In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jeremy Schneider discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"I'm not just meeting people haphazardly, I'm focusing on the people who are good strategic partners for me, and who I can be good strategic partners for, as well." — Jeremy Schneider
Connect with Jeremy Schneider:
Email: Jeremy.Schneider@JacksonLewis.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jsschneider
Twitter: twitter.com/jer_schneid
Website: JacksonLewis.com
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jeremy Schneider 0:00
When you think about "no" as really the second best possible answer, it actually makes it okay. I remember getting a firm no and and being like, okay, I feel fine about this and I'm ready to move on and put my time elsewhere where I think, you know, it might be, it's certainly going to be more valuable for those folks that are out there that are not either already helping or want to help.
Narrator 0:28
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:50
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, the show that helps attorneys to kick some butt. Anyway, I hope everybody's doing well today. You know, just an interesting twist. Today, I've got a friend of mine and a client of mine, Jeremy Schneider. He's a principal at Jackson Lewis. And we're just going to talk a little bit about business development and how he came around. And we're working together currently. And so maybe he'll share some some insights to what is going on behind the scenes at a in a Fretzin class or a Fretzin program. Jeremy, how you doing?
Jeremy Schneider 1:21
I'm doing well looking forward to letting everybody know about the nuclear launch codes
Steve Fretzin 1:26
You're gonna share that share the details of the codes. That's it. Okay. Well, that's all right. I just I just want to say for the record, you know, as long as his This interview is better than Neil Dishman will be fine.
Jeremy Schneider 1:36
I'm very confident that I can do better than both Neil Dishman and Brian Weinthal Oh,
Steve Fretzin 1:42
Wow, the gauntlet has been thrown down. So now now we're gonna get all kinds of rude comments on social media from them. But okay, let's let's, let's play that out and see what happens. I think I think you might be onto something here. So do me a favor and give a little background on, you know, kind of your your legal background, and then also kind of where you are with the firm. And from there.
Jeremy Schneider 2:01
Right. So I'm a labor and employment lawyer with Jackson Lewis, the firm is a national labor and employment firm, we really do anything having to do with the workplace. And for my part, I'm a labor and employment litigator, I help my clients manage the risk associated with their employees. And when disputes inevitably arise, I defend them and litigation and arbitration and before administrative agencies. I've been practicing for about 10 years now. Started off on the plaintiff side, when I first started practicing, and then moved to another kind of an law 100 firm for a year or two. And then made the move to Jackson Lewis, when I realized I really wanted to focus on labor and employment and have access to and kind of a national reach for my clients, and servicing them for anything having to do with employment law.
Steve Fretzin 2:58
Yeah, we're so you know, not untraditional or traditional, I think is a pretty standard sort of, you know, play by play of what, you know, kind of what lawyers go through in their first 10 years and try to figure out like, where their home should be, right.
Jeremy Schneider 3:11
Yeah, you know, I sort of I went to law school during one of the worst times to go to law school. So it was a, just, you know, the great recession was in full swing. And there weren't a lot of jobs out there. And a mentor of mine said to me, you know, you might want to just try to focus on something, as opposed to just be wanting to come out of law school and be a litigator. And I also went to school at George Washington University Law School at night, while working full time during the day. And so I had an opportunity to work full time at a plaintiff side labor and employment firm here in Washington, DC. And I sort of just fell in love with it with the work and realized that I wanted to represent management as opposed to employees for a whole host of reasons. And then made, you know, kind of a couple moves after that, to get to where I am right now, which I think is, you know, a really great place for clients to get labor and employment, legal services.
Steve Fretzin 4:15
And let's let's flip it a little bit to you know, there's there's finding your home at a law firm and obviously building up your skills as a lawyer, but at what point did you sort of come to the realization that business development was important and important to you?
Jeremy Schneider 4:30
So I can remember, in my third year practicing, I can remember being at a firm and looking around and seeing sort of, there's four or five people in this office of 40 to 50. lawyers who, whose names are on all the bills and who are the people who are generating all the work. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, these these folks really have it, haven't good they they are kind of not doing every bit of work that's coming out of the office. But they're at the same time. They're, they're managing clients managing relationships, and helping young lawyers sort of develop in their craft. And I, I like that piece of it. I like the relationship management piece of practicing law. Of course, I love to litigate them. I love representing my clients, I love doing legal work, and the labor and employment work that I do I particularly passionate about, what I realize is that the folks who I admired where I was they were, they were people, managers, they love to manage relationships. And that was something I wanted for myself.
Steve Fretzin 5:36
Got it, got it. And you connected the dots between that and I have to actually go out and get my own clients.
Jeremy Schneider 5:42
Yeah, I mean, there were there were other lawyers that I was working with, that had been practicing for 1012 years, and they were still associates, they hadn't advanced. And they didn't have, you know, at any significant book of business to speak of. And I, you know, I realized pretty quickly that this is the path to sort of job security and personal fulfillment in your career. And, of course, financial, you know, benefits associated with working in a large law firm, all come about from having a book of business.
Steve Fretzin 6:16
Because there are a lot of bigger firms like yours, where it's really not emphasized to go out and they want the associates to do the work they want them to, to sort of, you know, build a tremendous amount of hours, and they're not really looking for them to grow their own books, because they're there, they want to keep them busy with their stuff. So how do attorneys that, that are in that particular, you know, hamster on a wheel type of thing? Get out of it? How did you get out of it? or How did you get away from that?
Jeremy Schneider 6:48
So I got out of it, by looking for an opportunity to work somewhere where that type of attorney development was valued, Jackson, Lewis said, is particularly entrepreneurial, especially among other like labor and employment law firms, I think we do a very, very good job of encouraging associates to develop business, and then giving them the tools to try to do that. You know, I can remember coming over to Jackson Lewis, and immediately the partners who I worked with, were saying, Okay, well, who are your contacts, and if you want to start taking them out to lunch, please, you have the firm credit card, use it, the firm will pay if you're, if you're really working at developing business, we are, we are happy to encourage that for you. And so I was very fortunate to come into that type of situation, but a lot of associates are not in that situation. There are law firms where, you know, associates are looked at as pillars. And they aren't sort of shepherded along in the other aspects of law firm life and law firm success that, you know, I, that I fortunately was able to find a Jackson Lewis. And so what I now do what Jackson Lewis says, try to help my colleagues, with people who I work with the associates who I work with, to do the same thing that I did.
Steve Fretzin 8:09
So prior to meeting me and working with me, and we're currently still engaged together, but what were some of the things you that you that you had been doing to develop business? How did you get your book belt.
Jeremy Schneider 8:23
So, you know, I worked really hard at it. Not necessarily super smart at it, but really put a lot of time into cultivating relationships, going to networking events, meeting people for lunch, trying to sell existing clients on additional services that our firm offers. And sort of what ended up happening for me in the last two to three years is I realized that I was starting to develop a fairly sizable book of business. But I was spending way more time than I thought was necessary in developing, continuing to develop the book of business. And so that was part of the reason why I called you because I felt like I was just pouring time into it, as opposed to pouring, you know, having a system in place or focusing on the things that really do lead to additional opportunities.
Steve Fretzin 9:18
And I think, going back to Neil Dishman for a minute, since we're since we're picking on him today, he used to call it sheer force of effort, I believe was what his It was about himself, not about you, but that's what it sounds like you are kind of on that same platform of, you know, just just outwork everybody and put as many hours into it as you possibly can to get the kind of result that you're hoping for. And so let's transition the conversation a little bit. So you called me up, we got together I think we isolated a number of, of particular challenges or things that maybe weren't working as efficiently as possible. And then we started to engage so what maybe you could share what your experiences were kind of early on working with me
Jeremy Schneider 10:00
So the very first thing that I thought was and has been extremely helpful for me is developing a very tight and focused business development plan. So you and I sat down in the first week or two that we were working together, and we sort of went through, okay, what are the two or three things that you've seen that have actually led to business coming in the door, and were new engagements, right or, or new matters coming from your existing clients. And we sort of honed that down into really three, three strategies and a number of tactics underneath each of those strategies that I could focus my time on those things, as opposed to doing things that were sort of haphazard and random, which is what I felt like I was doing before that.
Steve Fretzin 10:50
Yeah, and I think that the key thing that we focused on at the time was was, again, low hanging fruit. So there's 100, things that you could go and do. But there's probably two or three that are the most efficient and, and results driven activities to engage in. And so we try to figure those out early on, and then write out those tactics, write out those actionable things, so that you have clear guidance and direction on how you're going to go after those. And again, even at that point early on, it's not perfect, it's something that might need, and has been changed and altered and transitioned a little bit here and there to just kind of put a finer point on it.
Jeremy Schneider 11:32
No, I think that's absolutely right. Steve, I think, you know, for me, focusing on for example, developing a number of strategic partners, people who I would continue to develop a really close relationship with, so that I'm in a good position with them to get referrals, or, and conversely, and this is a big part of what I've always done, and I continue to do, and I think it's crucial for young lawyers or listing wares to do is to also give referrals to other people, you know, I sort of like being a person who is able to make connections for people and but what I hadn't been doing previously was sort of focusing in on Okay, who were the types of people who are in a position to refer me work, and then what are the ways that I can help them by introducing them to other people as well, that, in particular has been particularly helpful for me, I mean, it is really limited the number of time I've spent, you know, and I'm doing air quotes here, as we're sitting here. I see them and right, and, you know, I'm not networking, like I used to be going to tons of events. And of course, this is the covid 19 pandemic, as well. So a lot of this is, you know, out the window right now, but, you know, I'm not just meeting people haphazardly, I'm focusing on the people who I think, you know, who are good strategic partners, for me, and who I can be good strategic partners for, as well.
Steve Fretzin 12:58
And I think that's an important point is that, that once someone has a plan, or you have a plan, I mean, I have a plan, we all need to have some kind of plan that sort of, you know, says, Hey, I want to just wing it and, and sort of hope for the best I need to I need to focus and target and, and all that. And then once we have that, it gets back into process, right? The processes that we're working on, there's a process for how do I find a strategic partner? How do I help somebody? How do I get them to reciprocate? And and how do we make sure that if they're going to make a quality introduction, how do we make that as sticky as possible, so it doesn't just sort of, you know, float under the bridge and never to be seen again. So these are the kinds of things that we work on. And I think you've been a very good student of execution on that, which is really where we're at all it all, you know, the rubber hits the road?
Jeremy Schneider 13:46
What was what I think I mean, I thank you for thinking I'm a good student. I know sometimes I know, you are,
Steve Fretzin 13:52
I don't think you are.
Jeremy Schneider 13:54
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, when I don't send you my list of things that I've done in the last week, on a pretty regular basis, I don't feel so great about my being a student. But that doesn't mean I'm not doing it. I mean, that's what I what I am doing. And I think this is this is certainly from the benefit of having worked with you is I'm not leaving opportunities out just to die on the vine, oftentimes what would happen is, you know, I meet with somebody, I would be the one who was following up with them, I would spend a significant amount of time sort of pushing people along or nudging them along without really getting anything, you know, going actually engagement right. And so, know, one thing that we've worked on together, and I think it's going to carry me forward for the rest of my career is how do you set up those situations to bear fruit? You know, we meet with somebody and you discuss what they've got going on, and you sort of talk with them about what their needs might be. And then how do you take that and then turn that into an engagement. Right without just, you know, randomly emailing a person once a month for a year and nothing comes back, right. And so that's one aspect of your strategies is sort of how to how to tee somebody up in the right way how to say, Okay, let's, let's talk about next steps and get commitment from a person to have another conversation where we're talking more concrete about what's going to happen next. That is something that's totally changed for me.
Steve Fretzin 15:27
Yeah. And that's really important, because that goes back to, you know, the effort and the time and you know, lawyers, you know, time is money. So, you know, every hour that spent doing business development is an hour that isn't being billed. And the more efficient you can be, the better. And the point that Jeremy's making that I'll just kind of double back on is, some of the things that we work on together is, is just trying to identify the truth, trying to identify, Does someone have needs, how deep that rabbit hole goes? and How serious are they about proceeding forward and actually changing lawyers changing law firms and taking action on a problem versus just kind of letting it sit or, or just giving it lip service? And then how much time do we have to chase after that person or that opportunity to close it when they're just kind of blowing us off again, and again, and again? So one of the things that we worked on together was really about how do we move someone to a yes, and get a next step and get them to commit to those things? Or do we identify that maybe this is, you know, a no, and we can just move it that way? Or how do we get someone who is not being responsive to respond, and, and to to kind of like, finally get over the finish line, because we're taking some control back of that, of that scenario. So, Jeremy, I think you've done a really good job of taking the content that I provide and then executing on the field and making it happen.
Jeremy Schneider 16:49
Well, I'll just, I'll just say, mentally, it's helped me significantly like I just give you an example, from the last couple weeks, I had been working on sort of what I consider to be a fairly large potential client for the last couple years. And I had worked with them and previously and and a mother had another firm and kept in touch with people who were there, again, sort of sporadically, but no recently moved to a firm No, like, I sort of got to a point where I push them in the right direction, we got down to making a commitment. And but it turned out to be a no. And whereas previously, I think I might have been really frustrated and really upset about, you know, nobody likes to be rejected, right? I mean, it's like being asked to the prom and being rejected. Nobody wants that. Right? That that's, that's awful. But when you think about No, as really the second best possible answer, it actually makes it okay, I remember getting a firm No, and, and being like, okay, I feel fine about this, and I'm ready to move on and put my time elsewhere where I think, you know, might be, it's certainly going to be more valuable for those folks that are out there that are, you know, I'm either already helping or want to help you.
Steve Fretzin 18:07
If you if you start to add up, you know, any any example that you might pull out of the air of someone that you met, you thought there was business there, you chased after them, you met again, you chased after them put together proposal chased after them again, and again and again, and you got, you know, 10, 20, 30, 50 hours invested, right in that opportunity over possibly years. And what if you had been able to identify in the first hour of a meeting, for example, that they weren't a fit and why, and actually identified and uncovered the truth, I had them actually verbally tell you, you know, reasoning behind why they're not going to leave their firm or reasoning behind why they wanted, they were just using you for free advice. And that's really it. I mean, that that 50 hours, and oh, not to mention all that emotional frustration that you have, you know, it doesn't exist, you take the emotion out of it, and you put logic into it. And it's just an easier way to do business development, because we're all emotional beings. And we need to, you know, if you know, something is good or bad, that's always better than not knowing and wondering and hoping. Right? It's like, I'd rather know I have an illness than not feel well and wonder if I have an illness, right? It's always better just to know, what's what's real. And I think that's what what we're talking about here.
Jeremy Schneider 19:25
Like, I agree with that completely, I think I think it's sort of liberating to know that, okay, I don't you don't need to put the time in. And then you've got all this other time that you can dedicate where it's, it's going to lead to something.
Steve Fretzin 19:38
Yeah. So as it relates to to what's next for you. I mean, you you've come up the ranks very quickly at your firm by building that book and being a great lawyer. And we're you know, what's next, what do you see happening in the next couple of years as far as you know your trajectory?
Jeremy Schneider 19:54
So for me it's been a it's been a pretty quick rise although you know, I've been a Jackson those Now for six years in April, it'll be it's right. Right before my second daughter's birthday is I remember my Jackson Lewis anniversary. And I started off with nothing. I think my first year that I was at Jackson Lewis, I think I originated $1,000 in business or something astonishingly low. But in the last five or six years, it's grown to a considerable amount of amount of business. And, you know, I'm looking really for the next couple of years to meet at least maintain that level that I'm at right now, if not, continue to grow it. And I think the way that, you know, the program that we worked on together is going to help me there is to really focus on the things that are actually leading to additional business as opposed to just spinning my wheels on things that might not get there. Yeah. And that, that piece of it, for me is extremely helpful. And I and the client management aspect of what we do, and the developing relationship aspect of what where's that, you know, where's that small firms and large firms do is the stuff that I find the most satisfaction. And so I'm looking forward to that. And I'm just looking forward to having real meaningful relationships with my clients and continuing to have that.
Steve Fretzin 21:16
Yeah, I think for attorneys that are, you know, at your level, and continuing continuing that trajectory upward, it's, it's about bringing in the work and handing it off right starting to feed the troops more than you already are. And having a team of people under you that support the clients that you're bringing in because again, not everybody is is built or cut out to be a Rainmaker to be a business developer, however, people that are ambitious and interested in in want to go after it. Now they add a tremendous amount of value for not only themselves, but also for the firm. So is that is that a part of it too? Just just continuing to build and grow and help feed the troops?
Jeremy Schneider 21:55
That's absolutely right, Steve. So, you know, and I'll plug Jackson Lewis again, because I, I think that we're unique in this way, we have a model that really encourages people to share, work, and to end to end to collaborate with their colleagues in order to give clients the best possible service. And we don't really fight over origination, we don't really fight over who gets credit at the end of the year for doing X, Y, and Z work for Acme Corp or whoever, right? We, we really do try to approach our client service with a collaborative team mind team minded approach. And, of course, as a practical reality, I mean, I can only Bill 2000 hours a year, or, I mean, I could build more, but I would claw my eyes out. Right. And, you know, the idea is to keep yourself busy and keep others busy. And, you know, for young lawyers, again, at our firm, I think this is particularly true for young lawyers at our firm who get that opportunity to have really close client contact. And they're working with partners who want them to develop their own practice, handing off work to an associate, who can, who can help me maintain the relationship with the client and help grow the relationship with the client is, is fantastic. I mean, I want my clients to be able to call three, four or five people in our firm to get the right answer. I'm, I'm thrilled about that, you know, it's not, it's, I get a lot of satisfaction out of introducing a client to another lawyer and the client coming back to me and saying, I love that lawyer, I would go have a drink with them. Or I would, you know, we went to mediation together. And we had dinner we had such a great time. I mean, that's like, that's where it's at. for me.
Steve Fretzin 23:42
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's it's it's a lot of fun being in the relationship business, right. I mean, there's one thing about cranking out work. And that again, that's, that's fine for some people. And I think for people like you and I, you know, we love and we get excited about the relationships, we get excited about solving problems and being on the front line. And then again, that's you know, that's that's what makes a thing things interesting if I was not offered, but I was kind of, you know, tangentially asked what I go in house with, with a big firm and do coaching in house and I just thought about that for a minute when Absolutely not. And the reason I say that because I think I could have made a lot of money if I had said yes, it was really because of the relationships I like the idea of not only helping my clients coaching and training and all that, but I love meeting new people and I like trying to meet people solve problems, try to walk them through the process of deciding whether or not I'm a good fit for them and vice versa. And that would all be out the window if I just you know spent my entire day you know, 10 hours a day coaching lawyers in a room. That sounds that sounds to me like a place I go to die. So they can that's that's where the action is. That's where you know, the relationships are what what I think makes a career Exciting, it makes a really a career sustainable, because the reality is, you know, is if you don't have the relationships, if you don't have your own clients, we go back to this, but, you know, then you're really at the whim of the next recession or at layoffs or at, you know, what other lawyers need you to do for their clients. And so you got to kind of, you know, pick your pick your poison, but I think I think that for people like you and I and other ambitious attorneys, you know, it's really about getting out there and meeting new people and, and bringing in the business.
Jeremy Schneider 25:31
I agree with that. You know, I've had a mentor at my firm at our firm who used to vacation with his clients. Can you imagine that?
Steve Fretzin 25:39
I mean, are you inviting me? Because that's what it sounds like.
Jeremy Schneider 25:41
I mean, that sounds like I know, I will I know that you and your son love to fish. I think that would be so cool to go, like ice fishing, for example. Yeah. ever done that, I find that I think that'd be really fun, right? But I've client or this mentor of mine, who who saw his clients were some of his best friends. Yeah, he used to travel over the world with them. And then his wife would come with their spouses, they would they would, because they knew each other's kids, the kids were friends. I mean, I'm not sure whether that hasn't happened for me yet. But if it did, that would be a real pleasure. I mean, I just, I can't imagine a better situation.
Steve Fretzin 26:14
I know. But I just wonder if that's harder to do these days than in the past, like my father, you know, retired attorney. And, you know, people have heard me talk about my dad on the show many times. And, you know, he, you know, he was doing, you know, eulogies for his clients who passed and stuff like that, like, really, you know, consistently airy type, you know, relationships, friendships, deep relationships, and friendships with his clients. And not all of them. But But you know, more than than then then some. And I just wonder if that's harder today, then, obviously, today, it's very hard. But right now, but generally speaking, I'm not I'm not hearing a lot of stories about people taking trips with clients or, you know, it's more about like ballgames used to happen or lunches happen, and, you know, that type of thing. But, but i think i think that's, that's something missing, maybe is those those really in depth relationships that people you know, used to have? And maybe still have? I just, I don't hear about that too often. Actually.
Jeremy Schneider 27:08
You know, it, maybe it depends on where you cultivate the relationships. You know, I have people who I've met through our church, for example, who I'm I see regularly are our kids or our kids or friends, and they're small business owners. That's probably where you have the opportunity to develop that type of close personal relationship, if you're seeing them outside of the work context anyway. Right? Certainly, right now, with the pandemic, that's probably impossible. But, you know, maybe that's where it is. And if you're, if these are the people who you would hang out with socially, working with them seems like a natural next step, and one that would make it very pleasurable.
Steve Fretzin 27:47
Well, and it's interesting, just in kind of our, I guess, maybe a final topic, since it's just sort of rolled into it, you know, people a lot of attorneys find themselves in, in the friendzone, you know, and I've got the the air quotes to write the friendzone. So they've got a GC, that's a very close friend, they've got a neighbor who's a GC, they've got these people in their lives that are power players in, in who gets business and they're so concerned with the friendship and hurting the friendship, they never talk business, they never bring it up. They never make the ask, what's your thought about that? Or experience with that, that friendzone issue,
Jeremy Schneider 28:24
That one client who I was friends with our kids, our sons are friends. And I remember just saying to him one day, why aren't we working together? Like, we're just hanging out and having a good time? Like, why am I not helping you with some employment issue? And then he was just like, yeah, you know, I don't know what. Yeah, and it was, I thought that was, I don't, I don't know, I thought that was a decent way of kind of framing it, but I get it, you know, I totally get it. You don't want to mess up a relationship by mixing business and personal lives I, I completely get that. But if you have people who you know, need what you've got, and that you can add some value for them, why not just approach it in a kind of a really informal way, where you another way you can start it off with it might be like, Hey, you know, I saw this article that's relevant to what, you know what you do. And I've started I just thought of you. And we, we do that we handle issues like this all the time. And if you ever want to chat with me about it, I'm happy to do it.
Steve Fretzin 29:27
Yeah, I think if you're if you're excellent at what you do, and you've got a strong relationship with somebody, those are kind of the two most important elements of why you might want to work together. And so I think it might just be a matter of wordsmithing a particular approach whether you were you know, you were very direct which but you did it in such a fun friendly way that you know, anyone that you have a relationship with would be like yeah, or they might have a good reason why not to you know, I I'd love to Jeremy but I've got a 10 year relationship with one of my best friends from college and, and he does amazing work and it's he saved us did save the day, 10 times a year? Well, that's a very different situation, then, you know, yeah, we pay a lawyer or law firm, you know, XYZ to, you know, to do stuff for us, it's all transactional, it'd be a lot more fun, it'd be great to work with someone I already like and trust. It's more than just a transaction. So I think, you know, maybe it's a series of questions that you asked to identify that, that opportunity or that opening or just a direct approach, like you had, but I, you know, I do I do think it's, it's, it's a great way to get business, if you can, if you can figure out an angle or come up with the right type of gumption to make that form of an ask. And, you know, I think people are concerned that it might that might blow up. Well, I don't think I don't, you know, like, if they say, no, then they say no, and you move on, you keep the friendship, but at least then you're not wondering or hoping or just, you know, thinking like, Why is this not happening? And why aren't they coming to me with this with with proactively to hire me, you know, that people don't do that they don't know, they don't know where to tread.
Jeremy Schneider 30:57
Now, they don't. And I think another part of this too, is I think a lot of lawyers have a sort of a crippling fear of rejection. And we're sensitive, we're snow flaky, you know. And, you know, again, this is my wife, and I joke about this all the time. This is like a, I think a product of when I went to law school, I mean, I applied to so many law firms for jobs and got rejected by so many law firms, and just kind of the constant state of rejection. And my first year too, during law school just made me a little bit, okay with being rejected. And so I don't really have that big of an issue, just asking somebody, hey, you know, it'd be great if we work together sometime, you know, we're, we're asking it in a kind of a direct way. Because, yeah, if they say no, they say no. I mean, that's, that's no big deal.
Steve Fretzin 31:48
Yeah. And if you take you take the personal side out of it, and realize that, you know, people make decisions for different reasons that may have nothing to do with you. That that might help. But yeah, it's interesting. So hopefully, people are listening in a, they're either getting some good ideas from this conversation, or at least learning a little bit more about what I'm doing every day, and how I'm working with people like Jeremy and, you know, I cherish the relationship that you and I have, but also, with, with, you know, the class that you're in the group that you're in, I mean, these are, these are some of the best people in the world. I mean, there isn't one person that we work with together that you'd want to, you'd want to kick to the curb. I mean, they're all terrific. And that makes my life just so wonderful. So I appreciate that. You're that you're a part of it.
Jeremy Schneider 32:31
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, and wouldn't you want to, I mean, you craft it the right way, right, you pick people who you want to work with, based on how you're going to get along with them, you're going to spend a lot of time with them. I think lawyers should do that, too. Right? Pick and pick people who you want to work with, and you're going to enjoy spending a lot of time with and that's a real good recipe for success
Steve Fretzin 32:49
And a recipe for being happy, quite frankly, I mean, I I don't really work with law firms anymore. And the reason is, is because they loved giving me their problem children and they love giving me their snowflakes, and they gave me you know, and they're they're all built differently, they all have different levels of of ambition and interest and motivation. And you know that that game is over. And now it's it's, you know, it's been great just just making a mutual decision with someone that we're a good fit that we want to partner and we want to achieve something together and then going after it. And that's just a much it's just a much nicer way for me to run my business and and work with the right people, you know, the right way. So, anyway, Jeremy, Listen, man, thank you so much any if anybody wants to get in touch with you, because they want to work at your firm or they want to network with you, or they want to ask you questions, what's the best way for them to get in touch?
Jeremy Schneider 33:39
Two ways. Email is always good. Jeremy.Schneider@jacksonlewis.com. And then of course, LinkedIn, I'm very active LinkedIn user share a lot of content from the firm. So there's a lot of value out there for stuff that the firm puts out that, you know, I think our clients are helpful with and I answer all messages on LinkedIn.
Steve Fretzin 33:57
Awesome. Well, thanks again. And I'll see you in class soon. All right, everybody in thanks for taking some time to spend with Jeremy and I today and the hope is that you got some good takeaways and ideas and work through some things. And you know that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody and be safe.
Narrator 34:24
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.