In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Marc Siegel discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Assume that you’re going to start your own practice." — Marc Siegel
Connect with Marc Siegel:
Website: MSiegelLaw.com & ConsultTheNegotiator.com
Email: MSiegel@MSiegelLaw.com
Phone: 312-878-3210
LinkedIn: Mark Siegel
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Marc Siegel 0:00
I think it goes to the need to ask your clients or ask opposing counsel or ask other lawyers, you know, for referrals and for help. And that's not an easy thing for a lot of people to do, Steve. But I think if you're doing good work, people are willing to do it. But you may have to ask.
Narrator 0:24
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:47
Well, welcome, everybody to be that lawyer. I'm your host, Steve Fretzin. I am very excited to introduce a friend a very successful past client of mine, and quite frankly, the premier employment attorney in Chicago land, Mark Siegel, of Siegel and Dolan. How you doing, Mark?
Marc Siegel 1:05
I'm doing great, Steve, thanks so much for having me. And thanks for all of your help in getting me to where I am today.
Steve Fretzin 1:11
Well, listen, I always say the key to being a great coach is having a great player, and you are that great player. So I really appreciate you and what you do. And so to that point, let's let's take, you know your Reader's Digest version, and let my audience know a little bit more about your practice and what you do.
Marc Siegel 1:28
Sure, I have a unique background in labor and employment. I started at a midsize firm in Chicago representing management in labor and employment matters, handling litigation, e OC, charges, counseling, advising. And then after about seven years, I began my own practice, and I've had my own practice ever since. And the focus of my practice is representing employees and executives in terminations, discrimination, lawsuits and retaliation matters. And really helping them to get to a better place, when they come see me, there often have been let go from the job and they're looking for severance or greater severance, or they're having problems at work. And they need some sort of resolution. So I'm very fortunate to you know, represent hundreds of people each year in the employment context.
Steve Fretzin 2:27
And so there are employment attorneys that work on the defense side, plaintiff side, and then some that kind of mix it up in the middle. And you've really built a practice and run a very successful business representing specifically those individuals, many of whom have lost their jobs, having financial difficulties. Tell me about how you built that type of practice.
Marc Siegel 2:45
I think that being a management lawyer to begin with, first of all, has given me a lot of credibility with my individual clients. And, and as well as opposing counsel. And really, the referrals that I've gotten through opposing counsel have been very helpful in generating work on any average day, we might get five to seven inquiries. And so the key to this type of practice, Steve, is to talk to as many clients as you can, but then to separate the out the ones that hopefully, you can help versus the ones that you just can't help because the law is not on their side, or there may not be good levers for negotiation. And I never wanted to be a one to your Tuesday, which most plaintiff's Employment Lawyers are, I wanted to build the firm, because it gives me flexibility to continue to grow the practice, as well as to do the things I like to do, which is negotiate cases, mediate cases, arbitrate cases, bring in business. And there's a sense to that if you're a very small firm, that employers or opposing counsel on the management side might think that you don't have the firepower to take on the big cases. And I've taken many class action cases have been fortunate to settle some of them in the seven figures. And I don't think I would have be able to do that if I were just practicing by myself or with one other person.
Steve Fretzin 4:18
Right. And I know that from working with you, and just knowing you that you develop a lot of referrals and relationships with opposing counsel, even when there might be some contentiousness to the clients in the matter at hand. How do you how do you do that?
Marc Siegel 4:34
I mean, that's that's really a great question. And frankly, some of the cases that I've had where we've had oral arguments where, where cases have been extremely contentious. I've been surprised that those lawyers have in turn referred cases over to me. I think that I come from a background where I generally like people like me, and sometimes when you're in a very contentious situation, It feels like while they might not like you, or it's uncomfortable, but I think what I strive for as a lawyer, and what I've learned as a lawyer is really to get respect that you're going to take assertive, aggressive positions, but never anything, that's unreasonable. That is certainly not unethical. You can never, as a lawyer, sacrifice your own reputation for what the client sometimes wants, I have clients all the times that are asking me to, to go to the media are a go to different agencies sort of file ardc cases, sort of do all sorts of things that I'm not comfortable with. And I think that people know, on the other side, that I'm an honest broker, and it's enabled me to get a number of referrals, including, I've represented a number of family members from some of the top management lawyers. And that's, that's a really good feeling. And I think, you know, has spoken to my character.
Steve Fretzin 6:05
And I know that one thing that lawyers are looking for is when they're getting referrals from lawyers is the ability to reciprocate. But I can imagine, I know from from knowing you that it's difficult for you when you're getting, you know, 100 plus lawyers referring you, you know, the people they know, how do you, you know, reciprocate to them? Is there? Is there something that you do to try to help them with the understanding that it's tough to be able to refer that many people?
Marc Siegel 6:33
Yeah, that's another great question. There are a couple of different answers on that. One is that management lawyers tend to get a lot of calls to help employees. And when they refer over to me, that's a reflection on them. So I think the first thing is to take good care of the referrals so that they look good, and that they're satisfied, or their contact is satisfied that the person is being taken care of. The second thing is I socialize, have lunch, get together for drinks, or for coffee, with many of the people on the opposing side. And, you know, one of the things that that I do, and that I think that you preach is, you know, I asked them, how I can help them, how I can help them with their book of business, who I can introduce them to, as you knows, a lot of times it's not a direct hit when you're getting a client. But I basically say Listen, if there are people that you want to connect with at a certain firm, or that can help grow your practice, I always offered to do that. And I genuinely liked doing that. Because the lawyers that I know, I have a very high opinion of, you know, people give lawyers a hard time, but the lawyers I know tend to be well traveled, they have a lot of interests, they care about their clients, they're intelligent. And so anyway I can help really is a benefit for them and a benefit for me. One of the other things that I've done with some law firms, I have done presentations, for certain law firms, I did one for banish, I did want for frantic, and I basically met with the lawyers there and gave them the plaintiffs employment perspective on different matters. And they could just ask me questions, and I presented, how I perceive things and how I go about things. And then I think it's really a win win, because because they can get greater insight into the way that employees think and planning some climate lawyers think. And it puts me in front of in front of their lawyers, they can get continuing ed for that. So I have done that on a number of occasions. I did that for Neil Kerber, too. And I really liked doing that. That's, that's been a real highlight for me.
Steve Fretzin 8:59
And I think that helps, you know, generate, again, goodwill and improve business development, is there. Are there barriers that you found kind of getting into business development and building a practice that you had to overcome? And how did you do that?
Marc Siegel 9:13
Yeah, well, my my background is says, I'd say as I said, I started at a management firm, a great firm in Chicago, but I was working 60, 70 hours a week, and I was almost 30 years old. And I kind of believe, I know you had a special birthday that just came up, but I kind of believe that each decade, you put up with less garbage than you did have the decade before, right and I didn't see a pathway to be able to develop my own practice. When I was at that point, I was working a lot of hours. The attribution system was such that the context had to come completely outside of the firm and the firm's clients you had to develop your own. And there was a lot of overlap between the partners there and my own contacts and who knew. So I figured, in order to build a book, you've either got to have a cadre of business clients, or you have to be able to do stuff for individuals. And I always thought that there was an opening in representing individuals, I kind of like representing the underdog, and like to be able to work with individuals who are very grateful and appreciative in general of the work that I do. So I went in switching the practice, then I was able to get a lot more inquiries, and to build up my book, really through one offs and through clients and through referrals. And now, as I said, there's no shortage of people who need my help. It's just a question of, you know, what can I do for them, unfortunately, in this COVID environment, there are more people than ever that are being laid off in the shops, elimination, unemployment rates are, are incredibly high. But there are limitations to what I can do. If somebody has been laid off with 30 other people, and you know, they they want a greater package, that's obviously a harder thing to do. But I think that being in a position of representing individuals has enabled me to have my book where there is continual interest in in representation, it's just, it's just picking and choosing, you know, what cases are viable? And who I can help?
Steve Fretzin 11:29
Not Got it? And what are maybe two or three things that you have found to be really successful for growing your law practice in the last number of years? You know, clearly, you know, you've mentioned getting together for lunches or just getting together with people to network. What else are you doing it we're having doing, or last couple of years that you found to be really effective to keep the flow coming in of new new business?
Marc Siegel 11:52
Some of the things you know, it's amazing to me, really how much work comes off of the internet. One thing that I worked on with you, and your compadre Barry is to really focus on getting our website on the first page. And so if somebody types in Chicago employment lawyer, Chicago employment lawyer best, we're coming up now on the on the front page, and you help me with that. And part of that process is asking my clients for Google reviews. And we have I think, 26, five star Google reviews. And that has brought in a lot of work. And that's really, that's really a great work. Because it's more, it's more passive. It's stuff that comes in every single day. But I think it goes to the need to ask your clients or ask opposing counsel, or ask other lawyers, you know, for referrals and for help. And that's not an easy thing for a lot of people to do, Steve. But I think if you're doing good work, people are willing to do it. But you may have to ask. The other thing is that I became a mediator and an arbitrator. And one of the great things about being an arbitrator, one of the reasons I did it was not necessarily because I thought that I was going to be getting, you know, a full time arbitrator or I was going to be getting tons of work. It's It's It's more difficult to get that work because you have to be selected by both parties. But was that my name goes out constantly to different lawyers, as to who's going to be on the panel. And I thought that that greater range name recognition would be helpful to you know, people are looking you up, you just as you said in the beginning, you really want to get known as the key person in the area. And the more you can do that by getting your name out by asking for clients for, for reviews for asking for opposing counsel for referrals, the better off that you think you are. We've also started with an email newsletter, which we send out to about I think, 4000 people, I think it's a question of having your name out there at the right time, because most people in their lifetime are going to face a time where they're, something's gonna go sideways with their job. And so I want them to think of me when it happens so that I can help them.
Steve Fretzin 14:21
Yeah, and I think what I'm hearing is a combination of, you know, grassroots, you know, getting in front of people to network, while at the same time also leveraging, you know, clients for testimonials, you know, getting getting on the front page of Google if you can, and just building your brand through, you know, you know, sending out emails, so it's really, there's multiple buckets that you have working at the same time. And it all adds up to you know, how you know what's going to produce your your, you know, your best year or a good year.
Marc Siegel 14:52
Exactly. And, and you need as you said, the multiple buckets because you never know where this work is. It's gonna come from, in certain ways, it's a lot more difficult to build a practice representing individuals than it is, if you are focused on businesses, because you're dealing with one offs, you're not dealing with continual clients, or client work. And that's why your brand is it's everything when you represent individuals. So whatever you can do to to, to help with the brand is, is really helpful. I also, I created a website called consultant, negotiator, a website with different videos. Hey, where do you start negotiations? And what are the levers that you can use in negotiations, that different videos that are on YouTube, that that can also give recognition as well. The other thing is that I attend national conferences, I speak at national conferences with lawyers around the country. And that's another source is that knowing that the best plaintiff's Employment Lawyers around the country is really helpful too, because I've worked on matters with them. There's a law firm out of Boston, and they're probably the top Wage and Hour law firm, definitely in Boston, and man, the top in the country. And we work on a lot of cases with them. And I felt that, that network through a through a presentation and through a conference that I went to.
Steve Fretzin 16:28
Yeah, I mean, you've got so many so many things working at the same time. It's it's not surprising that things are going so well. Let me ask you this question. And there are a lot of attorneys that aren't doing really anything. They're just servicing other people's clients and kind of just humming along with whatever happens happens, kind of an attitude, what's going on with those with those folks? What are they missing out on?
Marc Siegel 16:50
I think they're missing out on a big part of the reality of law today. I think you've you've talked to other lawyers who've said, you know, being a great lawyer isn't enough. You know, anyone who's a lawyer and is a litigator, no matter how good a litigator, you are, there are hundreds, if not 1000s, of other good litigators there. And the problem with just doing work is it doesn't put you in control of your own life. Part of the reason I left my law firm, and I was doing very well there and enjoyed the people there is Steve was I wanted greater control over my life, I wanted to decide how many hours I work, I wanted to decide what I wanted to do on the weekend, I wanted to decide where to travel, when to go what to do. And because of the business that I've been able to bring in, and the lawyers that I've been able to hire, I have that flexibility, I have the lifestyle that enables me to focus on what I want to focus on. And to spend my personal life the way that I want to spend it. And these other lawyers are basically they're, they're giving up control to somebody else. And no matter how good you are, you're still in a vulnerable position and you're susceptible, you're set, you can be susceptible to layoff, you can be susceptible to another lawyer in the firm, not liking you. I've represented brilliant lawyers who've been let go because they tried to get a chunk of business for a client that they were servicing. And then the next thing, you know, they're persona non grata. And with the billable hour, you know, whether it's 2000, or more, a little bit less, you're facing that each and every year, you're not moving the ball forward, you're just starting at Ground Zero each and every year. And the people that are servicing lawyers are not in a position to, to have, you know, the greatest source of happiness, or the greatest source of enjoyment out of their practice, because they're always relying on somebody else, you know, it's kind of like, it's, it's, you want to have the freedom, you want the freedom to do what you want, when you want to, and hopefully add value in the mix.
Steve Fretzin 19:13
And without a book of business, you're you can't, yeah, and so again, it's it's interesting to me being in the position as a as a lawyer coach, where I interact with, you know, attorneys in every part of, you know, every different area of their career starting to finishing this Pratt, you know, every practice area, and every book size, you know, I've got guys at 6 million, I've got guys, you know, it 200,000 and it's just amazing to me, the limited number of attorneys that sort of get it the way you do and that I think, maybe 10 or 20%, too, and I thought, you know that the recession in 2008 and that this pandemic would change things. And I'm just concerned that it's not and I'm not really sure why but it's if it's just fear or or I don't know if you have a have a feeling about that.
Marc Siegel 19:57
I think that there's that. There's a A natural tendency on people's parts just to stay the course no change is very difficult. Marketing is, is overwhelming to a lot of people, you know I look at it is a good way to meet, you know, different people to get to know about them. But a lot of people are either introverted, or they have other they're focused on their work instead. And I think that there's a tendency for a lot of lawyers to say, Well, this is my lot. And, you know, I'm, I'm only five at a time, but it's never going to get better than five at a time. And really, the only way it's going to get better is if they create their own book. And, you know, one of the things you know, that you've done very impressively throughout COVID, is you're constantly on email on LinkedIn, talking about what opportunities are there to market, what opportunities are there in this environment, you know, frankly, with everyone at home, there's a certain degree that it's easier to market to get people, you know, on the phone, or to do zoom calls. And, and people have to see marketing as as an opportunity to, to really better their life. But I don't understand why lawyers would want to be subjected to someone else's control, if they don't have to be, you know, the advice that I give, that I got from a lawyer. And it's probably one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given Steve was he said, You know, I treat every day or every matter, or my career as if I would go across the street and start my own firm. And that actually was one of the things that got me starting thinking about my own firm, because really, I was a was a firm guy was a company guy was doing very well, I would have never thought that seven years out, I would have started my own firm. But I think that that's one of the main pieces of advice I would give to any lawyer is assume that you're going to start your own practice, frankly, most lawyers dream about starting their own practice, but never do. And that's okay. It's okay to work at it. firms are many great firms are many good reasons to work at firms. There's collegiality, there's depths of knowledge. But if you have that attitude of I'm going to practice as if I'm going to start my own firm, you have a different level of ownership on your matters. And I'll give you an example. When I was when I was an associate at my firm, one of the lawyers said, Why don't you call this client there, they're in arrears on on payment. And I felt a little resentful at the time because I said, you know, I'm an associate, I'm not the billing partner, why do I have to do this. And then when I viewed it in a different light, I said, You know what, I, I'm going to have to do this, if I start my own practice, one day, I'm going to have to deal with people who aren't paying, and I'm gonna have to call them and I'm gonna have to deal with it. And it really kind of changed my view. So I think every lawyer out there should say, What do I need to know? What do I need to do? What position do I need to be in in case I either choose to start my own practice, or I'm in a position where I have to choose my own practice, which is what's happening to more and more people these days, Steve, his lawyers are being there, a lot of jobs are being eliminated. And not many firms are hiring. So they may have to start their own practice. But shouldn't they have thought about that before? And Shouldn't they have given it credence so that they're in a better position? You know, if the bottom does fall out?
Steve Fretzin 24:13
Well, and I think, too, that there's a misunderstanding about what it means to market or what it means to grow your book of business. I think the rainmakers have the past of days past, you know, sort of, oh, that guy's a natural Rainmaker or she really, you know, she really, you know, knows what, you know, knows how to, you know, make it make it rain. And the reality is, and you know, this and my clients know this, that it's a learned skill. You know, I work with some of the most introverted uncomfortable attorneys, you know, you'd ever meet, and I work with some outrageous, you know, very chatty salesy types of people that I've got to rein in and in the thing that they all have in common is they're just learning a skill and now is sort of the opportune time to do it. Especially if you're out They're down. I mean, whether it's time management, whether it's learning how to use LinkedIn better than in the past, how to get your brand build through social media or through online, you know, Google reviews, there's no better time than now. And so I think I think that's, that's got to shift. And so we'll see if it takes another recession, to get people off their rears. But you know, everything that you've talked about today is right in line with the mindset that I think lawyers have to have, especially wrapping up with, you know, treat your business, like it's your business, you know, that which it is.
Marc Siegel 25:34
The other thing that you helped me when we have worked together, is, marketing isn't some sort of mystical animal, it's, it's not something that can't be taught or learned, or, or improved upon. But I think I think, you know, one of the things when we work together that kind of help is when you have meetings, you know, to make the most out of that meeting that you can, and you can have lunch with lawyers five days a week, but are you making the best use out of that, in terms of marketing? Not every discussion is to be a marketing discussion. And obviously, that may just be a small part of the lunch. But I think one of the things that you focus on and help your clients with is how do I make the most out of that hour? What questions do I ask what interests Do I have to make that meeting more than just a social gathering? And, and that's where I think a lot of your clients need help, is turning that corner to, you know, asking for referrals or offering up referrals or offering up if that's not natural to a lot of people. And that's why people need a coach like you to make the most out of the marketing hours that you have. Otherwise, as you've analogize it, it's kind of like, you know, going on a trip or you kind of missed the train to to your cheered trip, you're not making the most out of out of the time that you're there. So I think that that that's important as well.
Steve Fretzin 27:18
Yeah, I appreciate that mark. And again, you know, having good players helps helps a coach to get you know, the partnership, you know, to where it needs to go. So I just want to thank you for being on the show. I really can't tell you how much it means to me to have you on the show and working through this and giving your advice to my to my audience. How do people get in touch with you because you're a great a great resource for the the legal community.
Marc Siegel 27:42
My phone number is 312-878-3210 My email is MSEGL at MSI EG law calm, and like you I'm on email from regularly, more hours per day than and I would care to admit, but anybody is welcome to call me I actually enjoy, as I said, talking to other lawyers talking about these issues, helping people grow practices and encouraging people to strike out on their own whenever possible, or, you know, to maximize their time in a firm so as again, have greater control over their life and to be as happy as possible. Well, I
Steve Fretzin 28:29
appreciate your taking some time for me and for my audience. Hey everybody, listen. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's show that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, take care and be safe.
Narrator 28:49
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frets and.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.