In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jason Ciment discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Content is legitimately the biggest investment and most important investment an attorney can make short of personal relationships and professional relationships." — Jason Ciment
Connect with Jason Ciment:
Website: GetVisible.com & JasonCiment.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/get-visible & linkedin.com/in/jasonciment
Twitter: twitter.com/GetVisibleMktg & twitter.com/jasonciment
Facebook: facebook.com/GetVisibleMarketing
Book: I Need More Clients: Digital Marketing Strategies That Grow Your Business: amazon.com/Need-More-Clients-Marketing-Strategies/dp/1537108352
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Jason Ciment 0:00
Content is legitimately the biggest investment and most important investment an attorney can make short of personal relationships and professional relationships.
Narrator 0:15
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:37
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I'm so happy that you're joining me today. And I hope all is going well with your business development and marketing efforts. It's not just enough to be a lawyer and be a good service provider or provide good service, however you want to look at it. These days. It's all about bringing in the business and having your own clients and building that book of business. So to support that I have this show, which is all about helping lawyers to be more efficient with their time to get results. And to make things a little easier. I have a terrific guest today. And he's someone who knows a lot about marketing. He's helped a lot of lawyers solve these marketing issues that keep coming up. And he's the CEO of a company called get visible. And we're talking about Jason Ciment. How you doing, Jason?
Jason Ciment 1:23
Good to be here. Nice to see you. Cross Country as we are now. Right?
Steve Fretzin 1:27
Yeah, we are we are we got to this Chicago California connection. Right?
Jason Ciment 1:30
Absolutely.
Steve Fretzin 1:31
Okay, well, beautiful. We're finally starting to get some decent weather here in Chicago. And that's all we do is wait, we wait out the winter, you guys are are just you know, hopefully, you know, avoid like another fire season. Is that the the key over there?
Jason Ciment 1:43
We just don't know what when there is.
Steve Fretzin 1:47
Yeah, but you guys have other issues, right? You're gonna all fall into the sea one day, is that the joke?
Jason Ciment 1:52
That cracked open up like the Bible and just swallow us up?
Steve Fretzin 1:55
That's it. That's it? Well, okay. I'm sure that's not gonna happen. But we are going to talk a little bit about you and let's get your background laid out. So you're not a lawyer, right?
Jason Ciment 2:05
I was trained as a lawyer went to law school, pass the bar and all that.
Steve Fretzin 2:08
Oh, then you okay, but you're not practicing. Currently?
Jason Ciment 2:10
I do not practice.
Steve Fretzin 2:12
Okay. That's okay. We are still a part of a team. I'm not a lawyer. So I'm excluded from getting picked on the team. No one's gonna have me run their trial. So I have to I have to deal with that every day. But, you know, give give a little background on how you came to be and from from being a lawyer to now working with lawyers on their marketing.
Jason Ciment 2:23
So first, I was a CPA. Then I went to law school, I thought I would be an estate planning attorney clicked in the probate court. And then what happened was, I got sworn in after passing the bar. I had just gotten married my last year of law school. We're sitting there in New York, we know we're going to move to LA, again, no more winters. And we're like, well, maybe for a year, I can play around and start a business, try something. And that's what I did. I actually started an internet website, to some magazine subscriptions of all things. And I thought I had amazing ideas. And I was going to walk on Fifth Avenue and self promotional subscriptions, all sorts of stuff. And it turned out that the internet back then with the 9600, baud modems was just getting going. And this is back in 96. And what occurred was my website started working. And I found the guy in Texas, who had one of the original shopping carts, and we built a site together, and I was paying him a lot of money. Then we ended up moving to LA as we had planned, my wife was from here. And the business started growing. I then bought the software company, who was running my website. And now I was an e commerce merchant in the way. And all along the way I had been doing search engine optimization. For our business, we weren't spending a lot of money on ads, it was all organic. Google was even our client, they bought every magazine in our catalog. And then after about, I think in about 2003. We bought the software company. then two years later, we opened up an agency and one of my first employees, he had called me up he said, his job wasn't so great. Why don't we start offering SEO to all the e commerce clients. And that's how I travelled in this route. And then every couple of years, we would add another revenue stream to the agency. So that was pay per click advertising, building WordPress websites. So e commerce slowly shifted into what you would call service providers. And so that started to overtake the e commerce and we still did e commerce. But then I joined this organization that you and I both belong to cloud providers, and I started meeting tons of lawyers, and CPAs and consultants. And it just organically grew.
Steve Fretzin 4:51
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. Big shout out to providers nationwide. And then you have this book called I need more clients. Tell me a little bit about that.
Jason Ciment 5:00
Okay, so what happened there was, we were hiring employees, we would teach them how to do our system, and then they would leave. And then we'd have to teach them all over again. And it was like, taking so much time to teach that we said, let's just put this down into kind of a manual of operations. And it became much easier once we formulated into kind of this manual to turn that into a book. And I realized that, as probably you do with this podcast, and the multiple books that you have written that education is the cornerstone of growth for a service oriented business. So you teach your clients how to do the things that you're doing, they become better clients, whether or not they hire you is a secondary thing, in terms of the book, because the majority people will not hire you. But they will become sources of referral that becomes sources of future books as well, if you get good feedback, and things like that. So that's how the book evolved. Pretty much.
Steve Fretzin 6:02
Very cool. So what what are the things that you're seeing right now in the in the legal community, around marketing that that lawyers struggle with? What are what are their main challenges, frustrations and concerns as it relates to marketing?
Jason Ciment 6:16
Well, part of the problem is, if you work with the larger marketing companies, they tend to take competitors under their wing. So how do you say to one lawyer law firm, I'm going to get you highly ranked, or I'm going to run your ad campaign, when you're working with another company that does pretty much the same thing. So the first problem is working with the larger marketing companies, you can buy territory for advertising, but you can't buy territory for running your own ads and your own organic ranking stuff. So that's one problem. The second problem is just the competition is just, it's only 10 spots on that organic page. So if everybody is in a hyper competitive space, like personal injury, or brain injury, or bankruptcy or trust, it becomes not trust, but bankruptcy, it becomes really, everyone's pulling out their wallet spending more and more to compete for the same 10 slots. So how do you become more efficient in spending your money is one thing. The second thing is maybe there is another way to get in front of your intended clients without having to compete for those 10 spots with ranking. So it's, it's it's a challenge for lawyers how to spend their money, how to spend their time, and also finding the right leverage points. I mean, if you're a lawyer and you, Bill $400 an hour, should you be spending time writing an article when you could hire a writer to write it for you?
Steve Fretzin 7:46
I think that depends on how retentive you are about what you're putting out and how easy it is to find a quality writer that's going to that's going to you know that you're going to feel comfortable handing it off to right, are you putting your name on something? Like I know, even for me, I mean, I'm putting my name on something I wanted to, you know, sound like me, I wanted to have good takeaways, I want it to be useful. And I don't know that a writer could do that. So how do lawyers then gain confidence in creation of content when they have those same acts, the same types of inks that I just mentioned I have?
Jason Ciment 8:17
So it's something we call the risk of knowledge transfer. So for example, what why would you outsource your marketing to a company, if you think about it, as opposed to hiring an internal chief marketing officer or a business development person that has a focus on the online. So one of the problems you experience, it's not just law firms, it's any business is people stay at the job at an average of two years. So you've got to invest, training and imparting the company culture, all of that to an employee, it will most likely is going to leave in two years. So your alternative is, well, if I work with an agency, and they learn the culture, I've now shifted that risk to the agency because even if they have people leaving every two years, it's their responsibility to figure out, you know, what, if they want to keep me as a client, they have to impart that corporate culture to their staff. So that's one part of it. If you can find a writer that that understands your space, then that person is not an employee, you don't have the risk of them leaving every two years. So you have the ability to hire somebody or hire a team that can understand the nuances of the way you want to communicate. not crazy expensive usually. And then you get to edit the final piece and put your own imprint on it. So that's sort of the best way to leverage your time and avoid the risk of knowledge transfer.
Steve Fretzin 9:50
And how important is content creation for attorneys today?
Jason Ciment 9:56
Probably just as important as it was 30 years years ago, except now your ability to distributed is even better back then, let's say before internet. And we have clients that have been writing articles for 40 years, you'd write a position piece, maybe you'd get it published in the Law Journal, or you partner with the ABA and get a book written or something like that, like one of our older clients wrote a book called The business of law. And he used to rerelease it every couple of years with the ABA. So that was your funnel to get eyeballs. Now with the internet, it's nothing, you don't need the ABA, you still need that good housekeeping, ABA seal of approval. But now you have the ability to take that same content, and you can re engineer it for a podcast, re engineer it for a video, you can turn it into a book, which you could do before you could turn it into an audio book, you couldn't do that before. So people who are driving can actually listen to your book on the way to work. Eventually COVID will then people will actually be driving back to an office. And COVID also has impacted why content is important. Even though I heard a stat last week, there's four blogs for every person on the planet. Some create or blog postings maybe.
Steve Fretzin 11:09
Okay
Jason Ciment 11:11
Exactly. And then who knows how many have been written by robots at this point. So good content is extremely valuable because it positions you as an authority. It gives you rankings if the content is optimized, it gives you the ability to speak to your referral partners. Because if you're giving them content that they can disseminate that makes them look good. That gets you more referrals. Content is legitimately the biggest investment and most important investment an attorney can make short of personal relationships and professional relationships.
Steve Fretzin 11:48
So I think the saying used to be in business, cash is king. And I think today maybe its content is king. That's what it sounds like.
Jason Ciment 11:54
Yes, yes. Well, cash is still very good. I remember when I got funded in my e commerce business, I had a choice of cash versus stock. And I and I went to the guy in my community, who is the most recommended, who just could see through the facts and figure out what you should do. And he literally sat in my house for an hour. And at the end, he goes take the cash. And that's what I did. And I gave up the stock which turned into my space.
Steve Fretzin 12:24
So there you go. You know, that's the best laid plans of, you know.
Jason Ciment 12:26
I still got a house out of it. I'm not complaining.
Steve Fretzin 12:29
Okay, okay, listen, we make our choices, and we got to live with them.
Jason Ciment 12:33
Correct.
Steve Fretzin 12:34
so let's continue the dialogue on content and think about content. As it relates to marketing and all the different uses. I think that's where maybe attorneys missed the boat or missed the point that content isn't an article that then sits on the firm's blog, and it's done. Right, so what what are we trying to do with content today to get the most out of it?
Jason Ciment 13:04
So one of the ideas that I picked up along the way, is to write an article for one person. And that one person could be part of a larger group of similar minded people. But if you target the article to one person, then what happens is you can connect to that person, and you can amplify what the article can accomplish. I'll give you an example. And this is something we did for a client of mine, Mark hanken. He's an IP Attorney.
Steve Fretzin 13:35
Oh, sure. Everybody knows Mark Hanken, and if you're..
Jason Ciment 13:37
Should be instead of saying we protect what you have in mind, his tagline should be everybody knows Mark Hanken
Steve Fretzin 13:42
Or just mark provide Mr. provisors Hanken about
Jason Ciment 13:46
Mr. Provide, right. And he's up at four in the morning, going to meetings on the East Coast, and he loves people, I know him for over 10 years. He's the real deal. So here's what happened. Mark also loves wine. And a lot of one of the things I learned early on in networking is what they call back of the card, which is not so much what you do, but why you do what you do, or the things that you do outside of work. Just the intangibles the nonprofit's that you volunteer and things of that nature. So Mark is known amongst his friends and colleagues as was an owner file as a wine guy. And so we came up with an idea to reach out to his network and have 10 people submit stories during COVID about drinking wine, and they will all send in pictures of their favorite bottle and wrote up a two paragraph story just about what drinking wine meant to them during COVID, something that was remarkable. And then we posted the article on Mark's website. Our team took care of getting all the information and contacting everybody. So Mark, didn't have to spend a lot of time maybe he spent 15 minutes figuring out the people he wanted to reach out to and sending out an email on top But we were doing just to make sure that people knew it was legitimate, and that it wasn't malware. And he gets and we completely fashion the article. Once the article is done, he's now announcing it verbally, he's sending out an email to his friends, Hey, take a look at what what this article is. And he's getting a lot of that back of the card activity on an article that has nothing to do with him being a lawyer, other than the fact that in the beginning of the article, it talks about what concerns a wine company should have about IP on their label IP on their bottle, shape, IP have their ingredients in their wine, if they have anything special. So there is a little bit of a connection to him being a trademark, and you know, an IP lawyer. But ultimately, this was a way of connecting with people in his network, to make them have to give them an opportunity to participate in something that they enjoy, and that he enjoys. And it gets him a lot of visibility. So you don't always need visibility on your area of practice. You need visibility that people remember who you are. I mean, I remember my dad was a politician, he was mayor of Miami Beach as a kid. And they used to say the meanest things about him in the newspaper. And his answer was always as long as they spell my name correctly. But that's before the internet, he might have felt differently with the internet and the ability for things to go viral and get spread. But I think that for lawyers, you want your name to be associated with things of good, but you need your name to be constantly in play amongst the people that refer you business. So I think that's one answer. I'll give you a nuance on that article. So let's say you're a personal injury attorney, you could you get for sure you're getting business from doctors, or chiropractors or whoever, you can go to your network of physicians, and you can come up with a topic and talk about injuries, treatments, something that may have some tangential rap reference point to the law that you're doing. But you're basically giving a podium to 10 of your professional referral partners to talk about something which gives them publicity. And you get the keywords in there that have to do with the sort of injuries that you represent. Now you've got an article that you didn't have to spend a lot of time putting together, each of those 10 people, which also happened in marks case, they will go send that article out to their friends and their social community and their Facebook following and Instagram or whoever, and you've got real amplification of your message.
Steve Fretzin 17:43
So it sounds like one of the keys than to summarize of a great content is to make it not just about your area of practice or area of expertise, that might be one direction to go. But it's also to bring up our bring out maybe what makes you unique or special or unique or fun or interesting. And getting people to know you for that. And then to amplify either of those options, you then want to you know, make sure that you're distributing it to people and with people that can help amplify the message through their networks. Is that essentially it?
Jason Ciment 18:15
Correct. And, and And just to be clear, absolutely, you should be putting out content about what you do?
Steve Fretzin 18:23
Well, sure, I'm just there's multiple ways to put out content. And, you know, if you're just if you're writing on your subject matter, that might be fine. But if you can do that, and also become known for something, maybe in different circles about things that are interesting to you and others, like for example, I'm part of a sport here in Chicago called platform tennis and people in California would know about it because it's it's a winter sport played outside. And I play when it's really really cold out and people think I'm nuts, but it's tennis, racquetball, ping pong, kind of all wrapped in one. And there's a community here in the North Shore of Chicago in the Chicago area. And I wrote an article about paddle and lawyers and business development and I was just out the other day and some guy says, your sneaker name sounds familiar. And he's an he's an IT guy. So it's not like even you know, he's not like a lawyer or anything. But somebody had forwarded him my article about paddle and comparing paddle tennis to business development and why there's lessons that you can learn and it just got my name out there on a completely unrelated subject to you know, lawyers but it but for him, it resonated because he enjoyed reading the content that and you know, sales, business development and paddle.
Jason Ciment 19:33
I'll share with you that I have a client in New York and he lives in New York now. He grew up in LA, very close with my wife's family, and he made 200 tik tok videos as a lawyer and all of a sudden he called me up in a panic last week he's getting 40 phone calls a day and emails on his website that was just a me to website that he built just I did it for him as a favor practically I said, you can Be professional with the website that you have, you need something that looks much better. And it was not for SEO, nothing tremendous for marketing was just there to look legit. Yeah, and all of a sudden now he's like, I need help, because I'm getting 40 calls a day, I don't even have a CRM system. I have five employees, now they're writing down the leads as they're coming in. And it was all from tic Tock videos. Wow, it's tic tocs. We're as boring as you can imagine, they were like, go to Google type in this phrase, look at your injuries, compare your injuries to what you see on the Google page that comes up, Call me if you need any help. And that 100 of those, why are these all dressed up and he's out in the mountains, and not in the mountains, but in the hills of New York out in the wild, and he's just taking videos not dressed up looking like a lawyer even. And that's content. So there's there's no rule for any said it took him two weeks to figure out the TIC Tock algorithm. And now he's got millions of views of his very low focus tic tocs.
Steve Fretzin 21:07
Wow. So yeah, I mean, I think I think there's opportunities to get content out there and do it in a unique way. And generally speaking, I think lawyers are opposed to anything that isn't, you know, professional looking like they're in a suit, and doing sort of the straight and narrow thing. And you're, you're identifying that there's, there's actually a lot of benefit to stepping outside of the standard suit and tie type of, of mindset or, or traditional way of marketing, if you will, and that is being different and unique and putting out content. That's, that's not just about the law.
Jason Ciment 21:43
Correct. I think a mix is a blend is like the Chinese Yin and Yang, yin and yang symbol, you need to have a little bit of both mixed in, that's what I think, is certainly there are people that I know that are all corporate all the time, and they're leaders in the industry. So it's not that that doesn't work to what I think helps. Now, if you want to be very corporate, and that's totally fine. There is one thing you can do with your content that will elevate it, which is I give a seminar, I call it Hollywood content. The idea there is to create custom graphics inside your blog posts to just dress them up put in charts, these things are called vector graphics, because they're customized your illustrations. So instead of just having paragraphs of text with sub headers and a table of contents, you actually put in some photos, and I don't even mean images, I don't mean like stock photos, but you just carry the reader through your article more visually than just the text because majority of people don't actually read the text, they scan it and they look at the headlines, they look at both just bolding certain terms inside your paragraphs will improve the readability and shareability and stuff like that.
Steve Fretzin 23:02
Yeah. And I think that's what people are missing on social media posts is it's a lot of just either straightforward writing or stock photography. I mean, I struggle with this too, because I put a lot out a lot of social media posts. And I know I need to get graphics going. And I haven't, you know, haven't done that yet, or very often. So So how do people get get that worked out? They do they need to hire an agency is that something that they can do on their own is or software for that?
Jason Ciment 23:29
Ah, there is a lot of software coming down the pike right now, that will very much speed up content generation, much better for social media. Because you can literally go to certain tools, type in a topic and generate sentences for you that are that it's pulling between AI and from trending monitoring sites. So it tells you what people are interested in. It's really scary to see how much content you can generate from a piece of AI. One thing I was going to add is that in regard to the content, one of the things that you can do is create surveys. People like numbers. So if you can, let's take that same attorney who had his 10 or 15 physicians that refer him business, if he surveyed them and ask them three questions. And he could do it all through email. They don't need to even have to spend his time doing it. He can release a survey and say here is a trend that I've identified because I spoke to 10 orthopedic surgeons, and if he wants to build his physician referral network, he can go ahead just as an example, reach out to people that he doesn't even know and say, Hey, I'm writing an article. On this particular topic. I'm doing a survey and he can expand he doesn't have to do it. He can have an assistant do it, but he can reach out and And again, it's that article that was in your book, the one that we talked about the the working handbook. Yeah, the the one that has what people are always interested in the neuroscience of everybody's favorite topic, which is me. Yeah. Therefore, if if the, if the lawyer is reaching out to a doctor and saying, hey, I want you to give me your opinion on something, you're literally serving on a silver platter, what they want to talk about, which is their opinion. So if you do that, now, you have something that is timely and trendy, and informational in the form of the survey results, that's a great way to then hand something like that to your PR agency, if you have one, they can do a press release and talk about how you run. Remember, you want to be the authority. So if you're the one who's coming out talking about a trend, you get to say that before anybody else.
Steve Fretzin 25:51
Yeah, I love that I love the idea of the survey and identifying trends, and then using that as a way to create those infographics or to create that post. And then the other thing that you just brought in is now we're leveraging our networks, our clients, etc. For a survey. But I know we had talked offline about the other piece of this, which is talking with your clients to get them to answer a question or getting them to comment or, or give input on an article or on a video or podcast or whatever. And then you've got some additional movements that you can that you can bring forward with your content because you've got someone else engaged in. Can you explain more about what we were talking about before?
Jason Ciment 26:33
Well, the idea is, when you think about content, there's three components to good content. From an online perspective, there is the message itself, and the quality of the writing, that's all connected, and the keywords that are in that content. If SEO matters, that that's that call that the the content itself, then you have the audience. So sometimes you're talking to the end user, who's the person who had the injury, if we're talking about personal injury, or the person who's going on vacation, and needs to make sure that their trust and will are all set up properly. But sometimes that audience is the intermediary, who is the insurance broker who sells insurance to the person going on vacation, or sells health insurance to the person who wants to make sure if they get into an accident, they have coverage? So you have to determine if you're talking to the unused customer, client or the intermediary. And then the third aspect is leverage, which is does the audience that you're targeting have their own fans and followers that they can share your content with that amplifies your reach? Everything is about reach when you buy an ad on Facebook, they use the term reach which is okay. Do you want to reach 2,000 people that shop and Trader Joe's? Do you want to reach 20,000, 50,000. And then let's say you found 2,000 people that shop at Trader Joe's they have something called look alike, which is okay, these people don't shop at Trader Joe's but they share the same characteristics as those 2,000. Now you can hit 20,000 or 50,000. And it won't be exactly like Trader Joe's, but it will be close enough and the cool it look alike. So when you write content, you're always operating on two planes, which is Who am I talking to? And who are they talking to?
Steve Fretzin 28:25
Yeah and the other piece of it that they've I can add on the business development piece too, is when you can get in touch with doctors or get in touch with GCS or people in power positions either on your own or through through a referral. And you're doing it for the purpose of an interview with the purpose of getting content getting a one line or something like that. But now you're talking to someone that maybe you hadn't been able to talk to before, they didn't want to talk to you about your services, because they already have a law firm. But now you're opening up the dialogue. So you're not only getting what you came to get, which is the content, the key line, the input on an article, and possibly the ability to have them expand your that that leverage, right because they have an audience. But then on top of that, you're also getting that business development edge of talking to someone that now you're building a relationship, and now they know you and you know them and now you could follow up and there might be a mutual conversation or additional conversation after the fact. So there's so many different advantages to content creation. And, Jason, you're covering a lot of ground here that I think lawyers struggle with because they don't understand how content isn't just writing an article and getting it on the blog that there's 10 other elements to it that help it to enhance your marketing or your branding or your connectivity for business development. And that's really what it's all about.
Jason Ciment 29:51
I'll as we're getting to the close here. I'll give you one analogy that I think works best is to think of an iceberg. So the iceberg What you see above the waterline is 10% of the iceberg. I'm talking about the Titanic iceberg. And 90% is below the waterline. So what you see above the waterline, that's the finished article, just by itself, it's the post. What's below the waterline? Is all the research into figuring out what to write about what's trending, who's my target audience? What's the keyword research I'm doing in order to find not just the primary keywords for search engine optimization, but what's called secondary and tertiary keywords. And there's, technically when you're writing about one thing, there are other keywords Google expects to see in that article, all of that stuff. And then the time you spend taking the article and promoting the article, whether it's through a press release, direct outreach, Facebook ads, all of that stuff is below the waterline. So when you're raising the idea that what are lawyers befuddled by it's, it's not easy to see below the waterline.
Steve Fretzin 30:59
Yeah, but what a great analogy, because again, this is this is information that is just, you know, the funneling to most of the legal community, and they're not thinking strategically the way you are the way I am. And, you know, it's critical because there's so if you do this over time, with it with a sustainable level of pressure, it affects the future, it affects your brand and affects your marketing, how you're viewed as an expert. And when you're not doing any of this, you're just sitting back cranking out hours, and I am billable. And and I'm working on everyone else's clients, you're missing the picture of what the future is going to be if you if you haven't gotten in started doing it. You might be way, way way behind everyone else, when you realize the hours are, you know, that are down or that your firm just got bought, and you're not going to be a part of it, or the 1000 other reasons why you're at risk. And so this is all this is all important stuff for people to think about and execute on. So Jason, thanks for all this great, you know, clarity and information for my audience. People want to get in touch with you. They say there's a guy who knows his stuff. I better talk to him about my firm. How do they get in touch with you?
Jason Ciment 32:06
They go to getvisible.com and they can find me there.
Steve Fretzin 32:11
And I'll put more information in the show notes as well with all your with all your details. But I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing all your knowledge and wisdom. And again, I got at least I mean, my my work. I'll show you my worksheet. I mean, this is just in 30 minutes, I must have written down 20 things. So if you're listening to this, everybody and you haven't been scrolling down No, it's not if you're driving, don't do this. But the Get back to your your home or whatever and start scrolling down some notes. There's some gems here. So definitely take advantage of it. So thank you, Jason, I appreciate you taking the time.
Jason Ciment 32:41
Appreciate having the opportunity.
Steve Fretzin 32:43
Yeah, Hey everybody. Listen. This is another opportunity to be that lawyer someone who's confident organized a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe, and we'll see you again soon.
Narrator 32:57
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frentzen.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.