In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jerry Maatman discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"The first is you need to invest in yourself. You need your time. Be your own best friend when it comes to business development. And by that, I mean you need to set aside time, not once a month, but every day to polish your brand, to enhance your skills, and to deepen your relationships." — Jerry Maatman
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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Jerry Maatman 0:00
The way things are in 2020 are different than the way things were five years ago. And anyone who thinks they're going to be the same two years from now, is not looking around the corner and planning for the future. So, your mantra about thinking about what you're going to do over the short term, over the long term, and now you're going to get there that sort of personal planning. My mind is all important.
Narrator 0:27
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law firm. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:50
Welcome everyone to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And if it's your first time listening to this show, it is all about business development for lawyers, marketing, networking, really helping people to just figure out how to maneuver through building a law practice successful law practice. I am absolutely thrilled today to introduce my guest, it's Jerry madmen. He's one of the top employment attorneys in the country for time law 360 employment MVP, and one of the top four lawyers in the US for client service based on a poll of GCS a fortune 5000 companies. Welcome, Jerry.
Jerry Maatman 1:25
Thanks so much, Steve. Great to be here.
Steve Fretzin 1:28
Yeah, I really appreciate your taking some time, I know how busy you are. Maybe if you wouldn't mind just given a little bit of background on yourself and your law practice how you help people, that type of thing.
Jerry Maatman 1:37
Sure, I've been a lawyer for 39 years now I started practicing law in 1981. As a general litigator, I migrated to employment law by the late 1980s. And in the 1990s, I began focusing and concentrating on complex and class action work. So in this respect, I practiced law and learned how to serve clients before the advent of the Internet. And in my view, strategies for the manner in which a lawyer serves its clients has considerably evolved since then, if it was 1.0. When I started at the turn of the century, or when the internet started, it was 2.0. I'd say now it's 10.0. Things have changed and evolved. And being a successful lawyer is quite an adventure these days.
Steve Fretzin 2:30
And so I know that being a great lawyer is sort of, you know, the baseline that that you need to get to and then what goes beyond that? What are the things that lawyers need to be thinking about that so critical to a successful sustainable practice?
Jerry Maatman 2:45
Well, I think for me, I had a fork in the road and an experience with a client and a piece of litigation it had in the 1990s. And it taught me a lot about what I do today. Every day, when I wake up, I had served as defense counsel to a UK based Wall Street firm that was sued by the Attorney General of New York, a man named eliot spitzer. And he had brought a very novel, workplace discrimination action as a class action. And it was the first of its kind situation and I was dealing with a board sitting in London, reading about their company in the Wall Street Journal and in the New York Times as a result of things that eliot spitzer did when he basically tried the case to the press. For me hailing that case was kind of like white knuckle rollercoaster ride turned out well, I got the case dismissed and settled on appeal for peanuts. But I learned a lot of lessons that I think have held me in good stead ever since. The first was that the ability to craft legal strategies as events unfold by the hour, and we're a client's brand or very existence is subject to media attention, demands creativity. It demands innovation, and really a 24 seven dedication to client service if the board in London needs to have a call. At eight in the morning, their time, it might not be convenient for a lawyer sitting in Chicago, but needs to be done if you're going to dedicate yourself to solving those clients. problems, also taught me that every case, every legal problems unique and success is a function of getting the client ahead of the problem, and figuring out multiple ways to solve the problem or multiple solutions before these events overtake a CEO or the company's board or the company's General Counsel. So what it did for me is it allowed me to recommit myself to viewing legal problems through the eyes of a client, and working hard to hone and polish my skills as a legal problem solver. I also became a member of the New York bar. And since then I've been privileged to handle matters for clients. They're ranging from the city of New York to the New York Mets. So it was a very transformative experience for me and opened my eyes as to what in the eyes of a client, it means to be a great problem solver and a great lawyer that they want to hire.
Steve Fretzin 5:23
So I mean, that's clearly the most important aspect of being a great lawyer and the client service and just being being smart about how you solve problems. But obviously, this show is about that and more, and it's about business development. And you have one of the largest books of any attorney I know, maybe by quite a margin. And was there a point where you realize that business development was important, or that was going to be something that was going to help define you in your future?
Jerry Maatman 5:50
I think I did. And maybe the light bulb went off when I was a senior associate, maybe I'd been a lawyer for 678 years. And I sense that lawyers that were having the most fun, and who had the most interesting practices were those who control their own destiny. And I wanted to have fun, and I wanted to have the most interesting practice I could have. And I didn't want to be beholden to someone else and ask them for support or for work. And so I resolved every morning ever since to wake up and figure out how am I going to find the next case, the next project the next client? Luckily, at least for me, I've never looked back since then. And I've been self sustaining, and thankfully been able to keep a lot of other people busy and mentor them, and help them transform their practices into these standalone practices where they have fun. And they have very interesting practices that keeps them supercharged every day and wanting to come to work and be the best lawyer they can be.
Steve Fretzin 6:50
Were there one or two things that you wouldn't mind sharing that you did specifically, to help you grow that book, things that that you when you say you wake up every morning with that mindset, then what happens during the day? Or what what are some things that you did or continue to do? That helps you to make sure that that stays, you know, sustainable and growing?
Jerry Maatman 7:12
Well, at least for me, I'd love to learn, I like to learn about people, their businesses, and how I might be able to add some value to what they do. And I embrace it, enjoy the process. And I'm constantly looking in the mirror and practicing what I call the one minute elevator pitch. If I was sitting next to someone on a plane on the train, or I meet them, and they want to know what I do, and I'm engaged with them about what they do, and how I could formulate solutions, and to get them ahead of problems, how can I do so in a short succinct way in which I can instill confidence in them about my ability to be their lawyers. And so, to me, the most satisfying thing about being a lawyer is what I call project number two, that stems from doing an excellent job on project number one. And so one of the most satisfying things for me when I look back on my career thus far is that I've got some client relationships that extend back more than 25 years that have survived multiple CEOs or executive teams or multiple general counsel's and to me, the ability to provide those solutions and to learn their problems and to deliver is something that keeps me charged every morning to get up and do it again.
Steve Fretzin 8:39
I mean, I have found that one of the toughest things these days has been client loyalty, you know, how do you, you know, keep and maintain and build off of existing clients and relationships? How are you being more than just a lawyer to your clients?
Jerry Maatman 8:54
Well, I'm asked that question quite often by younger lawyers who say something along the lines of well, gee, I joined a bar association or wrote an article, and I'm trying, but nothing has occurred. And so I say that if you look at the Hall of Fame of baseball, there are a bunch of people who are in the Hall of Fame, who are 300 hitters, who succeeded one out of three times. And so to be a good business developer, to be someone who builds a book of business, you need to be able to deal with rejection. Nobody gets every assignment and persistence, diligence, dedication to the process, viewing it as a long game, at least for me is paid a lot of dividends. So what I try to share with them is you have to have a laser light focus on the key thing, and to me, the key thing or the coin of the realm is crafting an optimal solution in a very efficient and effective way. That's it once sentence crafting an optimal solution for a client in an efficient and effective way is the best way to get project number two, to me in the age of the internet responsiveness is a given. And you have to be super, super responsive about solving that problem. You have to make it a priority. You have to show the client that every day how you make them and their problem a priority. And if all lawyers were the same responsiveness would be the same. And it's just not. So there are some lawyers that excel in responsiveness. So it's not just the right answer. It's the right answer at the right time. And so I say to lawyers, you have to create an effective brand, what do people think about when your face or name comes to mind. And what you want to do is try to enhance your brand, your personal brand, to polish every day to improve to be better never rest on your loyal morals and view every day is a day where you're going to strive for that excellence. So you need to have a good mindset that you're not going to win every project every case, you have to deal with rejection. But you got to view it as a long process. If they say no, today, doesn't mean they're gonna say no next year. And you need to just be better and better with your game and be on your game to be the person they want to call it solve their problem.
Steve Fretzin 11:26
Yeah, I think that's that's all, you know, critical stuff. And I think that there's certain, you know, planning that can take place. And not everybody does this. But I found that with, at least with the clients I work with, I'm trying to work with them on plans of how they touch their clients, or how they keep in touch with prospective clients so that if it isn't going this year, that they're at least you know, they're seeing their social media posts, they're seeing their newsletter, they're being invited to sit on a panel, there's things that we can try to do to, to keep in touch into into show that we're thought leaders in in the area that we're in, because again, when a problem happens in their current council isn't being proactive or isn't isn't an expert in certain area, you know, they may want to, you know, second opinion or try something out as long as you're keep.
Jerry Maatman 12:12
Absolutely, you're spot on, I think that if you can live that sort of manner that practice that approach, it's going to pay dividends over the long run.
Steve Fretzin 12:20
And I think the problem is most of the attorneys at least that I'm engaging with are really out there just winging it, just, you know, kind of going going about things any which way instead of having maybe a basic level plan about, you know, who's on that target list, and how often am I touching them? And then what am I doing, you know, to be above and beyond what maybe that that standard lawyer is doing?
Jerry Maatman 12:42
I would agree I'm often asked, gee, Jerry, you know, what do you do, or what are things that I can do to be more successful, I just can't break through when it comes to business development. And I kind of think of four things. The first is you need to invest in yourself, you need your to be your own best friend when it comes to business development. And by that I mean, you need to set aside time, not once a month, but every day to polish your brand to enhance your skills, and deepen your relationships. I view it as like tending to a garden and you have to water and fertilize and and handle the garden every day. The second thing I would do is you got to forecast the future, what's hot, and what's not in the legal industry changes by the hour. And you need to look ahead and around the corner in a consistent, persistent way in terms of what are going to be the legal issues confronting the market or your potential clients or your existing clients in the future? And how can you help your clients get ahead of those issues? And how can you solve those problems? The to me, I tell young lawyers on a Saturday morning, go in a room, turn on the lights, get a cup of coffee, have a pen and a legal notepad and talk about Who do you want to be one year from now, three years from now, five years from now? What are the issues you're going to be handling? What are the emerging issues that you want to get ahead of so that you can be there and corner that market before anyone else. And that's what I mean by investing in yourself, then I think the third thing I do is commit yourself to excellence and be the best legal problem solver you can be. And again, the best way to get project number two, in terms of business development is to do a great job on project number one, and there's no shortcut. And if you're not committing yourself to excellence, you're not going to be a great business developer. And then last but not least, but probably equally, if not more important is to always put yourself in your clients shoes, and to view problems that they have through their eyes and it's a very eye opening kind of focus in terms of how you conduct yourself as a lawyer how you pitch for Their business, how you craft those solutions and the things that you try to do to be a good partner to a client to get those projects, number two's. So those are kind of four things that I think they may be fundamentals, they may be simple, they may be intuitive or common sense. But continual focus on those sorts of four things, at least in my experience have paid very large dividends.
Steve Fretzin 15:23
Yeah, and I think that's, that's amazing. And I would also add that the way that I'm treating lawyers and seeing successful lawyers is a lot like someone who works with an athlete, okay, you need to have a plan or vision of how you're going to proceed forward for the year. And you have to look at best practices and processes, learning from mentors, learning, from coaches reading, studying, taking the time to put into to how you're going to make the year great. And then of course, learning from mistakes. If you're at a networking event, and you're not getting anything from it, or you're having coffee meetings regularly, and you're not getting anything from them, well, then maybe you need to look at, you know, you're not following a process or they're not having, there's not things that you're that you're improving on, it's going to end up just, you know, wasting more of your time. So I think that when you look at investing in yourself, I think reading mentorship, coaching, whatever it is, that's going to help you, you know, learn the things that are gaps in your game or gaps in your skill sets, I think you have to treat it, like an athlete would treat improving a sport or a chef would, you know, improve a dish.
Jerry Maatman 16:27
Well stated, you know, I think you're you're onto something there. And another way I would deal with it, if you begin to get to the next level of business development is how you deal with problems, either problems that beset a client or problem clients. And I think that people who are business developers excel at problem clients or clients with problems rather than to lose a client relationship because of that problem. And so what what I learned, and I think something that's held me in good stead and helped me to be a business developer, is how to deal with a difficult client and a difficult situation. In my instance, what I recall, was a brand new General Counsel, who identified and flagged a client service problem caused by another partner that had working on the file. And so I was looking at losing years of hard work and building that client and my investment in the client. And it was about to go down the drain. And the lesson, the valuable lesson I learned is that problems are inevitable. And change is inevitable. And what's important is how you react and respond to problems and deal with change. And I think that has to be a guiding principle of business development, because nothing is static, the world changes, clients change and their problems change. And human beings are not perfect. And there are always going to be situations that arise in a client relationship, where one person might view the work being done as problematic. And it's how you make amends and deal with that problem and resolve them and turn a negative into a positive that allows you to grow and sustain client relationships. And so that was a lesson that I learned as a younger partner that I have to deal with every day. And the way things are in 2020 are different than the way things were five years ago. And anyone who thinks they're going to be the same two years from now is not looking around the corner and planning for the future. So your mantra about thinking about what you're going to do over the short term over the long term and how you're going to get there that sort of personal planning. My mind is all important.
Steve Fretzin 18:49
So you mentioned change in the future. I mean, we've got things going on right now with the Coronavirus with with the political scene with the economy. And, you know, I'm not here to drive fear. But let's look at the realities of what's going on in the world. And, you know, the world can change on a dime at this stage. So there's going to be service attorneys, there's going to be rainmaking attorneys, there's going to be young attorneys, old attorneys. Is it a mistake for the majority of the legal profession and the people that are there practicing to not be thinking about business development right now?
Jerry Maatman 19:23
Well, if you're not thinking about it, someone else is stealing a march on you because your competitor is thinking about it. And I mean, I think about it every minute every day and I wake up every day about how am I going to develop business today and find that next big case. And what keeps me motivated is I think the biggest case, the biggest project in my career I've yet to find, and I've had some big ones. But I think that next big huge client relationship, that next problem that I'm going to solve and create more value for a company that's in my future and that's keeping me mode. evaded. And as you said, We live in a world of change. Social media has impacted clients in ways and in manners that impact their market share their law departments like never before. And being a lawyer who is looking around the corner, trying to forecast the future, thinking about ways they can be agile, nimble, and observers to clients in the future. Those are the lawyers that I think are going to get those client relationships that thrive in the future, those who are thinking about it and acting about it not sitting still. So I think business of omens all about an imperative, and about consistency and doing it on a daily basis.
Steve Fretzin 20:42
Right. And I think I think it's something that we need to look, I'm obviously an advocate whether people want to work with me, or they want to improve on their own, I don't have a preference, I just want it to happen, because it's, I saw what happened in 2008. And I know what can happen in the future. And there's people that are coming to me too late, you know, they're coming to me, and they're, you know, late 50s and 60s, saying, you know, I've got to figure this thing out. And you know, it should have been done in their 30s and 40s. So let me let me let me wrap things up here a little bit with segment I like to call and you mentioned this earlier, Jerry, they never taught me this in law school. So what is the thing that you wish they had taught you in law school, you know, about business development, marketing, branding, practice management that they currently are still not teaching?
Jerry Maatman 21:25
Well, I've taught at Northwestern as an adjunct professor for 30 years. And I teach the trial advocacy class there. And so I'm at the law school quite often. And I'm interacting with law students. And to me, what I didn't learn in law school, and what I still think is an effective in terms of what's being taught in law school, is the simple notion of how one instills confidence and others about hiring you to be their lawyer. And it's not so much about legal principles, as it is about people skills, and about exercising good old fashioned common sense and judgment. And it sounds trite, and it sounds basic. But that's kind of what it boils down to is how can a lawyer, convince a client that I am the person you ought to hire, and make you look good in front of your boss, your CEO, your board of directors, as the person that you've selected to handle this project or solve your problem? That's something that's not taught in law school. And that I think, is a common denominator among good business developers and rainmakers in terms of that ability in a short period of time and a one minute elevator speech, to be able to instill that confidence in others about their judgment, their people skills and their ability to instill competence.
Steve Fretzin 22:53
Well, Jerry, that's, that's right on the money. And there's clearly a reason that you've been so successful at this, you know, thinking about it every day, over servicing clients, and just really thinking about the future, kind of in wrapping up, is there anything that you'd like to promote, and certainly share, you know, your firm information as well?
Jerry Maatman 23:11
Well, I love to teach. And I love to mentor younger lawyers. And I get excited when I see them get excited about business development. And I think that it takes time, it takes some scar tissue to learn how to do it. But the one thing that I've learned and what I would advocate to anyone who's interested in promoting and enhancing their business development skills, is the notion that from small acorns, big oak trees grow, and that you can start small, but if you apply yourself and do it every day, and use fundamental sound principles for business development, it's gonna work. So it's not luck. It's hard work. And it's application, but it's consistent application and investment in yourself to make that happen over time.
Steve Fretzin 24:05
Really fantastic. So again, just want to thank you for being my guest today. just terrific. Hey, everyone, I want to thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's show, and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized and a skilled Rainmaker, you're interested in checking out my website, it's fretzin.com. Also, I've got three books on legal business development all available on Amazon. Check them out, Jerry, thanks again.
Narrator 24:34
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.