In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kait LeDonne discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Right now, social media attention is an all-time high. You need to be out there providing those comforting statements of what people don't know they don't know about how COVID is impacting them, and you need to be doing it on a platform where your audience is most likely spending time." — Kait LeDonne
Connect with Kait LeDonne:
Website: LeDonneBrands.com
LinkedIn: Kait LeDonne
Twitter: @kaitledonne
Facebook: Kait LeDonne
Instagram: @kaitledonne
Book: The Attraction Magnet
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Kait Ledonne 0:00
If you're not seeing the type of return that you would like on your marketing initiatives, you need to go back to branding, which is really Who am I serving? What pain and challenge Are they really grappling with? And how is it impacting them psychologically? And then how do I speak to that?
Narrator 0:22
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:45
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. Be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. If you're a first time listener, my goal is to help you as a lawyer, learn more about branding, marketing, business development, really anything that's going to help you grow your law practice and get value for the time that you invest in this 30 minute show. I have an amazing guest today. Kait Ledonne, she's an author. She's the founder of Ledonne brands. It's a personal branding consultancy based in New York City. Kait, how you doing?
Kait Ledonne 1:13
Doing? Well, no, New York is stealing fall like this last week. And I'm not sad about that.
Steve Fretzin 1:20
Okay, well, yeah, it's crazy all over, we're still living in the zombie apocalypse and trying to figure out how to how to get through day to day. But I think you know, most of us if we have our jobs in our health, we're probably in a pretty good place.
Kait Ledonne 1:33
I can only echo that for sure. It's been a real practice and gratitude. I would say for me personally, these last couple of months,
Steve Fretzin 1:40
No doubt about it, no doubt about it. And so of course, as my my listeners know, I do a terrible job on on giving people's BIOS, but I always enjoy hearing how other people describe themselves. And and you as a branding expert, no pressure. But do you want to give a little more information about kind of your business, your background?
Kait Ledonne 1:57
Absolutely. Sure. So our business will dawn brands really helps two segments, and niche categories of folks, one, our executives, turned authors, business authors. So these are individuals who have run companies for years, they've largely been behind the scenes. And now they are making the leap into being an author and sharing all that wisdom. With a larger audience. They're working with traditional publishers, and we are so excited to be wonderful partners in building up their social media audiences, and social media networks to really have a ready to buy market. So when the book comes to publication date, they have people who are engaged and excited for their message. So that's, that's definitely one side of the business and the other. And it's funny, because they'll jump back and forth between the two is certainly professional service providers, of course, attorneys, accountants, those of us who are knowledge workers, we're selling our expertise for a living, we help them find clarity in their personal brand messaging, and then take that messaging to very much do the same thing we do with authors. So build up an engaged following, and then get them you know, on podcast, as expert commentators in the media, really transfer that online audience into offline purchases and relationships, and, you know, business for their firms. So we're very, very lucky to work with a group of individuals who are in every single, right, just leading their industries and leading leading expertise in their industries as well.
Steve Fretzin 3:34
Very cool. And it's kind of a fun way to start today's there's something different or interesting, you'd like to share about yourself that maybe not everybody knows.
Kait Ledonne 3:43
I think a lot of people now know me as a brand marketer, for sure, and a personal branding expert. But what my family and college friends will still tease me about and say, I got my first claim to fame from was I was on a box of ear warmers which are still in circulation and some targets and JC Penney's throughout America. And every winter season, I'll get a picture there, the ear warmers, 180s. Right, they wrap around the back of your head, oh, yeah. They're pretty just not disruptive. And so when I was going to school in Baltimore, that company was actually headquartered in Baltimore. And my agent called me and she was like, Hey, we have a great modeling gig for you, you know, can you swing it? And I said, Sure, it was my first national campaign, I had no idea what the product was. And then I showed up on set and they were like, just act cold and smile. And I was like, What is going on here? And then months later, somebody called me from Target was like, I think, a box of your hormones and I said, everywhere.
Steve Fretzin 4:48
Well, that's like the most famous, you know, winter, you know, type item of clothing that people wear in the cities because they don't want to mess up their hair, and they want to keep yours warm. So that's, that's You know, I have to now go online and try to find that picture.
Kait Ledonne 5:02
You know, first to send you five boxes, I think she collectively bought most of the stock. circulation Yeah, but every, every year I make my grand my grand reappearance and a target by you.
Steve Fretzin 5:20
Very cool. Very cool. Well, that is different and interesting. So you nailed it on that. So so let's let's get into more substantive stuff that hopefully will also be as fun. And that is, you know, what's your kind of general philosophy about branding? So when you talk about branding, you know, when you do presentations like what's the Reader's Digest version of like, what's the What is it? And how is it different than marketing and sales? And how does it all fit together?
Kait Ledonne 5:45
You know, branding? It's a great question. And Thanks, Steve, everybody very much gets branding and marketing confused. And I get that. And branding is really the I mean, fundamentally, the in depth knowledge of your target audience, I mean, deep, deep knowledge of who that person is, who that ideal avatar is. And then messaging that aligns with what pains and challenges, they're feeling that you're uniquely poised to help them solve. And so marketing then becomes the way that you circulate that message, not to just make it an incredibly, you know, reductive or or simplified, but it really is that and so I think a lot of times, folks, they'll look at methods, you know, why, why are the methods we're employing, not working, and we need to fix the marketing, when nine times out of 10, I would assert, if you're not seeing the type of return that you would like, on your marketing initiatives, you need to go back to branding, which is really, who am I serving? What pain and challenge Are they really grappling with? And how is it impacting them psychologically? And then how do I speak to that, versus leaning way too much into my expertise in the solution? A lot of people you know, when you're looking at branding, when you're looking at selling to anybody, people are driven by the following three questions. Do I feel seen? Do I feel heard? Do I feel understood? And the more you can spend time with that and your branding, the more you're going to skyrocket past people who who overstep that critical, critical deep dive in the beginning and then just go to market so that's the way I I would say most easily explain it to people.
Steve Fretzin 7:28
Got it. Got it. And so the one that always keeps coming back to me is the commercials for NyQuil where it's like that we see the person on the screen and there you could tell they're suffering and says the achy head, stuffy fever, so you can rest medicine and sure enough, when I'm in the grocery store, and I'm feeling a certain way, or I'm getting something for my wife or something, that's where I'm going to go because the branding just it's it's sunk into me, and I can't let it go. So when I see Robert Tussen, or anybody else, like they're done, like I'm not going that direction. So are there Are there examples of brands that you love or that you that that give a great example of of the here see understood type of philosophy?
Kait Ledonne 8:06
Okay, yes, I have one that I am so into, it's not a national brand. So you guys are like, it's not one you would hear the name of an all of you would know, however, it is particularly relevant for the type of industry and field that attorneys are in. So I got to give everybody some homework to go look up this, this brand. It's called shared practices, I believe, let me just get that straight share practices. And what it is it's a platform that helps dental practice owners grow a profitable dental practice. And when you look at the wording that they have on their website, and the messages that they're sending to their base, it is so spot on let me just read you what it says on their home page, an incredibly large text. Oh crap, I have no clue how to run a practice quote, unquote. Then it says thought by every first time practice owner, even if you could remember the one practice management course you took in dental school, how would you know if it's any good? What works for Doctor academic and his former practice might not work in yours? your location, patient base and clinical philosophy are unique to you. So Shouldn't the systems and practice management tools be custom fit as well? I mean, they dive into the deep, deep dark fear that their audience is feeling right at the top of the fold of their website by saying, Oh crap, I have no clue how to run a practice and when you call out what somebody is challenge, in this case, the challenge is how am I going to grow a successful dental practice by really illuminating the worst fear you know, what do I fear people think is true about me because I can't solve this. You have a customer so quickly. So I think that brand is a little bit of a, like, nobody really knows this brand, but they're wildly successful in their niche.
Steve Fretzin 10:07
Very cool. Yeah. So it's, it's just laying out exactly what the main pain points are of the people that would be coming to the website. And then it draws them right in to say, hey, that's me. They're talking to me.
Kait Ledonne 10:19
Right? Like, are you in my diary? Are you in my mind? How do you know that this thought is going through my head? And so if you want to want to really take it a step further, let's say you're talking about a divorce attorney, right, let's bring it into the world of law. Of course, the challenge on the surface is, you know, divorce not something people, hopefully have a ton of experience with. I'm you know, and so the challenge may be for your client, they're trying to get the most equitable, you know, separation they profit possibly can, they're also going through a world of emotions, and they don't know what they don't know about this next phase of their life. But I would assert somewhere underneath of all that is this fear that they can't help but think that maybe on some level, they're a failure, right? There's all these very irrational fears, we have challenges, or we make challenges mean about ourselves. And so if you use language like that, in your branding, or your marketing, you say, like, I get it, it feels like on some level, you failed. But that's not the case. You know, there's light at the end of this tunnel, and we're going to help you with that. You immediately win the trust of a prospect or somebody who's looking at your messaging. And that's the Level A lot of people don't get to any branding.
Steve Fretzin 11:37
Gotcha. And is, Are there specific mistakes that companies or individuals are making in their branding efforts, and what you said earlier resonated with me that I'm marketing like a like a madman, or like, I've got all this marketing going out. But it's not getting anywhere, because I never took the time to really get the branding straight. Right. So it's sort of like wasted energy in some cases. So are there are there top like, top three mistakes that companies or individuals make, you know, before they go to market?
Kait Ledonne 12:04
For sure. So I think Mistake number one, you haven't defined your niche audience well enough. And for first, this is a practice by practice exercise, every practice given, you know, the different experts you have working in that practice are probably going to have a different niche client or ideal client avatar. But if you don't have an ideal client avatar, I mean, you cannot tell me right off the bat, I work with people who I work with women again, to go back to Divorce Attorneys, I work with women who are between 50 and 60. They're becoming empty nesters, with their children leaving the home, they are realizing they're not connected to their partner anymore, and they're going through a divorce. And at this point, they built out a considerable amount of wealth that they need to wade through, if you can't tell me that that woman's name is Wendy, she's 50 to 60, she's living in the suburbs and rattle off everything I just said, you haven't niched your audience down enough, you really need to be able to say it like that. And so I think that is, across the board, the biggest mistake people make, they're trying to be too broad. And when you talk to everybody you talk to nobody. Number two, particularly when it comes to knowledge workers or thought leaders is you're not minding what I like to call the expert gap. And when I say that, you have an advanced degree, if you've been in your profession for even five years, you're, you're probably a bonafide expert in the sense of, you know, way more about your field than other people do. But when we go to market, we're speaking at expert level 10, not remembering that our prospects at best, our expert level 1-2, 2 if were really generous, and so I find that a lot of knowledge workers, or attorneys, they they try and bring that language down and meet the client where they're at, but they're still hitting it, maybe a five or six, the real thing you need to be speaking to are the problems. You know, I think too many people spend way too much time marketing their solutions, rather than empathizing with a problem. And so you really need to mind that expert gap. And the quickest way to do that is to know the problems and the beliefs your client has about themselves because of those problems, and then address them. And then number three, I think people almost like they are with their audiences are trying to do way too many things. And marketing is somebody who is involved in marketing that might be contradictory or seemingly contradictory. But I am really a fan of you know, focus means follow one course until successful just because you know, for XYZ down the street from you is on six different social platforms and has radio ads and is doing this does not mean that that is right for you. You need to start and really refine and perfect a marketing channel where you know that niche audience is and dominate that before you roll it into another marketing channel. And when you do that, you do get the ability to refine Message to hone that message and see what works before you start expanding it into other channels. But I just find people are doing way too much. And it's causing them burnout, they're not getting an ROI. And they really haven't given themselves a chance to see what messaging and formula works the best. So those will be my top three right off the bat.
Steve Fretzin 15:17
Okay, and I know that a lawyer that's listening to this is going to be pushing back on on the first one about going ash because they're gonna say, Well, wait a second, I don't want to go so narrow that I give up things, they feel like they're gonna lose something by getting specific with a Can you address that?
Kait Ledonne 15:34
Absolutely. You know, I had the same fear, I really did. I started my business as the brand consultant, period, like the most gentle, I thought it was pretty niche in the sense of I wasn't just a marketing consultant, I was a brand consultant. And it was the same thing, I didn't want to lose opportunities. And then I went a bit more narrow, and I just started working with professional service firms. And then I went a bit more narrow, and they had only personal branding for executives or partners of those firms. And then we started to work with authors, you know, a lot of those partners or executives were writing their first book, and they, they wanted help on refining the messaging around there. Now author brands. So I say all this to say, we then got very Nishi within our own company and said, You know what, we're really going to start telling people and I was sharing with Steve, before that we're going through a rebrand right now that we exclusively work with executives and partners who are transitioning to becoming nonfiction business authors, I mean, talk about Aneesh, like, it's not just authors, it's nonfiction business authors coming from a very specific point in their life, you would think I had left so much money on the table. And I have to tell you all, the business has quadrupled. Since we got narrow in that messaging, it's easier for people to refer you you get to be really good and formulaic at the things that you're really good at that are in your zone of genius, and you become very, very much a brand, you get higher brand equity. And if you think about all the brands that are you know, household names now, they didn't start as broad they started narrow, you go narrow, you go fast. I think, a firm that does this extremely well. And I'll have to I'm blanking on this, their name, because I thought it was one thing, but there is a firm out in California that exclusively does dog bite cases, a lot of their cases are helping us postal workers with dog bites. I think it's called like bite law or bark law or something, but talk about a nice brand. And they're killing. They're killing it. Because they niche down so so much.
Steve Fretzin 17:46
Yeah, I think that's where, where most lawyers are headed in the sense that, you know, they're not yet my father was a was a retired lawyer. Many people know, but he was a generalist, and he, you know, he did a lot of things well, but but it did fine. But that was in the 70s in the 80s and early 90s. So now, it seems like everybody's reaching out in labor and employments, you know, different practice areas, and they're staying within their little practice area. Now, the next question is, so let's say you decide to stay within a practice area, let's say Family Law, just to make it simple. And bash on an earlier example, should you then you know, we know like in Chicago, there's a guy, you know, Jeffrey loving, who does father's rights, so he decided to neish out and just say, look, it's not just Family Law, I want to represent the dads. Yeah. So is there is there a reason for people to get even even more niche than than just selecting a particular practice area?
Kait Ledonne 18:41
Yeah, you know, I think, I think a couple of things. And I think it's dependent upon the professional right? For me, I really took a long hard look at who is the type of person I just enjoy working with? And what lights me up and it sounds like Jeffrey was his name. Right. Jeffrey looked at, you know, maybe he had an experience of, of, I don't know this to be true, of course, but he really saw what was possible when stepping in and helping dads have, you know, more shared custody of their kids or maybe even predominant custody because he saw people really get, you know, unfairly treated in that regard. I would assert that Jeffrey feels a lot of fulfillment in working with that niche and narrow of an audience and being wildly passionate about it. I feel the same way with working with nonfiction business authors, you know, you really get to become an expert expert in a niche. And again, I would say that because of that Jeffrey probably gets more questions more asked for his expert opinion, because he's more defined. And so in my experience, you know, I think that the reason to go even more niche within a niche is because clients We'll find it easier to refer people to you know, Geoffrey's clients, dads hang out with dads guys hang out with guys, it's easier to sit there and refer other people. For me. Again, it just became more of the what what work really lights me up? Oh, interesting, I find that within my category, there's a there's a customer profile that I just really enjoy working with how can I recreate customer x 20 times over? Well, I'm going to be very, very articulate then about who customer x is. And I'm going to say I'm, I'm the person for that. And when you do that, you'll find customer x does get multiplied and your life becomes a lot easier as well.
Steve Fretzin 20:42
Yeah, so I think that it's interesting to look at practice areas to look at maybe certain types of companies that you want to go after or certain, you know, slivers of, of what they call vertical markets, right? and things like that. What about trying to come up with some form of differentiator and work around that. So for example, let's say that a law firm is highly responsive, and they want to focus on something like that. So that's not targeting a particular group of people, but it's maybe targeting something that you know, the, you know, the the audience or that or the potential prospects want? What would be an example of that? Or what do you think about about working around something like that for a brand?
Kait Ledonne 21:23
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, really looking at what a defined audience wants, right? I think the first part of it, again, going back to just being nice, being narrow knowing and being able to say what the particular nuances of the challenges that defined market feels, then you're really in a position to say, Okay, then these will be the things that they appreciate. And we're going to create a brand around that. When I was branding, an association for accounting and tax professionals of a state. I was in a leadership session with them a leadership training session, and the guy who led the session said something that was very, very interesting to me. And he said, you know, you, you have three focuses, and you can only do one of them great. And two of them well, and so what is going to be the thing that you do, that's really great. And so I think, to your point, you want to look at, okay, what are the three biggest things that this client segment would really, really enjoy, whether that's responsiveness, whether it's, you know, they're millennials, and so we've reoriented the firm to give text updates, do zoom videos, I mean, all of our reality now and pandemic, but, you know, we're orienting around communication that they prefer, perhaps, I would look at those three things and then say, Okay, now what is the one thing we're going to do really great. And then the other two things, we know, we'll just do it well, and we'll brand around the great thing in the messaging when it comes to, you know, somebody considering working with our firm over something else. And so in the case of you're working with Millennial clients, let's say maybe it's millennial startup founders, and you're a business attorney, helping them register things, you know, that unique differentiator of we have millennial teams, you know, where are we we communicate with you in the 24, seven startups cycle that you're used to whatever that is really elevate that
Steve Fretzin 23:23
Got it got it, so you know, we've talked about, you know, the the pandemic a little bit and is there something that that lawyers law firms should be doing with regards to their brands in adapting to the COVID-19? And what we consider now the new normal?
Kait Ledonne 23:39
Yes. So I think, again, it depends on the practice area that you're in, you know, this COVID-19 is impacting every facet of every person's life in a different way. For Family Law Attorneys. I mean, we've seen divorce rates go up, we saw that in China, where they got out of lockdown for business valuation, you know, those attorneys were helping with valuations. Now, there's challenges with Okay, well, what is the valuation of a business that's going through a year like this year, and you know, an economy that is getting rocked a bit and so you need to know what parts of the pandemic, of course, are impacting your target client, in which ways but what I would say after you get really clear about that, and I'm sure you all are very clear about that, because the first person we tend to call for for troubles our journey is, I would put out a lot of content then around that challenge. And around that problem on whatever social platform your audience is on. So Family Law, maybe Facebook, right? You know, business attorneys, LinkedIn, but right now, social media attention is an all time high. You need to be out there providing those comforting statements of what people don't know, they don't know about how COVID is impacting them, and you need to be doing it on a platform where your audience Most likely spending time because right now, if you invest in content creation on those platforms, like a, like a spring, you know, we're all recoiled under pressure now, but then when it lifts, you'll have accumulated so much brand momentum and goodwill and an audience that you're, you're just gonna take off. And we're already seeing that with a lot of professional service providers now.
Steve Fretzin 25:22
Well, let's wrap up with something that I wanted to know and get your take on. And it's, it's in line with what we're just talking about. Now, with, with social media posting, it's really around authenticity, I think that's something that's been pushed the last, you know, five to 10 years as as a key sort of attribute to success in businesses is how authentic Are you in your in the messages you're putting out and how you come across. And so now more than ever, with, with everybody being slammed with social media, with everybody slammed with all the different ads and messaging around it, some of it seems kind of fake. And some of it seems kind of opportunistic, and some of it seems incredibly authentic. So how do we stay authentic? Or how do we we kind of demonstrate our authenticity during this time.
Kait Ledonne 26:06
There's a firm in Baltimore often Kerman that's doing their they do some it's like a practice area, there's I think it's their their labor and employment group, but they they do a live zoom video with their their attorneys in that practice area. And sometimes there's kids just floating around in the background, you know, they're certainly more dressed down than they would have been at the fancy office and downtown. And it just feels so relatable. You know, they share things that they're going through themselves, and homeschooling and things like that. And so you really do feel like not only am I learning and getting value from what they're sharing about, you know, how do I handle paychecks right now in this time, and how do I handle my employee base, which they're certainly speaking to, but then all of a sudden, you see one of their kids or they're talking to each other about, you know, how we're accommodating to two attorneys working at home and, and kids in school, it becomes quite affable or authentic or, you know, humbling. And I do think that with all this remote work, one of the more refreshing things that have happened for people is the the professional persona and the personal persona, same assume kids in zoom calls and kids at home, you know, you can try your best. But you know, that's always up for a kid sneaking into the background, I think that that's actually done very well for people and makes you feel relatable and not opportunistic, and a fellow human being going through the same situation as I am while still being able to provide, you know, guidance in an area that I'm struggling with.
Steve Fretzin 27:48
got it got it. Well, that's really, really great. And I think everything you've shared today is, is incredibly helpful to individuals and firms that are trying to be authentic, trying to figure out how to get their Brandon in line. And I think you might be a great resource for people that are interested in, in taking things to the next level. So how do people get in touch with you? What's the best way to engage you or to get your content?
Kait Ledonne 28:14
Sure, thanks. Well, Ledonnebrands.com, for sure. And then I love LinkedIn. You know, I'm not quiet about my infatuation with that platform. I'm probably their number one fan. So definitely, you know, LinkedIn with me, Kait Ledonne, I'm pretty active there as our clients. Gotcha, gotcha.
Steve Fretzin 28:33
And what's the what's the book? I know that you're you're an author? What's the book that you've that you wrote?
Kait Ledonne 28:37
Yes. So we really wrote a guide. It's called the attraction magnet, the seven insider secrets, the world's largest brands use to attract clients. And I wrote it really five years ago, when I was feeling the crunch of trying to you know, there's got to be a better way than just killing myself trying to do business development. And so I thought, what if I could really do attraction marketing and figure out how to just bring people to me and bring leads to me. And so it was through my own exploration and in challenge that I really wrote this guide that we then went on to utilize that framework and everybody we work with, whether at the time it was a corporate brand now personal brands follow those seven insider tips, you can get it for free it's an ebook it's at the website. Definitely utilize that, especially as we're talking about, you know, growing a really authentic brand. It comments a lot on that.
Steve Fretzin 29:38
Perfect, perfect, I'll grab a copy for myself right when we get off the off the show. But, Kait, just want to thank you again for being my guest and being so open with with my audience. I really appreciate you taking some time for us.
Kait Ledonne 29:50
It's my pleasure. Thanks, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 29:52
Awesome. And uh, Hey, everybody, just want to thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's coming organized in a skilled Rainmaker, Take care everybody and be safe.
Narrator 30:07
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.