In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jim Ries discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"I decided that I was going to double down on my marketing and look for opportunities to get in front of the people that I want to be in front of. And the only way to get in front of people that you want to be in front of, is to create your own event." — Jim Ries
Connect with Jim Ries:
Website: OffitKurman.com
Email: JRies@OffitKurman.com
Mobile: 410-733-6133
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jries
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jim Ries 0:00
I want to meet people. And I want to learn about new people. So I want to be curious. I want to be interested. not interesting. I want to be the guy asking all the questions because the more questions I asked you, the more I learn about you the greater opportunity that I can actually help you.
Narrator 0:26
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for drilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve, Brett said,
Steve Fretzin 0:49
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And I hope you're having a great day today. so far. If you haven't heard Fretzin, is the place to go for your business development coaching and training or peer advisory. We offer all types of programs for lawyers looking to accomplish different things. So feel free to check out our website at Fretzin.com. It's F is in Frank r e t z i n.com. It's also in the show notes of this show. So I have a very different guest in different in a lot of ways as you'll find out but different in the sense that he focuses on working for a law firm as their business development person. So not business development in the sense of he supports the lawyers and their business development efforts. He actually does sales business development for the law firms. So he's the director of business development of offit. kurman. And his name is Jim Ries. Jim, how you doing?
Jim Ries 1:44
I'm doing well, Steve, thank you for having me today.
Steve Fretzin 1:47
Yeah, well, thanks for thanks for being on the show. We've known each other now for a little while. And I think we're we're getting to be fast friends. And so do me a favor and give a little background on how you came to be and how you came to be at your firm.
Jim Ries 2:01
Okay, got it got a couple hours.
Steve Fretzin 2:03
Well, let's keep it to two minutes or less, goes off.
Jim Ries 2:07
Well, important to know that right out of college, I worked for 31 years for my family business. And we were importers and distributors of ladies footwear. I ran that business for the last 10 years while we were still in business and we closed in August of 2009. That's important because while I was running the business, I was buying legal services as well as lots of other things. Shortly after the company closed, had a couple of jobs and ended up with a great opportunity at Offit Kurman, which is a full service law firm, at that time, had about 90 attorneys and a few offices in the Mid Atlantic, I was hired with two other career business guys in management roles to help manage the practice groups of the firms and the attorneys in those practice groups. At the time, I thought that was very entrepreneurial, very progressive, a very business like way to manage the attorneys in the practice groups. After about three and a half years in that role as practice group manager, management came to me and basically said, Hey, Jim, you know, attracting clients to the firm is not part of your job as practice group manager. Yet, you've been able to do that. People seem to know you and like you and trust you and everywhere I go. People seem to know you. So what do you think would happen if you did this full time as a director of business development? And my response was, How soon can I start? That was one of those red letter dates. When overnight, I went from managing 40 attorneys, to managing nobody. And out on my own on my own island doing business development, the way that I pretty much taught myself how to do it.
Steve Fretzin 4:06
Now you're in a you're in a unique position, and I know only have one other. Like Personally, I know of only one other person that is working at a law firm, as a business developer, that's not a lawyer. And so why is it that law firms haven't figured out that this could be a good way to develop business for the lawyers who maybe aren't interested in going out and developing business?
Jim Ries 4:31
Well, I asked myself that question often and I'll look at it the other way. And, you know, kudos to offer Kerman for recognizing that, you know, the law the practice of law isn't business. Offit Kurman is run like a business and in any business, if you're selling a service or product, you need sales people and business development people and marketing people to do just that. So again, kudos to Offit Kurman to seeing that. And I can't really explain why other law firms haven't done that, except for possibly, they don't see themselves as a business like bickerman does. We are very entrepreneurial, we are very progressive. And we're usually way, way ahead of the rest of the folks out there. When it comes to innovation and implementation. I will say that people ask me that question all the time. One of my answers is that there are people even in our region with a title, that's typically marketing and business development in a law firm, or an accounting firm. And when you see that title, when I see that title, and then meet those people, they're generally their role is probably 90%, marketing, and 10% business development. So if I'm at an event with someone who's marketing and business development for ABC law firm, or ABC accounting firm, and I'm working the crowd, they're Manning their little booth, or their six foot table and putting the, you know, the tablecloth on there and lining up the pans and all the swag, and the pamphlets and stuff. And I'm talking to business owners. So that's the best way that I can illustrate the difference.
Steve Fretzin 6:24
Got it. Got it. So your focus is, is identifying targets and going after those targets. I'm working with lawyers every single day to help them do essentially what you're doing every day. But obviously, they also have the billable hour. So what are like two or three things that you do that's been really effective for business development in the legal services realm that you would be willing and open to sharing with my audience?
Jim Ries 6:52
Great question, somewhat of a loaded question. But we've all learned that people will buy from you when they know you, like you and trust you. And to me, and by the way, the fourth item is when they need you. To me the key ingredient there is trust. So, you know, you and I could have kids playing on the same rec basketball team. And you might think that we're going to do business together just because we see each other at practices and games. But the fact is, if I don't trust you, and if I don't need you, we're still not going to do business. So I think trust is the key. And what I have done is, you know, I got myself out there and branded myself as somebody that you will know and like and somebody that you can trust. So trust is is really big, and how do you gain that trust, I think one of the ways I gain that trust is when I tell someone, I'm going to do something, like if you and I are having coffee, and I say you know, you should meet XYZ person, I follow up on that. And then so you have this sense of trust, that, hey, I like Jim. He's a guy I would have a beer with. But now I trust him because he told me he would connect me with this guy. And he did. So that's that's also an added value. And that's something that I feel differentiates me from many others out there, I try to show people that I can add value, I can add value by finding them clients or resources or whatever it is they might be looking for. That's huge.
Steve Fretzin 8:37
In let me add on to that, that I think lawyers sometimes are concerned when they're networking or they're even meeting with a prospective client, they want to add value. And they just say, Well, like I don't have enough clients or I don't know who to who to give. I think that's where you really have to have a network, you have to have some deep, trusted people that you know, that you think would would have synergies with other people you're meeting right you need to have, like the two worlds need to collide for this to work.
Jim Ries 9:04
Well, maybe one reason why you have these challenges with some of the attorneys you work with is they may not be looking at it through the same scope that you and I do. And you know, when I meet someone or walk into a networking event, pre pandemic, or a virtual networking event that I do now, I've got this attitude, like I want to meet people, and I want to learn about new people. So I want to be curious, I want to be interested, not interesting. I want to be the guy asking all the questions because the more questions I asked you, the more I learn about you the greater opportunity that I can actually help you. So in our conversation, you might say yeah, you know, we're we're moving we're we bought a house and now we got to sell our house. And maybe I say well do you have a good realtor, I know a great realtor who sells a lot of houses in your neighborhood. Would you like an introduction? I mean, I just got one today where somebody sent an email out asking for a, an electrician. And I gave him the name of of great client of ours that does electrical work electrical contractor. So that's, that's added value. Added Value.
Steve Fretzin 10:26
Yeah, so added value. And I love your answer the know like trust in that that you try to identify a need. Be curious, be interested. And that's all right on the money. Let me ask you this in, you know, the three things I'm asking are the three points I was, you know, the tips that you could give attorneys on getting business talk specifically, if you would about how do you get in front of a decision maker you are looking to meet with whom? And how do you get in the door with that general counsel with that CEO with that, that title that could do business with your firm?
Jim Ries 11:04
Well, I'm, I'm a big LinkedIn user, I'm very active on LinkedIn. And I have a subscription to LinkedIn Sales Navigator that allows me to do a deep dive into your connections, you know, with your, you know, if I asked you, "Hey, Steve, can I go through your connection?" So, you know, if you, you give me that opportunity, and I look through there, and I can do a filtered search, adjust the type of people I'm looking for, I usually search for secondary connections in a certain geography, and I search specific titles. And then I'm going to ask, okay, here's a list of six people, or is there anyone here that you know well enough, where you can make a very warm introduction. So I'm looking for people who are connected to the people that I want to be. And, you know, if the if the first person can make the introduction, I'll go down the line and, and hit up somebody else who can make that introduction. And I really learned that not just warm but very warm. So the best introduction via email would be I find someone on your LinkedIn, and I send the name to you, you're like, yeah, I can make a very warm introduction. You what you make the introduction, ad to john doe. And John replies, hey, Jim, glad to meet you. Any friend of Steve's is a friend of mine. There you go. So he's going to meet with me either virtually or in person. And we're going to have a nice conversation, and I'm going to learn about his business. And very often, I'm going to learn that he is currently underserved by his his attorney, and there is room for us to get some work from him.
Steve Fretzin 12:52
Okay, so let's let's do you mind if I just real quickly unpack what you just said, because there's so much good that came out of it. Number one is that prospecting doesn't have to be a huge time sock, meaning if you can identify who your trusted partners are, look through their LinkedIn contacts, find the titles, find the companies, find the people that make sense, go to them, ask them to make a warm introduction, or even coach them through what they might want to say, to get that inroad, and you're getting a seat at the table with someone that you're meeting with. Now, they may have a need that gets explained or they may not have a need, but you're getting to know them. You're asking questions, you're identifying a need, that they're underserved. And you're sort of off to the races. So, so much is just just, this is not rocket science and brain surgery, right? This is this is common sense stuff that you're doing, but it just flat out works.
Jim Ries 13:49
Yeah, exactly. I'll add to that. So when I asked you to make an introduction, I send you my sort of email template, which shows you how you can introduce me, you can copy and paste it. And I always allow you to make edits. If you think it doesn't sound like you. You want to make edits, that's fine. But why would I make it work for you to make an introduction, so I send you the email, and all you have to do is copy and paste it. And an email basically says, Hey, Jim's a prior business owner, he's now Director of Business Development for offit. kurman. And he likes to learn, you know, likes to meet with business owners and learn about their businesses. Jim's a good guy, he was able to make some connections for me or get me a speaking engagement. And, you know, I've only known him for six months, but he's a man of his words, and I think you'd like to meet him. What that really gets me a very warm introduction.
Steve Fretzin 14:49
And so if you had to put it on a out of 10 so if you did this 10 times, how often would you say you actually end up in front of that title that GC that CEO etc.
Jim Ries 15:01
Probably get a meeting at least eight out of 10 times eight out of 10 times.
Steve Fretzin 15:05
Okay, yeah. So even if you're listening to this, everybody, and you're saying that seems high, well, this is this is a guy, you know, Jim has built his network, he's built his brand, he's built these relationships, you may not have done that yet, you may be at an earlier stage, or you may not have really considered how deep you've, you've made these relationships. So I think step number one is you have to have deep relationships that are willing to step up for you, the number one source should be your clients, you know, it should be the people that have already used you, they love you, they think you're great, you walk on water, all that great stuff. And then the second tier might be your strategic partners, that might be friends and family, people that really know you love you, etc. And they're willing to step up. But the biggest thing that I think we've taken out of this jam is people need to be coached, I think, if we leave it up to them, I because if I left it up to somebody, they would just say Steve's a great guy, you should talk to him, Steve, me, Bob, Bob, meet Steve. And it's a huge waste of time, it's not going to go anywhere, nothing was properly set up. So I always try to do a little coaching, as you just said, to try to make sure the table is set in a way that's going to be a benefit to everybody. Right? And that's the that's the thing you're talking about.
Jim Ries 16:16
By the way, if someone says, Sure I can I can introduce you to john doe, I'll just call him and tell him that that he should meet you. Or next time I see him or something like that, that's not going to cut it if you really want a very warm, very informal email introduction, because then you can follow up and myself follow up is, Hey, Steve, thanks for making this introduction. JOHN, nice to meet you virtually love to learn more about you and ABC Company, and see how we can support each other. Are you available for 30 minutes zoom call, you know, next Tuesday at 12, noon, something like that? Yeah, by the way, you're you're you're on target with the you know, the the the clot your current clients being your number one source, because and it's such a missed opportunity from by by most attorneys, and most people in general. And I met with a client a couple of months ago, we were having coffee, and he told me he had joined a Vistage group. And I think you and most of your listeners know what Vistage is very high level, peer to peer network of business owners. And I said, So who's in your group? And he mentioned people and out of eight people? There were four that I didn't know. And I said, Jim, you know, do you know him? well enough to make an introduction? Sure, of course. So I got four introductions and have probably, I had good, really strong meetings with with all four of them and have converted three out of those four.
Steve Fretzin 17:59
Wow, that's it. That's it. So this is, you know, this is really interesting to talk about, because I think we can even then start diving into the head trash that lawyers have about business development, whether it's asking a client for something or or getting an introduction made or what's going on with their in there. And I know the answer to this, because I'm dealing with with lawyers all day, every day, and you may not see in a different way. But what are you seeing is their primary like head trash of why they're so reluctant to go out and get business and and have these conversations, especially with their clients and people that trust them.
Jim Ries 18:41
I think they're uncomfortable with the whole conversation about sales. We we at our firm, don't use the S word, the sales word,
Steve Fretzin 18:50
that's a dirty word.
Jim Ries 18:51
I call it something else. I think people, you know, typically are, are afraid of being turned away. They're afraid of no. So I would say those two things. They, you know, they're and thirdly, that, you know, attorneys aren't really schooled in selling when they're law school. So they'd look they've got billable hour requirements, I get it, I make it really clear. I don't have that. I don't do any client work. My sole job is to do business development. And attorney has lots of different jobs, one of which is business development, but they've got billable hour, you know, they've got a lot of stress on them to produce. They're doing client work, and that comes pretty easy to them. Typically a generally speaking, and generally speaking, it doesn't come it's like second nature to them to sell. Were to hear the word No.
Steve Fretzin 19:53
Well, you know, and it's interesting, obviously, you know, putting lawyers through some rigorous programming between now six and nine months with Me in in classes and coaching and in working with other lawyers. And the goal here is really to simplify business development. So instead of them thinking about how uncomfortable it is, and I have to go in and figure this thing out on my own, we're giving them proven processes, proven language proven, you know, questions to ask things that, that they just have to learn and then execute. And then they, they have these aha moments where the things that they learned actually work out, because that's what they're supposed to do. Like, they work out for you. And they work out for me and whatnot. And that's really the beauty of what I think I'm doing. But getting someone to the table to have that conversation about learning business development, and, and everything is really tricky. It's really a very challenging conversation that lawyers I think are avoiding. For sure. Yeah. And it's unfortunate, because that's what their compensation and their ability to be self sufficient and sustainable and secure. It's all about business development. And so, you know, I'm in this constant battle, and I unfortunate that I have, you know, a nice, you know, you know, kind of like not a line of people waiting for me, but I'm working with like the top 5% of ambitious, interested coachable attorneys, and those are the people I actually want to spend time with. But But I think there's another percentage of, of maybe another 10 or 20%, that probably should be jumping, jumping in the lake because the waters warm, they just have to do it.
Jim Ries 21:27
Yeah, for sure. One thing about our firm, our firm really attracts rainmakers, because we reward rainmakers the way they should be. And so we have a firm full of rainmakers. And, and each of them, you know, they do their own fair share of production. But they're there, they're making it rain, they're catching fish, they're feeding the rest of the attorneys, and a lot of cross selling, it really encourages a tremendous amount of cross selling. So that's done very well for our firm. And so we're attracting rainmakers. And, you know, generally they're, they're very, very successful, our firm.
Steve Fretzin 22:07
Yeah, let's let's, let's go to the next sort of stage of things we've talked a little bit about, about prospecting. We've talked a little bit about, you know, meeting with people and asking questions, and trying to identify those needs and everything else. How do you keep in touch with people? How do you follow through and can maintain these relationships? Because I think that's another challenge lawyers have is, is the organization that it takes to stay in touch with their top strategic partners, their clients, on non billable matters, non billable conversations, what are what are a couple things that you're doing to really stay top of mind.
Jim Ries 22:41
So and that's, by the way, that is the key staying Top of Mind, for me, pre pandemic, it was showing up at an in person networking events, and where I could, you know, see a whole bunch of people, but it also included coffee meetings, lunch meetings, etc. With people one on one. Now, during the pandemic, it's actually gotten easier for me to touch more people more often. And be be top of mind with more people. So what I did in in towards the end of March, when I realized where this pandemic was heading, I decided that I was going to double down on my marketing, and look for opportunities to get in front of the people that I want to be in front of. And the only way to get in front of people that you want to be in front of is to create your own event. So I've created a couple of my own events, with partners that are recurring monthly, or bi weekly, in some cases, where I invite the people that I want to meet, and the people that I want to see I invite them to these virtual events. So I'm seeing them at least once, maybe twice a month. And I'm touching them and I'm top of mind. So that is huge. Secondly, I've got a newsletter that they see once a month with relevant and current and meaningful content. And then I'm active on LinkedIn, as I mentioned before, again, posting original relevant and meaningful content, sharing content from other resources, do a sharing personal stuff about maybe me, my family, my work, whatever it might be. So that keeps me top of mind. And there'll be some people listening that think this doesn't work. I promise you it works. You have to be consistent with it. You don't have to be as active as I am. But you have to be consistent. And with social media, maybe it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or Tuesday and Thursday for 15 or 30 minutes. You've got to be consistent. You got to be active being passive on on LinkedIn does work. I call that being a lurker or lurker is somebody who scrolls through their thread and they see, look, when Steve frettin posts posted, that's nice, and doesn't like it doesn't comment on it, that's a lurker, you got to get into it, you got to be engaged, you've got to be active.
Steve Fretzin 25:18
So really, what we're looking at, then Jim, is we're looking at a combination of social media management newsletter to get your name out there once or twice a month, we're looking at, you know, setting up events, or at least attending events, something where you're just, it's just a regular, you know, momentum forward about how you're continuing to get your name out in a positive way. And then from there, you know, that sets up sets up everything else.
Jim Ries 25:45
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, it's, it's being being consistent and being you just got it, you just got to be, be willing to spend the time and do all of that. It is a lot of work. But if you schedule it on a regular basis, you provide the consistency and you keep at it, it'll be like second nature after after a while.
Steve Fretzin 26:09
And some of it has to be done on your own. And some of it can be outsourced. I mean, you know, quite frankly, your assistant or paralegal or outsource company could do the newsletter, put it together, you know, you just have like, I write my subject. And then I tell my assistant, like, what do I want in the newsletter, that's already content I've produced or content, that's fine, double. And that's really it, I'm kind of out I mean, even this podcast, I'm just doing the 30 minute segment with you. And then I'm handing off to a team of people that then edit it and put it together and post it and everything else. So some of it is is is things that you have to put effort into and other stuff, if you're smart, you can, you know, possibly get some assistance on it to make it really flow.
Jim Ries 26:47
Alright, and especially for the attorneys, you know, that again, they have billable hour requirements, so what's their, their their highest and best use is, you know, the billable hours and, and getting the work done and doing client work. So probably not their highest and best use to, you know, to put together a newsletter, like you said, and there are plenty of really qualified people out there to do the newsletter to do some social media engagement on your behalf. And things like that. There are people that helped me set up my my virtual events, and they handle the registration. And you know, it's at the the table is set, and I come on and we're good to go.
Steve Fretzin 27:33
Yeah, so I think this has been really helpful. So again, lawyers listening, you know, this is an individual and you know, Jim, who, you know, he's he's out doing what you know, we're asking you to do every day, but it's his full time job. And so, you know, keep in mind, we know the kind of tips that he's giving, because he's in the in the trenches, like you are every day, but it's a full time job. So, again, we know it's not your full time job, but it's something that's important for you in your career. It's important for you in how you're going to you know, get a better seat at the table at your firm or be portable, whatever it is that you're looking for business development is just not an avoidable situation anymore. So Jim, thank you for being on the show. How do people get in touch with you or connect with you? If they'd like to learn more? Or just, you know, be on your being a LinkedIn buddy with you?
Jim Ries 28:17
Sure. My email is jries@offitkurman.com. And my mobile number is 410-733-6133. And you can always find me on LinkedIn Jim Ries, I should pop up, you know, on LinkedIn right away and feel free to connect with me and let me know that you heard me on Steve's podcast.
Steve Fretzin 28:51
Awesome. Thanks, Jim, so much for giving your advice. And I know this was very helpful to my audience so much appreciated. Thank you.
Jim Ries 28:59
Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 29:01
Absolutely. My pleasure. And Hey, everybody, thank you for listening today. And, again, the goal to be one step closer to being that lawyer someone who's confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker be well.
Narrator 29:16
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.