In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Mark Rockwell discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"You cannot scale until you achieve consistency. You cannot achieve consistency until you have some type of process." — Mark Rockwell
Connect with Mark Rockwell:
Website: coachrockwell.com
Email: Mark@coachrockwell.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/coachrockwell
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Mark Rockwell 0:00
It's three qualities that you need to look for in every one of your associates or in frankly, in any employee. First of all, are they humble? Are they number two hungry? And number three, are they smart. If they don't possess all three of those qualities, you are not going to have an individual that you're going to be happy with. If they possess all three of those qualities, you're probably going to have a rock star.
Narrator 0:31
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for drilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:53
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And I hope that you're having a great day so far. And I want to introduce a terrific guy I've met recently who I thought would be just amazing for the show. You can call him mark, you can call him coach. Just don't call him late to dinner. And that is coach Mark Rockwell. How's it going? Mark?
Mark Rockwell 1:13
Good morning. It's going great. And it's a beautiful day here in Lake Oswego, Oregon, at least, at least a 12. On a scale of one to 10.
Steve Fretzin 1:20
Okay, okay. So you're you're going a little off the charts. But that's how passionate you are about great weather. Yes, indeed, in spring in the northwest is always welcomed. Yeah. And in Chicago as well. People. I think I just saw something that said Illinois is like, the least liked state to live in. And I feel like that's offensive. Because we do have beautiful summers. And everything else is sort of that great. We have nice falls, but I don't know everybody. People should stop complaining about Illinois. It's a lovely place. Hmm, maybe not. Okay. I got a little negative feeling there from you. But that's okay. Oregon. I hear that's lovely, too. I've not been there. But here it's scored? Oh, you're missing out? Let me tell you, you're missing out. We'll have to check it out off to check it out. Well, on to bigger and better things other than the weather report. Do me a favor, if you would just give a little background in on being because I know that you're a lawyer, but you've turned coach, and what's that all about? Give us a little background?
Mark Rockwell 2:14
Well, trying to keep it real quick. after law school I, under the ticket in the state of Washington got my bar. But I went straight into corporate management went from manufacturing made a transition into real estate. After having a successful real estate development firm for a number of years, I transitioned into health care. And during health care of my health care business, I was introduced really to the concept of coaching and how much it helped me and my business. And so when I sold the majority of my firm, about two years ago, I realized that what I really wanted to do was spend my time working with lawyers and entrepreneurs, to help them take their business to the next level.
Steve Fretzin 2:57
That's terrific. That's not a new story. I think that there's a lot of people that are very successful in their own law practices, whether that's business development, marketing operations that then have this epiphany that they can take their expertise and knowledge and what it all that maybe the things that they've learned, mistakes they've made, that they've converted, and they're able to share that wisdom with people that are up and coming. So I love that you do that. So good stuff, man. So let me ask you this, when you think about law firms and the challenges that they face on a day to day basis, whether we're pre pandemic, pandemic or after the pandemic, what are kind of the top things that you see law firms having challenges with these days?
Mark Rockwell 3:37
Well, I think that in law firms, as in many businesses, there's a lack of clarity, there's a certain level of chaos. And and there's just not a real clear path forward as to what they want to do where they want to go. And that really manifests itself in a lot of confusion and turnover in staff, and really an inability to scale the firm. So I always advise every business and every lawyer, the first thing you need to do is really get clarity as to what you want to do, where you want to go, and what your firm is going to look like in three to five years. And without that roadmap, it's really difficult to get all the other pieces to fall into place.
Steve Fretzin 4:26
So is this a message really more for a managing partner? Is this a message for an associate who's really steering the ship? And is this message for them?
Mark Rockwell 4:37
Well, the message actually would be first and foremost for the managing partner or managing partners. And, you know, it's amazing how much lack of clarity there is inside of many law firms as to really how to recruit people how to retain them, what the purpose and vision of the firm is, and they're going about their work on a daily basis, working really, really hard and turning out a lot of good work, but being completely exhausted. And a lot of it comes back to really a lack of vision and definition as to what the firm is all about. And very oftentimes, there's a lack of processes, most of the information is retained in the heads of individuals, oftentimes, that information is conflicting. And so that means that a lot of effort and a lot of time is spent in duplicating activities, and really causing a lot of frustration. So if someone asked me, What is my role, I would say, My role is to help guide a client from confusion and chaos, to clarity, competency, and confidence.
Steve Fretzin 5:53
Got it. Got it. And so is it in part that most or many law firms are successful in getting the work done and in bringing in business or not bringing business maybe that but just the sustainability of the business they have, where they're just busy. And so they don't think ahead, or they don't think about making improvements until they're sort of in the middle of a problem or the middle of recruitment snafu or an operational snafu. And then they're just being reactive versus being proactive? Is that what you're kind of where you would want to lean them towards that? proactivity?
Mark Rockwell 6:24
Well, actually, you're absolutely right, I would even back up one step. And say that, really to be successful, I would encourage every law firm to first and foremost see themselves as a business. And I know that that is not always universally embraced by every lawyer. But in fact, law firms just like every other form of business, have three components, get the work, do the work, and get paid for the work. And so until a law firm starts to see itself definitionally as a business, and starting to put and starts to put in processes and procedures, and conducts themselves in that fashion. It really is extremely difficult to get any type of rhythm or fly whale, if you will, of velocity and grow.
Steve Fretzin 7:19
So let's take your role a little further. I'm assuming that a big part of it is the evaluation process. So you would meet with a managing partner? What are some of that? So let's roleplay let's actually have some fun here this morning. And let's roleplay through so I'm the managing partner of a 30 person law firm. Now I work with so many managing partners and have in the past that I know their businesses pretty well. And I know the kinds of things that they're doing not doing so what kinds of questions would you ask me in? And then I can share the kinds of answers that I have? And then we'll see where we go from there.
Mark Rockwell 7:50
Okay, well, one of the first things I would want to know is really, what is their vision? What is his vision, assuming it's a it's a male, and he's the managing member, that one of the first things I would want to ask is, so tell me about your firm? Tell me about what your vision is for the firm. And tell me what you see as being your core values. And the reason I would ask that question, is the core values really, I think a better term for that is what are the core behaviors? What are the core qualities that you're looking for in your associates? What type of people are you attempting to hire and retain?
Steve Fretzin 8:29
Well, that brings up a good point, you know, I'm dealing with a lot of people that expect to have a work life balance when I need them to get the workout. And so I expect them to work as hard as I work because I have a good work ethic.
Mark Rockwell 8:41
Well, certainly everybody would need to have a good work ethic. I think that's a that's an absolute given. But what type of culture other than just hard work and sweating armpits? What type of environment are you attempting to create? Is it one that is collegial? Is it one that is client focused? Is it one that is just get the work done at any cost? What is the underpinning essence of the firm that is going to be really used if you will to hire, fire, recognize and reward your associates? What kind of person are you looking for?
Steve Fretzin 9:19
Right? So we're looking for someone that's going to work hard, we're looking for someone that's going to get along with everybody. We're looking for someone that fits the culture of we've got like a nice person culture. So we're not we don't want to bring any jerks and someone that's going to upset the applecart. And so we're just trying to find, you know, hungry associates that are willing to work hard and get the work knocked out. Because we have so much work right now. We've never been busier.
Mark Rockwell 9:42
So to use a simple test. I really like something that Pat lencioni Patrick lencioni wrote several years ago, in a book called The ideal team player, and he says and I really subscribe to this idea. It's really simple. It's three qualities that you need to look forward to. Every one of your associates or in frankly, in any employee, first of all, are they humble? Are they number two hungry? And number three, are they smart? If they don't possess all three of those qualities, you are not going to have an individual that you're going to be happy with. If they possess all three of those qualities, you're probably going to have a rock star.
Steve Fretzin 10:24
Yeah, I like that a lot. If I could find people for my firm that were, I forgot the first one. I think it was hard working..
Mark Rockwell 10:30
Humble.
Steve Fretzin 10:31
Oh, no, that was a second one. Humble was the second one smart was the third. The first one was hungry?
Mark Rockwell 10:35
No, well, I may have trend I may have screwed up and and reversed it. But under Patrick's mantra, it starts out with humble.
Steve Fretzin 10:44
Okay.
Mark Rockwell 10:46
And then smart.
Steve Fretzin 10:47
Okay, got it. Got it? Well, I think they would work well together. I mean, let me ask you just now we're out of the roleplay. A little bit. I mean, what percentage of lawyers or just people in general would fall into that space? Because I guess I'm just thinking about, you know, I do a lot of personality, or I should say, behavioral assessments. And people behave differently. And it isn't, a lot of it has to do with attitude. But at the end of the day, you've got some people that are highly extroverted, they may come across hungry. And then you've got people that are highly introverted, the intellectuals, academics, etc. And they may not come across hungry, for example, certainly smart and humble. And so how do you understand who has those three? And is that something that most attorneys have?
Mark Rockwell 11:27
Well, I don't think that you could say a majority of everybody has those qualities. That's why it's a challenge when you're trying to put together an elite team to make sure that they all three of those qualities are present. And it's it's going to be a process of passing on some individuals who may be extremely smart. And they may be extremely humble, but they're not necessarily hungry. Or vice versa, they may be possessing a couple of the other qualities, but unless and until they demonstrate consistent performance that would convince you that they possess all three, it is probably not individual that you want to have in your firm on a long term basis, or even on a short term basis. And that is a critical decision. If you're going to build a firm, are you simply trying to grow and get work done? Or are you trying to build a culture at a firm that has a vision for three years, five years, 10 years down the road?
Steve Fretzin 12:28
I mean, this is an incredibly important conversation that we're having, because the people that get hired, there's a tremendous amount of investment, whether you're working with a recruiter or not. I mean, you look at bringing someone in for a year that doesn't work out how much time energy money went into that person, what were the expectations of what their book was going to help grow the law firm if they have a book. And so I want to ask you, and I hope this isn't too off the cuff. But are there some questions that you have in your back pocket that a managing partner or someone that's involved in hiring at a firm would ask to try to identify the three points here of humble, hungry and smart?
Mark Rockwell 13:09
Well, I don't know that it comes down to just a few limited questions. Because every individual is going to be somewhat different. I would tell you this, that I think advice certainly applies to myself. I think we are too quick to hire, as much as anything, it's going to go beyond just asking questions, is really going to be allowing yourself adequate time to observe this individual, get to see them in a real life scenario, and see how they perform not only in an interview environment, but more importantly, how do they conduct themselves if they're a guest at a basketball game? If you take them to a restaurant, and the waiter screws up their order, how do they treat the waiter? In fact, one of the stories that Patrick tells, which I think is really insightful is one about a gentleman who would take candidates to a restaurant and tell the waiter ahead of time to mess up the order. He then wanted to observe how that individual would treat the waiter when the order came all messed up. So I think that's an example of how we, in our, in the process of hiring individuals want to try to limit it to a verbal interview process. That's too easy to game. What we really want to know is how does this person conduct themselves? Do they work well with other people? Are they smart in the way that they can they read a room Do they know when they are speaking correctly, or when they're saying things that may or may be off putting? And so if I were to give advice to anyone about this, I would say slow the process down, have multiple opportunities to interact with the individual in different settings, and simply see, is this a person that I think will be additive to the firm and that we'll all enjoy working with?
Steve Fretzin 15:10
Yeah, I absolutely love that response. Because I think where there are specific questions that would help to isolate those three traits, observing someone in their natural or around natural environment, whatever it might be, I mean, you're certainly going to pick up a lot of the soft skills and soft just behaviors that someone might be then be putting out there. The other thing I would add, and I've recommended this to a number of people I used to run a recruiting firm for about five years, is well, and one thing that I would say is give someone an assignment, give them something to do that allows you to see their work product or allows you to see, and again, I don't know, the legal ease in every state for that. And again, it might be something, you know, simple, like updating a bio or something, but just something to kind of just see what their work product is or how well they really know their subject. What do you think about something like that?
Mark Rockwell 15:59
Well, I think that's absolutely correct. That that, again, is going to not only allow you to judge their the quality of their work, but how do they conduct themselves, when you're, you're talking back and forth and giving feedback or asking them for clarification, or asking them to go and update or change something, the more you can get a candidate into a real life environment. Whether it is a ski outing, a shopping trip, a visit to a restaurant, anything you can do to remove them from a quote, quote, interview environment, and see them in a more realistic environment, which is the way you're going to work with them, assuming you hire them, that's going to increase your likelihood of good hires, for sure.
Steve Fretzin 16:49
Okay. And so let me ask it kind of following up on this, you were talking about, you know, one thing specifically at this moment, which is hiring the right people, which is a huge part of developing a culture and developing that dream team that every Managing Partner would like to have, what are some of the things that can cause challenge and difficulty in a law firm at achieving success and achieving sustainability and in a good culture?
Mark Rockwell 17:14
It really oftentimes hinges around process, you know, the word process is off putting to people oftentimes they think, Oh, my gosh, process that and they envision this large, six inch deep black binder with all kinds of small writing. And, and so they resist trying to standardize processes. But the reality is, you can't scale until you can achieve consistency. And you can't achieve consistency until you have some type of process. And that can be as simple as starting at the front door with how do we answer the telephone, it can be as simple as how do we onboard a new client, until those are standardized, and everyone in the firm understands this is the way we do it, you're going to have balls drop, you're going to have confusion, you're going to have dissatisfaction, and, frankly, frustration. So I would place a high emphasis on the need to go through every key process in the firm, and put it down on paper. Try to live with the 2080 rule where you're not trying to write every word of every step, but you get it volatize so that you have those 20% that will give the roadmap to this is the way we do this process.
Steve Fretzin 18:40
Gotcha. Gotcha. And so I guess this is something that I'm always interested in hearing from an expert like yourself is why are managing partners so hesitant to make cultural shifts to make process improvements to treat it like a business because it is a lot like the Wild West and I've got firms that are always looking to improve. I've got firms that never want to improve or do anything different. They're just they're just staying in the past and they're happy, you know, with where they are. Why? Why is it different than other businesses and accounting practice or a just any type of service based business?
Mark Rockwell 19:14
Well, first of all, let me tell you that the the resistance to put processes in is not restricted to law firms. I think it is just a human, a human nature to resist standardization. We all like to think that whatever is up in our head is exactly the way I'd like to do it. But the reality is, unless you have if you're going to have five people all playing music together, they'd better be playing off the same sheet. And otherwise, it's just going to be a whole bunch of different instruments making a bunch of loud noises. And that's true in the way you operate a business and a law firm in particular, if you don't have a standardized process of this is how we onboard customers or clients. This is the way we communicate with referral partners, this is the way we answer the telephone, there will be no consistency in the firm is just going to be whatever someone wants to do that day. And in order to grow the firm and have a stellar reputation, the work product coming out has to be uniform and consistent, it's really no different than if you go to a coffee shop, you don't want to have a different product every day, you want to go there and know that what you're going to get is very predictable. It's only with process and standardization that a law firm can say we turn out a consistently high quality product. And if they resist that anyone that resists that is simply defining themselves as an organization that's going to limit their growth.
Steve Fretzin 20:54
So I know in reading kind of the shownotes, before interview, you mentioned, kind of what some of the law firms need to do to be successful. And you brought up the three W's Can you expand on that?
Mark Rockwell 21:04
When it comes to you know who, what and why or where, and we actually there's probably more like five W's
Steve Fretzin 21:11
is a bunch of W's and a maybe an H in there.
Mark Rockwell 21:14
Yeah, exactly. One of the things that is really a shortcoming. And it applies to me as as well as anybody else is we tend to communicate in shorthand. And go back and look at emails that I've written, you've written you've received, unless there is real clarity around who is supposed to do it, what it is you're looking for, when it's due, and how it's to be done. If we talk in shorthand, and we don't cover all of those bases, at the end of the day, the work product is not what anyone was looking for are there are there going to be ball drops. And so one of the areas of emphasis I have with in visiting with every client is to say where we need to start is to make sure that we have clarity in our communication. And as an example, I can remember, interestingly enough that I should still remember this, I was a youngster probably 12 years old, traveling West with my grandmother, and we were making a train change in Chicago. And we she took me to the Marshall fields. And she said, Now I'll meet you back here at 11 o'clock. And I believe she pointed up at the street sign I think it is Oak Street, one of the screens that Marshall fields is on I don't recall if that's accurate or not. But I know that in an hour, I came back to what I thought was the Oak Street entrance only to find out that the store was so large that in fact, there were two Oak Street entrances because it was divided by a street down the middle. That was an indication of a lack of clarity and a lack of communication. And I just about missed my train to the west coast because I was in the wrong spot at the right time. That type of communication ball drop is very common. And so if there's one area that I attempt to work on and work on with my clients is making certain that there is very clear communication and that all of those items are specifically and repeatedly covered.
Steve Fretzin 23:27
Got a cat it. So in this has been all very insightful. And in wrapping up the conversation, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the next five to 10 years. I mean, what are the chain the biggest changes that you're going to see in the legal profession? And how do you think that lawyers are going to handle it?
Mark Rockwell 23:42
Well, boy, I'll tell you, Your guess is as good as mine, but I have to believe that things are going to change, and they're going to change pretty dramatically. And there's a lot of movement afoot for change in ownership change, you know where managing partners wouldn't necessarily need to be a lawyer. They could be perhaps potentially in an equity position. There may even be legislation that would open up the opportunity for outside firms, apps, outside investors who are not lawyers to own a firm or multiple firms. So yeah, I think that the there's gonna be some very dramatic changes in the legal profession. It's not probably gonna be unlike what we've seen in the dental profession where you have large organizations all owning multiple dental clinics. So yeah, I think that 10 years from now, we'll look back and say, Wow, this has been very transformational, all the more reason why lawyers who want to maintain their edge and be part of the success need to adopt to the concept of a law is in fact a business and that in order to be accessible, we need to think in terms of how do we get work? How do we do work? And how do we collect on it, and organize ourselves accordingly.
Steve Fretzin 25:09
And so if if there's lawyers listening to this, that think it's pretty competitive today, and some of these things come through, and technology is already a part of it, right? And speeding up the competitive process, the marketing that's happening, it's got to be 10 times what it was even 10 or 15 years ago. I mean, the amount of lawyers that are marketing and social media, etc. And then on top of that, you know, that competitiveness that might happen if they change the laws in who can run and grow, law, practice, and technology combined, it could be a whole different ballgame, completely.
Mark Rockwell 25:41
Now, yeah, I think the landscape is going to change dramatically. And to the point where I don't know that I would even be capable of predicting what it's going to look like.
Steve Fretzin 25:49
Well, really great insights here, Mark, and I appreciate you sharing them with my audience. I think there's a lot of great takeaways that people can get from hearing what you're saying whether they're a managing partner and executive on the executive committee, or if they're working in a law firm and maybe realizing that they're not humble, they're not hungry, maybe not smart, that they should be happy they have a job at all. But whatever the case might be, it's great stuff. And how do people get in touch with you if they say, you know what I want to talk with Mark about my firm, I'd like to be have some evaluation and learn what he might be able to help me with.
Mark Rockwell 26:23
Sure. Well, I appreciate that. Well, my website is coachrockwell.com, Or they're welcome to email me at mark@coachrockwell.com
Steve Fretzin 26:38
terrific. And we'll certainly have some information in the show notes as well to back up and support that. And just again, thanks, Mark, for spending some time with me and my audience. You know, this is really important for, you know, the future of the of the industry and the future of the law firms that want to be successful, to follow some of the things that you're talking about so much. Appreciate it.
Mark Rockwell 26:58
Thank you for inviting me.
Steve Fretzin 27:00
You haven't yeah finished the sentence. It's been...
Mark Rockwell 27:03
Fun.
Steve Fretzin 27:04
All right, well, I had a good time too. And just hope everybody listening, got some great takeaways and some value. And again, if this is something that, you know, isn't your topic, but maybe might be for your managing partner, that individual might want to hear this maybe for that episode to that individual. Because I think it's important to understand the way that culture and process and all this stuff can help to build a better firm a better, more sustainable future for you at the firm. If they're open minded. If they're closed minded, then it's not going to matter. And this whole thing is moved. But listen again, the idea here on this show every single time and every episode is to help you be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care of everybody and be safe be well.
Narrator 27:52
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for building a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.