In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jennifer Bennett discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Women shouldn't be afraid to take the time management bull by the horns and take the time they need to do the things they need to do outside the office. Just put it on your calendar, block it off, be confident, and handle your day the way you need to do it." — Jennifer Bennett
Connect with Jennifer Bennett:
Website: KBFSearch.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jenniferbennett2
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jennifer Bennett 0:00
The other thing is, you know, women looking to make a move. It's just, you know, asking those questions of a firm that you're thinking about, you know, and really asking to talk to women and leadership or you know, really women at all levels and a firm and hear about their experience and hear how it's done for them.
Narrator 0:20
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:43
Hey, everybody, how's it going? Steve Fretzin here with be that lawyer. I am super excited to do another terrific episode of my podcast for you. And today's guest is job matchmaker and law firm growth strategist, Jennifer Bennett with KBF search. Jennifer, how's it going?
Jennifer Bennett 1:00
It's goning well, how are you doing, Steve?
Steve Fretzin 1:02
I'm doing okay. Other than you know, messing up the title of your of your, your introduction, but other than that, I'm doing great. So I don't know, I think I think I had a heavy lunch. And now I've got this, you know, I gotta I gotta pick up my energy for you. You know, make sure
Jennifer Bennett 1:15
Well, I might I might have overly complicated it a bit. I think the easier thing to say is I'm a legal recruiter. People know what that means. But yeah,
Steve Fretzin 1:24
I think the people listening know what that means. But would you do me a favor and be so kind is to go back and give a little bio, give a little history, and what it means to be a legal recruiter today.
Jennifer Bennett 1:34
Absolutely. So I have been recruiting lawyers for the last 20 years or so until earlier this year, I had spent the previous 20 years or so inside and law 100 firms recruiting from that side. So I started off doing on campus recruiting and running summer programs, and then sort of worked my way up and eventually really started to focus on partner recruiting. So my most recent role with the firm was a national role where I spent all of my time recruiting partners groups, we opened an office during my time there and, you know, did some work that culminated in a merger at the beginning of this year. So I decided to go to the lot of people make this joke, go to the dark side, the search firm agency side, this year, I wanted to have the opportunity to work with, you know, a bunch of firms that I really believe in. And so I launched my business this year with with my business partner, Kelly. So we were here in Northern California were a boutique, women owned firm. And we we work mostly with law firms, although we do some in house work as well, but partner level lawyers, and we move individuals and groups and, and I make the match.
Steve Fretzin 2:49
Terrific. Terrific. And I'm sure you know, you're kind of seeing the inside or under the hood, if you will of what's going on right now in the legal recruiting space during COVID. Can you can you share a little bit of work but what you're seeing right now?
Jennifer Bennett 3:02
Sure. I mean, I think that the overall theme is there's just a lot of anxiety all around right now. You know, firms are hiring, you know, you can see that there's been movement, both on the partner and associate level, there's certainly been a lot of activity to, you know, you know, a lot of the firms, especially big law firms have been letting people go or cutting salaries. And so there's some of that happening. But I think, overall, firms are still moving forward, lawyers are busy. And you know, they they need to make additions. And so I think the big twist has been just that everybody is feeling very anxious candidates, even if they know that they probably shouldn't make a move or feeling. You know, can I really add a job change one more thing onto my plate into this crazy year, that is 2020, and all the other uncertainty and I think firms really want to move forward and advance their strategic goals. But feel that anxiety too, because none of us really knows what's coming, we can guess. But we don't know. And so, you know, things are moving. Sometimes they're moving a little more slowly. But that's kind of been the theme.
Steve Fretzin 4:08
In generally speaking or I mean, you're working with different size firms. But are you seeing them sort of put things on hold for a little while longer? Or are they are they looking to acquire while the market seems to be flush?
Jennifer Bennett 4:20
That's a great question. And I think there's there's a bit of both of that going on. I think some firms definitely see the opportunity. I if I had to, you know, make a general rule, I'd say the smaller firms are being a little bit more aggressive, because they they see that they may have access to some talent that they might not normally, but and, you know, I think there's other firms that are are moving a little bit more slowly. And, you know, I guess the other generalization I would make is that partner recruiting hasn't really slowed down all that much. But on the associate side is where you you really saw things grind to a halt earlier this year and now are starting to pick back up again, but...
Steve Fretzin 4:59
Gotcha, gotcha. And so on the lawyer side, not the firm side, but the individual lawyers, what should they be focusing on right now to not only be successful in their practice, but also to, you know, if they if they are interested in making a move or or that sort of being forced upon them?
Jennifer Bennett 5:15
Yeah, well, I mean, I think certain rules sort of always apply here. But I think self sufficiency is more important than it's ever been. I mean, most firms, when they're looking for partners, especially are are hoping and expecting these folks to bring business with them on a move, and that certainly hasn't changed. So I think, you know, candidates looking to make a move should just be sure, you know, or do all that they can to shore up those relationships, and really have confidence in that when they're having those conversations and looking to make that move. And obviously, it's always important to ask questions about a firm's strategic plan, their financial stability, sort of how they manage through tough times. And this is, this is part of what, what I like to think I bring to the table, having been inside firms is really understanding how different firms are structured and how important, you know, sort of what's under the hood, as you as you said earlier, is so important. And it can be hard to decipher, as a candidate, sometimes a lot of firms, especially the bigger they get, you know, a lot the same from the outside. So that's part of what I what I help candidates with is really kind of digging in a little bit with on the finances on culture, you know, on the way firms work, how they collaborate, how partners collaborate, to build business,
Steve Fretzin 6:34
and all that good stuff. You know, and clearly, you know, my my focus is, you know, is on helping lawyers grow their books of business, and we talked about that self sufficiency. You know, it's just amazes me that lawyers haven't, you know, many lawyers haven't figured out how important that is not only for the inevitable, you know, possibility that they may have to move or things may change at their firm, and they have to kind of go somewhere else or to just have job security. So are you I mean, are you seeing a lot of attorneys coming to you that maybe don't have the book that allows them to be portable? And then that's, that's something you have to sort of, kind of say, Sorry, but that's kind of what the markets looking for right now.
Jennifer Bennett 7:17
Absolutely. I mean, I think now more than ever, you know, it used to be that there would be firms, you could always find firms who were looking to add, you know, even partner level folks with certain subject matter expertise. And, you know, oftentimes firms would be okay, with bringing people over who didn't have business, I just don't see that as a real viable option right now. I mean, maybe here and there. So I think you're right, that it's just absolutely critical. And, you know, you had a prior podcast guest. So I think put it really well, when he said, you know, the only way to really have absolute control over your career as a lawyer is to have is to have a book of business and have client relationship, because that will really enable you to write your own ticket and a lot of ways and you then you're just not at the mercy of what a firm is looking for what they can offer, how they can help you.
Steve Fretzin 8:10
But it still amazes me that I mean, I think it's like, I mean, I can make up a stat, but it seems like maybe 10% are really understanding that and the others are just kind of hiding under their desks, you know, hoping that that doesn't ever occur. And it always it always, you know, flusters me that that's the case. But I think, again, sometimes it takes a recession, or takes a pandemic, or zombie apocalypse, or something, or fires burning in California and the seas rising in the south, to get to get people to realize that look, you know, this is you got one shot at making things work as an entrepreneur or as a, as a lawyer, you know, providing services. And so you've got to step up and look at, you know, the sales component, if you know, if you're okay, using that term, I think I am, that that's a part of part of practicing the law.
Jennifer Bennett 8:59
Yep. And I think, you know, unfortunately, for a lot of lawyers coming up through the ranks, it's just these concepts are really scary to them, which is why I think what you do is so great, because, you know, it doesn't have to be at all. In fact, it can be quite fun to leverage relationships that, you know, you make into into business. And I think a lot of, you know, lawyers are sort of under confident and their ability to do that work, and then you don't want to move to bring that with them. And I think they shouldn't be it's a lot of it is mindset. And you know, certainly in this market, if if you're going to move from firm to firm, as a partner, you're going to be asked you know, who not just how much business do you think you can move but who are your clients and how deep are your relationships, firms are getting much more savvy about asking these questions and really digging in so candidates need to be prepared.
Steve Fretzin 9:52
Yeah, no doubt, I think I don't know if it was Tony Robbins or it was some other player in the game who who came up with with an acronym for Fear, I think it's false evidence appearing real. And I think that's a totally made up thing. But anyway, it's interesting. And it kind of rings true that a lot of the fear, as you mentioned is is, you know, lack of knowledge about how to do something, it'd be the equivalent of me walking into a courtroom without any real training, expecting to, you know, talk with a judge and a jury. And, you know, at that point, I turned into my cousin Vinnie, and you know, these two youths in the whole thing, when in reality, if I had just gone to law school and been trained by some of the top players, you know, I wouldn't have as big a problem. So it is a learnable skill, and it is something that you don't have to be afraid of, if you can get, you know, proper education, just like in any any area of, you know, law or learning music or learning to be a chef, it's all the same thing. So..
Jennifer Bennett 10:43
Absolutely.
Steve Fretzin 10:44
So let's transition if you wouldn't mind to women, because I really, I really feel like this is an area that we can we could dive into. And I think you could really shed some light. I mean, how are women in law today getting ahead or getting a seat at the table? Maybe versus in the past?
Jennifer Bennett 10:59
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think a lot of it has been a natural progression, as you know, more women have become lawyers and have have worked their way through the up through the ranks. But firms have really been putting a lot of effort, you know, over the last decade, maybe more into really diversifying the ranks of their partnership, you know, really taking proactive steps to recruit and advance women becoming more flexible in the ways that, you know, all of their lawyers, not just women can move up through the ranks and become partners. I absolutely think you know, what's going on in the world this year with COVID. While certainly it's disruptive and scary, and there's a lot of things that are unpleasant about it, it's been really interesting to watch law firms, you know, how they had to change and adapt with, with the flexibility factor in the way that people can work, whether it's working remotely or working in different ways. And, and I hope that some of that flexibility stays, because I think that that will, that will really help to advance, you know, work to work to advance women parents, you know, anybody who has, you know, sort of things outside of the office that are pressuring them. So, yeah, I mean, I think you just see lots of great examples of firms that are really leading the way with, you know, having women in leadership positions, I think clients are demanding, you know, diversification on their case teams and their trial teams, and that has really pushed things forward in a really meaningful way. I mean, there's still work to do, for sure. But I think there's just a lot more opportunity for women to have a seat at the table and law firms right now.
Steve Fretzin 12:33
Okay, and what what are some of the things that that women should be considering or thinking about to achieve status or a level of success at a private law firm, private practice, big or small? Doesn't matter? But what are the kinds of things that they should be that they should be looking to do to, you know, to, you know, to leverage what's going on right now and make sure that they're, you know, getting to the next level?
Jennifer Bennett 12:56
No, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think that the number one, I mean, we talked, you know, earlier about the importance of building a book of business, I mean, I think whether you're a woman or you're a man, that's always the key is, the more you know, you work to, to build that for yourself, the more leverage you will always have. So I think that it always comes back to that, and that's always number one. But I do think that, you know, women, you know, should have the confidence and recognize their value to firms, you know, firms really want, you know, to keep to keep women and, you know, really make sure that they stay in the firm and don't leave, because, you know, for the myriad reasons why, why anybody might leave a big law firm, but so I think it's really having that confidence and, and recognizing value and saying, Hey, you know, this is what I want to do, I want to be a partner here, I want this kind of arrangement, or I want, you know, my clients need this and, you know, really pushing things forward and being proactive. And I think the other thing is, you know, women looking to make a move, it's just, you know, asking those questions of a firm that you're thinking about, you know, and really asking to talk to women and leadership, or, you know, really women at all levels and affirm and hear about their experience and hear how it's done for them. I think, I've seen a lot and a lot of interview processes that candidates are afraid to ask those questions, and they absolutely shouldn't be firm should be happy to open up about all of those issues.
Steve Fretzin 14:19
Okay. Yeah, that's great. And I think that, you know, I'm not to be mansplaining because that's, you know, nothing I ever want to be accused of, again, it's happened before. And again, I'm not I'm educating people on business development, best practices, be it man, woman or alien doesn't matter. But the idea of having a book Absolutely. Having that gives you that greater say at the table. I would say on top of that, becoming a thought leader really focusing on on your name being the standout in your particular area. You know, if you're an IP and technology in Chicago, you know, you're a Dahlia cepr and you say her name and people immediately know Oh, yeah, Cher. She's the you know, leader in that space or, you know, if I said Bob Clifford with aviation, you know, personal injury, I mean, we can go on and on with people that are the thought leader. So I think having a book being a thought leader, and then the other tip that I always give, because, you know, women do have pressures that men don't have. And, you know, it's it's a reality, that there's a family component, there's, you know, that that leaks into it. And Time management is really a critical element. And women and men alike don't really have a handle on how to manage time and how to get the most out of a minute, an hour a day, whatever. And I think that's a learnable skill, like most things are, that need to be applied. And that's going to be potentially a game changer for people that are looking to build a book that have time constraints, anything you'd like to add on to that as far as what you've seen.
Jennifer Bennett 15:50
No, I think that's absolutely right. And I think, um, you know, women shouldn't be afraid to, you know, sort of take the time management bull by the horns and take the time, they need to do the things they need to do, you know, either, you know, outside the office, I mean, I remember being in a discussion with a female partner talking to a group of some of our associates many years ago, and she said, You know, I've got stuff to do outside of the office and what I need, I just put something on my calendar, nobody needs to know if you don't feel comfortable saying I need to handle this, or I need to handle that. Just put it on your calendar, block it off, be confident and handle your day the way you need to do it. But, you know, I think you're absolutely right. I think those skills are so important.
Steve Fretzin 16:34
Yeah, and I'm working with an IP attorney. Now she's at a major intellectual property firm. And she's, you know, a leader, she's, she's in charge of some very large associations that she basically volunteers. She's cranking out hours, she's originating business, she's got kids and family. I mean, she's balancing it all. And it's not easy, but it's doable. And that's what has to happen today to kind of get to the next level, whether we call it a seat at the table, or, or independence or financial freedom, whatever we want to call it. And, you know, that's, that's where it is. And so if you're not there, these are the kinds of things you're going to want to think about when you talk to Jennifer, because that's going to that's going to sell the deal to go where you want to go and have the lifestyle, you want to move to Colorado or you want to move somewhere cool, or whatever, then cooler than Chicago, I guess. That cooler in temperature cooler in? Hey, I live in Colorado. I'm cool. So let me ask this. And this is a weird question. But it's a segment I like to call. They never taught me this in law school. And I haven't done it in a while. But I thought it'd be kind of fun for us to talk about what are some things that they never taught in law school that a young lawyer would would like that should know, but doesn't right now?
Jennifer Bennett 17:46
Well, I mean, I think one of the I mean, some of it is just basic, you know, how to survive in a business environment lessons. I mean, I can't count the number of times I've seen either summer associates or new associates just do some of the craziest things, because this is literally the first job they've ever had, you know, it's like, it kind of boggles the mind that you could have somebody you know, so educated and getting paid so much money, and they've probably never had a job in a business environment before. So, I mean, it sounds silly, but I wish more law schools would teach sort of basic, you know, business skills, business etiquette, you know, that kind of, because these, you know, young lawyers get thrown into these situations, sometimes with big clients, and, you know, they don't, you know, other than sort of learning by example, on the fly, they don't really have any guidebook of how to act. So I think that's, that's important. seems silly, but it is important. But I think the business development part is a is a huge piece of that. Another another program that I put together many years ago for summer associate class was, you know, the biggest rainmaking partner in the firm, brought two of his clients into the office and sat down at a table and ended around a round table with summer associates and just talked about, you know, how he developed business from them, it turns out that, you know, these three were all in law school together, and that relationship started from, you know, day one, and just built from there. And these ended up being two of his biggest clients. So I think demystifying some of how you develop business, and, you know, really demonstrating that it doesn't start, you know, in your fifth year, when you're starting to think about whether you want to become a partner, and oh, boy, I better start developing a book of business right now. It actually starts with your, with your peers, and grows from there. And, and it doesn't have to be scary, right? It's, your colleagues, it's your friends, and maybe someday your clients.
Steve Fretzin 19:38
And that's a really good point, because a lot of the people that go to law school aren't going to go into private practice, they're going to end up going into own their own business, they're going to end up at a general counsel. And if you stay in touch with the best and brightest or the people that you you know, feel are going places, you know, 10 years from now 15 years years from now, you know, if you keep in touch, you know, continue to be A friend and help them in their career endeavors, you know, it's going to come home to roost. And I think that that attorneys and law school need to really consider the idea of relationship building and networking as a core skill that they better start refining early on. It doesn't have to be about business development and getting business. That's not something a law school student, or even maybe a first to third year lawyer would be looking into. But certainly building relationships and growing a network and making sure that you're, you know, you've got a sort of a plan for that, I think, would be super helpful. No, absolutely, absolutely. You know, from our mouths, to the ears of the deans at these law schools who continue to ignore the problem that is, you know, they need to start teaching these things. You know, it is a part of law. I mean, even thinking back to when I first started working with lawyers, and how difficult it was for me to get accredited for CLE. Because marketing, business development, branding, LinkedIn, blah, blah, blah, it's it's not it's not legal education. And so it's amazing how, at least in Illinois, how they've turned a corner, and they've really made really anything and everything that I'm teaching now accredited, you know, so we just need to flip that switch. And I know, things illegal, don't move quickly, but that that's got to happen or nationally, because it's it's changing too much for, you know, to stay the course and the way it's going.
Jennifer Bennett 21:21
No, I agree. And I think it's a real acknowledgement. I mean, I mean, your that, you know, a lot of lawyers, you know, law is a profession, and a lot of lawyers think of it that way first, and then the rest. Second, but I think that, you know, what, what's happening in Illinois, and there are some law firms, law schools that are starting to teach more of these classes. But it's a real acknowledgement that part of the practice of law is the business of law. And those are those are skills that are just so important. And I think you're kind of doing your your students a disservice if you're not giving them at least some tools to hit the ground running and enter.
Steve Fretzin 21:55
Right on, right on. Well, let me ask you this. Is there anything, you know, so so there are lawyers out there? Or there are law firms out there that may want to talk to you about what you do and maybe get engaged with you? How do people get in touch with you if they'd like to reach out?
Jennifer Bennett 22:09
Absolutely. Well, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn of Jennifer Bennett, find through through our website, my firm's website, KBFsearch.com So www.kbfsearch.com. But yeah, I mean, I'm always happy to talk to any firm, or any candidate that is that is looking to make a move. And even if it's just a, hey, let's have a conversation about what might be possible. I mean, I feel like, you know, most of my day is spent in really a consultative and almost counseling way on both the law firm and the candidate side, just talking through ideas, and, you know, what might be a move, and I, you know, like you said before, this is a, this is a long game. And, and these career decisions are so, so important. And so it's not about you know, making a quick match or a quick deal. It's about, you know, really finding that, that right, match.
Steve Fretzin 23:02
Yeah, appreciate, you're not saying that you are part time therapists, but I'm sure you are. Right?
Jennifer Bennett 23:10
Well, listen, I, you know, I would, I would never hold myself out as a therapist, but I will say that there's a certain level of, you know, you do when you when you work, especially with the closely with the candidate over a long period of time, I mean, he's, you know, especially on the partner side, these moves can take a long time, and you really, you know, end up sharing just a lot of a lot of stuff with each other, and you hear a lot of things. And you know, what, it's important to do that, because there are so many factors that come in to figuring out what the right with the right places for you professionally, you know, it's it's business, but it's also very personal. And so, you know, I really, that's the part of the job that I really enjoy. And it's there's really nothing, nothing better than feeling like you've helped somebody find, you know, the right next professional home.
Steve Fretzin 23:59
Well, there's a lot that goes into it, and to have someone like yourself in in their corner I know is a is a terrific benefit and appreciate what you do. And I want to thank you for taking some time for me and for my listeners today. Appreciate you coming on the show.
Jennifer Bennett 24:17
Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 24:18
Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. And Hey, everybody, I just want to thank you for listening and taking some time with Jennifer, myself today. Hope you enjoyed today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe. We'll talk to you again soon.
Narrator 24:39
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.