In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jay Harrington discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"You need to position yourself to be more visible and relevant in places where people are now searching for solutions - which is online." — Jay Harrington
Connect with Jay Harrington:
Twitter: @harringj75
Facebook: Harrington
Website: HCommunications.biz
Book: The Productivity Pivot & More!
Show: The Thought Leadership Project
LinkedIn: Jay Harrington
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jay Harrington 0:00
Don't assume that there are no opportunities even though the economy might be down across many sectors. There are opportunities to be had but you do have to probably ramp up the activity level right now.
Narrator 0:15
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:38
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. Be that lawyer. I'm happy to be here today and enjoying another day of the zombie apocalypse here during COVID time. I've got a very cool guest today. It's author, thought leader and coach and trainer for attorneys. Jay Harrington. Jay, how's it going?
Jay Harrington 0:55
Really? Well, Steve, you know, as we always have to qualify with all things considered, but But yeah, doing well. How about yourself?
Steve Fretzin 1:02
Yeah, so far, so good. You know, look, I just took the dog for a walk. It's a beautiful day here in Chicago. And, you know, while the world is falling apart around me, I feel like you know, I'm trying to keep keep my head about me. So, overall, pretty good. Pretty good. Not bad, not bad. So clearly, you know, is my audience knows I don't do justice to my guest in the in the sentence bio. So can you give everybody a little bit of an understanding about what you do? And maybe how you came to be? And in that type of thing?
Jay Harrington 1:31
Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And first of all, Steve, thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure to join you on your podcast. So yeah, my journey and I guess, relation to the practice of law started with law school to go back a bit. And I went to University of Michigan law school and I practice law for a number of years following that I started my career in in Chicago actually, and I was at Skadden Arps doing corporate bankruptcy work. And went from there back to my hometown, which is Detroit, Michigan. Practice that Foley and Lardner which was a relatively new office to the city at that point, and then struck out on my own, I had a small law firm boutique law firm, doing corporate restructuring work, mostly it was sort of in the midst of the financial crisis. And in Detroit, the automotive crisis in particular. And then I ended up leaving the practice of law and formed a consultancy, which serves lawyers and law firms called Harrington communications. And through that we do marketing for law firms. And then I, as you mentioned, I do do coaching and training for individual lawyers as well. So I've been in the, in the industry for quite a while, 20 years now, and, you know, in different capacities, but, but that's what I'm doing right now.
Steve Fretzin 2:48
And you've got a new book out?
Jay Harrington 2:50
I do. Yeah, I just thank you for mentioning that. It's called the productivity pivot, and it came out a couple weeks back. So that's exciting. And it's, it's a book about, you know, a particular issue that or question that I get asked a lot, and especially in the midst of coaching, which is you get to this point where you work with a client, you kind of you know, craft a plan instead of vision sets goals, and then, you know, you get to that Crux point where it's time to execute on that plan. And oftentimes, you know, lawyers, like all of us, run into the problem of, you know, there's never enough time to do what needs to be done. At least that's the viewpoint. So I kind of wrote the book to try to address that issue. And it's really a book about productivity of productivity as it relates to business development specifically. So yeah, so yeah, I'm excited to have that out in the world now.
Steve Fretzin 3:40
Great in how many books is that now for you?
Jay Harrington 3:43
That is my third book. So I've kind of about five years ago, I well, six years ago, actually, I kind of set a goal for myself to to write a book every two years. And so So, so far, so good. So I'm on my, on my third and it's your six. So..
Steve Fretzin 3:59
Okay, now wait a second. So I've written three books, you've written three books, you work with lawyers on coaching and training, business development, communications, etc. I do that as well. So what's up with that? How'd you get on my show? I'm a little confused.
Jay Harrington 4:13
I know you must have run out of guests or something, Steve
Steve Fretzin 4:16
I have nobody left and nobody left in the tail end of your
Jay Harrington 4:19
Turn to competitors. Yeah, no doubt.
Steve Fretzin 4:21
I guess so. I guess so. Well, listen, everybody. I just want to make make a point here that Jay and I are yes, we do a lot of the same things. But realistically, we're not competing against each other for lawyer business or law firm business. We're really competing against apathy within the legal community. There are attorneys that need help with their business development. If you're listening, you might be one of them. And the idea is that we're going to do a little dueling banjos. Today we're going to talk about specific topics that we know affect lawyers. And then we're going to give you two different viewpoints. He's got some ideas, I've got some ideas. We're going to slap them together in a sandwich, and we're going to give you guys some great takeaways. So hopefully you enjoy What you hear in the next 25, 30 minutes, but we're going to try to have some fun with that. Does that sound good, Jay?
Jay Harrington 5:05
Yeah, I can't wait. Sounds perfect.
Steve Fretzin 5:07
Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's start off with the most obvious that we are dealing with an unprecedented time. We're in now, five months now or was marching, do the math is like five months of COVID. And everybody's been hunkering down. And some offices are starting to open slowly and some aren't. But there are attorneys that are saying I can't really market right now, because of COVID. And there's no events, there's no conferences, I can't get together with people face to face. So let's start off with that as our main kind of starting topic and go from there. And I'll, I'll give you first shot.
Jay Harrington 5:39
Okay. Yeah, great. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's a legitimate objection, I guess. But in the sense that it's true, you can't be doing what you were doing before, necessarily. But, you know, like any challenge, I think, if you flip it around, you can see that there's opportunity in it. And one of the things that I like to talk to my clients about is trying to do some creative constraint exercises, because I think too many lawyers limit themselves by things like geography or opportunities that might be available to them within close geographic proximity to them when, you know, these days, obviously, everyone knows that, you know, so much discovery of lawyers and discovery of service providers is happening, you know, on digital networks, and the Internet, and really, you're not constrained by geography any longer. So, having that mindset that all of a sudden, you know, you can connect with people all over the world, and you're no longer constrained by these ideas, that anyone who's a potential client like, has to be within 30 miles of where you're located, is a real opportunity. So, you know, we're, we're at this point now, where there's a theory called punctuated equilibrium, where in nature, long periods of sort of status quo are shattered by these intervening events. And we're in that type of period right now where that status quo has been shattered. And we need to think differently about our marketing ourselves as lawyers and, and really, you know, thinking about now, you know, the world is potential opportunity, there's no reason why you need to be thinking about, you know, the only opportunities being the local networking events you attend, or those people who are in your immediate network who stick to lunch, you need to position yourself to be more visible and relevant in places where people are now searching for solutions, which is online, so it's a great opportunity to shift to probably where you should have been, or certainly would have needed to be in the next few years anyway, which is a more digitally oriented thought leadership type approach to marketing and, and you know, when things do return to a relative normal, where that sort of face to face interaction is, is possible, again, all you're going to have is another tool in your toolkit to expand your practice. So, so again, it's certainly it's I'm not saying it's not a challenge, but you know, see it as an opportunity and, and adapt to sort of the new world we're living in and open yourself up to new opportunity. So Steve, I'll throw it over to you, but just a couple ideas, way to think more positively about situation we're in.
Steve Fretzin 8:03
Yeah, and I think that those are some great points in in social media is, is crowded, but I think there are ways to stand out by being active and in getting people, you know, interacting with your social media posts, and, and, and becoming more visible and thought leadership. The other thing that we need to talk about is the fact that most attorneys know a lot of people, you know, they're not necessarily you know, in a cave by themselves. So you've got your partners that you can network with, you've got your friends and family, you've got your clients, various strategic partners, people you've networked with over the years, and it's time to call those in. And to get a zoom meeting set up or a socially distance coffee or beer, whatever the case might be, based on your geography, there's different limits there. But the, at the end of the day, you know, get a list together of the people, you know, rate them a, b, and c, you know, based on on what your relationship is, and where you believe the opportunity could go. And a is obviously at the top and sees down below, and start getting some meeting setup and trying to be selfless, and ask, you know, how can I help you. And, you know, these are tough times. I don't want to keep saying that. But people know it. But at the same time, this is the great time to add value for other people to get in front of clients. Ask how you can help and my guess is educated guess that they'll want to reciprocate. And that's going to create upsell, cross sell opportunities, it's going to create referral in what I would call quality introduction, opportunities. And so I think we need to look at at the digital and we need to look at, you know, at the the database that you've constructed over your X number of years, and how to best leverage those contacts during these tough times and really, you know, stick with the people you know, right now, because they're useful and valuable. And maybe you've been sort of not avoiding them but you've been sort of working around them always looking for the shiny penny. When in fact you've got dollars you know, laying right in front of you just need to go grab. So, Jay, anything to add on to that.
Jay Harrington 9:58
Now I think that's great. advice, Stephen. Yeah. And the point, I think that the larger point being just, you know, don't don't assume that the opportunities aren't there, you've got to just be simply become more active. And in the process of being more active, also more strategic. But don't don't assume that there are no opportunities, even though the economy might be down across many sectors. There are opportunities to be had, but you do have to probably ramp up the activity level right now.
Steve Fretzin 10:25
Gotcha. Gotcha. Right on. So let's, let's take that to a segue, which is there are still attorneys that are very busy. I've talking with attorneys all the time, some that are a little down on their hours, and there's some that are just getting crushed with billable hours, which is amazing that that's happening. And, you know, I get it in some areas, but in others, maybe not so much. But what about the idea that attorneys say, Well, I don't have the time or I'm busy doing legal work? How am I going to, you know, focus on business development, when I'm when I'm billing all these hours? What's the, what's the sort of the fix there?
Jay Harrington 10:56
Well, there's a few, a couple quick ones. And I always kind of mentioned to attorneys, when this issue comes up is one, perhaps you're not charging enough, right, you're not creating enough profit margin for you to be able to carve out time for business development, you're just scraping by. And it might sound easier said than done. But I know a lot of lawyers who haven't raised it, I'm thinking of a specific example right now, as someone who is in does estate planning work, and they haven't raised their sort of fixed fee for various aspects of this state planning practice they have for four years now. And, and I don't know, they just have a fear around that. So that's one way to do it. They might also might not delegate sufficiently, that would mean delegating administrative tasks to an assistant or outsourcing that to a virtual assistant or, or other attorneys within your firm, a lot of lawyers have a hard time letting go and delegating. And that obviously, could be a topic of a whole podcast episode, Steve, but I think, you know, the ability to process what work is on your plate, understand what you probably shouldn't be doing, and putting in place processes and systems for that to be delegated to others is another way to create time. And then lastly, and this is something I write quite a bit about in my new book is this idea that, you know, when you're devoting all of your time, or or the, you know, overwhelming majority of your time to serving clients, obviously, there's value in that that's how you generate fees. But if you're doing that you're spending all of your time, helping others to solve or address their own priorities. And you're not really you're not really devoting enough attention and resources to yourself. So the idea, you know, that talked about in the book is, comes from Charlie Munger, who everyone might know is Warren Buffett's maybe lesser known partner in Berkshire Hathaway, who's also a lawyer. And there's a little anecdote where when he was a young lawyer, he came to realize that he was spending all of his time billing hours for clients. And as a result of that, he was not investing properly in himself. So as he put it, he started to sell himself one hour of His most valuable time every day to work on things like professional business development, and it was the most important priority or investment he ever made. So I think if you think about it, you know, if most lawyers work, you know, on average, maybe a 10 hour day, one hour a day is 10% of your time. And if business development, which I believe it is, is the key to your long term success. It's what can bring you greater wealth, and autonomy and satisfaction in the practice of law. Having your own book of business rather than relying upon others to supply you with work. Well, then prioritizing that one hour a day to work on business development is in blocking that time and your calendar is important to get over this idea that you don't have the time to do it, you need to make the time to do it. Because it is in fact, the most important thing you probably do all day.
Steve Fretzin 13:44
Yeah, I think that's it. So so. So you know, it's interesting that there's all types of skills that are learned in law school and time management isn't really one of them, when in fact, you know, time is money, you know, legitimately so. So that's something that I think every attorney needs to focus in on is how to balance that time and really become a good time manager. One thing or two things that I typically do with my clients, where I see that there's some significant time issues. Number one is tracking your time. So you're tracking your billable hours so that you can get paid, but what about tracking your day? I mean, start at 7am and finish at 6pm and really track what you're doing all day. And I'll bet you know, dollar dozens that your dollars to donuts. I think it's dollars donuts. That's you're gonna find some inefficiencies. In some cases. I had an estate planner who was doing a get this two hours of copies a day. He was doing his own copies two hours a day. So you do the math on that it works out too if you're good at math, about an extra week a month that he could add into his time just from getting someone else to make copies. Another one I had a client who was it was starting his day later, he was starting his day around 10 o'clock, nine or 10 o'clock in the morning and the reason was, is He's staying up to one or two in the morning talking to his wife, don't even have a TV, but they're just talking, I go, What are you talking about Holy mackerel, I can't find things to talk to my wife about. I got to read the news and just try to figure stuff out. Anyway, the long in the short is that sometimes there's inefficiencies that, you know, things like Jay, you said, you know, delegation issues, or just things that you shouldn't be doing, they're under your paygrade. And then the other piece of it is the attitude, you know, it's just a cop out, I don't have time I'm busy. Well, you know, again, you have to make business development a priority, if you want to see the rewards of having a million dollar book, The $2 million book and what that does for your career, for your financial stability, and for your ability to be portable, if the world goes to hell, or your firm gets bought, and you need to go somewhere, and you don't have that book to support the portability. So I think about just you've got to have the right mindset that business development isn't dirty, we don't have to call it sales, because we know you're afraid of that word. So, you know, let's, let's not be afraid of it, let's embrace it and realize that to your point earlier, Jay, that that is the key to to financial security and freedom for attorneys these days, I'm sorry, that that's the case. But that's sort of where it is.
Jay Harrington 16:14
Yeah, there's no other way around it. I mean, it's like any, it's like developing any habit, you know, it takes it takes discipline and willpower at first, you have to devote the time you have to devote the effort, you know, the idea, though, is to is that by being consistent, you're gonna achieve positive results, and you're going to use as a result of that, you're going to want to do more of the activity that's generating those results. So, you know, just like training, you know, for fitness or any development of a good habit, you've got to, you know, you've got to really be devoted to it at first, and then you'll find that you'll just start doing it, because you'll get those positive results, and it'll be a positive cycle.
Steve Fretzin 16:53
Right, right. And I think it's also about efficiencies with what you're doing on business development. And that that's my clean segue to the next question, which is, you've got writing, you've got speaking, you've got networking, you've got a social media posting, and the list goes on and on? How does a lawyer figure out where to invest his or her time efficiently or effectively, to grow book a business or grow personal brand?
Jay Harrington 17:18
Yeah, I mean, I think it starts with some, for one, it starts with self awareness. I mean, I think we all have aptitude towards certain things. Some people love the idea of going into a, you know, big networking event and having conversations with people, other people dread it, you know, I think there's value in working on your weaknesses. But when it comes to an activity, where there's no one right way to do it, like business development, any various tactics can work and can be successful for you, you know, I'm a fan of playing your strengths. So in order to know that you need to be self aware and examine, you know, kind of what your, what you have an aptitude for. And then also at the same time, it's good to experiment with different things. Like I said, I know lawyers who have very successful books of business, some of whom, you know, spend almost all their time writing thought leadership content, others, they've never written a single article, but they're prolific networkers, there's no one right right way to do it. But you should experiment. That's why it's important to start doing business development from the early stages of your career. So that you have time to develop that skill set, understand what works for you in the context of your practice. And, you know, double down on what's working over time, it's really hard if you get yourself in a position where you know, you're feeling the pressure to develop business, you're coming up for partner or, you know, your firm's on you because you're not originating enough. And then you're sort of panicking and, and you're bouncing from, you know, tactic to tactic with no real success. You want to have that groundwork laid where you know, you know, you know, what you're good at, you know, what's working for your particular practice, and you can do more of that. So, I mean, again, I think that the broader picture is, anything can work on, you know, virtually anything where you're connecting with people, where you're showcasing your expertise, where you're getting in front of people and being visible and generating awareness. But, you know, different people are better at different things and, and they should focus on that.
Steve Fretzin 19:16
Yeah, like that. And so, you know, if you're into, you know, football and there's a way to get together with with, you know, other people that are into football, or that you're into, you know, biking or, you know, you're a part of an alumni group, where you all have a specific school in common, you know, there are things that you can do, where you can enjoy yourself, and also, you know, get in front of good people and build, you know, build relationships that way, something that I that I've been, you know, touting for years and I don't know if this is something you can visualize or that people can visualize, but if you take a triangle or a pyramid, in you slice it into, you know, segments where the bottom segment is the widest and you move up and as you move up, the segments get smaller, but they also become better from a stamp. point of time efficiency and value. So if you look at the bottom slice of this pyramid, you know, that's where cold calling comes in. And I think lawyers all despise and don't want to do cold calling. So I don't think in some instances is not legal. So you want to look at at the bottom, you know, sliver and say, hey, maybe that's not for me, and maybe I don't have to do any of that, then you move up from there, it might be things that take a while, like speaking and writing and networking, they don't just instantly give you business. I mean, it's possible to walk in front of somebody and get some business. But realistically, it takes time. It takes patience, multiple meetings, speaking, writing, I mean, writing for crying out loud. I've been I've been writing for the Chicago daily law bulletin for five years. And, you know, I know that it adds value, but to say, Oh, I read your article, and I want to hire you, Steve. I mean, that's not a regular occurrence. Okay. But I know that it's adding to the brand. I know, it's adding to, you know, what I'm doing to help help lawyers educate or educate lawyers, you move up from there, maybe you're engaging in business development, strategic partnerships, so people that have the greatest likelihood of running into general counsel's or like most likelihood of running into CEOs that might need your services, right. So now you're dealing in people that have that are running now that are running in the same circles, you know, for me, for example, working with lawyers, I like to network with, you know, insurance companies, bankers, you know, title companies, people that are that are engaging in with lawyers on a regular basis, better than, you know, an accountant data, you know, at a small firm that, you know, may not know anyone, and then at the top of the list is going to be the family, the friends, the clients, the people that know, your work that know you're good. And, and again, they can tout your your expertise, and in asking them for introductions is going to be so little time for so great reward. So I think on one hand, you want to find things that you can enjoy and feel comfortable with the others, I think building the skills to work within those segments where the low hanging fruit exists. Jay, anything to add on to that?
Jay Harrington 22:05
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really good. That That made me think, Steve about a topic maybe we may get to in the context of this conversation. But you know, really any, the marketing tactics or business development tactics you engage in really should come as a result of really identifying who your target market is, right? So, you know, the more narrowly focused your target market, for example, you might be a litigator, but say your litigator focus on the automotive industry, that target market will dictate, you know, some of the tactics that will present themselves to you. So, you know, you are you then targeting General Counsel at automotive companies, they read some of the same publications, so you might want to try to write for those publications, they attend many of the similar events, you know, within the trade associations that they're members of, you then can identify with more specificity, where the people you're targeting, spend their time and attention, and you can then inject yourself into the those conversations that are happening within those industries. So, you know, tactics sort of follow strategy in this sense. So it's important to not, you know, consider yourself as someone who can serve everyone, but rather, you know, market segments, and you can then identify the marketing tactics that relate to those target markets.
Steve Fretzin 23:20
Yeah, and helps you identify maybe where those people are, to your point, if, you know, if there are specific associations or boards or places where those GCS, you know, dwell, that may be where you want to, you know, work to get on that board or to be a part of something like that.
Jay Harrington 23:34
Exactly.
Steve Fretzin 23:35
So, alright, let's move on. Next point I want is, this is a fun one, networking, it seems like a waste of time. And I'm going to jump in, and I'm going to start with this one, I'm going to let you you know, rebut what I'm saying or or add to it, however you see fit j but you know, networking is a is a waste of time, if it's done. And effectively. I say in my second book, the attorneys networking Handbook, that no one has wasted more time than I have networking. And while it might have been good, from a branding standpoint, just being out there, where everyone sort of knew me, because I had glad handed everyone in town for a while, the reality is that we have to look at making networking efficient. And so this goes back to I think, just kind of like our last point, you know, if if you're looking at who your targets are, and I think there's really, maybe three main targets, and if you can find where those people are, and go there and meet them and having a strong approach, you're going to be successful. So number one is where are the prospective clients? So if you're going after GCS, where are they? You know, they're not at a local Chamber of Commerce, right? So you've got to find where those GCS are hanging out at the private golf club on a board at a conference. Okay. The second one is strategic partners, which I mentioned earlier, where are the other people that sell in the same markets that you sell in and again, if you're able to get referrals from other lawyers, maybe it's specific types of other lawyers like for example, family attorney He's getting business from estate planning attorneys or maybe getting business from attorneys that do valuations, etc. And then the last one are centers of influence, where it's, it's the people that know everyone. And so the mayor of the town or the the GC that's been everywhere knows everybody and wants to, you know, kind of, you know, move you around a circle. So that's really what's going to make networking more efficient for you is, is really going where the, you know, where that where the people are that you want to meet. So Jay j Tag, you're it.
Jay Harrington 25:30
Okay, great. Yeah. And I'll just, I'm not going to rebut any of that, because I think it's all great advice. But I will add a couple things just reinforced, perhaps, but when, when entering any networking environment, you know, go in with a plan, like, and I think that's to your point, Steve, I mean, know who you're trying who you're trying to reach what you're trying to say. But most importantly, I think you set with a mindset that you're going into those environments to help other people as opposed to trying to generate business for yourself. And as a consequence, you'll typically generate business for yourself if you do that. So what I mean by that is, really listen, ask questions, this is sort of basic advice. But do that and do it really actively and thoughtfully, try to connect people with other resources, you take notes, following conversations that you have, so you can do appropriate, meaningful follow up. And you really think about networking as the real, you know, the, the seed of a future relationship. And the more you can be seen, as someone who's helpful, who is, you know, thoughtful, who is a good listener, the better impression you're going to make on those that you connect with. And the longer you know, the better the chance that that relationship will blossom into something beneficial. And, you know, the other reason I guess, to think about doing more networking is that it is it's one of those areas where you're just simply creating those opportunities for serendipity, where you, you know, sometimes in the in the strangest places that you've never expect that you'll you'll end up meeting someone who turns into a client or a referral source, there's a great story that one of my clients has that, you know, he's a, he's a middle aged lawyer. And he went with his kids to the m&m concert in Detroit, and a few years back, and he was with his friend who also brought his kids and they were standing in line to get some food or something like that. And his, his friend cracked a joke. They said, I bet you're the only lawyer in this in the stadium right now. And when he said that, the guy who's standing in front of them in line turned around, he says, oh, you're a lawyer. So am I. And they struck up a conversation, it turned out that that gentleman was in the market for a family law lawyer, which is what my client did. And that turned into a client engagement. He referred my clients to other people who refer him to for other people. So that one, you know, serendipitous moment, not necessarily networking, but being out in public and talking to people having those conversations can sometimes turn into something totally unexpected.
Steve Fretzin 27:59
Yeah, I mean, so I think that might be, you know, be prepared with a good infomercial. Because you never know, if you're at a concert, or it's a park, that you're going to have to kind of share what you do if somebody says, Oh, that's interesting. What do you do, you know, be prepared for that. What I was going to add as well, just to kind of round this out is that if you're if you're one of these wild, you know, can talk to anybody lampshade on the head at the party type of lawyer that just can can can talk the talk with anybody that used to be networking that used to be what was sort of the hot that was the person that was successful in this, you know, the 80s in the 90s. And I think today, that person may even come across a little obnoxious or a little over the top. And so it's interesting working with a lot of introverts, and a lot of people that are more reserved, that they struggle with networking, and what we try to do is, is help them with with a process and language, if you can learn in networking is a learned skill. So don't think just because you weren't born with that specific personality, that you can't go out and crush it. As a networker. It's a learned skill. So whether you're learning from Jay or me or content, you know, there are steps to follow when you're networking to get particular results to get particular outcomes, as well as questions to ask and language to follow. And when you do that, it becomes you know, almost like, you know, if you're run a trial, you know how to run a trial. If you if you know how to how to you know, handle up a particular matter, you can you can do it, especially after you've done it five or 10 times. So instead of winging it, and just kind of hoping that you get a good result being out there and that's why it seems like a waste of time because you're out winging it, hoping that you're going to, you know, run into that serendipitous situation, you know, make it something that that you build as a skill. Okay, so that's something that I think is really important. And I want to wrap up Jay with with one really interesting topic because I feel like and I don't know about you, but I get pushback from business development people apartments marketing departments and I don't know if they feel like I'm or think that I'm some competitor to them. Maybe I am, I don't, I don't think I am because they just they just are not able to do what I do. And maybe that's that's the problem. But it's it's that that there are attorneys that need more coaching than business development departments are realistically able to provide the programs that I run, for example, I'm looking at spending somewhere between 30 and 60 hours a year with an individual attorney, helping them basically get an MBA in business development. And there's no BD department that I've heard of that can do that they have too many people to, to sort of babysit or to to help. Now, of course, they can bring us in to work with those groups. And we do that with so my question is, then an attorney needs more help than the business development team is able to provide? Or maybe there is no business development team? Is it something that attorneys should be spending their own money on to hire a coach, like you or myself? Is that is that a good investment?
Jay Harrington 31:00
Yeah, I think so. And I probably sounds completely self interested. But you know, having been on both sides of this, you know, both as a practicing lawyer, and now as a coach, you know, that was certainly one of the most, and one of the reasons I went into coaching was, when I ran my own firm, I needed coaching, I came from big, firm environments where they had tremendous resources internally, but I needed something to help me as I got off on my own, because I really didn't know what I didn't know, until I, you know, hung a shingle, so to speak, and, and having a coach or resource like that was was invaluable to me, which is one of the things that motivated me to become one. And yeah, I think you know, it for any lawyer who's really motivated to, to build a practice, I think having that coach is, is critical. I mean, you've, you've heard the comparisons, like, you know, great athletes, having coaches, great, you know, professionals in any domain, having coaches, even though if they're at the top of their game, and the same principle applies. So it's an investment, but there's some value, there's value in making an investment in and of itself. I mean, I think, you know, we've all experienced the fact that we, we take things more seriously when we invest our dollars into them. So you know, I'm a big fan of self learning, listening to podcasts, reading articles, reading books, but having that accountability factor of both paying and being accountable to a coach, who is someone outside of the realm of your firm, provides a lot of value and outside perspective, and certainly not to disparage business development professionals within firms at all, I think many of them are outstanding, and, and provide good resources for lawyers, but in many cases, for one, they're not trained as coaches. And it's not really a role that many of them, you know, necessarily signed up for. They, I think they can provide a lot of helpful advice and coaching in a sense, but having that consistency of an outside coach, who can move with you from one form to another or just stay with you throughout, you know, a period of time or your career is really valuable, because, you know, they've they've seen, you know, situations similar to yours, they they can spot the patterns, they can spot the issues and bring that wealth of experience to your own particular situation. So, you know, I guess, like I said, having been on both sides of it, I got a lot of value out of it. And, and I think that my clients that, that do invest in coaching, even if their firm provides some of those resources, have gotten a lot of a lot out of the process, both in terms of you know, yeah, I know, as coaches, we provide advice, but just the accountability factor and, and the consistency that ingrains in, in their habits and in their business development practices is very important.
Steve Fretzin 33:40
And if you think about investments in general, I mean, look, if I put, you know, $100,000 in the market, and I get back, 8%, I'm pretty happy. And you know, the idea that you're going to make an investment in yourself, no, not the firm investing in you, you're investing in yourself, because you're at the end of the day, when you can hit 1,000,00, 2,000,000 million dollars, when you can make it rain, and have a sustainable practice, you know, you're going to be providing for your family for the rest of your career. So I think it is, it is probably the best investment that can be made. And yes, it's self serving to some degree. But if you talk to any of my clients, and they say it was a terrible investment, I'd be shocked. I mean, every client that I work with that, you know, takes the coaching and executes on the coaching is, is killing it, right. And I'm sure that you're getting the same kind of results with your people. So at the end of the day, if you're highly committed and motivated, and you feel like you need more than what your firm or or is willing or able to provide, which is, you know, again, I think that there's to Jay's point there's a lot of value in business development departments. I mean, there's a reason they exist, and they're all good people and they do a great job, but they know realistically that they have a limited bandwidth on how much time they can spend with an individual attorney. So I think if you're looking to really take advantage of it, you gotta you got to sort of decide that you want to invest in yourself. And then you know, the other thing I'd say just to kind of wrap up and Then I'll get to your final thoughts is make sure you hire the right coach and Jri may not be right for you, there might be other people out there that are doing similar things that might have a personality that gels with you better, or maybe they've got a specific practice area that they've spent more time in than, than I have. But I think it's important to vet it out. And I make it a point to have every person that's going to potentially work with me that's interested in working with me, talk with a bunch of my clients, I have a very transparent air about me. And I'd rather them talk to my clients and hear what their experience was. And I think that I do that. I mean, if I'm going to go to a restaurant, I want to look up, you know, Yelp or Urbanspoon and I want to know, what people's experiences are, I think that's how we buy that's how we make, you know, decisions, especially, you know, high impacting decision. So, you know, I think it's important to find someone that fits with you on a personality level, but also, that has a proven track record of success in the market and helping other lawyers. So Jake, kind of Final thoughts, and then we're going to, we're going to kind of wrap up.
Jay Harrington 36:03
Yeah, no, I think that that all makes sense, Steven, and yeah, I think the point of finding the right coaches is key, you know, not all coaches are excel in all areas. Certainly, there's all kinds of issues that people seek coaching for in the legal sector, in particular, and, and there are coaches for those particular issues. So, you know, many times, business development is a focus, but there are many other issues that that, you know, you can find the right coach for a and have those. And I agree, have those conversations, asked, you know, to speak to other clients. I think that's, that's key. I mean, that's probably the biggest predictor of success in a relationship is, has the coach helped others accomplish something that you similar to what you're setting out to accomplish? So don't be afraid to ask any, any good coach would be happy to provide you with, you know, referral sources where you can talk to references that they've worked with in the past. So definitely ask those questions. have those conversations?
Steve Fretzin 37:03
Yeah, yeah. That's great. Well, listen, I hope this was helpful. Everybody, you know, Jay, and I going back and forth a little dueling banjos for you. And then just as we wrap up, Jay, I'd love to have you, you know, just share again, the name of the book, share your website, you know, put the plugs out there. And let's see if we can get some movement.
Jay Harrington 37:20
Okay, great. I appreciate that, Steve. So yeah, my new book is called the productivity pivot. You can find more information about that at productivitypivot.com, it's for sale on Amazon, if you'd like to check it out. I also have a podcast and Steve, I'm hoping to have you on at some point as well be fun to you know, maybe tackle another topic that's called the thought leadership project. So for anyone who's interested in thought leadership, marketing and marketing your expertise through the creation of content, that's really what we focus on on that podcast. And my agency through which we do marketing in and I do coaching is called Harrington communications. And that URL is h as in Harringtoncommunications.biz, so thanks again, Steve for let me plug, plug a few things there.
Steve Fretzin 38:07
Absolutely. And as long as we're talking about plugs, I will say that you know, my website for more information is Fretzin.com. I've got a couple books available on Amazon. If you type my name in on Amazon, you'll you'll come across them. And again, you know, my goal is to help help attorneys whether you hire Jay or myself or not, you know, the idea is that that that we want to just be helpful and be a resource. So, you know, again, hope you enjoyed the show and you know that you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody and be safe.
Narrator 38:43
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.