In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Frank Ramos discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"What I recommend is that you try to connect and follow people in the area of practice you're in and see what they're doing and seeing how they're communicating with their respective audience." — Frank Ramos
Connect with Frank Ramos:
Website: cspalaw.com & miamimentor.com
Books: miamimentor.com/bookshelf
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/frankramosylt
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Frank Ramos 0:00
No matter where you are in your career, I don't care if you've been practicing 30 years you just have a law score. Even if you're still in law school. It's never too early to start developing relationships both in person or online, because you never know where the next case may come from.
Narrator 0:17
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:40
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And I hope you're having a great day so far. And again, what we try to do on this show is to bring on experts and guests that are going to help you improve your law practice one way or the other. It doesn't really matter if it's someone that's that's been in your shoes, or someone that is doing something unique that you can learn from, it's all positive for you as a lawyer to get some help and get some advice for people that have been there and done that. So today is no different. I've got an amazing guest. I've been dying to get this guy on my show for a couple months, I had to reschedule with him. I feel a bit bad about that, Frank. But we're here now. And I want to introduce Frank Ramos is an author. He's a social media expert. He's a partner at Clark Silvergate. How're you doing?
Frank Ramos 1:23
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me today.
Steve Fretzin 1:25
Yeah, thanks for being on the show. And I'm just so excited. I was just talking to you a minute ago about a comment I made on your social media posts, because I found that it it was something really helpful. I mean, how often are you reading a social media post where you're not only able to add value, but then you're able to read the other comments in here, what other people are doing that's working for them and actually get some value? It's just not something that's happening, you know, every day. So I appreciate you you're posting we'll get we'll get into that in a minute. Do me a favor and give a little background in my audience about how you came to be? And then and then how did you figure out that, that marketing was something important and take it from there?
Frank Ramos 2:03
You know, as a lawyer, and this is just really any professional, your value is based on your relationships with others. As individuals, we're free work, whether it's cases, if a lawyer or whatever area of practice that you do. And in order to have those relationships, you have to reach out to people, you need to stay connected, and stay front of mind. And so social media, particularly really helps in that regard, especially now that we're still in the pandemic a year out. And many of us are still social distancing. We're not traveling as much we're not meeting people for coffee or lunch or for drinks. And so how do you maintain those relationships you build over years, maybe even decades, and platforms such as LinkedIn really allow you to do just that by posting an area that you're comfortable with that, you know, that sort of reflects your expertise and doing it consistently, if possible, daily, you're always front of mind of your contacts, and your relationships and referral sources so that when they have a case that they need help with and your geographic area in your backyard, they'll think of you and give you a call.
Steve Fretzin 3:01
Yeah, and I want to get into the weeds pretty seriously today on that subject and dealing with COVID. And also with just how to become sort of a social media guru, as a lawyer. But But take us back. You've you've written some books, you've, you've obviously advanced yourself as a marketing professional in the legal space to take us to that, what was the switch? Where did you go from lawyer to being lawyer slash marketer?
Frank Ramos 3:26
I think early on, I realized that there were a lot of lawyers around me, that were good lords, but not great lawyers, they had a lot of business. And there were a lot of great lawyers who had read a little business. And the difference wasn't really, the fact that one Lord is better than the other, it was just that one lawyer was able to tout his or her background better than others. Obviously, you want to provide a great work product, you want to be great at what you do. But people have to know what you're doing. They have to understand your appreciate your expertise, and understand how you can serve their purposes. And so if you're just sitting in your office, and you're never leaving, and you're not marketing and communicating, reaching out to people, you're always going to be just an employee, you're going to be somebody at a firm or at a company where you're doing great work, which is wonderful, but you're not really out there people that really know you and what you can do for them. So no matter where you are in your career, I don't care if you've been practicing 30 years, you just have a law score. Even if you're still in law school, it's never too early to start developing relationships both in person and online. Because you never know where the next case may come from.
Steve Fretzin 4:29
And I've spoken at a number of law schools and it's just Hey, the person to your left to your right, they're going to be a general counsel at a mid market or large corporation at some point in the next 15 years. You may want to keep in touch with them you may want to you know follow their career and stay friends and and build relationships with some key people, the smarter people in the room, if you will, and they just kind of look at me funny and I aren't you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna regret it later. And I think that that lawyers that you know, maybe from from 10 and 15 and 20 years ago are just coming Around the last couple of years to figure out, you know, maybe I made a misstep in my analysis of how I need to develop these relationships or maintain relationships. So what are some things that you do to stay top of mind, I mean, social media, for sure. Are there other things that you're doing to keep relationships fresh with your clients or with other professionals that could refer you?
Frank Ramos 5:21
You know, social media is good, you can also reach out through text messages, voicemail messages, handwritten letters are always really well liked, you know, I have stationery that I have right? To the right of me, that I complete and send out, it's a very inexpensive marketing tool, you know, I recommend that every lawyer go out and buy some basic stationery with their name and address and their return address in the envelope and make a point to write at least one letter a week, if not more, to contact and doesn't mean you're not really asking for business, you're just saying, Oh, hey, I was just thinking of you, I hope you're doing well. All the best, blah, blah, blah, just a few sentences, you know, taking, making the effort of actually your own pen, writing a letter to somebody means a lot to folks. And I generally receive a handful of written letters, either every week or every month, and I keep most of them for a while, you know, eventually I'll throw them away, but they're there. And it's nice, you know, it's a nice little reminder, it's nice token. In addition to that, you know, its extent that you can have people over to your office and have them over for coffee or for drinks, that's another way of doing it, you try to find ways of marketing, that don't really disrupt your day too much. Because you're going to spend two hours in a lunch or three hours at a dinner, you're paid to do too many of those, and you're just not going to enjoy it that much. And you're having a big bill at the end. And the ROI is probably not gonna be great. But if you can do things in your own office, you know, we're doing this by audio, and your audience can appreciate it. But I have a basically a rum bar over my right corner that I have people over occasionally, and I have a coffee bar onto my desk off to the left. And it's just easier to invite somebody over to my own office. And if they're late, it doesn't matter if I'm working and you know, I don't have to go anywhere, drive anywhere, or pay for parking, or wait around or have things last longer than they should. And if they cancel, if they cancel, I'm still working, it doesn't really matter. Because you know, one out of three times your, your lunch date, or your contact isn't going to show up. And that can be a source of frustration. So try to find ways of both reaching out to people online, but also on person that is as least disruptive as possible to encourage you to do it more.
Steve Fretzin 7:29
Yeah, that's great, and doing something different. That's something that's memorable. And that's something that you can become known for. And I think the days of writing letters, handwritten letters is kind of gone. And to be able to do that. And I know if I received a written letter, which by the way, I don't, but if I did, I'd lose my mind. Like, I would think that's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me, my day is made or whatever I get calls, I get emails, those are lovely, but holy mackerel, and I and I try to send those out, I you know, around the holidays, but it's, it's hard people have a really hard time doing that. And I think just to get into a habit of one a week, you know, would be really would be really, you know, easy to do. And I think it would get significant, you know, benefit to the to you into that relationship.
Frank Ramos 8:13
Yeah, what I recommend to folks is to take two pieces of stationery and two envelopes and put them and leave them on your desk. And their concert reminder that you have to send these out for the week is out that you put them in a drawer, you're probably never gonna think of doing it. But if it's right there, from your desk, like automatic, I write this letter, and it really doesn't take very long and you can have your legal assistant, you know, fill out the address, you know, to the other person, it's just, it's just a few sentences takes about five minutes. It's just whoever you're thinking of at the time that you maybe haven't reached out to in a while and you want to sort of make sure they're still within your sphere of influence.
Steve Fretzin 8:46
Maybe even get your assistant to remind you or push you to do it like give give him or her permission to like bother me or hit me up. Maybe even fill out the envelope and everything so that all you have to do is fill out the three or four sentences on the stationery just make it as easy as possible. I think that would be
Frank Ramos 9:02
Yeah, so it's a great idea.
Steve Fretzin 9:03
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about social media. Let's get into the weeds on it, because that's an area that you've excelled in. I'm following you and seeing your posts all the time. And and kind of how did you get going in that? And then where is it led? And how has it benefited you?
Frank Ramos 9:18
You know, there's several major platforms. And we'll talk largely about LinkedIn. There's Facebook, which is sort of more friends and family. There's Twitter, which always seems to be a place where you can get a lot of information breaking news, but the trolls are there in mass. And there's Instagram, which is sort of where you look pretty through your photos. And there are lawyers who excel in those platforms. I don't and it's they're tricky platforms to do well in. And I think LinkedIn is probably the best for professionals and it's a platform that I've visited and left over the years several times and probably around 2016 I really committed to it. I think it was first on the planet. From Around 2007 or eight in its early years, and then it was largely sort of employee employer type, job posting site where individuals turn their profiles into resumes and headhunters tried to find you. And I think that's, that's probably 90% of the activity. And it still serves that purpose. But it's really grown well beyond that. And so I revisited the site, maybe in 2011 2012. And it really was until 2016, that I had evolved. And the platform evolved enough that I really figured it out that committed to posting every day, I started writing some books for other lawyers. I think at the time, I'd written a book called the associates handbook was a free ebook that had been published by voluntary bar association called the Defense Research Institute. And I wanted to promote it to get into more people's hands. And so I started including a very brief excerpt of it each day. And for folks who aren't familiar with LinkedIn, you're limited to 1,300 characters, it's a few sentences a paragraph or two. So you can't say a whole lot. And it's, that's good and bad. Once you get acclimated and get used to and accustomed to writing these short spurts, it becomes very easy to do, but server 2016 in the summer, I started doing it daily. And then I moved beyond just sort of sharing sort of excerpts from the book. And I started providing other posts. And for the most part, I was sort of providing commentary on the practice providing tips and advice and how tos and pre trial, trial skills and leadership, marketing, mentoring and so forth. And that kind of just blossomed that was sort of my, my brand on the platform. And that's been kind of consistent fairly much since then. And I want to say, a couple years ago, especially around COVID, when people were kind of getting a little desperate and out of sorts, I started doing a lot of inspirational motivational posts just to help people through that. And that's sort of become part of my overall brand as well. And that's kind of where I'm at now, if anybody follows me, I'm close to 57, 58,000 followers now. And I generally now can post several times a day, often I'll try to stop myself from posting too much. And what you'll find is, once you get on a platform, the first I want to say three weeks is difficult, you have to make it a habit, you know, takes generally three weeks to turn something to a habit. And so if you can spend three weeks posting every day, by the end of that time, it's gonna become second nature. And certainly within a month, if not two months, you'll find yourself having to stop yourself from posting too much. And it seems kind of counterintuitive, and somewhat paradoxical. But you will find that once you get acclimated to it and get accustomed to it, you will be posting a lot. And you'll start developing a following and what I recommend to lawyers, really any professionals to pick a topic that you're an expert in or like to be an expert in, and post on it regularly so that others come to see you as an expert in that area. Now my my thing is a bit more broad, it's more sort of just the general practice, although it does have has led to business and has lots of referrals. But if you let's say do cybersecurity now post and cybersecurity regular basis, you do noncompetes do that. If you do product defense, or if you do personal injury, auto or if you do criminal, DUI, whatever is your niche. You know, there's an attorney, I know, her name is Hannah Henry Bell, and she is a divorce lawyer, Family Law lawyer in Austin. And she just posts about that all the time. And often she'll post videos of herself in the car, there's just some random thoughts or share videos. And she's known for that. And she's done a lot of business because people see her in that niche, and they see her as an expert in that area. And they have a case and, and often they'll give her a call. So ultimately, what you'll find is that you're gonna build a following people are gonna start following you seeking connections with you. And if you're posting regularly on a given topic, they're coming to see you as an expert in that area. And when they have a case that they need help with in your backyard, they're probably gonna give you a call.
Steve Fretzin 13:52
So let's talk about content, because one of the concerns lawyers are going to have listening to this is alright, so I'm an expert at employment law. And I want to post on that. I mean, where am I getting content from? Is everything coming out of my head? am I sharing other people's posts? am I sharing other people's written content? How do I get the posts out? And how many of those Can I realistically do in a week or in a month on a particular subject? So how do you how do you sort of manage that type of situation?
Frank Ramos 14:21
You know, if let's say you're doing employment law, that's a great area at most Employment Lawyers, I know speak and write on their topics pretty regularly. And I would suggest that they go to a PowerPoint they've recently done, and if it's 20 slides, you probably have 20 posts, taken org or they've recently done that has maybe like eight sub sections. Now you have eight posts and start with something you already have created. That's what I did. I started with the book I wrote, and I basically took little excerpts. Remember, you're limited 1300 characters, only a few sentences. So you can take something you rewrote and maybe tweak it a little bit, make it sound less legalese, make it sound more conversational, and do that for a bit until you exhaust your already has. And then in the process of doing that you've gotten acclimated to getting on the platform, either on your phone or on your laptop or on your tablet, you gotten acclimated to actually writing a post, even though it's something you've already written before. And you're sharing existing content, but you're getting used to being on LinkedIn. And that's part of the process. And within a few weeks, even though you're not really generating new content, you've become acclimated with how to generate content. And then what you'll find is you'll start thinking of things to write about. And I generally recommend people have their phone Notes app open, or keep a little journal in their purse or in their pocket, and jot things down, you know, they're in line at the dry cleaner, and an idea comes to mind, they're lined at supermarket, or they're waiting for your hearing, or they're at some events, and they're bored to death into the golf into the corner, and they just got a couple of minutes. It's the creative process, once you like that fire, it really becomes a configuration, it really spreads very quickly. And people often are worried like, I'm just gonna run out of things to say, and you'd be surprised that never happens. Once you get past that sort of one month mark, it really doesn't happen. Now, obviously, if you have a trial, if you something happens, or you know, you get our practice, you have to kind of get back in practice again. But you'll find that once that becomes part of your routine, like waking up and brushing your teeth, or getting your morning cup of coffee, it'll become very second nature.
Steve Fretzin 16:26
And that's really the key to anything you want to be successful with is having the habit and making it a regular part of how you do things, whether you want to improve your eating habits, whether you want to become a better player on a sports in in a sports league or sports team, in building your career business development. I mean, that's all I do every day all day is help lawyers on this subject. And it's all about habits. And if we can get into a flow, whether it's social media posting, or making regular email outreaches to get appointments with strategic partners, or how to get your client to make real introductions for you. That's all a habit. So I think that that's really going to be an important part of how somebody gets going and is successful. Do you have a content calendar that you're using? Or are you just doing it off on the off of the list of the things that you write down in your journal?
Frank Ramos 17:13
I started with a calendar, that's a good way to start. To sort of discipline yourself, you may want to sit down on a weekend or in the evening, and jot down ideas next 30 days. And that will help you but what you're really trying to find and I think it's true for most people who've been on any platform for a period of time, is at some point you're going to abandon keeping a journal, you're not going to worry about forgetting that idea not to worry about, oh, I had this great idea. And I forgot about it, it's just gonna stay front of mine to you. And you're gonna always have your phone with you. And you'll be like, Oh, I'm just jotted down. I mean, typically, it takes me about a minute to write down a post. And that's where I'm at, at this point in my you know, in my journey on LinkedIn. And I do that maybe two or three times a day. And sometimes on the weekends, when I have more free time, and I'm running errands, I may do that four or five times a day. But I'm really in terms of the actual posting, I'm not spending more than five minutes, maybe 10 minutes, the entire day on that. So again, the first part of it, sort of the starting up, does take some effort, but if you can commit to a kind of like committing to a diet, you know, the first couple weeks are always the hardest. A new workout routine, the first couple weeks are always the hardest. But once you get that under your belt, you'll find it's a lot easier to do it.
Steve Fretzin 18:28
And I think similar to the assistant helping you with those letters, you know, it might also be helpful to have somebody in your corner if you need it pushing you forward either posting for you or or helping you to just you know, keep track of things or maybe deciding if you know, there's other you know, images that you can use just helping you put put it all together so you're not maybe feeling alone. Some people can do like, some people can do it on their own and other people need, you know, their accountability partner, they need somebody in their corner assistant to just help them get it out the door get those things you know, published in a maybe using a Hootsuite or something that auto, you know, automates that calendar? Again, not for everybody. The question I have for you also is there's so many different things to post. There's not only different topics and things that we can discuss in a minute, but I was gonna ask you about infographics, images, means videos, there's all these different things that you can do to post and get a message across. What are your thoughts on those kinds of posts versus you know, just just text?
Frank Ramos 19:30
You know, I think visual is important. I typically do not use a lot of visuals. And I'm not really known for visuals, but I do know a number of lawyers to do it. There's different genres, one videos, I think they're really good. There is a number of attorneys who use video very effectively, and really nothing more than just their iPhone and the recording themselves. And they're talking about some topic and it's not doesn't look you know, very polished or professional but to get their point across. If you need to do videos, keep them short 30 to 60 seconds, make sure there's a point If you can try to embed the text into the video, that's actually easy to do, there are certain apps you can send your video to. And for small charts, I'll do that for you. And in terms of images, and so forth, there, there are a lot of things that terms of design that at some point, at one point were very expensive and now are not, there are lots of apps, lots of platforms that you can pay flat fees to monthly, or streaming fees to and you can get a lot of that information, you have to figure out remember it. LinkedIn is a different type of platform, it's morphing into more like Facebook, Instagram, where imaging is becoming more important, and videos are becoming more important. But it's still very much a text only platform. And so if you want to do tech, suddenly, that's fine. If at some point you want to explore and move beyond that, that's fine, too. What I recommend is that you try to connect and follow people in the area of practice your read and see what they're doing and seeing how they're communicating with their respective audience. Are they using text only? Are they using videos? Are they using images? Are they using means which are now becoming suddenly becoming more popular? Are they pulling articles from, you know, various publications and commenting on it? And see what their engagement is? see any likes? How many comments how many shares? You see that all at the bottom of their various posting? say, oh, okay, well, I see that this attorney also does cyber security. And she posts twice a day. And at least once a day, she includes a video or an article. And over her last 12 posts, three of them have gotten a lot of engagement. And two of them include video, and one doesn't, or you know, and so you can start seeing patterns, you know, try to be your own sort of analytics analyzer and seeing who is in the space you want to be in, and how they're communicating to their audience and what type of response they're getting with their communications. And it's it's a bit voyeuristic. But it's very important for you to figure out where you want to be and what you want to do.
Steve Fretzin 22:02
Yeah, the, the thing that I that I like to do is when I see people mix things up, if it's only promotional, or just images, or it's just, Hey, I got super lawyer or it's, it's things like that I'm not, I'm not thrilled, like it's not going to capture my attention, I might say, like, give them a thumbs up like or something like that. But that's really about it. There's no engagement. And I'm looking for that engagement. Again, the post that you had this morning I responded to it was about what apps or add ons or programs are you using to make you more efficient? And you mentioned one and then other people chimed in Catalan it was it was the Grammarly, right. Right. And then I chimed in about Boomerang for for Gmail. And then I started reading all the other people's comments, because to me, that was interesting. And it's something that I'm always looking at, you know, what's the newest, latest, greatest XYZ? That's what I'm looking for. So that engagement, you're gonna get a lot more comments, a lot of people chiming in, which I think is really, really helpful. Now, let me let me ask, I've got a bunch of things written down here. And I just want to run we'll do a speed round, I'll say that, say the, the type of post and then you tell me what you think about it. All right. All right, absolutely. So number one is what I call a rant, which is where someone just has an angle on something that may not even be business related. Or if it's business related, it might be an opinion about it, and they just rant on it. Okay, what do you think about those?
Frank Ramos 23:22
It depends on the topic. Some people do it effectively, if they're ranting about the education system, or if they're ranting about the economy, generally, I would avoid political posts, certain or controversial posts, you have to understand your audience. And there's a lot of complaints on LinkedIn that they don't want it to become another Facebook. And so immediately, and sometimes I'm just out of curiosity, I'll see a post that has like 5000 comments. And invariably, it's something political oriented, and half the posts are kind of ripping into the person posting them. Have you gotten a lot of attention? Yes. Is it positive? No.
Steve Fretzin 23:55
In particular, on LinkedIn, we really need to keep it business related. I occasionally see people posting things that again, if it's, it's something about your family, but it has a business angle or twist. That's fine. Like I had a picture of my son and I fishing, but it's because I wrote an article for the Chicago daily law bulletin about fishing for business and in all that, it wasn't just about, hey, here's me and my son fishing and and isn't this wonderful? Well, that's, you know, that's Facebook, keep it on Facebook, you know, we don't need another Facebook. Right. So but but but the ramp, the ramp, I did a rant about a client I worked with who wrote an article, and their firm did just a terrible job of helping them get that article promoted through social media and other means. And I had to basically teach the lawyer to go to his marketing department and teach them how to do social media for him to get support on an article that he invested his time into. And I posted about that, and now I'm not upset I was bit disappointed. And sure enough, a managing partner of a firm or a leader in a firm had a negative comment about it because like, Oh, you know, you shouldn't be talking negatively about marketing people at law firms. I'm not talking about Negative I'm talking about it's shameful that that that our attorneys gonna spend that much time on an article and then not have it be utilized properly because a mid market law firm doesn't, you know, know how to do that. And you have to teach them. So, you know, you're not going to make everybody happy. But the majority of the people that saw that rant, were on board with it, and then thought it was, you know, appropriate.
Frank Ramos 25:21
Yeah. And I think there's a certain personal aspect to it that readers want, you know, and personalize content, where you talk about personal failure and how you overcame, it seemed to go very, seemed to go viral often. So I'm looking thinking back through my posts, and the ones I talked about where, you know, I talked about my prior bouts of depression, or I talked about some failure in my life and how, either through support from family or friends, I was able to overcome it. Those seem to really resonate and really take off.
Steve Fretzin 25:51
Yeah. How about an educational posts, and I know, we talked about this a few minutes ago, you know, writing on your subject area, but educating people on the law, educating people on things they may not know, around me, you know, for me, it's marketing, branding, business development, your you know, you're doing that as well. What do you think about education as posts?
Frank Ramos 26:09
I think that's great. I think if that's your bread and butter, and you're constantly giving away free content, some people always wonder, Well, why am I giving away all my expertise? It's like, you'd be surprised. The more you give away, the more you didn't get back.
Steve Fretzin 26:21
Yeah, and the next one's a little more controversial, promotional. And I know I mentioned super lawyer. And I'm not suggesting that's not a good thing to post. But I want to get your take on someone. Maybe it's not shameless self promotion. But definitely, there's something in it about about, you know, promoting a win or promoting something positive that's going on in your life. That it from a business perspective, how do you feel about those types of posts,
Frank Ramos 26:43
I don't have a problem with promotional posts, as long as they're no more than 20% of your feed. Okay, I generally have a rule that if you're going to share something like super large, which is perfectly fine or best lawyers, or when at trial, that that's not your entire feed, and you see certain firms where every post is about some accomplishment, which is great. But then you start bringing, like, if, if you're not going to be content, if all you're doing is advertising your firm, then why am I following you? And And so, if I'm going to talk about something I did, or if I'm going to talk about some victory our firm had, typically I'm gonna make sure that I've given you so much content that you're happy to read about. Something I did, you're like, that's okay. Like, okay, yeah, he posted about some distinguishment. But, you know, he's posted like 10 other things and things that I liked and enjoy. So no, that's perfectly fine by me.
Steve Fretzin 27:32
Yeah. I mean, something I've been doing lately, for example, is the frets Nadir of the week. So I'm taking clients that are sharing their successes in my programs. And I'm kind of acknowledging them on LinkedIn and giving them some props. And then other friends and clients or other people that know them will chime in and say, Hey, congrats, this is great. Glad you're doing well. So it is a little bit self promotion, in the sense that I'm using my name as a verb. But on the other side of it, you know, I'm acknowledging a client success, not my success, client success.
Frank Ramos 28:00
Yeah, it's a great deal for people who are into the consulting area, and whatever is that they do and consulting for city lawyers or law firms. Obviously, they have a cadre of clients, their clients, I'm sure are doing well. They're very happy with their services. And so it's a way to promote them and promote yourself at the same time, and therefore you have an actual example of something you've done well through them.
Steve Fretzin 28:22
Yeah. And then the last one I was gonna bring up to you. And you already mentioned this earlier was motivational. So some lawyers are inspiring and want to share motivational stories and things that help them in their business or in their life. And other lawyers aren't comfortable sharing or open to that, what's the benefit or power of you know, someone that has motivating posts.
Frank Ramos 28:42
Those are generally the ones that are most well received. And during the COVID period, I started posting a lot of motivational inspirational posts, and found those are the ones that really had the most comments and likes and shares. And I would get a lot of messages from young lawyers and even more senior lawyers saying, you know, I've had a tough week or tough month, that still have an isolation, I really appreciate you regularly posting on this. And some of those have led to no long term business relationship. So what I wouldn't suggest maybe you start with that maybe you start with something that you're more comfortable with and kind of expand, the longer you're on the platform, the more you're going to sort of grow your tentacles and try new things and explore new areas and try to come up with new topics. You know, start with what you're most comfortable with. And over the weeks and months to come spread your wings and certainly try motivational inspirational posts.
Steve Fretzin 29:35
Thanks Franken. And what I'd like to sort of wrap up with if you're okay with it is just talking a little bit about and it doesn't have to be to you this doesn't have to be us specifically, but just generally what you've seen as it relates to return on investment of time and energy, because that's the big question lawyers are going to ask and here they're gonna say everything I just heard from Frank is, is awesome, because that's what I think. Right? And they would they would think the same. The next thing they're gonna say is well, Alright, so let's say I do For a year, I do this for two years, what's the realistic expectation of return on investment as far as how it's going to help my practice? What are your thoughts on that?
Frank Ramos 30:08
I think you're gonna develop a lot of relationships with significant referral sources, you're going to be asked to speak and write and be asked to lead and participate, you're gonna be seen as a subject matter expert, and sir pay off and really only takes 15 minutes a day for someone who's completely new to LinkedIn, take 15 minutes, and for the first week, just work on your profile. And that's your first week, that's, you know, whatever lawn that may be in the second week, just explore who LinkedIn is recommending you connect with and follow on, do that for a week, 15 minutes a day. And then the next week, for 15 minutes a day, look at people who are in your orbit their connections, and see what they're posting and look at your feed and really study their posts and which ones are resonating, which ones aren't. And then after three weeks, start posting yourself start, you know, 15 minutes a day, I'm gonna start doing one post a day, and you're gonna find that there's gonna be a lot of content. And then within a month or so you're gonna find that you're pretty much maybe not an expert, but certainly very facile with how to use it.
Steve Fretzin 31:11
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I can tell you, from my experience, and working with a number of my clients, that many of them are either just getting started with social media, or some have been doing it for a while. And it's, it's, you're either in the game or you're out, you're either you're either moving forward, or you're dying. And in the idea that social, I'm just gonna ignore social media, it's like, it's like chopping off a leg, you're not going to get where you need to go these days, if you're not relevant if you're not being seen, and everybody else is. So you have to make a decision on your time. Yes, but you have to make a decision. Where do you want to be in the future and business development and marketing are very closely tied to each other? And while I'm teaching business development? I absolutely I've been teaching LinkedIn when you mentioned 2007 2008. Yeah, I was out there teaching it at that point. And now years later, everyone's on it. And it's where all the general counsel's are the CEO is all the people that you want to bet you want to work with, or partner with. They're all there. And now you have to make a decision. Do you want to be a part of the conversation? Or do you want to sit in a room by yourself? So you know, it's one way or the other? Unfortunately, so so if people want to reach out to you to read your books, or to get in touch with you, or throw business your way? How do they get in touch with you, Frank?
Frank Ramos 32:24
You know, the best place is go to my personal website, miamimentor.com and you'll find my books are about 20 that are free there. training videos and podcasts like this where I've spoken. I try to help young lawyers and law students. And so I, most of my content, I actually almost all of it is free. And so they can find it there. And there's a way to contact me through the website.
Steve Fretzin 32:45
Terrific. And I'll also include some info on the show notes so people can reach out to Frank and just thanks again for taking the time. I mean, there's so many
Frank Ramos 32:53
Thanks for having me
Steve Fretzin 32:53
Yeah, yes. So many great takeaways, and just taking the kind of taking the blinders off of of the subject that a lot of lawyers question whether or not it's for them. And I think you've really helped to to shine a light on it. So thanks again, for being my guest.
Frank Ramos 33:08
Thanks for having me. Have a great one.
Steve Fretzin 33:10
Yeah, appreciate that. And Hey, everybody, thanks for spending some time with Frank and myself this morning. Or today, it's we're morning, but it could be any time when you're listening to us. I don't know. The idea that you could get some takeaways from every single show in this one in particular, there's at least five or 10 that you should have written down. And the goal again to be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care of everybody and be safe.
Narrator 33:38
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website frentzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.