In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Heather Pearce Campbell discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Collectively, we have a variety of opportunities, firms have different opportunities than solos and smaller practitioners do. But all together, we have an opportunity to be more creative about the way that we show up more creative about the way that we are in conversation with people who should be our clients." — Heather Pearce Campbell
Connect with Heather Pearce Campbell:
Website: LegalWebsiteWarrior.com & PearceLawServices.com
Email: Heather@PearceLawServices.com & Info@LegalWebsiteWarrior.com
Phone: 206-799-2539
Show: Guts, Grit & Great Business - legalwebsitewarrior.com/blog/category/podcast
Instagram: instagram.com/thelegalwebsitewarrior
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/heatherpearcecampbell
Facebook: facebook.com/HeatherPearceCampbell
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Heather Campbell 0:00
Right. So if you even look at access to Justice Statistics and things about, you know what consumers of legal services need versus what we're providing, like we still are in an industry that has massive opportunity.
Narrator 0:20
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:44
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. hope everybody's having a great day. My name is Steve Fretzin and I am the founder and president of flexin Inc, where we work with attorneys to help them grow their law practices one way or the other. Generally, I put people through some pretty rigorous training and coaching to help them plan and execute and achieve levels that maybe they haven't even considered are possible, which is a wonderful, fun thing to do. And you can find more about me at Fretzin.com but on to the more important subject, which is that I've got an amazing guest today. And Heather Pearce Campbell. She's the founder of Pearce law. And she is the legal website warrior. How are you doing, Heather?
Heather Campbell 1:25
I'm doing great. Good to see you again, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 1:28
It's nice to see you as well. In your you're not in Chicago, are you?
Heather Campbell 1:32
I'm not I'm over in Seattle
Steve Fretzin 1:34
In Seattle, so is it? It's not raining today? Is that the thing about Seattle that everybody just assumes.
Heather Campbell 1:41
Right? They do. And then they come here in the summer. And they're shocked at like, it's beautiful. It's not raining, and then they want to move here. And so that's you know, that's kind of the trick is
Steve Fretzin 1:52
I did I did that I did the trip two years ago with my wife and we loved it. And we had great weather. We had some great sushi and some delicious food. And we wanted all over the place. And it's a beautiful, beautiful city. So
Heather Campbell 2:05
It's a good spot. It's a good spot you have to visit not in the summer to get the real flavor for what the weather's typically like. We gets boiled we get spoiled.
Steve Fretzin 2:15
And you know, everybody says Chicago so cold and last few last winter wasn't that bad. So yeah, figure Great. So I would love to hear more about your background and about your the two businesses that you're running now. Would you mind sharing that with us?
Heather Campbell 2:29
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm based here in Seattle, I've practiced law for 18 years or so. The first 12 years of practice, were really primarily in real estate, land use and business law, heavy and litigation, but it was actually fairly equal between, you know, litigation, transactional work. And about five, six years ago, I really well, I was I had become a mom. So that was one of the shifts in my journey. But also, I just was looking at the work that I was doing, and the folks that I really love to work with, and looking pretty heavily at our industry about what wasn't working, you know, opportunities that we had to do things better. And so it's about that time that I launched the idea of my second business. So, you know, you and I have spoken before, but I've basically got two businesses, right, I've got my legal practice. And then I have a second business that I started that is an online information and education business. And I launched that as a way to serve clients that I was already serving, but who were just typically across the board, not well served by the traditional legal industry. And so I thought, you know, I can create a set of tools, education resources that will serve these folks and help them become the client I would like them to become right so put me kind of on a dual path, but I've got basically got two ways of serving the same individuals and now that's really my primary focus group is entrepreneurs online information people.
Steve Fretzin 4:08
Very cool and what's just for fun, what's something that most people don't know about you?
Heather Campbell 4:13
Oh, gosh, that most people don't know about me. So I was an avid avid snowboarder in college. I went to school at Utah State University. And the the funny precursor to this story is I actually had a neck injury I had bought a season pass, right I'm in the Utah mountains. I literally live on the canyon road that goes up to the slopes. I was at Utah State at the time, and I had a neck injury and my doctors told me I can't do anything. You can't do any physical activity. You can't like definitely don't do anything risky, you know, all of this kind of stuff. And I was a student at the time and so I went to get a refund on the season pass which I had never used. And they refused to give it to me. And so I was like okay, You're going to be that like, and I literally changed my whole school schedule. And I lived on the slopes that season. So I went up and I, I did my schooling strictly on Tuesday, Thursday, like all day I was in school Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I rearranged my classes. I had no classes. I lived on the slopes. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday for the entire season.
Steve Fretzin 5:23
Yeah, no, no problem with the neck after that. No.
Heather Campbell 5:28
All right. So that was that was a dream live for a while because it literally was just living outdoors in the mountains in the snow and Utah snow. And it was one of those seasons like every day you got up and it was fresh powder fresh, like
Steve Fretzin 5:43
So nice.
Heather Campbell 5:44
Yeah, it was amazing. So that was a fun. That was a fun time.
Steve Fretzin 5:48
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. I love I love to ski my son's into snowboarding and and now we're all like, how's he going to get to the slopes and how, you know, he usually goes in the group on a bus. So we're all trying to finagle and figure out like how we're going to make it work this season. But But I think, you know, skiing and snowboarding. I mean, that's fairly safe, as long as you don't have to write I guess, spent too much time going inside getting equipment or something.
Heather Campbell 6:10
Totally, yes. No, it seems like something that you'd actually, you know, maybe be able to do this year. That's right.
Steve Fretzin 6:20
So let's get into the into the nuts and bolts here of you know, what are your kind of your thoughts on what's going on in the legal industry? And I guess we could either say pre pandemic or now but just generally speaking, what what are your thoughts on the current state?
Heather Campbell 6:33
Well, yes, I mean, it is interesting to look at this conversation through the lens of the pandemic, now, because it was important before and now it's critical, right? So, I mean, my thoughts on the industry is, and these are not going to be new to people. But you know, we're in a slow moving fairly traditional industry and the the struggle that I've seen for years, and I've always considered myself a little bit of an outsider in the industry, because I didn't come from, like, I never thought about becoming a lawyer. There's no lawyers in my family. I didn't know anybody who was a lawyer, like it was just something that ended up being a fit. But you know, I've really kind of crafted my own career, my own practice since I graduated law school, and, and I love our industry. And I see the numerous ways that we really missed the mark. Right? So if you even look at Access to Justice Statistics and things about, you know, what consumers of legal services need, versus what we're providing, like, we still are in an industry that has massive opportunity, massive opportunity, if we would slightly shift our focus, shift the way that we show up and serve people. And, you know, the interesting thing is, when people think about law, I think most even consumers think about big law, right? They're thinking about attorneys that are sitting inside big fancy law firms. And while that's certainly a percentage of the industry, you know, I think it's more than 50% of the practicing attorneys are solos and small practitioners, right? collectively, we have a variety of opportunities, firms have different opportunities than solos and smaller practitioners do. But all together, we have an opportunity to be more creative about the way that we show up more creative about the way that we are in conversation with people who should be our clients. Right. And I think that now the pandemic, I'm sure has brought more clarity to attorneys who were not really thinking about it before. And I've had to make major shifts in the way that they practice the way that they connect with people, their marketing, right. So there's, there's lots to look at. But But the biggest gap is that I think we have a much bigger opportunity than we realize to be more creative in the way that we do our work.
Steve Fretzin 8:55
That's mainly around marketing. There's, you know, 100 estate planners in a row and how are they differentiating? And how are they making their website unique? And how are they you know, again, standing out the crowd, what's what's something that you put them through a what's kind of the process to try to identify how to take someone and make them stand out?
Heather Campbell 9:19
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, the question I would ask is, where are your people spending time? Right? It used to be that a lot of attorneys could simply rely on being good at their work, right. And while that certainly helps, like getting referrals and having a referral based business helps, but we know that most people go online right now, if they need an attorney. They're using Google like everybody else, and they're getting online and they're looking and so where are they looking? And where are they spending time because if you can show up and be in conversation with them, before they even know what they need, right? Before they are even doing some of the googling, and, and trying to figure out what they need, you are going to be steps ahead of somebody who is relying on some of the more traditional methods of marketing. And so, you know, I'm asking a lot of my colleagues and people that I'm in conversation with, like, Where are you speaking? Where are you getting yourself in the door as a featured expert on a certain topic that people need to hear about, you know, what online assets are you creating, that are consumable and that are going to set you up as a featured expert in the space that your peers are not doing? You know, are you creating content on YouTube? Are you being in video discussions with people? Are you going live online? Like, what ways are you showing up to be in the conversation so that people are already looking to you as the expert in your space?
Steve Fretzin 10:52
And then they look at you? And they say, I'm not doing any of that? What are you talking about? Does that sound about right? I karamba.
Heather Campbell 11:01
Totally.
Steve Fretzin 11:03
So again, you know, you might have to you might have to do some some serious, you know, deep questioning to try to identify where they could be now, where maybe not where they've been, but at the end of the day, I think you're right. I mean, you have to identify your audience, you have to identify what their needs are. And you need to make sure that you put yourself in front of them before and at the time that they need you. So I think that's really, really great. The other thing that I think about when I think about like differentiators, okay, and this is not rocket science free, but at the same time, everyone knows it's hard to come up with a differentiator. I mean, it took me three years to figure out that I wanted to focus, you know, exclusively on the legal market. And that was only after I realized that 80% of my business was from lawyers and law firms. So, differentiators don't necessarily happen overnight. But the two of the two that I put people through sort of is what I consider like the litmus test is, what do you do you know, better than anyone else? And that no one else is saying about themselves, right? So if I'm doing something unique, and no one else is talking about it, then I think that's something that can be marketed or promoted. And then the other thing is, it has to be something people care about. I mean, if I hand out, you know, fancy coffee mugs, no one else is doing that. But that's also because nobody cares about coffee mugs. Right? So so what what are some thoughts on differentiation in in working with a lawyer to help help them stand out?
Heather Campbell 12:24
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a powerful question, because you're right, I think it's, I think it partly depends, I mean, a couple things on your practice on how much decision making power you have over like, Are you one of a 50 Person firm? You know, the mean? And how much do you have to create your own market for your practice? Right, some people rely on their firm for the referrals. And so I think it partly depends on, you know, the world that you're operating in, when it comes to your own practice. But the more that you have some authority and some voice and some control over how you do your marketing, how you show up, etc, the differentiation piece is key. And what I tell people is, don't be afraid to niche down, right, don't be afraid to get very very niched in your messaging and in the conversations that you put into the marketplace, because you can create so much momentum by becoming the go to person doing a very, very specific thing, versus competing in the big waters of a very generalized area. Right. And I think people can get really hesitant around niching, around drag, trying to figure out what is it that I am, you know, going to put my stake in the ground on?
Steve Fretzin 13:40
It can be scary. I mean, here you are working, you know, and maybe you're doing four or five different general practice, you know, areas, instead of doing one really, really well. Or maybe you're, you're you know, 75% of your business is in a particular industry, but you're not ready to put your chips in. So I think that that, yeah, sometimes they just have to be convinced, based on data staffs experience, a good marketing angle, that this is the direction to go. And it doesn't mean that you have to give up everything, but I think, right, it's something that can be pushed and nudged through, you know, the channels that you create Heather to, to get them, you know, noticed.
Heather Campbell 14:21
Absolutely well, and as an example, I mean, I'll use my second business as an example. Right. So I set about to create an online information and education business that targets the audience that I serve, and to provide a lot of, you know, advanced education, a lot of folks that I serve, I mean, and I think this is fairly true across the board, I call, you know, our legal model is the black box legal model. It's really hard for a lot of consumers of legal services to get inside the black box. You have to find an attorney, you have to like hopefully have an attorney that you know, like and trust. That's a very high hurdle for a lot of people. And we can go over some statistics on, you know, because I think one of the problems with our industry is, we have this tremendous gap between perception of attorneys and like who attorneys really are, and what we're here to do. And I can, I could go way deep down that hole, but I want for now. So I think it's really, really important. And what was I saying right before that already wanted to go down that hole.
Steve Fretzin 15:27
What you were talking about going, you know, going deeper, but that's ...
Heather Campbell 15:31
On the on the niching, right on the niching. And putting our messaging out in the world, it's, it's really important to know who we're talking to know, the problems that are some of the biggest problems that people face, and be willing to educate on those. First, it's about breaking the blackbox legal model, right, that's where I was being able to give a lot of value first and not charge for everything. I mean, I think attorneys are trapped in this model where they feel like they need to charge for everything that they do. And you can give so much value, and have that value come back to you in huge ways if you're willing to really re examine the model that you're playing in. And so for me, for example, serving entrepreneurs that I call information entrepreneurs, they're largely in the online space, one of the big concerns that everybody has in that space is like, What don't I know about having an online business? What do I need to protect, because the online business for them, if they're not in the traditional world of business, is the hub, it's their, you know, their home base, and they don't know what to do about how to protect all of this stuff, nor largely talking about smaller entrepreneurs, smaller businesses, we're not talking about Starbucks of the world, right? So I did my branding, specifically to target the niche of of entrepreneurs and small businesses that I could serve, that are concerned about their online presence, right. And so I branded myself, the legal website warrior. So people know me as that, even though that's not just what I do, I don't just help businesses and entrepreneurs with their online stuff, I do a lot more than that. But my branding is very, very specific to that pain point. And, and it works. I can connect with folks who, you know, should be my clients and are making plenty of money, and they may not yet be ready to pull the trigger on legal, but they'll come back to me in a year, because they remember my branding.
Steve Fretzin 17:23
Yeah. And that's, that's really great.
Heather Campbell 17:24
That's the power of niching. That's the power of, you know, people really deciding what is their message going to be around that gets their foot in the door, even if they do a lot more than just that.
Steve Fretzin 17:36
And, you know, it's so clear, when you think about, you know, the lawyers that have done this properly, right. And so here in Chicago, there's, you know, a handful of names that every lawyer knows, in every, you know, little niche to, you know, there's no other name that comes up, like they've done a really good job of branding themselves and winning cases and owning that niche that industry, to the point where we're just there's, you know, there's this one person, and then there's everyone else. And so I think that lawyers, you know, really need to consider to get help, you know, people like you, and that, that can that can really draw that out and help them create that around themselves so that they can have that longevity and that sustainability through proper marketing.
Heather Campbell 18:18
Yeah. Well, the struggle, I think one of the struggles that our industry faces is that, like, literally, at least in my experience, I went to u dub law here in Washington, they don't teach any business basics, like you go to law school, and you learn how to analyze a case you learn how to write, and I don't know, I hope this is changing. You know, I was in law school 20 years ago, but I hope that this is changing because business fundamentals, like attorneys end up having to learn this stuff on the fly, right. And if they don't already have a business background, or have this kind of stuff built into them naturally. Like you got to piece this together, as you're, you know, building your practice, as you're building your business or, or maybe at a point of transition in your career. If you worked at a firm and then you decide you want to do something different and go work on your own. Like, you've got to suddenly scramble and piece all this stuff together and figure it out. And so it's you know, looking around and studying, not what other law firms are doing, studying what other businesses are doing, and what they're doing well is what I recommend to people.
Steve Fretzin 19:25
Okay, and I've got I've got a bit of a curveball question for you. But But I think you'll you'll be, you know, you're the warrior, so I'm sure you can handle this. One thing that I've identified with lawyers, and this, this could be said about a lot of different groups of people or just people in general that because they're not in the space, they don't really, they don't really understand the value for the money. So I'll give you an example. I need to put a contract together for for something and I asked a lawyer and he quotes me, let's say $10,000 for a contract. I think it's a contract that is boilerplate and can be Slap together and they're going to use someone else's contract for me and I have all these preconceived notions about what it is. And so I don't see the value in $10,000 for that contract. And so there, you know, therefore, I just I don't do it or I try to do it myself, which is going to be a mistake or I go cheap on it ends up being the wrong contract. So flip that to lawyers looking for proper website, proper marketing, something that's going to get done right the first time, how do you walk them through that value proposition? Because that's, that's a tough thing. You know, they there's so many Do It Yourself type, you know, Squarespace, etc, that they can they can try to put up something, but it's never gonna work the same way if they want any kind of results. So that was a very long setup, to have you chime in with kind of how do you how you play that out with them?
Heather Campbell 20:47
Yes, no, it's a real it's a really important question. I mean, I deal with the same question even with my clients and building their own businesses. And, you know, there's, I have a couple thoughts on this. One is you absolutely should not be outsourcing or hiring somebody to do something, unless you are really clear on what it is, what the plan is, what your goals are, like, I think a lot of people get themselves into trouble because they're literally just trying to offload the decision making, right like, oh, you're in the website space, you could put together with like, no backtrack. And do like a little advanced planning goes a long way, when you're talking about trying to build out, you know, proper tools for your business. And, and I think it's a slippery slope, because we don't want to have to master it, right, we don't want to have to be the doer and all of these categories. But to be able to make effective decisions, I think you need to study a topic for a while, you need to examine what's going on in the landscape, you need to, you know, become somewhat familiar with the options so that you can make a solid decision and that investment will pay off. And again, I would look outside of just the legal industry, certainly, you can look around at peers and colleagues that are doing things that are happening and are going really well. And you can observe in the marketing space, what you like, what you don't like what feels authentic to your voice or to your firm, you know, choose tools, choose to work with people who are aligned with your mission and the way that you want to show up. And this is really important in marketing in the online space. But don't pull the trigger too soon. And I think a lot of people pull the trigger too soon.
Steve Fretzin 22:31
Right. And again, if you hire the wrong, and I've done this, I mean, I'm living breathing experience of mistakes that I've made over the years hiring the wrong people to help me with marketing. And these days, you know, I'm going to call their references, I'm going to make sure I talk to people and and I really get that I want them to get me Yeah, and get what I'm trying to accomplish and be I want to make sure that they're valid that they have experience. I met with a marketing guy one time, he's all Yeah, I do legal, legal websites, I do this. And I was like, so what, what examples? Do you have what what law firms say? Well, you know, that's confidential. Okay. Do you is there there's nothing you can show me, there's not one website that you put together that can demonstrate you've done a law firm website? Well, that's, you know, that's under construction? Well, you're done. Yeah, you know, if you're not going to, if you can't validate anything with me, then then, you know, I'm out of the loop. But But here's the other thing that I and I teach this to my clients. And I've worked with tons of marketing companies in the past, but but focusing on lawyers, it's the same thing. And that is in the discovery step or in the discovery process, where you're asking questions, and you're learning about their practice. And, you know, there's, there's a value per client, right? I mean, if it's an estate planner, and it's 30 $500, for an estate plan with a trust, or it's someone that's doing litigation that could range from, you know, x to y to z, and, you know, the marketing is going to get them results or get them leads or get them new business that they're not currently getting, there's a number associated to that. And they have to be able to understand and see what the return on investment is on, you know, a 10,000 $20,000 website or marketing, that that's nothing in the grand scheme compared to the sustainability, the marketing, the branding, and the lead generation that can occur. And they don't see it, they just go Jesus 20,000 that's a lot of money. Well, it is. But if I gave you a million dollars back, you'd probably be okay with it. So now, granted, that hasn't happened, right. You're still in the kind of the discussion process. But how do you go through the with that with them to try to have them sort of see the path before before they've taken the leap with you?
Heather Campbell 24:40
Yeah, well, and I mean, you're right. I think the numbers are really important. And this gets back to just sound decision making. Right? So, you know, when I'm in discussion with folks and you know, even in my own business, I have to look at what have I done to date that works right and understand those numbers and be real Be really clear that our job always if we're managing our own practice, if we're running a legal business, is to make decisions that build that business that serve our clients. And that, you know, hopefully helps our numbers and helps our clients numbers all the way around, you know, there's only so much you can do to hedge all your bets, right? The the flip side of this coin is that sometimes we are just going to make decisions in the business building process, that are not perfect decisions. I mean, last year, I spent 10,000 bucks on its tech team that did not perform, right. And I, I tried to do my due diligence. But ultimately, at the end of the day, what I learned is, I needed to know more before I hired them, so that I could be really, really clear on what I was hiring.
Steve Fretzin 25:47
There's a level of due diligence that people try to avoid, because again, they just want, they just want to snap their fingers and make it happen. And I think that these days, we're in the world of Yelp, or the world of urban spoon, we're in the world of movie reviews, whatever it is, right? We make decisions based on other people's experiences. And if you can get it for people you trust, or if there's enough testimonials, there's enough, you know, information that says this is the right person. And by the way, you know, you're in a visual space. I mean, I can look at your websites, I can see that you're putting together quality stuff, that's much better than, you know, site under construction, or, or where there's no validation. So I think that's really important for for everyone to sort of know employers to I think, you know, you said know, like and trust, I agree, right, and they have to they have to get that validation. Now more than ever. It's kind of how we buy.
Heather Campbell 26:39
Yeah, it is absolutely how we buy. And to your point, I think that's a really good point that, as you know, as lawyers, building our own businesses, working with reputable sources that will help us build company like ask around, talk to your peers, reach out to somebody, even if you don't know them, but you've observed their legal business online, and they're doing a good job, like reach out and find out who they're using. It's absolutely what I recommend to my clients who are building businesses is if you're looking for a CPA or a tax, you know, somebody to help you with your tax strategy. Look ahead, like two steps ahead, who is a business that you follow, that you are modeling your own business after, like, ask around, find out who they're using to support that business growth, right. And that's how you can get connected with reputable sources that will help you build your own business.
Steve Fretzin 27:34
So speaking of reputable sources that help entrepreneurs grow their businesses, right? How do people get in touch with you? what's what's the digits that you could put out there? so people could reach out and say, Hey, I want to check out what others doing?
Heather Campbell 27:45
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm always happy to have a chat. I mean, I did a presentation like the the gift that I wanted to give away was actually the slides for the presentation I did a couple years ago at the Maryland State Bar Association, on this topic, right? How to think about building your legal business, from the perspective of a business owner, not an attorney. But if people wanted to get in touch, I'm happy to have a chat. You're welcome to email me You can reach me at either Heather@Pearcelawservices.com which is Pearce is the unusual spelling P E, A, R C, E, or info@legalwebsitewarrior.com, just how it sounds. And then my phone number, if you want to call me I'm an old fashioned telephone person, I call people all the time out of the blue. And I spend a lot of time on the phone, and zoom, of course. But yeah, I'm happy to give out my phone number which is 206-799-2539. So you're welcome to just reach out. And I'd be very happy to have a chat.
Steve Fretzin 28:43
And please check out the show notes because we'll all have all that information there as well. So it's easy to easy to kind of find. But I want to thank you for taking some time and sharing your expertise with with me and with my audience. And it's just much appreciated and your your your terrific talent. So I'm happy that you're able to come on the show.
Heather Campbell 29:01
Oh, thank you, Steve. It's so good to be here. I'm always happy to tell I have I want to backtrack this for a minute because I have such a big heart for attorneys and the work that we do in the world. And this piece about you know, people having a disconnect between who lawyers are and what they do you know, the statistic 74% of people dread the thought of talking to a lawyer 74% a big, big percentage and 72% will say that most lawyers will try to take advantage of you know, this, like we have a public perception problem. And this came from a 2012 study done by commissioned by legal shield done by an analytics company that they hired. The reality of our industry, though, like when I got ready and I've spoken several times on this topic, and I interviewed I did a survey to hundreds of lawyers in my state which I believe are representative of the industry nationwide, like 95% when I asked them questions about why they got into law, right, and I asked them all the reasons like Are you here to make money? Are you here to do whatever 95 to 98% answered, they were good at solving problems. And they wanted to help people solve problems, like, that's it, we have people who are problem solvers and want to do good work. And yet the perception of the industry is not aligned with who attorneys actually are. And so my fundamental belief just even about being more creative in the way that we show up to practice, practice law and deliver our services and provide value in the marketplace is, we have a massive opportunity to shift that public perception.
Steve Fretzin 30:43
Well, let me let me add to that. And we'll wrap up with this that the way that lawyers sell today, the way that they've sold for 100 years has been making the pitch and and talking about their their how great they are at what they do and how they can solve the problems and all this stuff. And what I'm teaching every day is what I call sales, free selling. It's also the name of my first book. And it really talks about a better way to walk a buyer through a buying decision. So we're talking about relationship building, we're talking about questioning, being very consultative, being a better listener, not a talker, a better listener, and being empathetic because people have problems they need empathy. And this is how buyers want to buy today. They don't want to be sold to I hate sales. I hate being sold too soon as someone starts selling to me I'm out like I don't I don't want to play that game and I don't want to that's not interesting to me or or fun. No, it's not fun. Use be fun to buy a car. It's never fun to buy a car. You know, it's it's just horrible these days. For those of you who are interested in learning more, you know, check out my website flex and calm. I also have three books on Amazon sales, free selling, which I just mentioned, the attorneys networking Handbook, and the ambitious attorney. So with that, I'm going to wrap up thanks again Heather. I appreciate it.
Heather Campbell 32:01
Great to connect Steve I'm so grateful that your resources are in the marketplace.
Steve Fretzin 32:06
I appreciate that yours as well and I will just let everyone know that it's time to wrap up and look you know, follow the tips keep listening to the show it's it's great if you can get to be that lawyer someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Everybody be safe, take care, appreciate your spend some time with us. Bye Bye.
Narrator 32:31
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes