In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jim Lundy discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Whether you're on your own as a solo, whether you're in a small firm, or whether you're in a large firm, I think you do have to view yourself as your own businessman." — Jim Lundy
Connect with Jim Lundy:
Email: James.Lundy@FaegreDrinker.com
Cell Phone: 708-557-9656
LinkedIn: Jim Lundy
Website: FaegreDrinker.com
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jim Lundy 0:00
Yeah, you're not going to be able to take them to a ball game, you're not going to be able to after an in person meeting, you know, just catch up with them on a personal level, you know, in the hallway of your building, all of that in a personal level is gone. So, what we've started to do and in my role as a leader of the white collar team is think about what we can do in this virtual world.
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for thrilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:48
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I'm Steve fredson. And welcome to the show. Hopefully, you've been listening to some of the other podcasts we've done over the last number of weeks. We had some really amazing guests. I have a really terrific guest today in a top business developer client of mine friend of mine in Jim Lundy, who's a partner at vagary drinker. He's also the CO leader of the white collar investigations team and best interest compliance team over there. Welcome, Jim.
Jim Lundy 1:17
Hey, Steve. Thanks for having me. Hello, everyone. Looking forward to our discussion today.
Steve Fretzin 1:22
Yeah, it's great. And I of course, didn't. As people know from listening to the show, I do a terrible job on bio. So if you would mind just given a Reader's Digest version on on your kind of your background and your bio and leading up to our chat today.
Jim Lundy 1:35
Sure, happy to do so. So as Steve mentioned, I co lead our white collar investigations team and also co founded and co lead our best Tetris compliance team. My practice primarily is in the area of what I call financial regulatory enforcement, defense, and the main agency that I represent clients across from as the US Securities and Exchange Commission. They also represent clients and other types of investigations and potential litigation involving the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, FINRA, which regulates the brokerage industry and state attorney generals who conduct investigations in the space. But so at least 75% of it is predominantly with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. In that area, it will also do some regulatory work and provide some compliance costs for clients such as investment advisors, hedge funds, broker dealers, companies, and the individuals who run those organizations. And what led me down this path and private practices, I spent the vast majority of my career at the US Securities and Exchange Commission, working in their enforcement division for almost a decade and then helping run their examination program for the Midwest. After that, I had a short stint working in house, it was number two person in house at the brokerage firm, Amro the large Dutch bank enjoyed that work. But really it was I was doing that work and working more and more with partners that outside law firms, I realized that for me, that's where I wanted in how I wanted to practice was to develop my own practice, and have the autonomy to do that in a law firm environment.
Steve Fretzin 3:05
And the people that know you and have worked with, you know, you're a top player in your space, very highly regarded. But was there something that inspired you to develop your own book of business, because that's another aspect that I wanted to kind of talk about today is you've kind of got the law down to a science, you really get it. But why why business development why grow book?
Jim Lundy 3:28
There's really three concepts that I think led me down this path. One of them is while I very much enjoyed and had a tremendous experience, and I think it greatly contributed to developing my practice. My time at the SEC, as with most governmental agency work, whether it's federal or state, involves bureaucracy, and it involves being part of a large organization that can sometimes limit autonomy and creativity, based on the fact that you know, you are a representative of that particular governmental agency. And many decisions, particularly high level complex or potentially controversial decisions involve serious feedback, or perhaps even decisions being made above your level. And then you being dictated what to do. And after a certain point in time, you know, you get to a point where you may disagree with what you're being advised to pursue. So that's a big part of it. The other part of it was during my time in house, I really thought that, based on the relationships I had with the outside law firms were using that I could do that just as well, or if not better than them. And probably Lastly, you know, my father was an entrepreneur. He was a self made businessman in the food and liquor and grocery business, I was growing up and he was in fact his own boss. And I knew that the best way for a lawyer to be their own boss was to develop their own practice and for the type of work I do, the best place to do that is typically at a large law firm or at a boutique law firm. That's specializes in this type of area. So, I was very appreciative of vagary drinker giving me an opportunity to do that when I started in private practice about four years ago.
Steve Fretzin 5:09
Yeah, and probably my dad's best advice to me growing up was, you know, if you can own your own business, be your own boss, because you then can control your destiny and your future. And I think lawyers that you know, whether you're at a, you know, on your own, or at a firm, if you can have that book of business and dictate your you know, what you do and how you do it, again, you know, with with taking your partners into mind, you know, keeping them in mind, really gives you a lot of control. So it sounds like that was a big a big point of focus for you is just making sure you, you're able to control your destiny?
Jim Lundy 5:41
Correct. Absolutely. And, and I really enjoyed that. In the firm, he supported me to do that in the areas that I wanted to develop my practice. And ultimately, whether you're on your own as a solo, whether you're in a small firm, or whether you're in a large firm, I think you do have to view yourself as your own business demand. Yeah, one of my partner meetings of practice group leader, and the leader of the firm, said it best when he said, while we may be a larger firm, the 200 partners that are here are 200 business people, and the men and women who are here while they're practicing law. And while there are partners in this law firm handbooks of business, that they need to run and treat, like, like a standalone business, and they need to treat their clients accordingly.
Steve Fretzin 6:20
Yeah, and, you know, another part of it is lawyers, I think, look at business development is such a downer or such a negative, like, it's to have to go out and find your own clients or develop businesses that's not, you know, interesting, or something that they would find funner or engaging. However, I think you and I would both agree that that it can be and so are there particular elements of business development and marketing that you enjoy, and that you really feel, you know, rewarded for doing?
Jim Lundy 6:48
Yeah, there definitely are, I mean, I, I just naturally enjoyed opportunities towards the end of my tenure at the SEC, when you get to a certain level where they support you to speak at conferences, or to contribute to an article. So some of those visibility efforts that lawyers need to engage in are things that I actually did enjoy. There is obviously a time commitment to other parts of developing your practice, such as you know, getting together with people for lunch, or coffee and, or dinner, things that Unfortunately, we can't do in person currently. But I think what I did was I treated that as importantly as the billable hour. And that's where I tend to either whether the terminology is not enjoy or not maybe give it the same level of priority. My sense is that those people need to figure out within their own skill sets. And you don't necessarily need to be an extrovert to the success worthless. But what I think you need to do is prioritize and understand that, that that hour of your time, or that 30 minutes of your time, is as important as that billable work. Or if you know, you're working in a contingent setting the work you're putting into that matter towards a settlement, because that's what leads to the next matter. And every case that we have, every project that we have with a client is is decaying in some way, shape, or form. As soon as we get it in, it's moving towards closure at some point. So how do you maintain the relationships with the current clients, expand those relationships with current clients? And how do you get the next client and so that that needs to be top of mind as him in treated I think as importantly, as is what I think is also critical for all of us, which is the client service involved. And those two things need to be key that the business of law, the billable hour, the collection, that's important as well, because without that we none of us would have a business or a law practice. But that shouldn't overwhelm the other two points that I just mentioned, which is the business development, marketing and the client service once the matter comes in the door.
Steve Fretzin 8:51
I mean, I've observed that you, you know, obviously being very good at what you do was a huge advantage. But you've also developed a lot of relationships with other lawyers and with other people in businesses. And how have you use that or utilize that, you know, to get inroads that maybe didn't exist before?
Jim Lundy 9:10
That's a great question. So you know, unlike some other members of the profession, I spent the vast majority of my career outside of the private practice of law. And so I had a certain degree of skepticism regarding on the importance of relationships with other lawyers. And as I was making the transition to private practice, I kept hearing about the importance of that. So while I had some skepticism, I made a conscious effort to pursue that area of possible referrals. And what I learned is even for friends of mine who practice in the same area, in the same type of law firm, with the same type of clients is that you can't view them as competitors. You need to view them as as collaborators and as potential referral sources from time to time you They find yourselves pitching against each other. And that is a competitive environment, and you should do all you can to get the work. And that means you got to beat the other people. But generally, that relationship in the longer term is probably going to be more important than in the shorter term, being in that competitive situation in the heat of the moment. And so I've tried to keep that in mind. And truth be told, two or three of the largest matters that I brought in, at my firm have been through fellow partner referrals from contacts of mine, either through our time together, when we worked on the staff at the securities exchange commission, or through other relationships that I've developed over my years of practice.
Steve Fretzin 10:42
And I think that's something that we focus on, you know, in the, the coaching that I do in the skills building that I work on, and we worked on together was, you know, it's great to have good contacts, but if you're not comfortable approaching them with with a in a soft way, or or asking them to help or asking them to introduce, and getting them enthusiastically to behind you, it can be kind of like, like climbing Mount Everest for some people. So are there one or two things that you that you do in those kinds of conversations to advance the ball?
Jim Lundy 11:15
Here, what I primarily do is, I am definitely someone who engages in the soft sales process. And a lot of it is what I do for a living most of my potential clients. And most of the people in my referral network who can introduce me to potential clients do not want to be the subject of a governmental regulatory enforcement investigation. So when that work comes to light in how that work comes in the door has a certain randomness to it. So you need to engage in some thought leadership generally. And when you're in those relationships, take the opportunity to let people know that you have the legal expertise, but also that you have an approach that you think works well. And my approach is always I'm going to try to help you sleep at night, I represent people in a highly regulated industry where their personal professional reputations and their livelihood are at stake. And so investigations don't last month, typically last years, and my goal is to be that great left tackle who can pass protect you from the blitzes that are coming. So you can play quarterback with the rest of your life. So that's what I tried to do. And I try to convey that message. The other thing that I tried to do is to figure out a way to assist people who have taken time out of their busy lives to meet with me. And that may be to introduce them to somebody in my network. And oftentimes, it's not necessarily a lawyer, perhaps it's someone that I knew in college or someone that I met in my personal life, who has their own successful business that has some overlap with someone that I've met as a potential client. And, you know, can I connect them in, in just at base from a networking perspective, and what I found is when you extend that offer, and you try to help people that you stay top of mind, you know, sometimes I've had people say, you know, Jim, you work in a unique area, you worked at the SEC, can I introduce you to someone who's in law school, I have never said no to that, for a variety of reasons. A, I was once a young lawyer, and once a law student, and many people who were 10 2030 years older than me took time to talk to me, and also write, while that may be a nice reason to try to get back, you know, the relationship and the introduction that I get is something that could lead at some point to an opportunity down the line for me, so why wouldn't I want to assist a potential client or assist a young lawyer or a law student? I spent a little bit of time with them and talk about my own experiences for 25 years of practice.
Steve Fretzin 13:47
Yeah, and this is maybe something maybe people are sick of hearing about. But obviously, there's been some challenges in the legal community related to this specific pandemic we're going through right now. What are you sort of seeing on the field as it relates to the pandemic? how it's impacting lawyers in the legal community in general?
Jim Lundy 14:04
So that's a really good question. And I think, at my firm, and with lawyers in my network, we've, we've really kind of come to the realization, I think, in the last 30 days or so. And I think it's part of what we're struggling with as a society, I think when things really hit those of us in the United States hard in March and April, many of us had our fingers crossed, that perhaps there would be some sense of normalcy, whatever that normalcy will be, by the late summer or early fall. So I think it took a little more time for it to set in that for the rest of 2020. You're not going to see a client or potential client over lunch, you're not going to see them at a conference, you're not going to be able to take them to a ballgame. You're not going to be able to after an in person meeting, you know, just catch up with them on a personal level. You know, in the hallway of your building, all of that in a personal level is gone. So What we've started to do and in my role as a leader of the white collar team is think about what we can do in this virtual world. So for example, we talked about attorney referrals earlier, there's a former sec colleague of mine, a great lady who works at Foley and Lardner and we're going to do a virtual coffee next week, we're also doing some group sessions where we have larger clients that our firm where I'm part of a team and provide services. Next Wednesday, we're having a happy hour, wherever the senior partner is going to find out what the favorite drink is, of the people who are going to join us from the client. I've heard of partners, I haven't done it yet, because I'm not quite sure anybody wants to see me eating lunch on a screen. But I've heard of partners who have started to do lunches and have ordered lunches to the extent their clients are comfortable, and had them delivered to their residents. So I think that is something that is starting to gain momentum and will continue through the fall, I have spoken at a couple of virtual conferences, that is good. From a visibility perspective, what's missing in that regard is there obviously is not any interpersonal reaction after your session ends. But I think what I've seen and on the pro visors group, we're a part of is a good example is trying to figure out how to do smaller group settings via zoom, and then have people do either breakouts or have an opportunity to talk in that regard. So it feels a little more personal, even though we're all talking through a screen. So I sense that many of us in the profession have turned the corner and realized we need to embrace the new reality, and use the virtual opportunities that we have to continue to interact with our clients and potential clients.
Steve Fretzin 16:36
Yeah, I mean, obviously, in my business, too, I've been having to alter a lot of the things that I was teaching lawyers to do, and you know, lunches and conferences and all that, and we've how we've moved it around. And so I think you really nailed it on the head with with a number of the different things that you're focusing on. And, you know, just just trying to get back in front of people to ask, How can I help you? How can I be of value to you? Who do you want to meet? You know, what, what do you need for your business to get through this? And, you know, if you start off in from an angle of giving or helping with sincerity, you know, obviously, that's important. And then 70% of the time, they're gonna say, Well, what can I do for you? How can I help you and, again, if you can lead them down a path, and give them some some real coaching as it relates to what you're looking for? I think I think it can, it can be a win win fairly quickly. Kind of the last thing I want to talk to you about Jim is just to wrap up with a segment I call, they never taught me this in law school. And while there might be a number of things to go with there, from your perspective, and from a growth perspective, what's something that, you know, every young lawyer must know, kind of either coming out of law school or even as a young associate in the in the marketplace right now?
Jim Lundy 17:45
Yeah, I think the one thing is, and I'll say this a couple times, it's clients, clients, clients, you need them, you need to develop them, you need to treat them with the utmost respect. And you need to expand the relationships you have with current clients to see if you can offer other services to the extent you're at a firm that allows for that, and you need to be mindful of bringing in additional clients, law school, and I'll be honest, and other people may not feel this way. I think it's the worst professional postgraduate training that there is, you're taught to be an academic and a theorist, you're taught a little bit about how to practice but you are definitely not taught how to develop a practice. Without clients. In the private sector, when you're at a firm or on your own. You can't practice law, you can be the smartest lawyer in the world, you can be great at what you do. But without clients, you don't have a job. And so I think that's what's what's important in terms of what you're not taught in law school. The reality is right, as we know, I'm not trying to be glib about it. If you're an incredibly talented lawyer in a particular area of law that you practice, and you have skills, like the skills that you develop and work on with your clients, Steve, you get clients, it's not necessarily a plus b equals C. But being a talented hard working lawyer is a critical part of the equation in going to a good law school and being a good law student is an important foundation of that. But nevertheless, right there's no course that I remember in law school, and I'm, and I think I'm gonna wear one right now at the law schools that my firm interviews at that talks talks about the importance of things like business development, and marketing, and client service. And when you're a partner at a law firm, regardless of your practice, and regardless of the size of the firm, those things are as important as the skill sets that you develop in law school over the court and and over the course of your career.
Steve Fretzin 19:36
Yeah, I think that's got to change in the future. I don't know that they're going to be sustainable not being able to teach people how to network or develop relationships or develop clients slash you know, just be prepared for the future and and doing your part in growing whatever law practice you're you're in whether it's on your own or with a with a firm, so...
Jim Lundy 19:57
It's really been left to the profession, right? I mean, there's a certain level of the legal profession that I think is not changed 100 years in that it's left to the profession to treat young lawyers in an apprentice type role and mentor and develop them. Not just as good lawyers, but as people who can serve as clients and develop business. And I think the profession does do a good job of that. I think the disconnect is our law schools could in some appropriate way, start to think about how something like that can be implemented. So law students can transition more smoothly from being students to being lawyers.
Steve Fretzin 20:33
Right, right. Well, listen, Jim Lundy, very educational, inspirational. You're a terrific resource for lawyers to learn from. And is there anything you'd like to promote or any? How do people get in touch with you?
Jim Lundy 20:47
Sure. I mean, people can reach out to me via email. It's James.lundy, at faegredrinker.com. And the best way to reach me during these times is on my cell phone 708-557-8656 obviously happy to talk to anyone who may ever need the skills that I provide for clients, but also, you know, anyone that wants to talk about client and business development, I'm happy to do that, as I said, always happy to get back and talk to people, in large part because there were many men and women more experienced than me when I was a young lawyer who took the time to do that for me. And also, Steve, just thank you. I mean, I think that what you offer to the profession is unique to focus on the legal profession and what we need to be thinking about to develop and strengthen our practices.
Steve Fretzin 21:32
Well, I appreciate that I appreciate you and all that you do. And I know you're out helping a lot of attorneys, you know, every day as well as your clients. So So thanks for joining me today.
Jim Lundy 21:41
Thanks for having me, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 21:43
Yeah, yeah. And hey, everybody listening just just want to thank you again for taking the time to hang out with Gemini this during the day here, and hope that you enjoyed today's show. The goal is to help you become you know, one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody and be safe.
Narrator 22:06
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.