In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ken Levinson discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Don't worry about losing a case. Think about all the other cases you'll get by marketing to your strengths." — Ken Levinson
Connect with Ken Levinson:
Website: LevinsonStefani.com
Email: Ken@LevinsonStefani.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kenlevinsonatty
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Ken Levinson 0:00
Let's just let the world know look at the here's what we do. Here's our sweet spot. If you want someone else who is outside of our area that we feel like we are going to concentrate in, we're good at what refer you to someone else. And what happened by doing that was we got more cases that we're up our alley if you will. And we got more and more familiar with how to heal the intricacies of those cases, and it's really worked well.
Narrator 0:33
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:56
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. In your lovely host, I'm lovely feeling lovely today, I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because we finally getting some good weather here in Chicago. And listen, all is good. If you've got your health, and you've got some business coming in, and you're continuing to think about the future and growth, I think, you know, things are looking pretty bright. Speaking of that, I've got a really great guest today, in addition to being a friend, he's also someone who's just really a nice guy and can prove that if you're a nice guy in law, you can still make it big and, and have a great career. So I want to introduce Ken Levinson, who's with Levinson and Stefani Injury Lawyers, and he's gonna give us a great chat today. So how's it going, Ken?
Ken Levinson 1:38
Great. Thanks so much for having me, Steve. I sure appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin 1:40
Yeah, it's my pleasure. And do me a favor, just give a little background on yourself your law practice and you know, sort of how you came to be?
Ken Levinson 1:49
Just that little question, right?
Steve Fretzin 1:51
That's it doesn't keep it to 30 seconds. Now, I'm just kidding.
Ken Levinson 1:55
I'm an injury trial lawyer here in Chicago, we're a small boutique law firm, we handle significant or catastrophic injury and death cases involving trucking auto crash cases, we have a national presence, we try to speak and publish and write on our expertise, if you will, and we're just thrilled to be in Chicago helping other lawyers and our clients.
Steve Fretzin 2:21
Yeah, that's great. That's great. And again, I I've known you for a number of years and respect, you know, your networking acumen, as well as your as well as your success in being a lawyer and the way people talk about you in the community, you know, top notch. So let's get into the weeds a little bit and just jump right in here. So the first question I would like to ask you really is around, you know, your own personal injury. So, you know, we go on TV, and we see a lot of stuff going on TV, billboards, you know, I got to Wisconsin, it's one call, that's all and the whole thing. So what's your, your kind of your mindset about, you know, advertising and specialization and, and, you know, kind of how, what road Did you take and why?
Ken Levinson 3:01
Well, first of all, all the marketing and business development success I've had is really based on all the mistakes I've made. So I've been doing this a long time. And I've experimented tried a lot of different methods and means to develop our business. And I always knew even when I was a young lawyer, that it was important.
Steve Fretzin 3:21
Before you go any further, I mean, give me three mistakes, three things that you did and try that just did not work. It did not like it, it wasn't wasn't good for you.
Ken Levinson 3:28
Oh, I probably have 30. But let me give you three, three jobs. When I went to a bar association function, and mentors would say, hey, go to the Chicago bar, go to the, you know, la state bar, and I go in, and I would leave, and I get like 40 or 50 business cards, and I thought I won and I realized that's not the it's not about getting business cards and numbers. It's, it's about building trust based, meaningful relationships where you could be held to the other lawyer. And we also have worked with other attorneys. biggest mistake, like massive, trying to meet everybody. And that might work for some people. But for me, if I can go to a bar association function, and develop a relationship with one or two lawyers who I can help and build a friendship and professional behind. I went, it's not a numbers.
Steve Fretzin 4:25
Right. So it's quality over quantity?
Ken Levinson 4:28
Absolutely. Absolutely. And the other things, you can't be all things to everybody you alluded to driving up to Wisconsin and seeing billboards, and maybe you watch TV and CNN and on YouTube and ad pops up. At least for us. We don't try to be injury lawyer for everybody. We know what we're going to have we know we've had success doing and when we focus on we focus on the bigger truck crash cases and that's our bread and butter. That's what we're known for. We write on it. We help train others trawlers in town on that. We are the first to admit, if you have a complex private liability or construction site injury, we might not work not the best for you, I can refer you to someone who would be perfect to help you and your family.
Steve Fretzin 5:17
And this might end up being like the main question answer focus of the show today, because I think one of the greatest questions that lawyers have is general versus specialization, and they keep hearing specialization. But that means different things to different people how specialized that could be industry, that could be a particular type in your situation type of accident, how big of acts of a big of an accident? Is it? You know, can I do every type of injury? Or should I specifically focus on one type of injury, or one type of thing and, you know, be known to everybody for one thing, or be known to a few by a million things? So that's, that's a question that every attorney is asking, no matter if they're a litigator at a big firm, whether they're a solo doing estate planning, specialization, and how specialized so how do you let tell that story about how you went from from a you deciding to be a specific type of attorney in personal injury? And then how did it end up where you're the guy for big truck injury?
Ken Levinson 6:17
Great question, Steve. So for us, I use the background for personal injury, it's a concentration within a concentration, if you will. So if you look at most personal injury, law, law firm websites, they list every known injury to man and woman, dog bite, product liability, medical negligence. And my opinion is, prospective clients and lawyers are gonna refer you a case, they want someone who's going to be the best for that case. And for me, we just felt like we couldn't be the best lawyers to help injured workers injured folks. For every type of case, what we found is we had success in trucking and bigger auto crash cases, we thought we're good at we enjoyed it, we got pleasure from really making sure that our clients are represented the best way and really taking care of to the highest level possible. And we just felt, frankly, we couldn't do that. Knowing every type of personal injury case.
Steve Fretzin 7:26
So let me ask you, was it a situation where you had truck accident or big auto cases? Five or 10 or 20 years? Was there some number some type of amount of business that you saw in those areas that exceeded the other business? Or was there some tipping point where you, you weren't always that guy, you weren't always, you know, the specialist that you are today? So how did that come to be? What was the tipping point? And how do lawyers know what their tipping point should be? Or how to focus like you did?
Ken Levinson 7:57
One of the best questions a prospective client asked me was, and I was in competition, and, you know, it happens every day, a family's going to hire me or another firm down the street. And the best question they asked was, if you were us, what would you ask you? Hmm. I thought, That's fast. That's great. They just did the old switcheroo on you there. And I thought that was a wonderful, insightful, very smart family. And I said, Well, one would be, am I the best lawyer to handle your type of situation? Because people come to us with problems, someone's been killed the breadwinner, someone's been hurt permanently? Are we the best for them. And in reviewing some cases, I realize we're not really equipped to be the perfect lawyer if you if there's such a thing for this particular client. And then we realize, let's just let the world know looked at the here's what we do. Here's our sweet spot. If you want someone else who is outside of our area that we feel like we are going to concentrate in, we're good at what refer you to someone else. And what happened by doing that was we've got more cases that were up our alley, if you will. And we got more and more familiar with how to handle the intricacies of those cases. And it's really worked well. And I think what happens is, most lawyers are paranoid. If I market a certain area of law, whether your family lawyer and examiner only represent Mac only represent women. What if a great case comes and I'm only representing women and a man wants to hire me? We're so paranoid and nervous that we'll lose a case. I would question that and respectfully have folks and lawyers. Think about the alternative which is don't worry about losing a case. Think about all the other cases you'll get by marketing to your strengths.
Steve Fretzin 10:02
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. And I think that, you know, there's people that may, you know, decide to go a certain direction, and there's people that are going to, you know, follow the money or follow what they enjoy or follow, you know what, what the future holds, right. So, you know, personal injury for auto might be going down because of self driving cars in the next 10 or 20 years. So you may have to look at the future of trucking and cars as a part of deciding something, or, you know, for better for worse, there might be more more personal injury might be less. I don't know the answer to that. But, you know, I know, for me, I, you know, I never worked with attorneys prior to, you know, let's say 2007, 2008. And I didn't say, Oh, I think there's a market here, I'm going to get, you know, kick everyone to the curb, and just start talking to attorneys and hope that it works out. No, I dipped my toe in it, I spent some time in it, I realized how well aligned I was with that community, in what I was kind of, you know, teaching and and it took over. And that's how I decided to push my chips in and focus on the legal market and take it even further. I'm not working with law firms. Okay, so I used to work with law firms. I'm no longer working with law firms. I'd rather work with individual Attorneys at Law Firms, than have to go through the rigmarole of dealing with law firms and all the people involved in everything else. If they want to refer me people, that's fine. So that takes away now I'm not competing with other lawyer coaches who do work with law firms. In fact, I can now refer them and they could possibly refer me. So there's pros and cons. But I think there's a lot more pros than cons, if you can figure out where the market is, and then actually have some experience working in it and seeing that success.
Ken Levinson 11:45
That's right. That's right. So you made a conscious decision that, hey, I'm not going to work with law firms. And you might, in theory, give up some business, but you felt the best round for you. And it's a disciplined decision, well thought out that you test. And I think that's one of the keys. So another mistake I made was sort of random acts of marketing, if do well, and not really testing and looking at the data. It's like that Moneyball book that Michael Lewis wrote, I mean, the numbers of the numbers, you might intuitively think, Hey, I go to lunch with this one solo practitioner once a week or once a month. And that's a great referring source and you wait, pull up your data, hopefully, you keep track. And you realize, wait, they refer me for cases last month last year, we this other word, I have dinner with once a year referred me 20. Look at the numbers. And really, the data doesn't lie. And that's a mistake that a lot of lawyers make is they want to rely on their gut versus the actual numbers and the reality.
Steve Fretzin 12:52
Yeah, so i think i think that you can, you can make an educated decision through looking at the data, the numbers and the direction of or future of that space and figure out, hey, you know, I'd rather be a bigger player in a smaller, more specific space than sort of a nobody or a smaller player in a massive space that is, you know, overcrowded. And in being noven the story that I tell, and I apologize if everybody's heard this, you know, five times, but, you know, I was in a terrible plane crash when I was in my 20s. And I remember, both of my arms were broken, I'm laying in bed, my dad pushed a phone to my face and said, Hey, talk to Bob. And so I always go with people I go, who's Bob? Everyone in Chicago should know who Bob is, if without me saying the last name, you know, Bob Clifford. So you know not you know, why Bob Clifford, while you have personal injury, you got aviation, while you put those things together, who else should I be talking to me is the only name that stands out really, or that did to my father, who's a retired attorney, but you know, at the time, you know, wasn't. So this is the stuff that we that we all have to do, whether we're lawyers or non lawyers to figure out how to grow a book of business in the most efficient way possible. And I think the other thing about that canon, I don't know how much we want to get into this, but you have the ability to do some fee sharing within that community. Right. So if you know, even if you're not the top expert in certain types of injury law, you can still refer it to other people and, and be a part of it.
Ken Levinson 14:23
Yeah, you can if I get a client, that's not from another lawyer, we can co counsel and fees share ethically and pursuant to our rules, although a lot of times I get a client that is from referring where I review the case, realize it's not for me, and I just introduce the two lawyers to the client, and I step back and let them do the best job they can for the client. Yeah, I think that really comes back in the long run if you are consciously making sure you're doing everything possible to help the client, doing good work, putting in the right hands. It comes back later, whether it's another referral or knowing you're doing the right thing. And there's some sort of karma, if you will. But you've got to make sure that you're the best lawyer, you can be for that client. Because if you your dad would call me, I would say, I'm not equipped to handle this aviation serious crash case up and was it McHenry County? Right.
Steve Fretzin 15:28
Yeah, yeah. So I think that that is insightful to my audience, that's that's trying to figure out, you know, do I want to specialize a and then B, how specialized and so, you know, there's all these different factors, there's specialization and a particular type of, of law, and then there might be sub sectors within that specialization, then you can also think about, you know, specific industries, right. So, you know, trucking is an industry and aviation industry and for litigators out there that, you know, that, hey, they want to focus in pest control, or they want to focus in construction, or they want to focus in you know, different, you know, maybe it's specific types of companies. So, I think that's really where we're, you know, we're, you know, we're a lot of lawyers have to give some significant thought to their future and figuring out where the business is, and where that what they enjoy, and what they want to be known for. So they can be known for something.
Ken Levinson 16:21
That's right, what they want to be known for with a competent and great at. And also, if there's something unique that another word can't replicate it, is there something about your background, you might have been a construction worker, and now you represent construction company, executives or subs on their contracts, or you're a former teacher, and now you represent the union or the school board, if there's something that you can bring to the table is your background before law school or after or you written on the topic you've spoken on that year? You have something that distinguishes you that sets you apart. I think that's worth its weight in gold.
Steve Fretzin 17:06
Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about networking, we've talked a little bit about specialization. And I think one of the main things we want to focus on moving forward is, you know, what are some things that lawyers need to know to grow their law firm, just generally speaking, what are some things that you've done to grow your law firm and to continue to be sustainable and build every year? What are what are a couple things that you'd share that would be helpful?
Ken Levinson 17:29
Certainly try to stay within our model. So if we had cases that don't meet our threshold, whether or not they're a different area of law, or don't meet our threshold, in terms of value, I feel that distracts us, if we want to get a certain type of case, really market for that, and and be disciplined enough to turn away legal work that doesn't fit our criteria. And sometimes that's tough, because you're like, Oh, I can help out with this client. But if it's outside of our niche, you guys say this one, because what you're doing is every case takes a lot of time to handle. So the time you could be using developing the area you like to develop more, and you can really focus on You're distracting yourself from that. I'd rather spend time developing relationships with other lawyers and marketing than handling cases that are outside of our area.
Steve Fretzin 18:27
Yeah, and I think that also takes away from from how good you are and then the actual results because you're, you're you're saying, hey, I want to take everything on that I can get my my grubby mitts on But meanwhile, you know, you're really good at one or two things, not 10 things. So, you know, you're you're trying to litigate something that's way outside of your body all figured out, well, how much time is that going to take how happy or unhappy is the client going to be? And maybe this was a mate, you know, is taking away from all your efforts to do the things that you're really good at, or enjoy or your marketing. So I think that's that's spot on. And so, so I get that what's what's so staying in your, in your groove in your space in your in your lane, if you will. And then what what's another thing that you've done that that you found kind of significant value in investing your time in for marketing.
Ken Levinson 19:15
While there's so many different avenues to market, I know in our personal injury world, there's just so many ways to get to a market with his radio, TV, pay per click organic, social media, you can't do it all. Pick a few things, two things that really work well for you, and focus on those. Because, in my humble opinion, you're better off picking. If you're great at social media, or you're great at billboard advertising. It's gonna distract you and you can't be great at everything. And not everything's gonna work focused on what's bringing in the cases and the revenue and really do that more and more as opposed to try to do everything the new shiny object whether it's a new app or a new social media tool and as a younger lawyer i tried to do everything you know you... and he just can't do it you can't be everywhere you can't do every type of marketing whether it's speaking or all the other advertising means you can use pick a few things that work for you as you might know initially test them out there's nothing wrong with smaller bites if you will or sampling what might work give it a reasonable time if it's not working don't be afraid to abandon that really give it a shot try something else and see what else is working.
Steve Fretzin 20:43
Yeah it's interesting because i i kind of grew up you know being what am i gen x you know never give up don't stop trying never never you know never say you know never stop just keep persistence is everything and that's sort of the way i i kind of you know went through my 20s and half of my 30s and i think there's something to be said about giving up and giving up quick and early and i think there's probably even a book on that i forgot the name of it's probably called giving up or something but that it might be like a seth godin or something but the key thing here is try it and and learn from people that know what they're doing try it and see how it goes and give it a test and if it goes well keep doing it if it doesn't go well and you've got other things that you see are working well then abandon it and abandon it soon don't spend a year doing something that isn't gonna work for you if you if it doesn't work in 90 days again if you're doing it properly if you're doing it 10% of what you should well then that's a different story you know you haven't given it the full effort so and i know that the other thing that you do a lot of is is speaking and getting your name out there by doing presentations talk to that for a minute if you would.
Ken Levinson 21:50
Well there's a lot of opportunity for lawyers to speak and do cle presentations rather where's in your practice area and we found that getting out there and speaking does so many wonderful things one you get to meet people in the audience you get to meet your fellow presenters whether it's at a in person dinner the night before speakers dinner or virtually and then you get to promote that on your social media and say hey look on linkedin i was under speaking last week i was virtually speaking in maryland and arkansas to their travelers associations so i spoke to probably two or 300 lawyers the thing that's nice about it is i might be one of the few personal injury lawyers i know in chicago so it's differentiate myself and the other thing it gets our name out there and shows were called upon to give her insights on the topic so if you can get out there and speak on a topic that you're passionate about you could help other lawyers help their clients distinguish yourself highly recommended.
Steve Fretzin 23:00
You know you i know that you're you're you're a solid speaker and have a lot of experience if you don't have a lot of experience in you're concerned about that one of the podcasts i did a long time ago is i get with a gentleman named david fram who's a lawyer speaker coach and you might want to check out that podcast or look him up on online but a lot of lawyers that i interview and talk to have built really significant books and do really well with speaking another interview i did recently christopher melcher if you want to check that out he's a big time family attorney in in la and you know he built his built his book on building in his brand based on a lot of presentations and getting in front of lawyers so they're your greatest referral sources so you know i think that's that's one of the reasons ken that you've you've kind of built the network you've built.
Ken Levinson 23:50
That's right and christopher i think mentioned in the podcast when he was your guest that you can improve get to smaller associations test it out ask for feedback you have a suggestion steve that when the bar association asked for evaluations and a survey see what comes back suggest a few little tweaks that you're great at helping lawyers come up with that you can improve and then really set the tone when you know lawyers in the audience if you have a colleague or acquaintance ask them for honest feedback not like hey tell me how great i am say no really i want to improve what could i have done better in that presentation what worked what didn't test it and we've done so many presentations these days i know what slides and things i offer work i left some things out that weren't resonating and you can always improve by doing it and i highly recommend studying the podcasts youtube videos and improving because it's it's a skill that most lawyers you would think have but not all do especially when they're talking to other lawyers and there's no requirement to be boring, you can be playful, and you can be innovative. And really, especially since there's no judge, so, you know, normally when I'm in court, I have another word objecting to what I say that's the thing or a little excitable, but in front of a bunch of losers don't judge telling me I can't speak on a topic or say certain things, it's wonderful evangelist speaking opportunities, highly recommend it.
Steve Fretzin 25:29
Yeah, I think I think the other thing I'd add to that is, consider the audience that you're looking to get in front of, so that's gonna be one of a couple categories. It's either people that can directly use your services, or you know, people in our audience that might use your services or need your services, and the others who might be good referral partners or strategic partners for you. And if you're speaking to those people, then I think you're you're gonna, you're gonna see some traction and some progress, where I think lawyers sometimes feel it's not getting them where they want to go is when maybe they're at a conference or something. And they're speaking to essentially everyone that does exactly what they do, but at a different firm, and they're giving them their ideas and everything. And there's really no referrals that are going to get passed or no, no business, that's kind of, you know, no, no way to really get value out of that other than, you know, maybe just building your brand in the, you know, in the in the space, but there may not be a great return on investment for that effort. So that those are just some thoughts I'd put out there about speaking, that I think are helpful.
Ken Levinson 26:29
Absolutely be conscious of your audience. Absolutely. And I think when you're part of guests, and you Christopher mentioned, be conscious of the topic. Yeah. I think, you know, Christopher is a high level family lawyer in California. And he had mentioned, you don't want to speak on, you know, how to handle assets of a welfare recipient in a small asset, Family Law situation, because that's not that's not valuable to people. But that's not what he's looking to attract in terms of business development. So if you want to speak on a topic, make sure it's strategic, that you can help you have expertise in that topic. But also that is going to be something that fits into your business development strategy.
Steve Fretzin 27:17
Yeah, I think that's great. I think it's great. So let me ask you, people that are interested in learning more about your practice or connecting with you maybe to network or may need your services, what's the what's the way that they reach out to you to get you on an email or a phone call?
Ken Levinson 27:32
Sure, I love to help. I am always interested in other lawyers and their practices and how I can learn from them. It helps in any way I can. So you can call me Look at my website, Levinson and Stefani Injury Lawyers, my email Kenneth@Levinsonstefani.com, follow me connect with me on LinkedIn or find me on Facebook, we use a lot of social media, I love getting out there. And whatever I can do to help, please, let's sit down and hopefully, when the weather gets even nicer, we'll go out to lunch or dinner and enjoy some of these phenomenal restaurants Chicago land has to offer.
Steve Fretzin 28:07
Alright, very good. I appreciate I appreciate you and your time and you're sharing your wisdom and experience with my audience. So thanks again, Ken. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Steve, and enjoy the rest of your week. Yes, I will. I will. And Hey, everybody. Hopefully you're taking some notes if you're not driving, and you've you got a couple of good takeaways from our chat today. The goal of course to be that lawyer someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe be well, and thanks for joining us today. Take care.
Narrator 28:41
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.