In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Matt Formeller discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Once you meet somebody, if you hit it off, the worst thing you can do is just forget about them and assume they're gonna call you. It's a two-way street." — Matt Formeller
Connect with Matt Formeller:
Website: formellerlaw.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/matthewformeller & linkedin.com/company/formeller-&-formeller-llp
Twitter: twitter.com/FormellerLaw
Instagram: instagram.com/fnfllp
Facebook: facebook.com/Formellerlaw
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Matt Formeller 0:00
Sure I was getting in front of a lot of people, but it wasn't necessarily an efficient use of my time and it wasn't an efficient use of their time. And so I kind of sat down and re evaluated. What do I need to do to first meet people? And I'm not even talking about the second stage of it, which is staying on people's radar. It was just how do I meet the right people?
Narrator 0:28
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:51
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, and your host, and I appreciate you spending some time with me today. And you know, it's all about being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and part of that is learning from other lawyers that have kind of been in your shoes that have their own ways and ideologies about things. And today's guest is no different. This is a friend of mine and just a terrific guy, a terrific networker. And he's the co founder of formula and formula. And that is Matt Formeller. How's it going, Matt?
Matt Formeller 1:21
It's going well, thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 1:23
Good. It's good to see you without, you know, kids hanging on your arms and all that kind of stuff.
Matt Formeller 1:28
Yeah, no, I'm glad to be cordoned off here and give my full attention to this.
Steve Fretzin 1:34
Okay, well, I appreciate that. So do do me a favor and just share a little bit more about your your law, practice what you do and maybe how you came to be?
Matt Formeller 1:43
Sure. So I always start by telling people that I'm a triplet, and I have two sisters, and all three of us are lawyers. And part of that's by design, because it's such a unique position to be in. But also because it's part of who I am. My identity is, is really shared in part with my sisters, we've gone through life together, doing coincidentally a lot of the same things for very different reasons. And so when people have that look in their face, when I share with them that I am a triplet attorney, they kind of look at me and say, was that the plan? And I say no, it was ultimately, you know, we arrived at the same destination by taking different paths. And my law firm, started about nine and a half years ago with one of my siblings, Christina. And we started our practice, because we came out of law school around 2009, the markets weren't great. A lot of my classmates who were doing well in school like ourselves, just, you know, it was overly saturated, a lot of positions were being especially entry positions were kind of being put on hold for more senior associate positions. And so my my sister, Christina, she had always wanted to do her own thing. She always wanted to start our own practice. And our father is an attorney. He's chairman of a firm called Tressler midsize firm. And I grew up in that practice. You know, I worked there in high school and college and clerk there my first year of law school, everyone, you know, knew me as my father, son, which I'm honored to be, but at the same time, from a, you know, professional standpoint, one I wanted to pave my own path to, I identified some of the potential problems with even you know, thinking about wanting to try to work in a farm with my my dad. So when we came out of school, while I was looking for a job, I was helping my sister Christina, kind of get off the ground, and, you know, helping her where I thought to myself, why I'll talk to anybody, I'm not afraid to approach somebody, maybe I can get some work in the door for her. Which by By the way, it was a very naive position at the time, as you know, but I said, Let me help you. Let's see where this goes. And maybe two months later, an opportunity presented itself or this small firm said to my sister and I, Hey, why don't you guys formally start up? Together we have an extra office will rent you know, an office to you guys will throw you some bones will teach you some stuff. Honestly, I didn't want to work with my sister at the time. I wasn't sure that was a good idea. And my sister said to me that night Look, I'm doing this. He can't have you one foot out the door. So you're in your You're out. And I said, Okay, I'm in. So I was a quick change of thought. I just thought, you know what, let's give this a shot. And what we did our first few years was we were litigators. We tried all sorts of cases in different areas of law. And I found that most of it was unfulfilling to me. I didn't enjoy those those substantive areas and I didn't enjoy the cases we're working on. And I hatched this idea, this plan. You know, we enjoyed the business litigation. I said to my sister, what if we start doing some transactional work for for business owners. If there is litigation that arises in their businesses, they're just going to come to us. So we've our foot in the door, and she said, Okay, that's great. But we need to learn how to do that work. So through a lot of affiliating with with, you know, older, wiser lawyers and learning how to handle corporate matters, we became corporate lawyers. And that's sort of what we are today, our practice is a boutique corporate law firm, I would say, over 80%, of what we do is corporate transactional work for small businesses, where we are the legal arms of our business or our clients, businesses. I personally kind of serve as the bookends of our practice. So I do a lot of startup work with either, you know, purely new entrepreneurs or existing business owners that are starting, you know, other businesses or joint ventures, and then I do a lot of mergers and acquisitions work on the back end. And my sister focuses her time on the day to day corporate counsel work in the litigation
Steve Fretzin 5:56
And was the growth of that side of the practice and building that out something that you continue to have to go out and meet people and network To do or was it something that was sort of fed to you or just good fortune?
Matt Formeller 6:10
So I think that it was mostly the first option, which was I had to get on the hamster wheel, and just hit it hard. Because as a young lawyer, so first things first, I always tell people, I came out of law school, and I thought I knew something I didn't know anything. Law School taught me to think like a lawyer, which I value, but it didn't teach me to practice law didn't teach me how to run a business, talk to clients get clients. So I realized if we're going to be working with business owners, I need to get out and meet business owners or people that know business owners. And so I remember at the very early stage of that plan, I said to my sister, like, I'm going to be spending the majority of my time either learning this stuff, or getting out there and meeting people. And that's literally how I split my time for the first year as a transactional lawyer.
Steve Fretzin 7:04
Yeah. So what did that entail, then go when you say hamster wheel, you're going out and you're you have to go get the business? So what what kinds of activities were you engaging in? What was your kind of what was your, your your play?
Matt Formeller 7:15
So at first, it was aimless, you know, I was trying to meet with anybody that I could, and just try to tell my story and see if I could connect with people. And I realized a few months in that what I was doing was not very productive. You know, like, Sure, I was getting in front of a lot of people. But it wasn't necessarily an efficient use of my time. And it wasn't an efficient use of their time. And so I kind of sat down and re evaluated, what do I need to do to first meet people? And I'm not even talking about the second stage of it, which is staying on people's radar, it was just how do I meet the right people. And I had to do a lot of like, stepping outside of myself in doing some strategic planning, some, you know, visual mapping, talking to my sister and saying, you know, what's, you know, first, who are we? What do we do? You know, who do we work with? And how do we message that? And once we figure that out, I said, Now, how do I meet these people? What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to join organizations? Am I supposed to, you know, ask, you know, my, my peers from school, or friends to introduce me to people? And it was a trial by fire approach for sure.
Steve Fretzin 8:33
And ultimately, what did you figure out of how to get in front of the right people? What was the strategy or the actionable things that you did to change that from an aimless hamster on a wheel scenario, to a fruitful one for yourself and for your for your firm?
Matt Formeller 8:49
First, I realize that I went through this identity crisis where I thought, should I be more aggressive? Should I be, you know, commanding a bit more in trying to seem more confident or whatever the case was? And I realized, no, I need to be more like who I really am, which is, I just want to be a resource to people I want to be helpful what what I, what I decided to do was measure my fulfillment. And I said, What do I Why do I do what I do? You know, like, honestly, break it all down, you know, throw away all the superficial stuff. Truly, why did I choose to be this, this attorney running a small firm with my sister, you know, where my hair is turning gray or gray or by the day? The reason is, because it's extremely fulfilling to help people get from from A to B, in in, whether I'm I'm a catalyst or or the propelling force behind them. I just want to be helpful. And so the first thing I realized was one, you've got to start giving a lot more than you're getting. And you have to focus on that. And too, I realized you have to have a plan in place you have to define who you know, who are the right people. to ultimately meet when you're going to sit down for that direct hire scenario, and how do you, you know, it's almost like a path, how do you meet, you know, person a, person B, person C to get to that final person D, that sitting at the table saying, I want to hire you and your firm. And so, I did a lot of, you know, figuring this out planning, and came to this conclusion that one, I have to focus on a defined amount of people, I can't just meet 200 people and maintain those relationships, to, if I'm going to meet a set amount of people, I need to focus on helping those people and being a resource to them. In three, I have to start defining before I meet with somebody, why am I meeting with this person? If it goes, well? What are the next steps and what are my plans, you know, to continue this relationship, because I'm not naive. Once you meet somebody, if you hit it off, the worst thing you can do is just forget about them. And assume they're gonna call you it's a two way street.
Steve Fretzin 11:01
And it's hard because you've got work coming in, you've got new people you're meeting and the people you met a month ago, that seemed great at the time, drift away into the into the midst. And then if you don't have a system, or some way of tracking them down and staying on top of mine, then, you know, you almost like lose all that effort. And all that time that you've invested, it just sort of fades away?
Matt Formeller 11:22
Absolutely. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin 11:24
So it sounds like a couple just to recap, you know, number one, you sort of figured out the importance of being a resource, and that being a giver is better than being a taker, or being a giver is better than trying to like oversell yourself or try to, you know, put yourself up on a pedestal. So I think that's, that's a great takeaway for for people listening. The second one is that you have you created a clearly defined plan of who your targets are, and what the next step should be to keep top of mind. So those are things that again, most attorneys don't think twice about, they just go about the day. And then, you know, again, they're wondering, why am I not getting the business. And so this is a lesson learned everybody that, you know, Matt was, you know, had the, the forethought or that afterthought, to not just go about doing something, but to really give it sort of, like watching the game tapes or considering what's working, what's not working, and then make improvements, which is, you know, that's most of the problem that that we have with anything we want to accomplish, right? It's not observing what's going on and making those improvements. So Matt, it sounds like you did that really effectively over time? And then was there were there any other elements after or any other points that you want to share after the plan? And the follow through that that helped to continue this success?
Matt Formeller 12:39
Yeah, so a few things? Well, one, I love the sports analogy. And I think it's very appropriate. You know, I always say, if you're not growing, you're dying. And I don't mean scaling physically, what I mean is, if you're not bettering yourself, in internalizing, you know, or using introspection, saying, What am I doing? And can I do this better? Or having that hunger saying I can always do better? That's a big thing.
Steve Fretzin 13:04
Well, here's a here's an interesting analogy for lawyers, your your first trial as a litigator you ever had, and then you do it for 10 years? And are you litigating the same way as that first time? Well, if you are, you're dead, you're not you're going to be you're not going to be in business. Okay. And in business development, people aren't giving it the same thought. They're not giving it the same credit, as becoming a great lawyer. And I get that they're being a great lawyers, number one, and if you're making improvements, that's how you become a great lawyer become a successful lawyer. In business development, it's no different. You can't have the same networking meeting 10 years in a row, you've got to continue to evolve and get better and get smarter and make better decisions about either who you're meeting with how you're running the meeting, what's the next step? And just don't just just just like have the same day over and over? Right? And that's what I'm talking about?
Matt Formeller 13:57
Oh, yeah. Well, in there's so many things I look back at where, you know, my original pitch material revolved around a lot of buzzwords that most people that aren't lawyers wouldn't understand. And how are people going to think of me if they don't know what I do? And it's important to be able to explain to people hey, here's what I do on a daily basis, so that when these things are, you know, happening to you or people you know, you think of me, that's pretty basic. But something I also learned was one when I meet with people, it's not about me, it's I try to make it about them. I want to learn about them and what they're doing and and see how I can help them. Number one, because when I meet with people, and I'm sure you experienced too, when somebody is just in an unsolicited way, just kind of rambling about themselves for 25 minutes straight without, you know, you getting a word in edgewise. It's very unappealing. And it makes me not want to meet with that person ever again. So I don't want to be that person that does that to someone else. So I try my best to focus on them and ask them questions. And it's all circular too, because I may ask a provocative question that sparks a conversation that is a given in get. The other thing is I try to focus on getting to know the person, not the professional, where, for the most part, when I meet people, you know, like, I usually like to tell people, there's 80,000 lawyers in this state, we all do the same thing. You know, like, yes, there's different shades of good and bad. But for the most part, when I meet with somebody, it's not so much, I'm not telling them how good I am at what I do, I'm trying to get them to, I'm trying to open up to them. So they get to know me as a person. Because ultimately, when you're working with somebody intimately in the foxhole, if it's a complicated situation, or just a, hey, I want you to be our business's lawyer, they are likely going to want to work with somebody that they enjoy working with, that they share values with that they trust. And so it doesn't matter if it's the best lawyer you've ever met, if they're a jerk, or somebody you don't trust, you're not going to work with them.
Steve Fretzin 16:08
And I'll add to that, in saying that, if you look at like, what are humans basic needs, and you get food and you get water, and you get shelter, and wood fire, okay, we get that. What's next? Well, generally speaking, it's understanding it's that it's that understanding, empathy, feeling like you fit in or feeling like, there's, there's, you know, there's people out there for you. And when you don't have that, then there's something missing from the relationship. When I when I have somebody that doesn't understand me, or I feel I don't, this person doesn't understand me, that's not going to be a real long term relationship, that's not going to be something that's going to stick. So the idea that you're spending your time asking questions, building relationship, asking questions, and digging into the, to the prospect prospective clients problems, or even the clients problems, and then talking and you listening and empathy and all that, that's going to drive the business, the relationship, the long term, versus solving, selling, convincing telling, you know, and that goes for networking that goes for anything. So I think you're on a very strong path of your philosophy and methodology is very sound.
Matt Formeller 17:14
Yep, no, it's in I have found that I get I'm, when I'm meeting with people, you can almost see the, you know, the build up of the momentum of the conversation, and you can sort of see if the person's engaged and excited. And if you don't start in a way that you're, you know, Following this, this path, I find, you're going to get somebody who has a pretty bored look on their face trying to they're looking at their watch to see how much longer they have to sit there. Yeah, you know, politely excuse themselves, after a half hour kind of thing.
Steve Fretzin 17:52
something that I that I've been doing, because I wrote a book on networking. And one of the things I mentioned is how much time I wasted and how how brutal it was, because I was just so trying to outwork everybody, you know, I was the last guy at the networking, you know, cocktail party, and I was I was just everywhere, my wife was like, Where are you every night, I'm like, I'm trying to make the business work, you know, but but again, totally inefficient, and everything. So one of the things that I you know, that I figured out, and I'll share this with you, and I'll share this with the people, and you're probably doing this mad anyway, is the idea of setting expectations through the form of an agenda or game plan. So if I'm meeting with someone new, we can have a conversation, and it can go well, or it could go off the rails completely. I'm sort of over that, like, I'm sort of over the whatever happens happens, mentality, I personally don't have time for that. And as a lawyer billing hours, I don't know how anyone has time for the risk of a meeting going off the rails. So I established parameters, and get buy in from the other person so that we can have an engaging conversation, get to know each other. But it's sort of a loosely laid agenda or game plan. So I established time, I set expectations, what the purpose is, and and what are we trying to get out of this together. And when we agree on those things, then we're not worried about who's going to talk this much time or that much time. We're not worried about, you know, how much I'm going to give or take. It's all sort of established at the beginning. And then we can we can go into this with our eyes open. And I just find that there that the meetings are much more fruitful professional. And that doesn't work with everybody. I've talked to some people and I'm with improvisers like you are and, and nothing about California people but they're they just didn't you know that they're surfing USA Baby, you know, they just they just want to have fun and have it loose. And that's, that's wonderful. I love the concept. I've just been down that path so many times that for me, it just doesn't work. And I just I need to have. It's not that I'm not building relationships either. I mean, that's a part of that of this meeting. However, you know, if somebody wants to talk about their kids and their trip to Disney for 45 minutes, I'm probably going to kill myself and nobody needs my blood on their hands. So the These are things that I've learned, you know, let me show you a picture of my 27. Cats. I mean, it this, these things happen, right? So we have to. So I'm just trying to do a little a little time protection, but it benefits both parties going in with our eyes open. Have you found that to be? or something? If you do something similar to that? Or do you find that you're going into it? We're just kind of hoping for the best?
Matt Formeller 20:19
No, I think that's absolutely true. I, I always appreciate. So I would say as a lawyer, you know, communication is key. And effective communication is, is really the key. And so when you're upfront with somebody and transparent about this meeting, you know, it's, it's not that it's militant, where you're like, Look, we're sticking to this 10 minutes, you go 10 minutes ago, it's just you're setting parameters and boundaries, so that everyone understands. And by the way, what I find is that concept, when I meet with people, sometimes they're uncomfortable addressing it themselves, but if I handle it upfront, and say, Hey, the reason we're meeting is x, you know, I think we would, you know, be great partners in this or that or that, you know, I have this group of people, I think you'd really benefit from knowing And likewise, or something, you're setting the table already. And you'll know pretty quickly if that's going to be fruitful or not. And, you know, it's not that you're wasting your time, or they're wasting their time, it's just like you said, My time is my inventory. And if I'm not wisely using my time, I don't want to work 100 hours a week, I want to be, you know, I have three boys five and under, I want to spend as much time with my boys as I can. So I don't want to have to work from, you know, six in the morning till eight at night, every night because I'm being inefficient. Doing this stuff.
Steve Fretzin 21:43
Yep, exactly, exactly. So, again, anything you can do to put processes in place, or have systems or have a way of doing something that's going to be efficient and communicate and get to a result more quickly, whether that's a friendly relationship, a new piece of business, in some cases, you know, one thing I work on with my clients on a fairly regular basis is disqualifying, right? disqualifying someone as a strategic partner that you're networking with. And there's a number of reasons why someone might not be qualified to network with you or move forward with you. Or even even clients, you know, clients that can't pay clients that don't fit your structure clients that are crazy. And in litigation, you got to kind of take the crazy as they come. But in transactional you absolutely do not. And it's so there's so there's a number of things that that I think help with efficiency. Are you are you finding that to be the case as well, where you're you're you're you're in a point where you have enough information to disqualify people that maybe aren't a good fit.
Matt Formeller 22:41
Yeah, so that was gonna be my next point in a few ways. That's absolutely true. So when I meet with somebody, to use another sports analogy, you know, you've got your roster of top 20 people or something. And it's a living, breathing roster. It's not set in stone. So just like I believe I'm on someone else's roster, if I'm not coming through for them. And I'm not keeping them in mind, why should they keep me in mind. And so when I'm meeting with with people, I've got my priority, where I say these 20 people are really, really beneficial to me and my practice, they always think of me, I'm top of mind to them, they always refer me to great people, they send me business, but if any of those folks through time, you know, and I try to keep my efforts, you know, moving forward, where I'm trying to keep in touch and send them, you know, introductions, information, inviting them to things, but if they're not doing the same thing, eventually, while I don't keep score, you know, I'm not saying I'll do this for you if you do this for me. But if I'm doing this for you 15 times that I don't get anything in return, maybe there's someone else that can take that spot, that that is going to think of me more that can help me grow. So that's one thing. Another thing is exactly right. with clients. I always say life's too short in a lot of ways. It's not that tomorrow could be it, it's just every day we move forward is one less day we have and I just don't want to work with people that I don't want to work with, you know, it's it's not worth being miserable. I already deal with enough stressful situations as an attorney, you know, some of the complex adversarial issues or some of the transactions. I don't need the personality issues to get, you know, toppled on top, you know, where I'm like, Okay, now I'm dealing with somebody that I dread calling or talking to. So my philosophy is if it's somebody where it's not a fit, I'm very kind about how we will separate but I just say I don't do my best work in this scenario. You know, I think we should part ways.
Steve Fretzin 24:49
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's okay. And you know, you can stay friends with people. It's just a matter of you have limited time as you mentioned, and also, you know, you can only have so many people on your roster. I mean, if you network with CPAs, I mean, you can't have 30 CPAs that you're, you know, providing, you know, leads to or connections to, there's just no way to manage that those kinds of numbers, but could you manage two CPAs, right. And if it's the two best, and it's just like a baseball team, right, you the two best, you know, players that you can find for a particular position or for multiple positions. So, I think when you you know, when you mentioned that, I, I look at myself as a baseball Scout, and I'm out there scouting, and I try to put myself in the right places where the right people are going to be. And then on top of that, I try to bring them up slowly to try to understand their capacity to play, and to play, you know, evenly and fair and in a way that we're going to enjoy, so that it can be, you know, a harmonious relationship. And, to your point in which was wonderful is, that's a moving, it's a moving, living, breathing thing. And so yeah, your your third baseman gets injured while you got to pull them off the roster and bring somebody up from the minors. And in that could be the CPA that stops referring you because the CPA found a better person to refer a different person or for whatever it might be. And and then you need to bring up that bring up someone else. So in fact, years ago, years ago, Matt, you might find this this visual, I used to have a cork board up. And on the cork, this is back when we were giving out business cards and getting business cards, I can't remember the last time I've seen a business card, but I had a cork board and on that cork board was 12 business cards, and those that was my roster, and it was sort of a ceremonial thing that when someone would start blowing me off or not returning my emails or whatever, I would pull their pin art off the corkboard, right? And then I'd say, well, who's who's up next to? Do I have to replace this? Or do I have to go find a new CPA, go find a new financial advisor, whatever, to replace this person who's now off my list. So I don't know if that resonates? Yeah, but that's kind of the visual of what you're talking about.
Matt Formeller 26:51
Absolutely. And it's, you know, what you don't want to be is in like the Chicago Bears situation where key and you know, key player gets injured, and you have no one, you know, worthwhile to serve as a backup, you know, you bank on these things happening to a degree. So when you look at your you know, your roster of folks that you're you're engaging with routinely, it is ultimately going to happen a few times where you have somebody that is becoming less dependable or reliable. And you're going to, you're going to want to have those relationships in place where somebody can seamlessly just move back up into their place, that's going to be equally helpful to you as you are to them.
Steve Fretzin 27:30
So, Matt, we're kind of wrapping up here. And is there anything else that you want to share? Before we before we kind of give our final thoughts?
Matt Formeller 27:39
You know, it's, I think some of the points to highlight. You know, it's something that nobody is an expert at. And as, as time moves forward, and circumstances change, like we talked about, you need to evolve as a business developer, look at what's happened in the past year, I was honestly in March, kind of looking at things pessimistically for my business and saying, I'm not sure what it's going to look like in six months or a year. And I was truly surprised and not surprised at the same time at the end of the year, when I looked and saw that we did better last year than we did the year before. And it's because we adapt and pivoted. And we recognized, you know, in this pandemic, here's how people are connecting, we need to grow with this, this trend. And we need to embrace the the zoom thing and the virtual format of meeting people and make the best of it, where I will tell you the beginning of the pandemic, I met so many people that were like, I don't like this, this virtual thing, it feels artificial. And in my head, I'm thinking, well, you better get used to it. Because this is going to be sort of the norm for a while. And now all I hear from people is I'm going to incorporate these virtual meetings into my daily habits after the pandemic. And, you know, it's so convenient to be able to wrap three meetings in a row where I don't have to travel around to three different Starbucks.
Steve Fretzin 29:02
It's funny, I was thinking the other day, and I'm in the loop of Chicago, and I'm walking from meeting to meeting, you know, mile across the loop and the snow is coming down sideways and filling up my ear and I get to the meeting and I shake all my stuff off. And then I have the meeting. And then I just say God, I just I'm loading the walk back to my office and all that. So it's not that I don't want to walk around the city anymore, but I just I for some reason. There's certain memories that I have that. Yeah, this virtual situation is not not so horrible. And I know it's tough. It's been tough on a lot of people and we want to recognize that but for others it's been it's been sort of a blessing in disguise. Man, I just want to share that. You know, your reputation as a lawyer, your reputation as a solid networker in the Chicagoland area is very well known. And I want to tell you, I appreciate you being on the show and sharing your story and sharing some of the lessons that you've learned. Because I think there's a lot of lawyers like you that have an opportunity to develop and grow and be better than who they were last year. on a number of levels and so so I think your, your story is quite inspiring. And, and I think it's something people can, can try to emulate.
Matt Formeller 30:07
No, I truly appreciate that I'm honored to be on here with you having a mutual amount of respect for you and what you do, in just being able to share my story with people, where I truly started with zero clients, and had to learn the hard way, you know, to grow a book of business. And, you know, when I look back, I look now and say, Man, I wish I knew then what I know now, I'd be in a different place. But I'm so fortunate to be where I'm at now. So there's only one way to go forward. And that's up.
Steve Fretzin 30:39
God and if people want to reach out to you for networking purposes, or to throw some business your way, how do they get in touch with you?
Matt Formeller 30:46
So you know, you can always find our contact information on our website, my law firms website is www.formellerlaw.com it's just our last name within la w after it. And you know, my emails pretty long and it's on there. So I don't want to burden anybody, it will take five minutes to read out loud, but all of our informations on there. And honestly, I encourage anybody, even if they're looking to just connect and learn a bit more about how I was able to learn to develop business, I'm always happy to share and talk to others and help them grow.
Steve Fretzin 31:24
Well, that's much appreciated. And listen, I want to thank you all for listening today and spending some time with with Matt and myself. And again, hopefully you're getting one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care and be safe, everybody. Bye Bye.
Narrator 31:43
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.