In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Larry Kaufman discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"It’s not the people you know, it’s who they know." — Larry Kaufman
Connect with Larry Kaufman:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/larrykaufmanlinkedinspeaker
Book: The NCG Factor - amazon.com/NCG-Factor-Life-Changing-Relationships-Retirement/dp/173306351X
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Larry Kaufman 0:00
But you need that good foundation network. But it's not the 500. You know, it's who they know. So by connecting to me, I have almost 30,000 connections on LinkedIn. By connecting with me you have access to people that I know so i can be an access point to help out those of your offering, and saying I'd like to help you out.
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin. We'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:48
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I'm Steve Fretzin and hope everybody's having a great day. In case you haven't heard the news, business development is important for lawyers. It's something that they need to focus on. tongue in cheek, I guess. And I have one of the top business development networking LinkedIn gurus, author, speaker, LinkedIn master Larry Kaufman, how's it going, Larry?
Larry Kaufman 1:12
Fantastic. Steve, how are you doing?
Steve Fretzin 1:15
You know, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I can't complain too much. I'm healthy. And my family's doing well, and businesses is cranking. I guess lawyers still need some structure around business development. So I guess there's a reason for me to exist in that in that space.
Larry Kaufman 1:29
That's great.
Steve Fretzin 1:30
Yeah. How about yourself?
Larry Kaufman 1:31
I'm doing wonderful. I have no complaints. Yes, business is good. Life is good. And I'm speaking with you today can't get better.
Steve Fretzin 1:39
No, I don't think there's anything better than speaking to me. So you We both have that in common. Haha. Anyway. So listen, do my audience a little favor and give a little background because you've got such an amazing history. And I think they should kind of hear where you know where that's all leading to today.
Larry Kaufman 1:57
Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm I just tell people first and foremost that I'm a giver and a connector. I just I live my life to help other people, and even attorneys. So Oh, wow. Yeah, I know, it sounds crazy.
Steve Fretzin 2:11
Who would want to do that?
Larry Kaufman 2:13
I can't believe it. No, you know what, I definitely started my career in sales out of college, with an original thought process that would be a doctor than an accountant, and just want to get out of college and found a career in sales, which led into leadership roles, and then spawned into being a LinkedIn speaker. And I would say, about 15 years ago, or so I got into the accounting world, you know, public accounting, probably even further back. But I really found that when I was in public accounting, is where I found, you know, the trusted advisor approach to building relationships. And so now, to where I'm at today, though, I work for a professional services firm, that's part of a $22 billion company, part of manpower group, I run a region oversee and own a p&l, I've got a team of about 50, folks running sales and operations for Jefferson wells. And so we're more focused in the accounting, finance, tax and risk advisory area. But, you know, I've definitely worked with attorneys in my present day to past and understand the importance of building relationships and networking
Steve Fretzin 3:35
And sharing for a moment, just a little bit more about the book you wrote, too, because that's, that's a really interesting story as well.
Larry Kaufman 3:40
I authored a book called The NCG factor. So and isn't networking c isn't connecting, GE isn't giving. It's a formula for building life changing relationships, from college through retirement. And actually, you talked about LinkedIn. I've been an international speaker about LinkedIn for a while starting this year now in 2021, 13 years, and incorporated a chapter about LinkedIn in the book. And, you know, really, the book is about, you know, really building relationships. And I always felt that it'd be good to do a book about networking to help the college kids. And then I realized that people like ourselves need to be networking, some mid career, all the way to retirement, and it was actually an attorney. That got me on that thought process of being a connector. So I was a late bloomer, my 30 plus years was an attorney. And I give a shout out to Brian Sugar. Thank you. Very excited. I thought it would be like an applause machine or something.
Steve Fretzin 4:46
But it was just crickets unfortunately for Brian
Larry Kaufman 4:49
Unfortunately. Yeah. So Brian Sugar introduced me to being a connector as an attorney, and it was a friend of mine, Brenda Dunn Kenny that introduced me to Brian. But Brian really proved to be an interesting guy that was, you know, connector and introducing at least two people, to someone that he meets every time you meet someone to new people. And that was interesting, I evolved that. And you know, I wrote a book to kind of take you through the process, the best practices of growing building relationships, how and why to recognize people who are takers, and that givers, and that you can convert a taker, and so much more. So the book really was to help other people. And I think we just get lost in our roles. And we don't think about other people, we think about our jobs and our families. But there's much more to life than just those people in our jobs.
Steve Fretzin 5:51
Yeah. And that's not to do dueling books with you. But I also wrote a book on networking. And in the first dental sentence, I claim that no one's wasted more time networking than I have, because I think when I started out, I was just clueless. And I just literally had to figure it out all myself, but very similar to you, Larry, I broke it into three categories I had the givers, the takers, and the apparent givers. And so obviously, the givers are the best, right? Anyone that that has the mindset like you do, and I do where we just try to be connectors and help people. And then the takers are the ones you know, watch out, this person is just out to sell you or this person is just out to push cards in your face and take. And the one that's in the middle, though, and maybe you've got some some insight on this is the tricky one. Because there's a lot of people that are potential givers, but they may not have the organization, the time management or the know how to be an effective giver. So I call them a parent givers, because they say the right things, but sometimes executions, not their thing. What do you what do you think about that?
Larry Kaufman 6:55
Well, I talked about an apparent giver, who was an attorney still isn't attorney and prominent attorney that I like and respect I won't share this person's name. But I, I agree with you. Right, some are, it's black and white, right? You know who they are. And then some, I think some you have to show them the way. And I'm thankful for LinkedIn, because with this attorney, LinkedIn helped me to show that attorney the way to be that they give her connector. And so I'll share a brief story which will will kind of align with our thought process on this. So this attorney was really nice attorney delivered nicely to the referrals, I said, to his way, and they became clients and, and those people I sent to him, were praising the work he did. So I was like, okay, but I was always wondering, like, when's it coming back? But I'm a giver. I don't expect him return. But you know, it never hurts.
Steve Fretzin 8:00
Right? It helps
Larry Kaufman 8:01
Don't mind it. But it wasn't happening. So I was like, You know what, maybe I've got to show him the width. So we got together for a lunch that I prompted. And what I did was I did some research on his network and LinkedIn. And I picked out 10 people that were perfect targets of mine when I was in public accounting. And we sat down, you know, had a nice, nice opening to our lunch because I was talking about how great he is. And all the great referrals I sent his way would you think and he said they were wonderful. And I said, Boy, you have a wonderful LinkedIn profile and a great network. And I was looking at people that you know, and they look pretty interesting. Can I ask you about some of those people? So I asked him about the 10. And I said, You know those 10 people said, Yeah, I know them really well. I said, you know, if I crafted an introduction that you could send on my behalf, would you be able to introduce me to those people? And he said, Yeah, he introduced me to all 10 within, I'd say within 72 hours, but I'll say within the first week, after our lunch, one of those actually get to bid on their business for my accounting firm. didn't win it. But that same person, that CFO introduced me to someone he knew. And that person became a client, to where my accounting firm actually took them all the way years later to point of sale. So what I will say is, I showed him the way by looking at his network. He just wasn't one that was willing to open up and say, Here's people you need to talk to. But when I asked him he was fine with doing it. So I think maybe that aligns with your apparent taker. That don't assume now if I asked them for that same exercise and said, I don't know anyone I can introduce you. Then we kind of know where he stands and some people are that way. Steve, do you
Steve Fretzin 10:00
Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's exactly it. And so the best networkers I think might be the best coaches, the ones that are able to walk people through various doors to identify those. Now, obviously LinkedIn shortcuts that because if you can identify direct people, and I have a very large network right now, probably 15% of my total network, and I've reasons for that. But that's a conversation for another time, that, you know, they need to come to me with 10 or 15 names to get three that that I know well enough to make an inroad for them, people usually email me and say, Hey, do you know this guy? I think you've even asked me that. I'm like, I don't know that person at all. You know, we're just connected, because, you know, I connect with a lot of people to get my brand out there. But I think that we need to coach people and give them the right language, the right instruction, so that the connections become a reality, versus, you know, dream. So I think you're, I think you're spot on with that. And that story illustrates it perfectly, that we don't just have to be good networkers, we have to be good coaches, and we have to be able to help people help us.
Larry Kaufman 11:05
Well, and I would agree with that. I think sometimes people make introductions or connections, and they may not be a value, right? They may not be the people you really want to know. And so when people tell me, like a lot of attorneys that I've met with, and I've presented to probably 30 law firms, when the attorney or anyone says, you know, there I like companies are 20 million to 500 million, and I like to work with, you know, the CEO or the CFO, or if there is counsel. So I want to Okay, that doesn't narrow it down. But I think people work better when you go, Hey, do you know Steve frettin? Oh, yeah. Do you want to meet Steve? Let me introduce you. So yeah, you know, what you may say, Here's 10 people on one note, you know, one of the 10? Well, that's, it's still much warmer than an introduction. So you really don't want to know.
Steve Fretzin 11:59
But But Larry, I think also, when we first started teaching LinkedIn, you know, 10 plus years ago, the idea that I would show up to a networking meeting with a list of names was sort of insulting. And I think I felt that same way to like, Who is this person in our first meeting to know, and I don't think that maybe the first meeting is the most appropriate way to do it. But with clients and with with people that, you know, well, like you and I, and stuff like that, it really helps. It helps to now and I think it's appreciated that you're coming to me with a list of names, because it's actually easier than me having to are you having to come up and come up with names, and just created out of thin air. So it's actually streamline the networking process, if you're able to use a tool like LinkedIn did to develop to develop a list and even use the advanced features to make it even easier, because, you know, 1000s and 10s of 1000s of people, I don't have time to go through that list, I need to do, right, a quick search to try to figure out the lawyers that you know, which are going to make the most sense.
Larry Kaufman 12:58
Well, I agree with you, I would never ask someone new. Hey, you know, here's some people I was researching. We connect on LinkedIn right before. And here's 10. People, I want to know I'd never do that. But I think it's more so the end of that first name is so new, we say, Hey, Steve, there's so you want to know, my network, please let me know. Or, you know, that'd be great. And so there's there should be encouragement, he searched my network, or if there's a specific company or person, I think if we leave it too vague, that's where we falter. But you're right, with clients, it's so much easier. You work with a lot of law firms. And if you can say, Well, look, you know, Tom or Mary, I see, you know, these partners that these law firms, oh, they're my former colleagues or I went to law school with them. That's huge. Versus Yeah, like a law firm with at least 20 partners or more? Well, you know, that's too vague. So you got to help guide people, but I agree, it's much better to ask what those you have a relationship with,
Steve Fretzin 14:01
you know, the other thing that I think you do very well is targeting, and I think that's something in networking that that everyone needs to continue to work on and targeting is is understanding who is the best connection for you and how you communicate that to someone so again, you know, saying 10 million to $300 million company, okay, I mean, that's like, you know, blow my mind out like I know, you know, a lot of people in that space are a lot of connectors in those spaces. But like to come up with a name is challenging. How do you help someone sort of decipher that down to the right people for you with the right people for them?
Larry Kaufman 14:44
Well, I think part of it is sometimes I'll actually show them through LinkedIn how to do a search of my network because it keeps changing and in there for this is recorded, LinkedIn will become obsolete again. People again, how to do That search and filter, but I think some of this is through, you know, a cranes or some other publication. And I saw company, I saw this company, this is right industry, you know, with this company, I think you've got to help people to do the research, whether it's through filtering the networks, you know what? I just like people in, you know, General Counsel related roles. Okay, let me show you that search. You could do it on LinkedIn, you can find people, you know, do a Google search. But you got to help people to do the right research. Hey, I like a certain industry. And so if they're too vague, where does it go? Yeah, I'll think of something, you know, you hear that all the time, I'll think of someone when Yeah, it come across, and you're sending your way, which means it will never come your way. Right until piaffe, be more specific, it's never going to happen. So you have to take the time to do the research. And look, I know a lot of law firms sit down with their marketing teams. And they figure out their targets, they got to, they've got to know where they want to go. And the companies that they want to work with, and the types of people they want to network with.
Steve Fretzin 16:16
Yeah, the last one that you hit on is the one I was hoping you would say, because I think it's like, if I'm meeting you, for the first time, I'm not gonna introduce you to my top client, I'm not gonna provide a lead for you in one meeting, that's gonna be you know, windfall for you, it's just, I don't know you well enough in that first meeting, or after that first meeting to do that. So usually, the thing that I try to do is either invite someone to an event where I know people that I can bring them into that loop, or try to connect them with someone who's a referral partner for them. And I think that's the, the area that people need to really figure out who are the best connectors for them. And if they can, verbalize that to their partner, their networking partner, that makes a huge difference. So for example, since I work with lawyers, you're a great resource, because you know, tons of lawyers or if someone that's in, you know, malpractice insurance, or someone that's in E discovery, like there are other professionals that focus on the legal industry as well, that those are the connections I'm looking for outside of a direct, you know, prospect referral. So how do you how do you teach that? Or how do you share that with people to get the contacts that are going to be suitable for you?
Larry Kaufman 17:30
Well, that's great. I mean, look, there's a lot of sole proprietor attorneys, I've worked with a lot of attorneys. And you're right, I put them with other attorneys, right, if they're a sole practitioner, you know, sole proprietor working on their own or just a small boutique, they broke off of a day arm, it's okay, what do you do? And what are what don't you do right now?
Steve Fretzin 17:50
What's missing?
Larry Kaufman 17:51
And how does that look for you? Do you have a lot of relationships? So in that case, I could I can help them bring that down to a level to where I'd go, Well, you know, what, I do know someone whose IP, or I do know, someone that does malpractice, you know? And so let me introduce you to Tom or Mary over here. And so sometimes it's kind of talking with them to help them understand. What does that potential referral network look like? Sometimes they haven't thought about, but they're like, you know what, you're right. I don't do this, it'd be nice to know. So well, if you know, someone now that does that you don't conflict with each other, you can cross refer. And so sometimes I think it comes down to Steve, just having that dialogue. Can them think about their business, and some are cut that way. And so we like you said, we have to be the coaches. Thankfully, there's people like you out there that do this on a full time basis. I am a connector. And so when I meet with people, I can cut through that because I presented the 30 firms that worked in public. And I know who to connect people to but I, I test them like, Well, tell me who you want to know. I don't know, just general counsel. I know, I know, people who are in GC roles in corporate America, but they got to point them out to me. I'm just not going to Yeah, dole them out. And you got to tell me why. So I think there's there's the coaching as needed, thankfully, if people like you to do some of that, for them and with them.
Steve Fretzin 19:30
Yeah, I appreciate that. And, again, I think you know, that the good news is that, you know, people don't have to hire me to get, you know, this kind of information. I mean, between your book, my book, you know, this podcast and other resources that are out there, but I think I think to cut to the chase, that lawyers who want to, for example, you know, leverage strategic partners, think about the practice area that you're in, and then just write down three of the top professions that typically come across the kinds of clients that you want to come across or that haven't have a need for what you do. So for example, if I'm a family attorney, I know that that the easiest way to get referrals might be an estate planning attorney might be a wealth advisor or might be a CPA, because they're the ones that are going to run across divorces more often or frequent than someone that maybe does personal injury or someone that does, you know, litigation, you know, defense, it's just, there are particular types of people, industries, professions that are going to be more likely, it's not that someone can refer you from somewhere else. But, you know, where are you? How are you targeting people that are more likely, or even if it's a wealth advisor, their Wealth Advisors that do very entry level wealth advisory, and there are Wealth Advisors that do super high end. And if you're a super high end, divorce attorney charging, you know, premium fees or rates, you're going to want to connect with people that are dealing with the wealthy. So I mean, just it's just it's it's common sense, but it's something that I don't think lawyers are really thinking about writing it down and actually focusing,
Larry Kaufman 21:05
No, I agree with you. But I would also say, Don't reinvent the wheel. So you're an attorney, and maybe a larger firm, who are the rainmakers who really just, they do really well, if you sat down with those rainmakers to find out how they're doing it, how they've done it, and, you know, learn from the people who do well. And then if you're an up and comer, I've given some advice to some of the up and comers that want to be the rainmakers, right? And they're, like, Oh, god, they're trying to connect with partners at accounting firms is their, you know, referral partners and people they should know, well, those partners know, their partners who are rainmakers. So what I'll do is I would say, Well, why don't you ask that Rainmaker for some of the partners they work with, test those partners who are the up and comers that are trying to do what you're doing at their accounting firm. And so you connect with the people, you're both trying to get to the same place. And you're at the same point in your career. So something to think about for those that are up and comers to
Steve Fretzin 22:11
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And the other thing that I wanted to just hit on as we kind of wrap up our 30 minutes, which by the way, just absolutely flew is lawyers, especially ones without a big network lawyers that are looking to get started in networking, or that are looking to get more involved in networking, say the following to me, I'd love to hear your response to this. I'd love to be able to be a giver. I don't know what to give, I don't have a big client base I you know, I'm doing other people's work, how do I network and be effective and give when I don't really have the clients that someone might be looking for?
Larry Kaufman 22:48
So here's what I'll say. I think there's an important phrase five words, everyone should say it's in my book. So you have to ask how can I help you, with everyone you meet with I mean, it's really important and stand behind. But you're right, if you feel you don't have the network. So let's, let's say an attorney on LinkedIn, by the way, the average user on LinkedIn is 400 connections, everyone should strive for 500 or more, because it hides behind that 500 plus on your profile, but you need that good foundation network. But it's not the 500. You know, it's who they know. So by connecting to me, I have almost 30,000 connections on LinkedIn. By connecting with me, you have access to the people that I know. So I can be an access point, to help out those that you're offering. And saying, I'd like to help you out. Don't assume because you have 100 or 200, you actually have much more, because of who all those folks know, if you have 50 great clients, they know a lot of great people. So I think you have to think outside that first layer that you actually do have the ability, you never know when someone's going to ask, but what I would say you need to connect to connectors, not just takers. And so if you connect with Steve frets and, and Larry Kaufman and some of the other connectors out there, you're gonna have the ability to help other people.
Steve Fretzin 24:16
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I actually put together a list, I think I have this in my book. But the thing that's interesting is that you don't have to be a giver of business to be a giver. There's a lot of things out there that you can provide that value, right. So looking through someone's LinkedIn is absolutely top of the list. And but again, who were the strategic partners solera you're not introducing me to a lawyer. But you're introducing me to a friend of yours who also works with lawyers who has a big network of lawyers, incredibly valuable for me to have a potential new strategic partner like that, inviting people to come to events so I run a month so in addition to being a group leader at a group called pro visors here in the North Shore, Chicago pago where I can bring in people to kind of check out our groups and then everything else and introduce them to a bunch of professionals. I also run a monthly lawyers roundtable with a bunch of my strategic partners. And I can bring people into that as a value add, and everyone that's come has said the same thing. Wow, what a great group, it was. So efficiently run. And in an hour, we knock out, you know, a ton of networking. And people actually proactively try to make connections for each other and an hour. And maybe it's inviting a GC to speak or to be interviewed or sit on a panel. So I think we have to look outside the box sometimes to try to figure out ways to connect and help people solve personal and business challenges, things like that advice. So there's a whole list of things that you can do. So I just don't want you to stop networking or feel that you're your sideline, because you don't have your own stable clients to give to people. I think that'll come. But there's other things that you can do to add value as well. Anything you'd add to that list?
Larry Kaufman 26:02
Well, I would say yes, you can give up your knowledge, I do a lot of coaching. Yep. LinkedIn or other advice I've seen so much I've done so much. And sometimes just talking with someone's child is really powerful and meaningful to a parent that you want to help their child. Or maybe you just maybe your child aligns with someone else's, you know, child and what they're trying to focus on in their their future career. So you know, sometimes your knowledge is really powerful, as a giving option to people that, you know, may have a need your right may not be your network. So I definitely agree with you.
Steve Fretzin 26:39
Yeah, I hope I hope everyone listening is is I don't know about taking notes or anything like that, but that you're really focused on this conversation. Because Larry and I have been doing networking, teaching, networking, coaching, networking, LinkedIn for many, many years. And I think you might want to, you know, consider picking up his book or, or grabbing a copy of mine, not not to make a sale on on a $16 book, or whatever. But I don't know what you're charging. But on Amazon, I think mine's out 15 or 16 bucks. But this is the kind of information that can cut back on how much wasted time energy hours billable hours, quite frankly, that you're spending on networking, and effectively when there are processes that Larry and I have developed, that are quite frankly, cutting to the chase. And and I don't think doing anything and effectively is going to be a good way to, you know, to run your life or your time. So, Larry, wrapping things up, you know, what would you like to promote? Or how do people get in touch with you if they want to, you know, suck more knowledge out of you.
Larry Kaufman 27:36
Thank you, Steve. Yes, so you could definitely find me on LinkedIn. So look for Larry Kaufman, in Chicago. My name is in all caps and Jefferson wells, I would go to Amazon and pick up the NCG factor and networking c connecting G giving out there was Steve Fretzin as well. So I say two books that would be powerful for your book, a collection that you have. So those are the best ways to find me and reach me.
Steve Fretzin 28:10
Yeah. And I think you're just terrific. And you've been just a great advocate and friend and networker for me in the last number of years. So I want to thank you and thanks, thanks for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge with my with my audience.
Larry Kaufman 28:21
Thank you for your relationship and all that you do. I appreciate it, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 28:26
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And listen, everybody. Again, great, great content for you to continue to grow your law practice and again, be that lawyer somebody who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well.
Narrator 28:45
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frets and.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.