In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Gerry Riskin discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"We need to relate to our people with enough depth, that we honestly understand what they're enduring. We want peak performance from them, we want them to remain at their very best, but in order to do that, they have to believe of us that we care about them, and we're being considerate, and we're appreciative." — Gerry Riskin
Connect with Gerry Riskin:
Website: edge.ai & gerryriskin.com
Book: gerryriskin.com/publications
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gerryriskin
Twitter: twitter.com/riskin
Facebook: facebook.com/gerryriskin
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Gerry Riskin 0:00
You have to articulate at least to yourself, and to Steve, if he asks, Who do you want to serve? What is this clientele you want to serve? Hopefully it's overlapping with people, you know how to serve a little bit? Sure. And number two, what do you want to do for them? And if you're being critical of the firm, where you now are, what could you do better?
Narrator 0:26
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:48
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, in your host, and I'm just so happy that you're joining me today, as you know, frets and focuses on helping lawyers with really two things. Number one is we help them through coaching and training programs that dramatically increase their ability to grow business in an efficient way. And the second thing we do is we do Rainmaker roundtables and business development roundtables, where we'll allow lawyers to work together as a team to help each other solve problems and work together for accountability. And not feel so alone or stuck. You have people in your corner, and there are other lawyers that do other things. And everyone's highly ambitious and ready to rock and roll. So if any of those sound like they might be of interest to you, feel free to check out my website at frets and calm or reach out to me directly at Stephen fretts. And calm, happy to chat. And now on to bigger and better and more wonderful things. I have an old friend of mine from many years ago that I reconnected with. And the reason is, is because he's awesome. And I know he's going to add a lot of value in your life and give you a lot of great takeaways. He is the CO founding partner of Edge International. He's the author of the successful lawyer. He's been doing this for 38 years, and probably then some, I'd like to introduce scary risk. And how's it going, Gerry?
Gerry Riskin 1:59
It's going well, how are you, Steve?
Steve Fretzin 2:00
I'm doing just swell. We're finally getting some decent weather in Chicago and things are looking up. So I appreciate that. How about yourself what's happening in your neck of the woods.
Gerry Riskin 2:09
It is gorgeous in Anguilla, British West Indies, unless we get a storm that will kill us it is usually
Steve Fretzin 2:15
There's that one thing that that helped me thing. But other than that..
Gerry Riskin 2:21
Other than that, and I know I share with the world that we're all a little tired of fighting this pandemic. And my little global consultancy includes a colleague in India. And I learned even more early this morning, my time the challenges they're facing. So I wish everyone in India and everywhere else that's really struggling right now and suffering. I wish them the best.
Steve Fretzin 2:45
Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully this whole thing will be in our rearview mirror in the next six months. So that's Fingers crossed. But Jerry, back to you. Let's talk a little bit about your background give a Reader's Digest version, because you've got quite a pretty amazing background in the legal space.
Gerry Riskin 3:01
Well, when I was 11 years old, for reasons we don't have to dive into, I decided I didn't want to be alert. I had to be a lawyer. It wasn't a choice at 11 1111 years of age and nice. And everything I did since every class I chose every counselor I spoke to about options I had, every every decision I made regarding pre law, with school, all that every decision was predicated on the fact that I had to be a lawyer. Well, that came to be and that's wonderful. But on the way in my business school, I got very much into marketing, psychology, sociology, organizational development, in addition to all the math, and I fell in love with that stuff. And so when I was privileged to Article I'm a Canadian lawyer. So I articled with 100 year old, wonderful firm, I realized that as good as they were, and then they were the best, they were the best you were ever going to find. Even to this day, they didn't really have any idea what business was, or what those business books were talking about. So I'll give you a kind of an interim punchline. I think you're talking to an interpreter because after practicing law for the better part of 20 years, being a managing partner of a Canadian and Hong Kong law firm, and founding edge International, which is a global consultancy, when people ask me what I do, I more than anything else interpret business principles in a way that the leaders of law firms can assimilate comfortably?
Steve Fretzin 4:34
Hmm. Well, that's a very interesting kind of roundabout way to get there. But when you have all that experience in background, then you know what allows for you to really take ownership of how you're going to help people and so I'd love to hear about what edge international does. What do you do? What does it mean consultancy? Can you define that further for the audience?
Gerry Riskin 4:54
Yes, I'm pleased to do that. I guess in a sense, we're like the old country doctor. You Because if it involves a law firm, how its structured, how its governed, how it competes for clients, how it satisfies its clients, how it holds us culture together, et cetera, then it's in our world. And I'm privileged to have a team of superstars. I'm not exaggerating, with amazing backgrounds, and we collaborate globally, on our assignments. And it's just so much fun. And so rewarding. And I will add this, unlike some who want to serve the legal profession, because they think it might be lucrative, I serve the legal profession, because I love the legal profession. And my heart goes out to those who are struggling and find it harder and harder to do what lawyers need to do. So it's, it's a passion, and I'm privileged to do it.
Steve Fretzin 5:46
Well, my heart goes out to and so does my content. That's why we're doing this show. You know, it's it's all the lawyers out there that are feeling alone, and they're feeling like, you know, this is really hard stuff. And can we make it digestible? Can we make it easier for them to figure out that doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how to go and be an effective networker or develop, you know, relationships? So, but you know, I guess, in the grand scheme of things, I mean, how have you seen the law firm? The practice of law in law firms change in the last 20 years? Like what's been the big thing, that sweeping change that you've seen in that time?
Gerry Riskin 6:23
Well, I don't like to focus just on the bigger firms, but they lead in certain ways. They become far more specialized, they've learned that organizing into more niche practice groups, and doing that better understanding industries better accrues to their benefit, the sadness I have, is that the new lawyers in and you know, I don't want to sound like that old guy. But still, the new lawyers are not getting enough experience across a spectrum of practice areas, because darn it, when the patient walks into the doctor's office, the patient wants to know, can you help me as a person? Not? Okay, I know you specialize in toes. And so when you deal with my big toe, I know we'll be done. It's not good enough. And I'll give you a one quick punchline on that. I have represented leaders of law firms, who almost got criminally charged by having no idea what criminal law was no idea that if they bent the rules a little bit trying to settle a matter a civil matter, on behalf of a client, that they were getting into interference with the administration of justice or even extortion. So I'm enthusiastic about Hey, could we still allow lawyers to have a good cross section of education and experience, so they know what the patient is, and they know when to call in the specials?
Steve Fretzin 7:47
And I think, you know, my father came up in the 70s 80s and 90s, practicing law and being a generalist. But being a really good generalist. I mean, understanding most areas of law fairly well, in this stuff that was highly specialized, you know, he would always farm out. And that seems to really have gone away. And I think there's a reason why right? I mean, a specialization is sort of the hot ticket here. That doesn't mean you have to be ignorant to the other areas that are circle you or surround you, right? Is that kind of the gist?
Gerry Riskin 8:15
Yeah. And let's shine a light on something that's not as beautiful as maybe we would like and that is the pressure, the pressure is to Bill, have those billable hours have that revenue, and back in your dad's prime practice days, and it sounds just wonderful in terms of his perspective, if he needed to bring somebody onto the team, either from a different jurisdiction geographically, or for a different specialty, he would do it, because that's what he perceived a great lawyer would do. And today, would our firm be upset with us, if we talked about, you know, utilizing a lawyer from a different firm with a specialty and having them clocked billable hours, it gets to be a little tough.
Steve Fretzin 9:00
So we just want to figure out how to do it internally, even if they don't have the exact specialist.
Gerry Riskin 9:05
It's also a cultural thing. I mean, in Canada, back in my early days, you would not think of doing a matter in a different province without having a lawyer from that province. So if we use the word state, in today's terms, a lawyer in state number three is going to do anything it takes to do anything in any state. It's not gonna farm stuff out. And that's not really beneficial to the profession, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole because 99% of our lawyers are great. They're trying to do the right thing and they are doing great stuff. So I'm not going to go negative here.
Steve Fretzin 9:40
Okay, I think that's a good direction for us to go. And it's a good lead in to an article that I read of yours lately. That was leadership, agility in the face of fragility, and I wanted to just ask you about why some leaders fail and others succeed. What's making a great law firm leader today and what is the problem with some leaders that are trying to run firms.
Gerry Riskin 10:01
While cutting to the chase, I think that many of our leaders suffer from having been given beautiful minds, they are so intelligent, they think so well, they're so articulate, they can persuade. And what they try to do is think through everything, and try to make the right decisions and do the right things. They're not as good at listening. They're not as good at observing. So for example, the article to which you refer certainly was the result of this pandemic, in large measure. And the fact of the matter is that the world was thrown into chaos. And many leaders simply tried to intellectually plow through it. So it's some of them managed by email, horrible mistake, some of them insulted their teams, not meaning to just being insensitive to what those team members were facing.
Steve Fretzin 10:58
Yeah. And so what were some let's keep it positive, then what were what are some of the attributes that you observe in successful leaders, leaders that so you said listening, understanding, observing? And how do they put that into practice in running a firm?
Gerry Riskin 11:14
They put that into practice, by the manner, or the way in which they manage, for example, I made fun of managing by email or memo that just just a horrible mistake. So what's the positive story? The positive story is managing by communicating with people. And communication is a two way street. If I asked you, Steve, how are you? And let's just play? How are you, Steve?
Steve Fretzin 11:41
I'm doing wonderfully. Thank you. How are you?
Gerry Riskin 11:44
I'm doing well, too. Thank you, Steve, I care about you. You know, you mentioned you and I have known each other a long time we're friends reunited. What's been the toughest part of this pandemic, in terms of you personally, what's the toughest part you've had to endure?
Steve Fretzin 12:00
Ah, I don't have a real dark path to go down with that. But I would say it's just been disconnected from people. I think I'm a I'm not a hugger. But I definitely like physical contact. I like shaking hands. I like interacting with people and engaging them with in close quarters. And, you know, especially my clients. And so I that's really been in my family. That's been a bit of a problem, obviously.
Gerry Riskin 12:23
So I won't go too much further, I promise to go one more little inch, when you can't have that intimacy, even though those hugs for what has become a protected, protracted period of time. How's that? weigh on you? How's that make you feel
Steve Fretzin 12:38
isolated, and, you know, a little insular, and I'm hiding out in my little man cave office, you know, not getting the social interaction that I crave as an extrovert, and as someone who likes to be out in front of people. So it's been I think, maybe I'm, you know, that's possible. If we want to get into the psychology of it, I might be bearing some emotions that, you know, show itself in various ways. Yeah, exactly.
Gerry Riskin 13:03
So, Steve, thank you. Thank you. Because you, you, you, you've opened up and so on. And for the listeners, where did we just go, we started with, how are you doing fine, you're doing well, I'm doing well, it was good. It was good. But I just probed a little bit, and you weren't sure how far you wanted to go. In fact, you You didn't even want the idea of the dark path, you didn't even think I have a dark path. But when I gently pushed with caring, there was at least something that wasn't the most wonderful it was going on. It's been protracted, and it has a bit of an effect on you. Okay, what's the punch line here. If you and I work together in the same firm, day in day out, if you were my managing partner, or yours, or we were in the same group or whatever, that's the point. We need to relate to our people with enough deaths, that we honestly understand what they're enduring. Because Because we want peak performance from them, we want them to remain at their very best. But in order to do that, they have to believe of us that we care about them. And we're being considerate, and we're appreciative. So if one of our team members works their tail off, let's save steamed again, using use the example. You know, you produce so much high quality product that your podcast is fantastic. I know it would be gone. I had a little listen. And the content is amazing. And you're a brilliant post. And you're a brilliant questioner. So here you are producing and you said a moment ago that you're producing quality for those lawyers who are listening to this who want to know, how do I do stuff? How do I get by if I'm feeling a little alone and a little isolated? So see how that all comes together? If we have any.
Steve Fretzin 14:55
Yeah, go ahead. It does, Jerry but I think what you're talking about is I mean, I have to believe that's a learned. I mean, I teach it in business development, because lawyers want to go in and solve, and lawyers want to go in and pitch. And that's what they're driven to do lock up that business. And I'm teaching the very opposite. I'm teaching things like listening, understanding, questioning, empathy, you know, skills that, that connect you with the prospective client, not sell the prospective client, and you're talking about doing this, as a managing partner, as a partner, as a friend within the firm and connecting people. And I teach it as a skill. Is this something that lawyers need to learn? And because I don't know that many do managing partners, I don't know what the percentage is 25% or 50, that they're able to do this or even think about doing this kind of an approach or connecting it that kind of level?
Gerry Riskin 15:45
You know, I know, I'm an optimist. And I told you, I love the profession. I'm going to give you a quick example from the strategy world. And by the way, I think, Steve, when you're counseling, the folks, you're helping with business development, you're teaching them the things you just listed, that you are enlightening them and exposing them. And that's kind of where my punchline is going. I have a slide that I show at the early stages of a strategic assignment. And I say, these are our default propensities as lawyers were critical. And we're analytical. We we hunt for risk with a fragrance of risk and gets us excited. And we don't like it, we hate it. And if somebody gives us a postulates a theory, we will our mind will take us to how and in what circumstances might that be wrong? Right? Okay, that's the default pattern. It makes us have noxious at social functions, drives our significant others mad even children if we have them. So So I show that then I show the other list. What about the entrepreneur, the business person, perhaps that we're allowed to serve? If we have such clients? How did they come at this? Well, they're critical and analytical, but not until after they've assimilated some information and explored whether there's any benefit to this cockamamie idea that they just heard, maybe there's some value there, they also understand risk. So for example, I'm not sure what the right thing is to do. But I'm not going to bet the farm and I'm not going to take the firm down, I might try something I might on a limited scope basis. And let's just see how people react to it. Now, we're getting to the point, mercifully, with those two lists, this is our lawyer brain, if I can put it that way. And this is our entrepreneurial brain, I postulate, I look at my clients. And I say, guess what, you can toggle between these two lists as fast as you can snap your finger, it is just a matter of being or being willing to do it. And I have managing partners who for whom I've done this process, who indeed start meetings on certain subjects by saying we're starting with risk and slide. And this is a business meeting. It's not a lawyer meeting. So let's remember what the rules are here. So that's my optimistic approach, I think. And by the way, I do need one little punch line more. If you're operating me on me in the morning, if you're opening me up and taking my appendix out, I want you to be a perfectionist. And I want you to be critical and analytical as heck. And I don't want to experiment. Thank you very much experiment somewhere else. You just you just get this done, right. So I get that in the heat of the moment, we're not going to be this business II type person. And no, that's our substantive law. That's when we practice law. But on the business side of law, or leadership or marketing, I read you touch on business development, that could we please at least benefit from what we can learn from business people out there and what works for them?
Steve Fretzin 18:52
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of lawyers that are interested in business outside of practicing the law, there's a lot of lawyers getting into more entrepreneurial endeavors. A lot of the lawyers like yourself that, you know, love the law, practice the law, and then they take that insight in that experience, and then they pull out that entrepreneurial kind of costume or, you know, they want to play on the other side, and they get into a business and they can be very successful in translating some of those skills, if they can unleash the entrepreneurial skills that also, you know, like you said, toggling between the two. So that's something I'm seeing quite a bit of, and a lot of people who are opening their own firms or that are running small firms, they're running a business, it's Yes, it's the business of law, but you're running a business. And so you got to pull out that entrepreneurial, put out of the hat or toggle over as you're saying, otherwise, you know, you're gonna have a real struggle.
Gerry Riskin 19:42
And many of those young lawyers that are opening their own firms, for example, are doing a brilliant job, applying a good mindset toward really relating to clients. They're using some technology effectively, so that they can reduce their cost of production of work. pass that on as a favorable or advantages pricing for the client, etc, etc. There are so many examples today. In fact, I, I focus on the evolution of technology and law. And let me tell you, that is a fire hose, that is a fire hose and nobody turns that off. If I am doing a presentation, I gather information overnight before the presentation and say while you were sleeping, global firm x invested another $60 million in software that's going to write contracts, etc. You know that? Yeah, yeah,
Steve Fretzin 20:33
yeah. So things are changing all the time. But let's get back to the question I asked earlier, which is why are some leaders successful and others seem to fail or struggle? And obviously, you're bringing in the human element? The You know, it seems like almost the the we talked about the entrepreneurial element, we talk about the human element. So what else are you seeing as far as like, Are there specific either attributes or skills that leaders need to learn that you can talk through two or three of them is a relates to what would make them successful or more successful?
Gerry Riskin 21:06
Yes, it is very much a skill. And it is learned by doing and it's learned by listening to counterparts, some firm leaders are in little groups with other firm leaders, and they can exchange stuff happening and try stuff. And sometimes, maybe it's you or me having the privilege of counseling and guiding. I was meeting with a leadership team in the last 24 hours. And one of the comments I shared with them then, and I think they accepted it was Guess what, you have a lot less control right now than you'd like to have. And you feel it's incumbent upon you to make a lot of brilliant decisions. Well, guess what? No disrespect, but you're not equipped to make those decisions? Nobody is there's too much uncertainty present. So sometimes it's just a matter of having someone hold that mirror up and say, You know what, you can go to sleep tonight without having made every decision and you're still okay. He's still doing a good job.
Steve Fretzin 22:03
Got it? Got it. Let me ask you this question. This might be I don't know if this is off topic, or it's on topic, but there's been a push Lately, I've been seeing where law firms are being run by CEOs. They're bringing in a CEO versus a managing partner who's a lawyer who's taking X amount of his or her time away from billing away from business development to be in that Managing Partner role in sort of managing things. What do you think about that model, good or bad or indifferent?
Gerry Riskin 22:29
Well, let's go to reality. Let's go to reality. I mean, before the pandemic, when I was still flying, like a crazy person, one of my last retreats was in Bangkok. And it was for an Australian firm, it's the fastest growing law firm in Australia for several years running is highly, highly profitable. Its growth is fueled by the ability to attract amazing talent. They're a delicious law firm. And they are run by a CEO and have been for something like 14 years now the CEO is from the accounting profession. In England, there seemed and I know I'm jumping here from Australia to England.
Steve Fretzin 23:11
That is, that's sorry, we're taking a journey.
Gerry Riskin 23:15
Journey, England has been open to understanding that professionals in various walks, like if they have a PhD, who was the head of marketing for Procter and Gamble, or some other brilliant person dealing with data or technology or whatever, they understand that those people have an amazing contribution to make no disrespect. Because I'm a North American. I'm born and raised in Canada. So, you know, slide me into the US. I'll be one with my brothers and sisters in the US for a minute. We're horrible. We're horrible about trusting a quote unquote, non lawyer from having a leadership position. Oh, my goodness, how could a person without a law degree who hasn't practiced law possibly know anything about marketing or business development or whatever? Now, I'll get to the punchline, you asked a question. The best CEOs who are not lawyers are knocking it out of the ballpark. And the firm's that we're looking at that are the global leaders know how to tap people like that. And the the those of us with messed up mindsets, who don't know how to let someone like that lead? Well, last example, the former leader of an 800 engineering engineer firm, was hired by a major law firm, and he said to me, looked me in the eye and said, Jerry, they won't let me buy paper clips. We just don't let those people do anything. If we have the wrong mindset. So yeah, the potential is for them to hit it out of the park. If we're willing to let him do it. We went, yeah.
Steve Fretzin 24:50
So is that sort of the future then of bigger law firms or mid market law firms in the US is if they're willing and able to, you know, bring in the talent and let's see I'm one that has a stronger business mind to run things and let the lawyers be the lawyers and let the marketing people be the marketing people, etc.
Gerry Riskin 25:07
When my great great, great, great, great grandchildren are just turning 80, yes, maybe more than, well, I'm just not seeing any receptivity. I'm just saying, I mean, the remembered legal profession is so fragmented. It's so fragmented. I like to think accounting, the big four firms have what's Pricewaterhouse over a quarter of a million people, and that's probably old news, probably over 300 400,000. By now, since I last looked largest law firm in the world has a few 1000 lawyers, as one of my colleagues put it once, if you took the one of the largest law firms in the world, and put it on the eyeball of the smallest Big Four accounting firm, it wouldn't interfere with their vision. So we're too fragmented, and we don't have the budgets to let people explore and do the right kinds of things. So no disrespect. Again, I love the profession. But Jeepers, I'm not seeing the forward thinking you'd have to see for that future you just touched on?
Steve Fretzin 26:09
Yeah. So if just I'm gonna put this out there as a general statement, if you're a lawyer, 10 years in working at a firm, and you see this kind of dysfunction, or you see poor leadership, or you see the fragmentation, they're not their eyes, not on the ball? Is it? What are you thinking as a 10 year senior associate or junior partner at a firm like that?
Gerry Riskin 26:31
Well, I'll riff from this speech, every day that the firm has you working for them, they must earn you and deserve you, and you person must be worthy of being paid what that firm is paying you. And that has to be true every day. And I'll tell you what, if there's a listener, or to who feels that way, as you said, they're in a dysfunctional situation, they're being very challenged, the firm doesn't get it, whatever. Think about your options, because it's never been easier. It sounds complicated to manage a firm and to have your own firm, never been easier, because the tools and the resources are available even to tiny firms.
Steve Fretzin 27:12
Now, really, you don't need to say you don't need to hire anybody, you don't need your own space, you don't need all the technologies about automation. So while scary, yes, going out on your own, certainly scary, to your point, never been easier, never been more automated, never been lower overhead to do it. And especially if you have clients you can bring over when you might be starting off in a really good position. Where I think lawyers struggle, though, is when they're being stuck in a worker bee. And again, if they want to be in the worker bee model, that's their choice. But if they know that the future is having their own clients and getting out there, they can get stuck. And they don't have clients to take with them, they don't have the interest or capacity to start their own firm. And now they can't change firms. Because the recruiters I talked to, they're still saying it's a half a million, you know, a portable to get where you want to go to go anywhere. So you know that they're, you know, they're, they can be in a bit of a pickle, too.
Gerry Riskin 28:06
So the lesson to that individual who's listening, and maybe feeling this is ignore the fact that the firm doesn't train you well enough to supplement your training, reach out to Steve to talk about business development, you know, get that training, get it, fine tune it. Secondly, you better have a vision. You can be critical all day. And which of us has not been critical of every restaurant we've ever been in. Prove this, but yeah.
Steve Fretzin 28:30
It's a it's a hobby for me.
Gerry Riskin 28:32
I saw a good hobby. But here goes. The mirror is a good friend of this lawyer who's listening in their envisaging here, Steve, and this is what the lawyer has to do. You have to articulate at least to yourself, and to Steve, if he asks, Who do you want to serve? What is this client tell you want to serve? Hopefully, it's overlapping with people, you know how to serve a little bit? Sure. And number two, what do you want to do for them? And if you're being critical of the firm, where you now are, what could you do better in a platform you created and this firm is doing now. Because unless you've got those two punch lines, you know, you have a vision for what you want to do. And you can explain to me or Steve, how you're going to do it better. Maybe you should stay where you are and not run around too fast. And just just stay humble. But darn it, if you're feeling it. The world is yours if you want.
Steve Fretzin 29:27
Yeah, well, that's great. And it's a great way to wrap things up. Jerry, if and just the I appreciate you and I appreciate so much the wisdom that you bring to the show today, or have brought if people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do with edge International. Well, how do they do that?
Gerry Riskin 29:42
Well, we have the shortest URL in the world. It's just the word edge.ai like artificial intelligence that comes from that Anguilla British West Indies where I have lived for 25 years so edge.ai and if you look up Gerry Riskin and you'll find my blog and lots of contact info and and look if you're a listener of Steve's, I am your friend. So you're not going to get a bill because you reach out to me and want to chat about something for a little while, you're going to be talking to a friend of Steve's who is glad that I made your acquaintance to Steve. So reach out all you want.
Steve Fretzin 30:14
That's super thoughtful. Gerry, I appreciate it. And again, I you know, it's just there's so much going on. And we just need a level head sometimes to kind of lay things out the way it really is. And I think he did that today in spades. So I just thanks again for taking your time. And I enjoyed having you. And I want to make sure we don't let the gap happen, like we just did between the last time we saw each other, so I will definitely have to keep an eye in closer touch.
Gerry Riskin 30:37
It's been an honor. Steve, really, it's an honor to be on your show. Well, I'm Thank you.
Steve Fretzin 30:42
My pleasure. My pleasure. And hey, everybody, listen, if you didn't get a couple of good ideas or takeaways from listening to our show today, and in Gerry's wisdom, then you're not paying attention. You're not. You're trying to multitask with too many things is probably my guess. But listen. The goal here is usual is to be that lawyer, someone who's confident and someone that's organized and most importantly a skilled Rainmaker, getting your own business, making up your own mind, what's the future? What's your vision to Gerry's point, so listen, have a great rest of the day. Be safe, be well, and we will see you again soon. Take care.
Narrator 31:18
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website fredson.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.