So that, you know, that's easy. Some of the more difficult things that you know, I tend to do, you know, I'll put together a list of, you know, people that have certain personal interests, you know, I'm personally I'm a big golfer, and I you know, if it comes up that I someone's a golfer, I'll add them to my list of golfers because I actually will put that put together my own networking, golf outings and have 32 people go out, but I try to be very, very cognizant of what they do and who would be good for them to me, but other small things, you know, where they learn, they're the arts, they're into sports, whatever the case may be, I have a running list of folks that are, you know, have common interests. And if I'm going to, you know, say hey, let's all go get drinks, I'll invite eight people from the common interest area, and, you know, we at least have one thing that we all get on, it's not just me, I'm not the only connector. It's we're all there to, you know, watch a bulls game, or..
It's called an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, Michael, and
Michael Norton 24:24
That to, you know, that's the, you know, that is one thing you got to be careful to I think a lot of people that get started on business development, you know, they they don't realize that you know, they can you can you end up having a few really rough morning, it's good to hear you're not paying attention.
Steve Fretzin 24:40
Yeah. Well, it sounds it. Yeah, it sounds like you know, really focusing on what people's interests are focusing on, you know, how you can connect with them on a personal level. I think that's really that's really key and again, not done, nearly enough for at the level that it could or should be. I was just talking with a client of mine earlier, actually someone i want to introduce you to he's in the in the benefits space executive comp and i think you to hit it off really well but we were talking about you know getting getting you know people together for wine tasting like just doing a three way between between someone at your firm and someone that you want someone at your firm to me or it was a matter of you know getting articles that are relevant and putting them out to your clients or putting them out to people and just how do you continually stay in front of people without it feeling like you said automated or or like it isn't personalized right i think people like the personal attention and i think facetime is important maybe now more than ever as people are more siloed and and feeling alone and everything that that you know to feel appreciated to feel like they're they're getting those touches and think it's really going to separate the wheat from the chaff here as it relates to relationships.
Michael Norton 25:52
Oh yeah absolutely and i think there's absolute pent up demand for in persons i mean everyone everyone i speak to wants to get back out wants to be you know in front of people because you can make that personal connection far easier in that in person environment but you got to work with it you got right now you know some and some people are more willing to meet with you some people are more willing to be in outdoor environments and hopefully we'll have weather that we're allowed to do that you know in the not so distant future so i think we're getting back to that but it's going to be a solid 12 to 18 months until i think we're really back and some people may hear that and say no no well i'll be vaccinated and we'll be back i disagree with that you know i think there's there's gonna be we'll be vaccinated but then there'll be a comfort level thing and you so doing doing what you can now to stay relevant and you know again make meaningful connections while you can during this it's so important because you know business goes on.
Steve Fretzin 26:58
Yeah, yep and so kind of kind of wrapping things up you know lawyers struggle with with you know networking they struggle with you know keeping in touch in the time management piece and everything i think you know you and i've kind of collaborated to figure out you know give a couple of good takeaways any other secret michael norton tips that you would that you want to put out there that just go you know this is this was a defining you know moment for me or tip that i use or something that really helped me you know move my way through through all this minutia of of time sucking networking that can exist if done inefficiently.
Michael Norton 27:34
Well one one good thing i started to do this much more i got really bad at it was scheduling in some of the admin peace hey the i think the you know that follow up the if you do have a crm or some system that you're using actually writing those notes in that takes time you know and it that's not a easy process so definitely putting aside time for that i having some kpi in place that's going to you know if you want to make x number of contacts a week or you have y number of meetings a week whatever that case may be have something to hold yourself to yeah that's huge.
Steve Fretzin 28:16
Most people don't do that key performance indicators having some type of goal for the week or the day or the month or anything i would say i mean i do that with all my clients i actually put them on what's called an activities journal which is just short of a crm but it really looks at it you know you want to have so many meetings a month that's going to take so many calls that's gonna take so many events like it all works towards what the end result is which is introductions and prospects you know prospective client meetings but that's how i'm keeping track of my clients and making sure that they're held accountable to themselves and to me as their coach but but i think lawyers need to you know not everybody's gonna work with me or know what you're doing so they've got to have their own system of how they're going to track and set goals and achieve goals.
Michael Norton 29:02
I agree with that and i also think you know there you go tracking is key if you're not tracking it what how do you know you're doing doing any better but also starting with with a list start from a place of you know whom i ask whom i actually targeted because it's a big world and you know it for lawyers is it i'm going to i want to target general counsel at companies i assume would be a big one but you know who is that list who are those people you know and to your point from earlier is there anyone within my network that can speed that along you know you take the time to research the person's oh they're at you know look at linkedin they're connected to so and so is that a strong connection can i actually use that as an introduction but i think most people most in in regardless of industry do not start with a list they just start.
Steve Fretzin 29:55
Yeah not only list but to but to your point targeted lists like, who are your targets there GCS at specific types of companies that can be sized that can be industry that can be geography, you know, the more detailed you can get, I mean, that that's going to help you help your networking. I mean, if I could tell you, Michael, exactly who I'm looking for, you're going to know whether or not you know those people. And if you can make an introduction versus me saying, Oh, I work with everybody, I do everything for everybody. Well, that's, that's gonna be very, you know, bad as it relates to, you know, getting, you know, get a real focused introduction.
Michael Norton 30:30
I agree with that. And I was, candidly, I was very bad at that at the outset, I didn't, I had the general list, well, I want to work with these types of people. But these types of people is very broad. And it was not, it was like, Okay, now, I need xy and z, three, three types of folks that refer me business, that's who I want to be, you know, and that's who I spend my time with, because most of my businesses referral, you know, and I think the, you know, even that applies to all, all industries, not just mine, I mean, any, any lawyer can do that. It just taking the time to do it, is key, and I don't think anyone actually takes the time. You know, especially I see a lot of it. A lot of my friends that are, you know, when I was a 2011, grad for law school, so a lot of my friends are transitioning into partner now. And, you know, many of them are paying me because my job is business development, their job is not, and how do you do it? And I, it's, it's amazing that, you know, they're being thrown into the world, oh, well, you're a senior, you're almost a partner, or you've just made partner now you gotta bring in business. Now, does that mean, you know, and how do I do that? They just start going. And it's like, well, you stop to stop what you're doing right now and take two steps back and figure out who it is you want to meet with, and then start that process over again. Because, you know, you're thrown thrown to the lions, and you just don't have clue what you're doing.
Steve Fretzin 31:59
Yeah, and the analogy that that my, my audience has heard me say is like, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to go into a courtroom, and I'm going to start, you know, running a jury trial, right? I mean, that's probably not going to go so well for me. And so so when lawyers get thrown to the thrown out into the open and say, Hey, you know, you're a partner now go get business. And it's that same feeling where they can sort of fake it, or they can try it out, work it or they can try to make it happen. But the reality is that business development, networking, all the things that you and I do there learn skills, we either do that we learn them through mistakes, and trial and error, or we learn them because we learn from better people than us that teach us things and, and that's the goal. And if you can cut through all that through talking to you or talking to me, or whatever, like that's going to be a much better way than sheer force of effort, which is a Neil Dishman ism, who's a deal Dishman? So, oh, yeah. Yeah, he was on my show. Right. So. So I think that that is great to, you know, to get advice from someone like you or myself and and we're always happy to give advice. There's no cost for advice, you know, but it's, it's something that would be helpful and would be meaningful to others than then we'll do it.
Michael Norton 33:04
Oh, yeah. And I agree with that. And I think the, you know, it's, it's, I like it when people ask me that question, because I want I like, I don't mind imparting it, but I'd be like, Oh, well, it's come So naturally, you know, it, didn't I? I did. I did my research, I read my books, I read my net, my never eat alone. And all those other, you know, the gurus and all that, but I did my did my research. And yes, I'm a more extroverted person than most of my boyfriend's. I won't say but you know, that. Yeah, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily a better business developer. I, you know, I went out without, you know, a game a game plan for a year and a half before I really figured it out. And in that was a lot of misplaced time misplaced effort. But yeah, that happens. But you know, then I was like, Wait a second. What am I doing wrong here? Why? Why are these? Emily's great what I thought were great meetings. Marcy is converting into clients. Why aren't these converting into like referrals? and turned out I wasn't asking the right questions. I wasn't staying focused. I was getting it was filling up my calendar with 3040 meetings a week and now. Yeah, they were meeting it was activity for activity sake.
Steve Fretzin 34:16
Yeah. Well, you're you're you're preaching to the choir, my friend. I mean, we were we're almost like, we I think we live this very similar life there for a while. And, you know, fortunately, both of us have figured it out. And I think we both been very successful at at not only you know, doing business development effectively, but also helping others to, to do it as well. Let me ask you, for people that want to reach out to you for, you know, deals valuations or just to get to know, you know, the guy I know, how do they reach out to you what's the what's the best way to get in touch with you
Michael Norton 34:47
You know, ping me via email and ping me via LinkedIn are probably the two best ways to get in front of me. I get my email address out it's mnortan@Houlihancapital.com and I'm always willing to talk to people. And then you know, getting me via LinkedIn is, is great as well. You can always go to our website Houlihancapital.com for any further information.
Steve Fretzin 35:11
Yeah, and I'm gonna have you know Michael's contact information in the show notes as well. So hey, Michael, just want to thank you for for taking some time to be on the show to share your knowledge and expertise in networking, business development, relationship building with my audience and, and I just, I can't thank you enough
Michael Norton 35:28
Of course Steve. I appreciate I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you very much.
Steve Fretzin 35:31
Hey, man, my pleasure. And so everybody Hey, listen, if you couldn't take a couple things away from this show, then you're you're out of your mind. So we had a good time. And again, I think it's it's really important to get organized with your business development efforts, as we talked about and start to make it a part of how you do business on a day to day week to week basis. And look at the end of the day, it's all about being that lawyer someone that is confident and organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, everybody be well be safe.
Narrator 36:04
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.