In this episode, Steve Fretzin and David Fram discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"You’re getting tons of exposure when you do a presentation, you should be getting value back." — David Fram
Connect with David Fram:
Twitter: @FramNELI
Website: NELI.org & DavidKFram.com
Book: Raising the Bar: How to Give Outstanding Legal Presentations
YouTube: David K. Fram Speaker
LinkedIn: David Fram
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
David Fram 0:00
Because my attitude towards the whole speaking gig is that what you're giving is a gift. It's a gift from you to this client or a potential client.
Narrator 0:16
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:39
Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. Be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And I hope everybody's doing okay with the zombie apocalypse and everything going on these days. I've got an amazing guest today. It's David Fram. He's the director of ADA services for the National Employment Law Institute. David, how are you?
David Fram 0:55
I'm great. Thanks, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 0:58
Awesome. Awesome. And I obviously didn't do justice to your title and all the things you've accomplished. If you just take a little bit and give us a reader's digest, that would be fantastic.
David Fram 1:06
Oh, okay. Well, my name is David Fram. I'm the director of Ada training for the National Employment Law Institute. And my career as a lawyer, I started off with a large law firm in Washington, DC named targeted Hartson. And from there, I went to the EEOC, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in Washington, where I specialized in the ADA, and that's when I really started speaking in force. And honestly, I have not stopped speaking for the past 30 years that that really did turn into B, being my passion is teaching about the ADA about other employment laws, and now about speaking on speaking, so I teach lawyers and human resource people how to give compelling legal presentations.
Steve Fretzin 1:55
Which is an amazing thing to do, and also something so necessary, because I think there's a gap in training and coaching for attorneys that are looking to build a reputation and build their name around speaking. So we're gonna get into the weeds on that very, very soon. I thought also, as a fun way to kind of get us going today, if you would be willing to share something fun or interesting about you that that not many people know.
David Fram 2:19
Well, I guess one thing that is not on my resume is that I'm a professional Potter. And so that's, that's the using the other side of my brain, that's not the legal side. And it lets me just escape from the world and get into the clay. So that's one thing people don't know. And then the other people. The other thing I think people don't know about me is that my dream was really to be a movie star or a rock star. But I learned very early on that I have no talent, singing or acting. And I think you know what I think Steve, that's why I love public speaking so much, is because I can't sing and I can't act, but I can still, I can still engage an audience, which is what I love.
Steve Fretzin 3:04
But there but there is a level of performance in acting in public speaking, right?
David Fram 3:09
Oh, my gosh, I think it is so important. It's not acting. Because I think we each need to be ourselves. You don't want to pretend to be funny, if you're not funny, you don't want to pretend to be serious or not serious. So it's not acting, but it is capitalizing on what we have naturally, in giving what I really think of as a gift, when you do a presentation. It's really a gift for your audience. And so you need to be thinking about that audience and what they need and how you can best get it across.
Steve Fretzin 3:42
Yeah, and I think there's a level of of, you know, interest in wanting to do it and wanting to educate and help others that speakers need to have as well. So, I guess what inspired you that I mean, we talked about the music and the acting but inspired you to kind of become a professional speaker and and also to teach speaking to other professionals.
David Fram 4:04
Well, Steve, I think the first time I realized the importance of good speaking good public speaking is when I was in college, and I realized that any good teacher can make really any topic interesting. And a bad teacher can make even the most interesting topic boring. And and so then going on to law school from from college I chose as my electives, not based on the topic, but based on the teacher. You know, I took some some some areas or some classes in law school that were really I think, objectively not the most interesting classes to take, but the teacher was so good that you wanted to listen and and you learned so much because of the teacher. And that's what really inspired me to number one be a good speaker. Or at least the best I can be, and to try to help other people be good speakers because I love listening. I love listening to a good speaker, I love attending a great class. And I hate attending a boring class.
Steve Fretzin 5:11
Yeah, I think that I could look back on my education and coming from a background of undiagnosed ADHD, that, you know, he was all about the teacher and how I could get involved and engaged in the lesson. And the ones that just talked to us, you know, that didn't engage us didn't bring us up to the board. You know, I was I was just checked out. So I can see where that's that's definitely a factor. Lawyers are a unique group of people as well. And in the legal community, I've noticed and I work with attorneys, not at the level that you do on their presentation styles, and that, but I do encourage them to speak and then try to get value and results out of that activity. But what types of challenges and issues do lawyers generally struggle with around speaking? And then how do you help them?
David Fram 5:55
Well, Steve, you know, a lot of lawyers have been trained in litigation, speaking, litigation, style speaking, but hardly anybody. Least very few lawyers have actually been trained in non litigation, public speaking. And it's just as important to learn this for when you're giving, it could be a CLE. And it could be something formal, like a CLE. It could be something informal, like an associate, giving a presentation to his or her work group. It could be somebody who's making a pitch to a client. So it's super important for lawyers to get this right. And yet, so few of us have actually been trained. And the challenge that I have often is that lawyers are so focused on content, that they they forget that content is such a small part of a listeners takeaway. There's been there have been studies done that have shown that it's roughly 7% of listeners takeaway is based on your content, and what is it the other 93% is based on voice and tonality and body language. And leaders are focused on content and they think that's going to carry the day, and it really doesn't carry the day, at least not giving any effective presentation. I mean, you might have gotten your content across, but people don't walk away, learning much. So that's one challenge is that people just focus on the content. And and, Steve, the other thing that I have a problem with sometimes with lawyers is ego. You know, sometimes when you're talking to a partner at a law firm, they're used to doing it a certain way. And they think their way is the right way. And they haven't really thought about whether this is really what my audience is needing. Whether this is making it the easiest for my audience to use my content in terms of the actual presentation. So sometimes it is a matter of ego and just breaking through and getting people to just listen to you and try it a different way.
Steve Fretzin 8:03
Yeah, and I would add to that, that a lot of them struggle with getting value. And I will probably get into that in a few minutes. But it's like, hey, I've done all these presentations. And I'm not really getting much out of it as it relates to, you know, business development or getting new clients or getting new relationships built, which again, if you do a great job, you'd like to think that that's just going to come your way. And for some people it does. And then I think for others, we've got incorporate some additional, maybe tactical elements into it. But again, well, I think we'll get into that in a few minutes.
David Fram 8:34
Can I just add one thing? At least please know, if you have somebody who says, Yeah, yeah, I'm really not getting much back. Rather than blaming everybody else. I think that lawyer should say, maybe I need to be doing things differently. Maybe I'm not making the best presentation I could be making because you know what, you should be getting value back. You're getting tons of exposure, when you do a presentation, you should be getting value back.
Steve Fretzin 9:02
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I think sometimes, though, when we analyze it, and this is sort of like, you know, pros and cons, but they might be speaking to the wrong audience. For example, it could be speaking to all of their peers, or people that do the same, you know, type of law practice. So they're basically giving their best ideas to their competition. In other cases, it may be that they don't have a hook at the end to kind of make sure that the people that are interested in talking with them after the fact have an easy way to do it. So I'm thinking I'm talking more maybe business development minded stuff, rather than being a great speaker that would just engage to the degree where people would want to come up and speak obviously, that's the best when you make an amazing presentation that hits home that people just line up to talk with you. So let me ask you this, uh, David as a speaking coach, you know, what are some some of the things that you tell my audience that's truly critical to lawyers success as a speaker?
David Fram 9:56
Well, Steve, there are certain steps that I always use when I'm giving a presentation. And I advise lawyers, not just lawyers, I advise anybody who's giving a legal presentation. But I realize your your audience is going to be lawyers, things that are so important to really focus on before your presentation. And then during your presentation and after your presentation. But if you don't mind, Steve, I could just go through some of the steps that I go through and that I advise people to go through. Would you like me to do that?
Steve Fretzin 10:29
Yeah, I think that would be super helpful.
David Fram 10:31
Okay, the first step, in my opinion, and it's going to sound so obvious, but people forget to do it, is to understand the audience to really analyze the audience and and figure out is this audience made up of lawyers? Is it made up of human resource professionals? Is it made up of managers? Is it a combination, because the terms you use are going to depend on who's in that audience, like, for example, if the audience is made up of anybody, other than just lawyers, and you say summary judgment, nobody's gonna know what that means. So if you've got a combination of people, then you need to explain legal terms as you're going through the presentation. And the other thing is, in terms of terminology is if you're giving a presentation to a corporate client, or potentially a corporate client, is understanding the terminology they use the corporate speak they use as an example. Does this company call its employees, employees? Or does it call them associates? Does it call it supervisors, supervisors? Or does it call them team leaders? Does it call its worksite? Or worksite? Or does it call it a campus? Now, this might just sound so basic, but it's so important because you get credibility? When you use the terms that this corporation or this agency uses, it shows you put in the extra time, the extra effort, it shows, it shows respect. So the first thing that I would tell a lawyer, and I'm really summarizing right now, this this first point, but the first thing I would tell a lawyer is to really focus on your audience focus on their needs. And that also includes the challenges that they are having, right? The second, because when you can incorporate into your presentation, right up front ticular problems they're having. It's, it's really it's actually so rewarding as a speaker, to see people in a group shaking their heads like, yeah, yeah, we're dealing with that he understands me. So I would say, I had a time meet with a conference organizer, meet with whoever it is that hired you to give this speech for this for this employer for this company, and find out what their terms are, what their problems are, and really address their problems. Because my attitude towards the whole speaking gig is that what you're giving is a gift. It's a gift from you to this client, or a potential client. So that leads me to my next tip, which is analyzing what exactly is your message? What is the gift that you're giving this client? So is it an update on the law, and that that could even be in house, like if you're at a law firm, and you're an associate, and you're giving your workgroup an update on a particular area of the law, or maybe a conference you attended? I'm saying put in the same amount of effort, even to those informal presentations. And here, ask yourself, what is the gift? Am I am I talking about strategies for a case? Am I rolling out some new corporate policy? am I teaching managers how to comply with the law? Am I trying to win over a client? What is the gift you're giving for this particular group? Next, in my my lineup of steps, is figuring out how you want to organize your presentation. Because how you organize your presentation is going to depend on what your message is, and who this group is. And the main ways that I can think of to organize a legal presentation are case by case slash topical, chronological or problem slash solution. Now case by case is what we typically see at CLE's where you've got somebody who's giving an update on I'll just take Wage and Hour law. And they're going case by case through the most recent Wage and Hour decisions. It's kind of the driest way of presenting, but sometimes it's going to be exactly what your audience needs. And that's my point here is asking yourself, what is my audience need, but I'll tell you even when you're doing case by case, you can still make it really interesting because people are motivated They learn through stories. So instead of just saying this case, in this holding, you have to remember that every single case, is a story. So tell the story, talk about make it bring it to life, this particular planet, what happened, what the employer did what the employer saying the employee did. So you can really bring these these cases to life, and people are going to walk away with a lot more. So that's the case by case. Of course, chronological would be if you're giving your your your case, from beginning to end or the start from beginning to end. And problem solution is typically, where you'd be talking to a client and house where you've got a particular problem you're addressing, and then you're going to present your solution. The important thing here, Steve, because it sounds obvious as I say it, but it's to make an intentional choice with each of these things I'm going through, make an intentional choice. Now, that leads us now that we've talked about the organization part leads us to the next step, which is actually starting your presentation. I think when you start your presentation, there is absolutely no substitute for passion. Now, you probably if you're speaking on a topic, already are excited about your topic. But if you're not, then you need to find a connection. Because people learn best, they connect best when the when the speaker loves the the the issue the topic that he or she is speaking one so, so get excited about the topic and let your excitement show, you know, this this Steve is actually one of the mistakes that I have seen lawyers make in particular, is that we're taught to act professionally. And sometimes we just care too much about Oh, do I look professional? Do I look serious? And and the lawyer in a case like that is often just looking really stiff. And so what I would say to lawyers is be excited, people are going to learn better, they're going to like him more they're going to they're going to connect with you more. If you are excited, if you use your your voice effectively go use your tonality and your volume, or use your body. Look at people use your arms. There's a partner who I've actually become very good friends with over the years who's is one of the speakers that I use in the conferences that I put put together. And she told me that as an associate, she was taught, never use your arms because you don't look professional. Well, what bad advice from her senior partner at her law firm. Now, I've tried to instill in her exactly the opposite in her reviews have just gone. Oh, so much higher up now that she is using her body because when you use your body, your tonality is also going to change.
Steve Fretzin 18:03
Well, there's there's also a level of, you know, NLP neuro linguistic programming that I'm hearing in what you're saying as it relates to, you know, using your arms to tell a story, right? You've got you've got to bring the listener in or the audience in and using your arms. I mean, it's a no brainer. I mean, you have to you have to do that non nonverbal communication and body language is a huge part of what makes someone successful as a speaker.
David Fram 18:27
Well, you and I know that, but so many lawyers don't know that. And so you're absolutely right. And that actually leads me to the next tip, which is connecting instantly, you said, Steve, as you were just talking about bringing your audience and what you know what you need to bring them in within the first 20 seconds of your talk. Because if you don't bring them in, in that 20 seconds, you're going to lose them to their cell phones, they're going to start checking their texts and their emails. And so those first words out of your mouth, as a speaker should be something exciting, something unexpected, something that that grips them that draws them in Now it could be it could be why you are so excited to be with this group right now explaining why. Or it could be you start off with some dramatic statistic, or, you know, what I think is a really good idea for a lot of speakers, if you're not naturally excited, is bring them in with a question. First thing out of your mouth, even before you start thanking the conference organizer for having you which is boring. Start off with a question to the group. How many of you have dealt with the issue of XYZ? get people to raise their hands or I'll tell you what I do. When I first start a presentation is I say to people, here's here's advice that I give and I'm going to lay out the three things you need. to document well, as soon as you say, I'm gonna lay out the three things you need to document, everybody automatically picks up the pencils, or their pads, because they realized I better write these down. What you know what, you got them, you got them, if they're picked up their pencil or their pen, you know, you have gotten their attention.
Steve Fretzin 20:19
Yeah, I absolutely love that tip. That's, that's a no brainer. I love that. And the one that I ask that that usually draws people in right away is, raise your hand if you went to law school, to then have to sell legal services. Right, right. And that's why they're all in the room for one reason, it's because no one wants to sell legal services, right, but it's now become part of the part of the deal. And so that question right away gets their attention. I'm here for that.
David Fram 20:47
Doesn't it? And Steve, what I would say is, is when you're asking that question, what I would do as a speaker, is I would physically raise my hand, which gives people permission to raise their hand. So you're using your body language when you're asking the question. It's just, you know, just a little, a little pointer, but I, I, yeah, really effective. Now, what what I see a lot of speakers do, especially legal speakers, is they start off presentations by saying, oh, not much has changed in this area of the law. And as soon as I hear a speaker say that, I just, I just shake my head. Why? Why? Why would you start a presentation by telling people why they don't need to listen to you. What you can do, even if not much has changed in this area of the law is you could say, we're going to talk about the things that have changed, we're going to talk about the things that haven't changed. And it's just as important for you to know what hasn't changed as what has changed. So So again, you're setting the stage, for the things you're going to say that haven't changed. But you've also explained to them why that's really important to take note of that. But my point here is start off your presentation in those first seconds with something that brings your audience in. And the next tip that correlates with this is to tell them, tell them, tell them, explain your roadmap, where you're going right up front, where you are, when you're in the middle of the speech, and then at the end, where you've been because people whether it's lawyers, whether it's lay people, they like knowing they like having that tidy package. Next tip, now, Steve, please interrupt me, you know, I realize what once once you rang in my back, I just start talking because I love talking. But but so don't be afraid to stop me if...
Steve Fretzin 22:43
I mean, my problem, David is that everything that you're saying is so on the money that if I stop you, I'm afraid my audience isn't going to get something, say I have a hard time I have a hard time, you know, stopping you. So let's just keep plowing through because I love everything you're saying I'm going to make mandatory for my clients to listen to.
David Fram 23:01
Oh, good. Okay, thanks. That my next tip is breaking it up. You know, as legal speakers, we we often have to speak for an hour, or sometimes two hours, or sometimes I give a sometimes I give all day, seminars, now webinars, where it might be, you know, five or six hours. And nobody, nobody, nobody can pay attention for an hour or two hours, much less six hours. Because what what neurologists have found is, and this shouldn't come as a surprise to you, or really anybody in your audience, is that humans pay attention for anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes before they start losing attention. And that's, for example, why Chris Anderson, who started TED Talks, makes TED Talks 18 minutes, because that's his theory on how long people can pay attention without losing interest. Now, having said that, look, our speeches often are more than 18 minutes. So the question the challenge is, what do I do? How do I keep people's attention? I mean, do I do I have to like give everybody a break after 18 minutes? No, but you do have to break it up. And it could be breaking it up with something as simple as a question, or a pop quiz, or a personal story. Like for example I I often give speeches with since I'm an employment lawyer, i a lot of a lot of the people that give speeches with our Employment Lawyers. One is a wage and hour lawyer and show in the middle of her talk start talking about when she was a teenager working at a fast food restaurant, how this particular Wage and Hour position she's just been talking about, what if applied to her. Well, you know what, it's relevant. It's relevant to understand the point. It also gives people a break, a break from I don't want to say monotony because a speech should never be monotonous, but a break from from that, that, that customary way that we're giving the talk on most recent cases. Now, one of the things I do Steve is I talk about my nephew's I've got a nephew who's the same age as the ADA. And as I said before, that's one of the talks that I give his, his his speeches on the A da. So it's the same age, meaning that when he was about two years old, that's when the appeals case started coming out. And so what I talked about in my speeches as I talk about my nephew, and how instead of reading him a bedtime story, when he was two or three years old, I would read him the Court of Appeals cases and how much he loved it now, you know, the questions he would ask me now, now, I know, I know. Sure, that can sound sort of goofy. And I know a lot of lawyers who, who are trying to look really professional, what want to do that. But people love it. You know what they feel like, they know me better, they connect with me better, I connect with them better. And it's really fun. It's fun. And now I get people all the time, who asked me about my nephew, Max, because they have known max for 30 years. Yeah, my neck. I'm sorry Steve, you had a question?
Steve Fretzin 25:56
Well, no, I was just gonna say it's, it's a lot of what you're talking about, is so true. And it just goes back to being authentic and how authentic you are, it helps determine I think, how much you're liked, or how much people are engaged by you. And talking about personal things like family or your personal experiences. I mean, that's just a huge part of I think what is memorable, but also, it's just so engaging.
David Fram 26:22
It is engaged, I love it, it's very engaging. And here, what we're talking about Steve is giving people more than just the content. Because if all you do is give people the content, they're not gonna walk away with much, no matter how much you want them to walk away with your content, they're not going to walk away with much if you haven't connected with them, if they haven't been paying attention. So I think I think it can be really fun for both the speaker and for the audience member. Now, along with this, my next tip is visuals, PowerPoint, for example. I think lawyers misuse PowerPoint, especially at in person conferences. But now we're even seeing it in a webinar context, you know, Who among us has not been to a speech, where one of the first things the lawyer says when he or she puts up it up on the screen is, I know, some of you in the back won't be able to see this. Again, I just cringe when I hear that. Because I'm thinking to myself, your visual should be enhancing what you're saying. It shouldn't be detracting. So if you think people can't see what you're using, then don't use it. Use something different don't have a whole screen of words that people can't see. If you really insist on using a visual, like PowerPoint in a great big conference room, then have a bullet that can be seen in the back of the room. That's enhancing what you're saying early. Now, in a webinar context, it's a little different because of course, we do need to have things in PowerPoint or whatever the platform is that we're using. We do need to have visuals, especially for CLE purposes. Some states ACLs require that you have a fairly detailed PowerPoint, but I would still say have your PowerPoint, enhancing what you're saying. So I would use visuals sparingly. I would always be asking myself is this particular visual, enhancing what I'm saying? Or am I just using as that as as a crutch? It should be enhancing, it shouldn't be really complex. We have to fight the urge to use all these fancy graphics that come bursting onto the screen. We have to fight the urge to use all all different size of fonts and different different fonts, all these different colors. You want to keep it simple, keep it straightforward, because remember, this is what I would always tell learners it is what I tell lawyers, when I coach, anything you are using visually should simply be enhancing you. It shouldn't be detracting from you. You should never ever put a visual up that has different words than you're saying. I mean, how often do you see somebody who's maybe talking about a regulation puts the entire regulation up on the screen and then starts paraphrasing. Instead of explaining the regulation they start paraphrasing. Well, that's impossible for an audience member to be reading what you just put up and listening to you. Your your visual should be enhancing what you're saying next time. This is a really really important thing for lawyers especially is watching the time make so many lawyers go over there a lot of time. And Steve, I'm afraid I'm going over my allotted time. So again, I need you to stop me if I'm talking too much. But the timing issue is, is absolutely essential for lawyers. Because often, if you're speaking at a conference, somebody's following you. And so if you go five minutes over, you just cut into their five minutes, especially if lunch is at the end of their talk, you just cut into their talk, which is, it's just not fair. It's not fair to the organizer, it's not fair to the next speaker. So you want to watch your timing. And what I say to people is, have notes in your speech that tells you exactly where you should be. I mean, it could be down to the to the three or four or five minutes, where you should be at a particular time. And if you see yourself slipping behind, then catch yourself up, then don't wait until the very end. Because if you wait until the end, you won't catch up. And you're going to have 20 more pages of materials, and five more minutes to talk. And then what do you do? Well, I'll tell you, what people do. Often, lawyers will say, Oh, I see I'm at a time, we're going to skip over the next 20 pages. Well, remember how we started, we said this is a gift, right? Well, if I said that to the group, we're going to skip over the next 20 pages, I've just said, Oh, I had this gift, but I'm not going to give it to you. You don't want to do that. Now. Now, having Having said this, look, we all do face this issue where we get behind from one reason or another we get behind. So Steve, here's my I call it a platinum tip that I give people who I'm coaching or even when I do, you know, I sometimes do webinar classes on public speaking, my tip is, instead of saying we're going to skip over the next 20 pages, just change it pitch it a little differently, say the next 20 pages are supplemental material for you to take home and read on your own. Now we're gonna go to page 41, what you just did is you've just instead of saying, Oh, I had this gift, and I'm taking it away, what you just did is you said Oh, and here's another gift for you, here's another 20 pages, they don't know that you planned on talking about it, and that you just ran out of time, they don't know that. They think that it's that it's a supplemental gift that you're giving them. So I think that's a really fun way to to deal with those unfortunate circumstances where you do run out of time. Steve, my final tip that I'd like to talk about, gosh, I have some more. I wish we had more time. Like I'm not going to talk right now about webinars unless you want to. But But before we get to that, if you want to come back to webinars, I would like to talk about ending a presentation because, again, this is an area where I see lawyers so frequently make mistakes, they get to the end of their, their slot, the conference organizer is up on the stage with them, the next speakers up on the stage with them, they're kind of nervous, they gonna get thrown off with questions and and they just say, oh, okay, I see my time is up. Thank you. Well, that's not a strong ending right? Now your ending, your ending should be a way that you're bringing it all together. That that that you're doing that final tell them in the tell them, tell them tell them. So what I suggest to my students is have that closing line or that closing couple of lines written down. I'm not saying read it to your group, but have it there have it there. So if you need it, you've got it, you can pull it out. And if you needed to, you could read it, but at least you're gonna end strong. So have your final thoughts written out so that you are never ending with? Oh, I see. I'm out of time. Or Oh, are there any questions? Oh, okay. Since there's no questions, thank you for having me. That's not a strong ending. Yeah, your strong ending written out?
Steve Fretzin 34:17
I tell I tell people to think about it like a story, right? Every good story has a beginning, a middle and an end. And what if you miss one of those three things? Right? It's not going to be a great story. So you have to you have to make sure that you've got everything laid out. And I do that again with the podcast. I do that in speaking and I think you have to you have to finish strong.
David Fram 34:37
Oh, Steve, I think you're great at it. I've listened to your podcast, you do it really well.
Steve Fretzin 34:42
Well, thank you. So I don't think we can finish this interview without hearing at least one or two points on webinar presentations because everybody's changing their whole world around the zoom and around webinars. And if there was just one or two things that you could say you briefly about it that would I think would be a great way for us to kind of wrap things up today.
David Fram 35:06
Okay, well, I think the most important thing with webinars, you know, all of these tips we've just gone through apply to webinars, including the visuals applies to webinars, as well as in person programs. The one thing that's super important with webinars is to make sure you've got your equipment that that's high quality has to be a good camera, and they're not expensive that can be this is a clip on Logitech cameras that you can put on the computer, if the computer doesn't have a good camera, your lighting needs to be really good. And I don't mean, I don't mean just putting a lamp in front of you. If you're really serious about giving a good webinar, you need to get light panels. And again, they're not expensive either, and they collapse. And you can get them online. But something that shines light directly on you, you need to have excellent sound quality that's even more important than camera and lighting. Because you could have great content, you've got to have great camera and lighting. And if people don't understand you, or it sounds like you're speaking from the bottom of the sink, you lose everybody. So you need to have and it could just be a lavalier mic again, we're not talking expensive things, my lavalier mic that I'm using cost $25. So it doesn't have to be super expensive. The camera, the lighting the microphone, and pay attention to the background. So often speakers sit in their living rooms, when they're doing these webinars. And your audience is looking around you at what's in your living room. They're looking at the photos that are sitting on your on your, your shelves, they're looking at, oh, what books does he read? No, I'm not saying that. But I am saying no, no. Well, no, really....
Steve Fretzin 36:54
I do it all the time. I do it all the time.
David Fram 36:58
Yeah. And I'm saying just make it intentional. If that's what you want people looking at, then do it. But if you really want people looking at you then do something different. Like what I do for my webinars now is I have a blue screen, it's a great big blue screen, you can get them they collapse, then they cut they unfold really easily. Because I want people it's it's not exciting, it's blue. But I want people looking at me or the things I'm putting on the screen, I don't want them looking at my books. Now if you do want them looking at your books, that's totally fine. Again, my only point is make it intentional. And final point, Steve that I I just have to say is that none of this will matter. If your WiFi isn't good. And you know what? Often WiFi goes out way more often than we'd like, Look, I've probably in the past four months, given 100 webinars. And twice it has happened to me and I've got good WiFi twice, it's happened that my WiFi has gone out in the middle of a webinar. Thank goodness, I had my phone set on Personal Hotspot so that the computer went straight to the phone. Now I had 10, 15 really anxious seconds, were the group where I lost the group because the WiFi went out, but the hotspot on the phone picked it back up. So what I say to anybody who I who I can can speak to about webinars is have a backup for your WiFi no matter how good your WiFi is.
Steve Fretzin 38:41
Yeah, that's great. That's great. So these are these are, you know, common sense stuff that people that do webinars as a part of doing business are a part of how they, you know, how they, you know, present and then there's other people that it's brand new. So I think these are very important tips. And I agree with you most mostly on the sound quality. I've got a really high end mic and a good computer and, and again, I won't listen to a podcast or, or or watch a video if the sound quality is bad. I'm out. That's like number one for me. Yeah, so I got it.
David Fram 39:11
No and Steve, you know what's so interesting is you said it's common sense. I agree. It's common sense. But I am telling you, I would say 90% not even 50% 90% of the webinars that I listened to because I listened to a lot of them because I'm always looking for good speakers for the conferences that I help organize. 90% of the speakers don't do these things. Their sound quality's bad, they're sitting in front of a window where they're completely backlit, or they have a computer that's that's looking up at them and you can see the ceiling behind them. If they're they're making these mistakes, they're not focused on this. I also should tell you, Steve, that that one of the people who I'm gonna say I discovered at an discover him, but it's it with somebody who I was listening to, because I listened to a lot of these webinars, I don't tell the the speakers, I don't want them to be nervous that I'm going to be kind of auditioning them in my own head. But one of the people who I thought is compelling is one of your clients, whose sound quality was great, his lighting was great, his content is great. He does all of the things. I mean, I think he just does them all naturally, the things that I've been giving you in terms of tips, so there are some people who have put in this time and attention. But I think 90% doubt, and that's what I'm trying to change.
Steve Fretzin 40:37
Yeah, well, that's why I think people need to listen to this interview and to your, you know, words of wisdom and experience and make the proper changes to get better value from the time that they're putting into this, if you're going to do something, you know, do it right. And if you don't know how to do it, right, well, then, you know, talk to, you know, experts and make sure that you are doing it better. I mean, the thing that I take, I take things a little different direction, you've got all the all the great tips about how to be a great presenter and how to make sure it gets to hits home and all that. And I, I can touch on that not anywhere near the level that you do. But I then try to also incorporate, as I mentioned earlier, how do we, you know, leverage these types of presentations to not only build the brand, and not only to give that gift that you talk of, but also to make sure that it leads to something because I think, you know, attorneys aren't necessarily always speaking for their health, or just strictly for the gift, I think they're seeing that this is a way that I can actually get in front of general counsel's I can get in front of CEOs. And if so I want them to then try to engage me or hope that they engage me afterward. So we have to look at that too. But I think everything you share today is so onpoint is a lot of this also available or for people in your book, raising the bar, how to give outstanding legal presentations.
David Fram 41:50
It is so great, like so it's, that's, that's on Amazon. And then the other thing I do from time to time, I obviously do this, that's, for example, law firms hire me to, to speak to their lawyers. But I also have started giving webinars for individuals who can sign up for the webinars, so and it's just such a passion project. For me, I just, I love, love, love helping people be better speakers. And what you were just saying, Steve is is so important, at what can lead to when you are a good speaker, because when you are a good speaker, and you do connect, maybe with this human resource professional, and then they put you in touch with their general counsel. That's how you get business. So it all leads something even besides just the love of a good speaker.
Steve Fretzin 42:42
But again, and to kind of wrap things up with don't do it halfway. I mean, if you're going to be a presenter for speaker or keynote, you're gonna you know, try to make that a part of your career and how you grow your practice, then you better study on it, you know, you look you you prepare for trials, you prepare for, you know, client meetings, but you're not going to prepare to get in front of 100 people and give a presentation. I mean, that makes no sense at all. So David, I just can't thank you enough for for coming on the show and for sharing all this great wisdom and all these great tips. And if we went long for people, then too bad, you know, they should be they should be you know, taking notes every minute of this free of this of this podcast, because you're just giving away gifts every every every step. So is there anything coming up that you'd like to promote? Or how do people get in touch with you?
David Fram 43:30
Well, the you can just go to my website, which is DavidkFram, david, the initial k f like Frank ram, like Mary Davidkfram.com. And you'll see upcoming webinars, I have a webinar coming up in two weeks for individuals, and I post them from time to time.
Steve Fretzin 43:51
Well, that's just great. And I'm going to encourage people to attend that. And quite frankly, I might attend it because I look I speak constantly in front of all different kinds of groups. And I'm taking notes as you're as you're giving them to me here. So we all we all can improve. It doesn't matter how many presentations you've given. You've got to keep looking to the future and improving. That's just that's just the way things have to be. So listen, David, thank you again. And I just want to thank everyone for listening today. I hope you enjoy the show. I know I did. And the goal is to help you get one step closer to being that lawyer someone who's confident, organized and most importantly a skilled Rainmaker. Thanks Everybody take it easy.
Narrator 44:32
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.