In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Katy Mickelson discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"I do it purposely - I network, I create relationships with purpose, because you can't be everywhere, it's just not effective." — Katy Mickelson
Connect with Katy Mickelson:
Website: beermannlaw.com
Email: khmickelson@beermannlaw.com
Phone: 312-621-9700
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/katy-homburger-mickelson-580b793/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Katy Mickelson 0:00
I don't join every group out there. And when I do join a group and let's call it either a within a practice, you know within law or a philanthropic group, I tried to be a leader within that group. So for example, the women's Bar Association of Illinois I did for eight years, I ran the domestic relations roundtable event where we would have judges meet with family law practitioners and kind of brainstorm and it was one of the most well attended enjoyed meetings because it really got people together. But I was always the moderator of that and I would always organize that.
Narrator 0:37
Your list listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:59
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I hope you're having a great day so far. And hopefully I'm gonna make it a little bit better for you. I have a tremendous guest today. A friend of mine, someone I've known for many years. Katy Mickelson, got to get the name right, right off the bat, who went from being a law clerk to an owner at her firm Beerman. How's it going Katy?
Katy Mickelson 1:22
It's going great. It's, it's been quite a ride. The last year has been a ride. And I don't think it's over. I think things just keep evolving and changing. And I'm not exactly sure how this is playing out for everybody. But you know, it's got its pros and cons. And here we are doing a podcast. So yeah, it's been it's been fun. My career evolution has been interesting. And then you throw in a year of COVID. And yeah, now fingers.
Steve Fretzin 1:45
Will do me a favor and just share a little bit of your background, because I don't think law was your first career is that correct?
Katy Mickelson 1:51
Now, and it's kind of interesting, because I usually tend to share it just for purposes of, you know, giving me a different dimension for my clients and for my colleagues. But so, you know, I come from a family of lawyers, I have a grandfather, who is a professor, my father is a professor, he also is a practicing attorney, although he's now retired. But you know, when I, when I got into college, I went to University of Michigan, when I got out of college, I was hell bent on not being an attorney, I just thought it was just incredibly sounded incredibly boring. And I also was, you know, who wants to be a lawyer when they're told they should be a lawyer. So, so I had graduated with a degree and a Bachelor's in sociology. And so I, you know, thought about communications that had always been interesting to me. So I decided to pursue a career in public relations. It's also a lot sexier when you're in your 20s, about doing, you know, consumer products and doing these really fun events and media tours and being out on the road with expense accounts, and so forth. So then I graduated in 95, there, there was a lot of there was still a lot of money for PR and so forth. So I went and joined an agency, and I worked in consumer PR for about seven years. You know, right before I turned 30, I wasn't married and have children, I thought, okay, you know, I've kind of hit my fun. I just, I felt like, I wasn't sure where I was going to go from there. And I had such a tremendous experience doing all the really cool things that I had done a lot of celebrities, a lot of really interesting things, and I decided, you know what, I'm gonna go to law school. So I decided, I, my dad was very happy I went to I ended up going to Chicago, Kansas, I went full time, I was one of the older students. So that was a really big challenge for me, because, you know, it's really hard to go from working, and getting recognition, as a leader in, you know, in the workforce, and then kind of being reduced back to being a student. So you know, where you're graded, and you're thinking, God, you know, I managed million dollar deals. And now I've been told I can get an A, B, or C. So I went to Chicago, Kansas, in 2002. And then I graduated in 2005. So that was I kind of just did this whole career shift. And I'm really glad that I did it.
Steve Fretzin 4:12
So when we talk about going from law clerk to equity or owner, there's obviously an evolution there. And one thing that I recognized very early in meeting you is that your relationship person, you're not someone that just glosses over everybody, you really take the time to get to know people and all of that. So talk to me about the evolution of clerk to owner, but in the form of When did you figure out that relationships was a critical element or that you wanted to build a book or that you wanted to be further along in the firm than just an associate for the rest of your life?
Katy Mickelson 4:43
I have to credit A lot of it to my business background and saying how important relationships are I mean, in public relations, obviously, relationships are very important. So title, it's in the title, right? I can't make this stuff up. I have to say also my sociology background. I mean, I think that that Knowing people knowing dynamics has always been something that's really interesting to me. So when I started at the firm, you know, I've always been a go getter. I've always been somebody who just kind of takes the initiative. So when i when i when i Biermann is the only firm that I've ever worked at. So when I was able to, you know, my, my managing partner, who's now my, my partner, who is, has been a wonderful mentor to me, he interviewed me for the job. And I, you know, for the, for the clerking position between my second and my third year. And I really, I want to say, it wasn't that I was Family Law, it wasn't that I, you know, I, my family, my parents have been married for 56 years, I don't have a situation where I come from saying it's Family Law, I wanted to come in this was it. But what I liked about family law was it was very much about you had a really nice combination of relationships, law evolving kind of an evolving landscape. And what was so important to me is that kind of muddled in between that was relationships with your clients, and relationships when you're building business. And I know we'll talk about this later, what they don't teach you in law school. But one of the things that they really, I felt from from the beginning is I came in with a business background, I understood the importance of business. And I kind of asserted myself from the beginning, as somebody who says, you know, what, I'm just gonna kind of come in, I'm gonna grow my practice from day one, start with business development, and then I'm just gonna keep knocking on the door of the person who's hot, you know, who hired me and will promote me, and I'm just gonna keep moving up the ladder, because I'm only as good as my next client. I mean, obviously, I'm, it's important to provide quality service. But from day one, I was thinking about, how do I provide value to the firm, not just value to my clients? Because I have to balance both of those. So that was kind of my philosophy from day one. And slow and steady wins the race. I mean, I, you know, I've been at the firm now. I mean, I started in 2004. So what we're on 16, 17 years. Yeah. And you know, it again, I nothing happened overnight, it was a lot of development, understanding, really kind of narrowing in on what was really important. And I really credit my former background, because I just think it gave me a different perspective.
Steve Fretzin 7:19
Share with the audience, what are some of the things that you learned and used and executed upon to develop relationships that lead to business, give some examples or give some ideas to the people listening, so that they could maybe emulate what you did or what you've been doing?
Katy Mickelson 7:35
So a lot of family law, a lot of family law is based upon trust, and a feeling for your attorney. And what I really tried to do was, you know, a couple things. And this isn't business development, but also is keeping the client you can't free. So so you can bring in the business, right? It's really, you know, I don't wanna say it's easy, but you can bring in the business, but then how do you maintain the client? And then how does that become repeat business? So you have to really look at? How am I getting my name out there as a trusted adviser to the individuals who are going to promote me, to their clients, to their friends, to their family members? And then how do I continue to integrate that into my practice? So you know, as I continued, and I'm listening to everybody, it's, it's a trial and error. You know, one thing works for one client, it might not work for another client, or a resource and that sort of thing. I really tried to be in a lot of aspects, both in my business development, and also my client care, I'll call it a good listener, very focused on so like, when I'm having a business development type of a meeting, I'm listening, I'm mostly listening. You know, it's always interesting when you when you have a meeting, and I'm sure you can relate to this when when somebody else just does all the talking, you know, but but that is often you can glean some really good information out of that. I like to ask a lot of questions, I like to listen. And I do that both in my business development, and then also with my clients, because I want them to continue to feel managed, and to be that trusted advisor. So listening, I guess, if we were to kind of, you know, listening and asking questions has always been from both a business development standpoint, and also just a client management standpoint, really, really important.
Steve Fretzin 9:17
Sure. And I know from from working in your space in the family law, space, and a lot of other practice areas that strategic partners are really critical, because there are certain people that run into, you know, Family Law matters more than others. So if you meet some random person on the street, the chances that even myself like I don't run into people getting divorced on a very, very regular basis, so I wouldn't be able to get you many referrals, other than introducing the plenty of lawyers which that I have in spades. But there are people that run into or that would be the first to know that someone's getting divorced. You focus on trying to find the right strategic partners and develop relationships with them and invest time in them versus trying to meet and build relationships with everybody equally.
Katy Mickelson 10:02
You can't because it's an exercise in futility. I mean, if you, first of all, you spread yourself too thin, and then you see more of like a salesperson, I let you know that the people that I meet are your mouthpieces. So when I, you know, you just said you don't have a client for me every day. But when you do, you all of a sudden want to say I have the perfect person, right. So it's one of these, like, I always say, I'm the person nobody wants to know, but everybody needs to know, you can't. It's one of those situations where it happens out of the blue, and you want to have that trusted resource right off the bat, I don't believe in from my perspective, and it hasn't maybe it's been effective for other people. But from what I do, I don't believe on going to a giant networking event and handing out my business card and expecting clients are going to come from it. You mentioned strategic partnerships, it's really important to me to have developed those strategic partnerships. And so whether that is being a leader, and you can relate to this in a business development group, where you really focus your attention on one group, and you kind of Excel within that group, to being a trusted advisor and somebody who can provide advice in a very specialized way. So for example, you know, you and I are both group leaders for pro visors. And that was always very important to me, because I also enjoy leading. So in addition, the fact that I enjoy it, it gives you the opportunity to really focus your skills on something and be very intense about it and be a leader in that respect. And then people get to know you. The second issue is, you know, I don't join every group out there. And when I do join a group, and let's call it either a within a practice, you know, within law or a philanthropic group, I tried to be a leader within that group. So for example, the women's Bar Association of Illinois, I did for eight years, I ran the domestic relations roundtable event where we would have judges meet with family law practitioners and kind of brainstorm. And it was one of the most well attended enjoyed meetings, because it really got people together. But I was always the moderator of that. And I would always organize that and make a wish, I have been the philanthropy chair for years of trying to help with the Women's Network and their fundraising efforts. And now I am the vice president of a board for the American writers Museum, where I'm going to be helping to promote this phenomenal Museum in Chicago. But I'm the Vice President of the assists, but you know, I don't want to call the associate board I makes me sounds too young. We call it the Chicago Council, which is just a bunch of curated professionals. I do it purposely, I network, I business, I create relationships with purpose, because you can't be everywhere. And it's just not effective.
Steve Fretzin 12:46
Yeah, so I think there's a degree of getting your name out there for the masses, but where you actually spend your time is, you know, which is your most valuable asset is going to be in the right groups with the right types of people doing the right kinds of things and developing the relationships in there. Because that's where the value is for the time invested. That's what it sounds like you're saying.
Katy Mickelson 13:08
It is and one of the best pieces of advice I ever got, and I take it with me everywhere, and I share it with everybody is all you have is your reputation. So the moments, you know, and that's a very loaded concept. So reputation can be you know, that can mean a lot of things, reputation among clients reputation among colleagues, among judges, I always am prepared when I go to court, I'm always kind of I try to be very aboveboard. It's very, you know, reputation then bleeds out into business development into relationships, because those relationships are with people you trust. And trust is built upon how people think of you. And that, you know, once that's gone, it's gone. I mean, it's really hard to pair that.
Steve Fretzin 13:53
Right. So you're doing right by others, whether you're helping them in their business efforts, whether it's how well you do with the client, and they get the feedback. So if a CPA gives you a client, and the client goes back to the CPA and says, Thank you so much, Katy was amazing, really made this less painful than I thought it was going to be, or whatever that might be. That's developing that not only reputation, but also the sustainability of that relationship, because they know that they can trust you at the highest level.
Katy Mickelson 14:20
Yeah, and I mean, listen, they're always at times of things that we can't control. So you know, divorce, and family law is probably one of the most volatile aside from like, criminal law, because we have, you know, a lot of emotions and we have a lot of, you know, it's not the most efficient system in the world. You can't, you know, you can't fix everything. And one of the things that I always say to people, a mentor is, you know, we're only human, we are handed a lot of these situations. So what happens is that, you know, while reputation is obviously extremely important, and it's key management of your clients, and kind of anticipating, you know, helping them manage it, and there's going to be mistakes. Along the way, there's going to be things that you don't predict there's going to be, you know, I just think that that's really important. So I mean, we haven't really talked about client management. But management of expectations, I think is also important, not only with relationship building with your referral sources, but with clients. And I think that that's, you know, that's really key. In terms of also, you know, when you were saying is, you know, building relationships and credibility is also really identifying for the people that are going to be your mouthpiece, what you can and what you can't do, and what they should expect, when they're singing your praises, right, when they're when they're telling people about how you practice or that sort of thing. So being very honest and authentic about that, I think is really important.
Steve Fretzin 15:44
So one of the things I've noticed about and there's a number of areas of law where this happens, where you're the go to right, you're the lead on a matter, but you need help, you can't manage the whole thing yourself, Is there something that you say or do to try to bring in other partners into it or to try to get a little bit of weight off your shoulders as it relates to managing clients expectations and how to best utilize you.
Katy Mickelson 16:06
So it's a never ending process.
Steve Fretzin 16:10
And I've got, I've got a quick story from that movie marriage story. And if you saw that.
Katy Mickelson 16:14
I you know, it's already ironic. I didn't, and I probably right, I probably as the divorce attorney should. And the reason I haven't...
Steve Fretzin 16:20
Before I give before you give your answer, can I just give you the best, the best line of the whole movie, and it's from the divorce attorney that's played by Ray Liotta. So this is a little bit of a spoiler alert, but not the whole thing. But he says he says to the client, if you have a really good question, I made $100 an hour, you're going to want to call me most of your questions are going to be stupid, you're going to want to call Mike, this guy over here. And he points is it essential for 400 an hour, you're going to want to call him for all the stupid questions. I mean, this is a la busting your chops kind of lawyer. Right. So but I just thought that was funny. That's one way to set expectations, maybe not gonna work for everybody, but..
Katy Mickelson 16:55
It kind of it's kind of true. I mean, listen, I one of the things that I The reason why I have it's a double edged sword. So I think I've been really, really successful because people feel that they get me, right, yeah, and a lot of things that I hear from people is, oh, I was passed off to the associate, you know, the attorney wasn't, you know, there, whatever, your lead attorney. And that's hard, because I can't be everywhere, at every moment of the day. So what I tried to do, and what I've been trying to do is saying, you know, when I for example, if I if I'm interviewing a client, and and I want to say that that's a really key statement for me lately, interviewing the client versus the client interviewing me, because I have, what I have found is I think a lot of attorneys as they as they progress, they kind of take whatever comes in. And I think ultimately you really have to be, you know, obviously interviewing the client as well. But when I interview the client, I usually have either an associate or my, my junior partner in the meeting to say, here's your team, I set expectations out because I say, I'm not going to always be available. And also my hourly rate probably isn't going to be and I probably don't do it as as the movie is as harsh as that. But my hourly rate is going to be a lot higher than say, you know, my associates hourly rate. But what I try to do is say, but I'm there. So I will be CCD on important communications, I will chime in, I won't disappear. And that generally works for most clients. And you know, some clients, and then I'll often say, Listen, I'll do what you want me to do. But as long as you understand one, I might not be able to respond to you right away, although I will always send an email saying, got your email, and I'll respond soon, because there's nothing more annoying to a client than No, you know, their email going into into outer space and they don't hear back. Or I'll say, you know, you have to understand that my hourly rate is what it is. And if you want me to be as involved, then that's fine. It's it's your case, it's your life, it's your decision. But I do try to provide options. And again, it's a never ending learning process. Because what works for some clients doesn't work for other clients. And you know, you let go a little bit then all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, this wasn't filed, you know, it's always it's, it's a hard line to have to tread but I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best learning process. You know, no attorney is perfect. And you should never believe in they say they are.
Steve Fretzin 19:18
No, but I love the concept of the team. I love the concept of not convincing the new client, they have to, you know, talk to the associate, but if there's a way to phrase it in a way that is a benefit to them, right? So like, you know, there's questions you're going to have that are actually going to be better answered and better handled by my number two. And you're going to want to reach out to you know, Tim first and then we if it's something that escalates beyond that, then yeah, bring me in. I'm going to be here for you. I'm not going anywhere. But if that takes 80% of the calls that they might just always want to go to you off the plate. Well then Tim's on the line and you're not and then you're able to go out and develop more business because you're not always putting out fires every Tuesday. When they're really not fires, there may be just, you know, just Well, yeah, warm, you know, just keep not fires.
Katy Mickelson 20:06
Right? The majority aren't fires. I mean, and I don't want to I don't want to minimize this because it's something that's really important is I've, I've said this to my associates, I've said this to people on my team. Guys, this is the this is this person. So while we have one of X number of cases, they're living this every day. So they're looking at, like, when there's a delay, or when there's something it means the world to somebody because they're saying, Okay, I'm sitting in perpetuity, and I don't know what's going on, or this, you know, two days that somebody doesn't get back to me is really, really hard. But the way that I really position it to clients is, I think, and I try to position it as I like a team approach, because I want you to always have somebody who can answer you. And it's always important, especially in family law, to not have something on answered. And even if it's, Hey, I'll speak to Katy about it with her insight. Here's my initial thoughts, or she may disagree, but this is what I kind of want to give you my net people feel really well taken care of. And when you position it that way, it's because you're thinking about it, we're in a service, run a service professional. It's about being, you know, service professional.
Steve Fretzin 21:17
So, and again, then then it all repeats back to reputation and how everything flows if you do a great job. Funny story some people may have heard before, and I apologize if you've heard this before, but I was at my first networking event ever in the Northbrook Chamber of Commerce, and a very angry looking guy came up to me and he saw my name tag he goes your name's frets and right, I go, Yeah, he goes, your father Larry frets and I go, Yeah, he goes, he represented my wife and our divorce. And I go, okay, he goes, he was so much better than my attorney. Right attorney was a bum. Your father was amazing. I wish I had um, I was like, Alright, I got a story to tell my dad. All right.
Katy Mickelson 21:57
It's always nice when the other either the other attorney refers to your clients or the others. Yeah. Even more exciting when the other side says, You know what, I wish your man.
Steve Fretzin 22:07
Yeah, yeah. But I was like, I went from fearful to to thrilled all in two minute conversation. But so let's let's wrap up with something you mentioned earlier that you knew I was going to hit you up with, which is I've spoken at many law schools on business development, because some of the judges and teachers and professors there realize that I might have something to offer, but it's, it's a one hour presentation out of there, you know, three years, so it's not going over so well. It's mostly deer in the headlights, and I try to bring it down to relationships and networking and basic level stuff. But what are the things like one or two things that you really wish they had taught you in law school or had a class around that would have that you think would have really benefited you that just didn't happen?
Katy Mickelson 22:49
You know, how to be a lawyer in real life, I think is one of the things that I don't think they really teach you, you know, there's such an emphasis on grades, there's such an emphasis on you know, hitting the right terminology and an exam or, you know, multiple choice. And a lot of that, you know, it's great to be a good, brief writer, it's great to, you know, know, the code of civil procedure, obviously, we need to know the rules of evidence, how to be a lawyer in real life is a very, it's a very broad concept. But the idea that you're not you're, you as an effective attorney, are not going to be that way, because of grades or how well you did on test, it takes a lot of work, and it takes experience and it takes failing, it takes the actual going through cases to get it and really just embracing that, and, and kind of stepping away from the textbook. You know, I wish that they again, I would probably coin it, you know, how to be a lawyer in real life?
Steve Fretzin 23:44
Yeah.
Katy Mickelson 23:44
I just, you know, I just don't think i think that that's, you know, there's such an emphasis on the core subjects, which there should be, but you know, I don't feel that lot. Like, personally, I law school wasn't for me, this kind of eye opening experience, where I was like, Well, here's, I'm going to be a lawyer, it was being a lawyer. So it was an end. So potentially pairing you with attorneys and actually putting you in these situations and being a lawyer in real life. So that that is something that I wish that they would do. And it's somewhat of a pipe dream, because you can't it's one of those the whole things like you can't get a job until you have experience but you don't have experience. You can't get a job, right. So it's like one of these like the, you know, which is first the chicken or the egg. But did your clerkship help with that? Or were you just like filing stuff? Or were you helping out with real legal work? No, I was I was helping out with really old work. And I also, you know, this kind of bleeds into another issue. Find a really good mentor, you know, being I have two phenomenal mentors who I still call to this day. They're my fellow Equity Partners, and I still call them and say, I need help. What do I do? I mean, I'm still learning. You know, I learn every day every experience with a client so align yourself with a good mentor because that is going to be He, for your success, not only, again, experience is going to breed more experience, but it gives you a feeling of security because you're kind of emerging and not really knowing. And you need war stories. war stories are really, really important because it also not only teaches you that makes you realize that you're not alone if something gets messed up, or if you know, so that's something that I think, you know, is important. Of course, we talked on business development day one, get out the door, and don't be shy about it, get out there, network the heck out of it. And I mean, I think those are really, I think some really key things to make you successful. It's not going to be at all, but it's certainly going to put you like head and shoulders above people that you're graduating with.
Steve Fretzin 25:46
Yeah, that's terrific. So wrapping things up, Katy, if people want to get in touch with you, or use you for your own services, if you're listening to this, and things are not going well with your marriage, you may want to reach out to Katy, how do people get in touch with you.
Katy Mickelson 25:58
So they can either obviously they can call my work, joined or provide my phone number.
Steve Fretzin 26:03
I'll put it in the show notes.
Katy Mickelson 26:07
But you can call me, you can email me through my website, you can generally get you can get in touch with me. I'm on LinkedIn, I really like to connect with people on LinkedIn, I have my own Facebook professional page. I've tried to do the same on Instagram. So I tried to be out there and I tried to educate. So really anything that I can do to assist and just be a resource for people. I'm happy to do.
Steve Fretzin 26:28
Yeah, well, that's wonderful. And I really appreciate your coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and your story. I think it's really important for especially for younger lawyers to hear your kind of movement from first career to second career and the evolution of how you developed your business. So I just want to thank you again.
Katy Mickelson 26:43
Thanks for having me. It was fun.
Steve Fretzin 26:45
Yeah, my pleasure. And Hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Katiyand I today. Hopefully again, you got some some great tips and ideas from it. If you didn't, then you weren't paying attention. And listen, you're hopefully one step closer to being that lawyer someone who is confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody and be safe.
Narrator 27:04
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frentzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.