In this episode, Steve Fretzin and David Ackert discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Business development is the exercise of helping people be their best selves in the context of the relationships that can help their businesses grow." — David Ackert
Connect with David Ackert:
Website: AckertInc.com
YouTube: youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDc61u78wxY5EU8F4Gw5FY_pDKXnIjSRo
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/ackert-inc. & linkedin.com/in/davidackert
Twitter: twitter.com/davidackert
Facebook: facebook.com/ackertinc
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
David Ackert 0:00
That's where a lot of lawyers are struggling, they can't just kind of be in the flow and talk to the people they enjoy and meet new people whose company they will also enjoy and then just let those opportunities flow in. Instead, they have to be very purposeful, very intentional, and a little bit forceful about it so that they can continue to kind of push this rock uphill.
Narrator 0:23
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:45
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I'm Steve Fretzin. And I appreciate you take some time this morning. A little bit about the show. It is all about you, the lawyer learning business development, marketing, branding, LinkedIn, anything that can help you to be a stronger business developer. And I have a treat for you today. David Ackert, is another very, very well known business development coach has been in the space longer than I have, and very excited to have him as my guest today. David, how are you?
David Ackert 1:15
Doing great, Steve, thanks so much for having me on the show today.
Steve Fretzin 1:18
Absolutely. My pleasure. And of course, my audience knows I do a terrible job on the bio. So could you take a few minutes and just give us a little of Reader's Digest on your on your background?
David Ackert 1:27
Sure. So I've been in the business of helping lawyers, among other service providers with business development challenges for nearly 20 years now. My company is called Ackert. And we have developed both coaching and training programs that we administer to firms large and small across the globe. And we've also developed proprietary technologies that we license into firms, primarily pipeline plus, which is a program that helps lawyers prioritize their key relationships so that their business development is focused and organized.
Steve Fretzin 2:00
Excellent. So you're doing a lot of things to help people with their growth, help lawyers, you know, improve their business development is kind of a fun way to start the show today, I thought, if there was something fun or interesting about you that maybe not many people know that you'd be willing to share?
David Ackert 2:15
Sure, well, my first career was actually completely unrelated to what I'm doing right now, I was an aspiring television actor. And I probably shouldn't even say aspiring because I had the opportunity to act on a number of shows back in the 90s, I was on NYPD Blue and the West Wing and six feet under and a bunch of really good shows. So I had a good run as an actor playing the villain of the week on on television for a while. And then I've sort of ran out of gas on that particular career and ended up getting my master's in psychology and marrying a lawyer. And my whole career sort of took a turn into what I'm doing now. But if you had asked me 30 years ago, if I'd be doing this, I would have told you no way I'm going to be a movie star.
Steve Fretzin 3:04
Well, it sounds like you had some really amazing roles. In fact, I think I may have to go to YouTube and see if I can find some of them. Now, that you mentioned it.
David Ackert 3:12
Well, these are such ancient history now that you won't find them on YouTube. But if you're if you're really digging on Netflix, you may see me on a on an old episode of, you know, monk, or west wing or one of those shows. And certainly if you want to go to IMBB, you'll get a long list of all the stuff I used to do.
Steve Fretzin 3:29
Well, I'm a big fan of all those shows. So I definitely will go back and at least try to search.
David Ackert 3:33
How about you? What what what do your listeners not know about you?
Steve Fretzin 3:37
I think one of the things that they may not know is that back when I was in my 20s, I was involved in a small plane crash flying back from Eagle River, Wisconsin, back to Chicago, and we lost our engine. And it's a crazy story. It's a great story over a beer. We crashed, landed into a house and I was a human pretzel for a while. And a lot of the recovery time was thinking about my life and how lucky I was that I was alive because I don't think too many people survive that type of situation. But at the end of the day, it really made me think hard about my career and and what I wanted to do is really just spend my time helping people and figuring out different ways to do that in sales is sort of a weird way to do that. Although you're solving problems, you know, I don't know if people think about advertising and how that, you know, you know, helps them in their life. But it turned out that sales and training and coaching all came together for me in the legal industry and and that's where I've spent the majority of my career. But it's it's bizarre when I think back to that, to that day and all the things that could have gone different in my life had we not crashed and if I'd have a whole different life, so it's really very, very interesting, but most people don't know that I went through that and I do bring it up in my first book sales, reselling, but it's not common knowledge. So that's kind of a weird, twisting.
David Ackert 4:57
I know it sounds like a real formative experience and you know your life flashed before your eyes and you had a chance to really, really reflect, I appreciate what you're saying about wanting to help people and sales. Some people might think that that's a strange way to do that. But, you know, people like you and I, who geek out about this stuff all the time, have a lot of time to kind of reframe it for ourselves, perhaps. And one of the things that I often think about, so I have this 11 year old in my life through the big brother's program, we've been working together for about five years or so. And, you know, I don't have biological kids of my own, but I do try to instill good values to him. And when I think about the things that I hope I'm influencing him on, they are things like, the ability to develop relationships that are meaningful in his life, the courage to communicate what he wants, in those relationships, the ability to think downstream, and really, you know, create a future that is consistent with his dreams. And you know, all of those are also the things that you and I work with our clients on every day, right. And at the end of the day, business development is very much the exercise of helping people be their best selves in the context of the relationships that can help their businesses grow. So I think what you do is helpful, I think what I do is helpful, and it's certainly one way to be a contribution in the world.
Steve Fretzin 6:22
Well, it's interesting this, that if you and I think about the old school, train of thought, or, or persona of sales, right of this dirty word that lawyers hate, which I get, I get that connotation, because in the old days, when I was selling advertising, or I was selling franchises, or things, you know, my job was to convince people to do what I wanted them to do, because they were interested, A, but B, because that's how I made a commission. And, and I always did it in with integrity. And I never was underhanded. But, you know, people have felt that the state of the industry of sales, and I guess lawyers also have there's a potential negative connotation there. But in sales, it's always been about convincing, and trying to push a round peg into a square hole and don't take no for an answer. And what lawyers don't realize is there's been a major shift in the last 20 years. And we can bring the word sales back, that's fine. We'll call it business development for now. But it's about listening and asking and learning and understanding and empathy. And these are skills that need to be instilled in children at an early age and, and it's going to benefit everybody to be a better person, a better relationship, a better listener. And so I think we have to sort of look at, you know, the mindset of, of what it means to do business development, and it's honorable, it's trying to find a fit or a win win between a customer client or in the lawyer, that's going to be the best person to potentially solve an issue.
David Ackert 7:50
Well, that's right. And I think the more we can remove the stigmas that are certainly outdated and no longer reflective of the more sophisticated thinking that has come forward in the in the past 10 or 20 years, the more people are freed up to relax into the process and obviously be able to be more proficient with it.
Steve Fretzin 8:09
So so let's get into the the nuts and bolts. I mean, what are you seeing out there? As far as the types of challenges and issues that lawyers are struggling with? The kind of top three, what do you what do you think, what are you seeing out there right now?
David Ackert 8:20
Well, I'll tell you, you know, certainly since the pandemic, the whole process of business development has become much more challenging for lawyers. And really, anyone who's networking includes the process of adding new contacts to your network, right? I mean, I would ask you this question. And I'd certainly answer similarly to many of the people that I've talked to. But how many new people have you met in the last six or seven months, compared to how many new people had you met in the six or seven months prior to that, right? I mean, I can count on one or two hands, the number of new contacts I've made since the pandemic, whereas before the pandemic, I was meeting new people all the time and going to conferences and being introduced to people and being referred to people and you know, it was a much more vibrant in flux of new contacts. So you know, with that, no longer happening quite as often given that a lot of these forums where we used to meet people are, at least for now put on pause. I think what has occurred is this transition between organic business development and inorganic business development. And what I mean by that is, you know, organic, business development is the best time that's where you're, you've gone to a restaurant with your spouse, and you're relaxing, you're having a nice glass of wine. And you look across the dining room, and there's someone who you know, from law school, or high school, or, you know, a former job, and you're like, oh, my goodness, I haven't seen them in four or five years and you walk across the restaurant and, you know, your spouse comes over and you're saying, Hey, how are you? Oh, my goodness, you look great. And this is my spouse and they say, this is my date or whatever. Everybody's meeting each other. It's just flowing right? This is a conversation that was going to happen anyway. And sure enough, at the end of the conversation, they say, you know what, I'm glad you walked over here, I actually have a referral for you, you know what, I'm gonna shoot you an email on Monday, and we need to talk. That's fantastic, right? It's organic business development, or you go to a conference and you run into someone. And the last time you saw them was the last time you went to the conference. And after you're done catching up, they say, you know what, actually come with me over to the exhibit floor, because there's somebody you have to meet, I think they need your firm, they need your firm's services. And so they walk you over, and it all flows. And it's perfect, right. And that is the kind of thing that we ideally look for, as sort of the the optimal business development experience. But with the pandemic, there's none of that the only kind of business development that's occurring is this very sort of forced structured, one party has to reach out to the other party, we have to put a calendar appointment in place, we have to include a zoom link, and for the next 30 minutes, we are going to have a conversation with an agenda. You know, it's it's very inorganic, and that's not everybody's cup of tea. And I think that's where a lot of lawyers are struggling, they can't just kind of be in the flow and talk to the people they enjoy and meet new people whose company, they will also enjoy, and then just let those opportunities flow in. Instead, they have to be very purposeful, very intentional, and a little bit forceful about it so that they can continue to kind of push this rock uphill.
Steve Fretzin 11:19
Yes, I mean, I think that that's a major challenge. And it's it's taking, maybe if we break people into extroverts and introverts, it's breaking the extroverts down a bit, because that's been their bread and butter, you know, the golfing excursion to conferences, the wining and dining that's been that's been bread and butter for, you know, 30 years. And so now they're, you know, they're in a different a different place where it's, it's certainly, you know, less personal, less relationship driven. It's definitely a challenge.
David Ackert 11:47
Is that consistent with what you're seeing?
Steve Fretzin 11:49
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's sort of bittersweet, I think, on one hand, you know, is it better to go out to Denver to, you know, you know, meet clients and meet with a bunch of prospects and in their environment and have that two or three days to go build relationships? I mean, yeah, that's, that's a wonderful thing to do. However, now that we're all, you know, doing zoom meetings, other things, I think the efficiency has gone way up. I mean, the idea that, you know, I'd have four, and I'm in the city of Chicago, and I go into the loop. And I'd have a day and my day was, you know, for meetings, and that was considered a really busy day. And now I'm having 7, 8, 9 meetings a day, you know, and it's, it's all, you know, being auto scheduled, and very easy. And it's, it's so I think that it's more efficient. But I think it's much more you have to really be, you have to have your act together, and you have to be more prepared to make it more social or to make it more, you know, a conversational versus forced.
David Ackert 12:50
No, I think that's right. And there's definitely something to be said about the distinction of quantity over quality, right? I mean, you can have seven or eight meetings, but do they even move your business forward as much as the for in person meetings, or having pre pandemic, I think it's also useful to sort of note the fact that, and you alluded to this, just now, we interact very differently over zoom than we do if we're in the same room together. I don't know if you've noticed this, but all of my zoom interactions kind of cut to the chase with very little time spent on so what did you do over the weekend? And, you know, got any plans for the summer? And what are you planning to, you know, do over the holidays? And, you know, did you catch the game, and you know, all that stuff that really creates the fabric of rapport. A lot of that goes away, because nobody did anything interesting over the weekend since COVID hit. So there's less to report there. But also, I just think that, again, there's a bit of a sterile dynamic that falls in place when we find ourselves having a zoom meeting versus a more relaxed in person meeting.
Steve Fretzin 13:58
So maybe that's, you know, the the turning point for us in this conversation is to start talking about how do we how do we turn the tables? How do we take a bad situation like COVID, and zoom meetings and things that are really taking some people out of their game? And what are the kinds of things that you and I are suggesting on a regular basis to, you know, take the lemons and make lemonade. So what are what are one or two things of just as a starting point that you're working with your clients on and recommending that's, that's helping them get through this in in a positive way?
David Ackert 14:31
Sure. Well, I think one thing that we need to acknowledge is, again, back to this notion of meeting new people, if that's off the table, and we look at the framework of our network, in terms of there being an inner circle. So those are your family, your closest friends, you know, that's the inner circle of people and you're already in touch with them pandemic or know you've reached out to them, you're making sure that they're doing okay, you're probably checking in with them fairly regularly. These are the most important people in your life, right? And maybe there's a dozen of them. Maybe there's a few more, a few less than But that's a manageable number. And frankly, it doesn't have a lot to do with business development, that's just managing our personal relationships. And then as you go to the next ring out, you have, you know, friends, people with whom you have a really solid relationship. And some of those are social relationships. Some of them are professional, in some cases, they're your clients. So you've been working with for so long, you've really become friends, you've developed a real bond on the golf course as you as you say, or in some other context. And then there's that third circle of people who we barely know, at all, there are acquaintances, there are prospects, you know, we hope that at some point, they might engage our services, or we might be able to convert them into some more meaningful relationship. But they're definitely the the third, you know, outermost ring. And I think it's that third outermost ring that is most compromised in this current environment, again, because we're just not meeting that many new people, we're not having that many chance run ins with people that we aren't making a concerted effort to connect to. So that means we need to be focused on our inner circle. And that second circle of friends, those are the calls that we're not going to hesitate to make, those are the people who we're going to, you know, have no trouble reaching out to developing a conversation with and maturing that relationship. And we really need to focus there. So you know, the first thing that we're always telling lawyers to do, and certainly, recently, even more so is taking an inventory of who those people are, like, you know, get a sense of who are your key clients who are your key relationships in terms of your referral sources, and then your key prospects, you know, write those names down, because arguably, especially during the pandemic, this is your most valuable asset in your practice, even more than your expertise, even more than anything else you care to name, it's the people with whom you already have some momentum, some connection, some level of trust, who you can deepen those relationships with and build some momentum with. And if you don't even know who those people are, if you haven't taken an inventory, if you're just sort of, you know, using your memory or ad, they'll reach out to me when they need need me are taking a more passive approach, then I would argue that you really have no way of harnessing this very valuable asset and being organized and focused about the outreach that you ultimately engage in with those people.
Steve Fretzin 17:27
So what is the plan of action? Then you've got this list of these very close clients and friends and people that are valuable to your business development opportunities. What's the next play?
David Ackert 17:43
Great question. So you know, we've developed pipeline plus our software platform to send people reminders on what to do with these various relationships, there's AI and the tool that gives specific recommendations. And some of those recommendations range from, you know, reach out to them once a month, at a minimum, so don't let any more than 30 days go by without checking in with them. And when you check in with them, don't sort of take the the the low road with this. In other words, don't just send them a quick email saying, hey, hope all's well, you know, just want to get it. I'm thinking of you. Because what are you going to get back? You're going to get an email. It's like, Great, thanks, thinking of you to hope all's well with you. You didn't advance the relationship with that perfunctory exchange of niceties. What are meaningful outreach looks like is a real time two way conversation. So that's either a phone call, or it's a zoom call. And that's where you can really get into, you know, what are you experiencing? What are you seeing? What are your needs? What problems are emerging for you? And how can I help whether that's through my services or through an introduction or through a resource or just being a kind ear, but you've got to sort of, you know, the good news is, this is a shortlist list of people. The bad news is you do have to invest some time in each of these people, and you can't kind of, you know, check a box and just say, hey, look, I sent out a newsletter, everybody, that should be good enough. So you know, that's, that's point number one is, once you have the list, you want to have monthly at least outreach to all of those people, real time two way conversation where you're, you know, catching up with them socially, asking them what's going on for them? What are they struggling with? What's going on in their world that is maybe you know, giving them pause? And how can you provide some sort of help in that regard?
Steve Fretzin 19:28
Got it. Got it. And so, you know, I think one thing that I that I've been seeing is, is a fear to do that the idea of picking up the phone or the idea of emailing lawyers just you know, they don't want to bother the GC, they don't want to bother their client with these calls that are directly about the business at hand. How do they finesse or what are some things that you suggest they do to get the conversation going in a positive direction?
David Ackert 19:57
Well, I think it's really important for lawyers to have talking points. And you know, if you think about the practice of law, at no point does a lawyer start with a blank Word document and then go draft an agreement, right? I mean, they usually start with precedent, they start with another one that they drafted for another client and they amend it. You know, the idea here is you don't want to just start from scratch that is very daunting. But if you have some talking points that you can work off of like, oh, okay, here's one, how is your company navigating the current situation? What are you seeing? I'd also like to share with you what we're seeing, because we're talking to, you know, other businesses like yours, as they navigate these conditions, or what is your three or six or nine month plan? You know, in light of the upcoming election, if it goes one way, how do you plan to pivot versus if it goes the other way, because, of course, they're going to be some tax implications for you to consider. Or another talking point might be, you know, many of our clients are undergoing staffing changes, some of them have furloughed, some of them have let some people go, if there are any hires you're looking to make or any gaps, you're looking to fill in your company or your legal department, I'd like to keep an eye out for you. So let's get on a call so I can understand what your needs are. And I can start looking in my network for ways to help you Right, so each of these ideas are just a way to kind of start the conversation so that you aren't left with, I don't know, have you been, you're still living in the same house, you're still married to the same person? Right, we just end up kind of drawing a blank of what to say if we don't have any talking points that kind of justify that outreach.
Steve Fretzin 21:30
Right. Right. That's correct.
David Ackert 21:32
What about you? What kinds of recommendations are you I want to make sure you're getting equal airtime? Here, Steve, you're being kind enough to have me on your show? You are, you're an expert in your own right with this stuff. So feel free to chip in?
Steve Fretzin 21:44
Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, I think your points are spot on. And if I can go back to something we were talking about earlier, mind zoom calls, and then I'll lead into the current topic. So one thing that I know, as soon as I say this, you're gonna go Yep, I say, you know, I recommend that too, but is I am and I do recommend spending some time prior to getting on these zoom calls, to really prepare, through your research through knowing that your client has three kids, and one just had a bar mitzvah, knowing that they're in an area that's been hit by fires in knowing that they're passionate about bass fishing, and you want to ask them, have they taken any bass fishing trips lately, something that's going to get them talking so that they don't jump into business right away. Because you know, getting right down to it might be great from a time perspective. But it's not great from a relationship trust building and and getting into a groove with someone I equated to building a skyscraper and deciding to start building on the 50th floor. I think we all know, we've got to build the basement in the lobby, and we've got to put some structure in place that leads up to the top. So I think that's where I would start as sort of a backpedaling of a topic we had a few minutes ago. And then leading into the the current topic about what are we what are we reaching out about, I think all of your ideas are terrific. One that I would add that again, it can't come across false or can't come across in January, is, this is a great time for us to help each other. This is a great time to you know, get back on a call learn, you know, just just try to understand what you're challenged by what I'm challenged by if it's a networking setup, for example, and let's try to come up with some ways to add value for each other. Let's try to add some, some help to each other. And I think people are more open to that than ever. Because either they have the time now that didn't have six months ago or eight months ago, I'm losing track of how long ago this thing, how long this has been going on David, you know, and then and then being being really sincere to try to figure out how can I help this person? And what, what are their business and personal needs? And I think what happens when you do that in a sincere way and in a genuine way, they're going to ask you the same, they're going to say alright, that's super helpful. What can I do for you, and this is sometimes where lawyers lose it. And they don't lose it. Like psychologically, they lose it and they in the sense that they go, well just keep your eyes open for me if you know someone that needs, you know, a GC that needs, you know, a million dollars in their work to go to somebody, you know, it's not going to happen. So here's where we need to step up as as, as you know, you're a coach, I'm a coach and we need to tell lawyers, you need to be a coach. You need to help coach, your friend, your clients, your strategic partner through the process of helping you. They want to help you you've helped them you've done great work you've done you've stepped up and if the don't assist them in the process of helping you by being clear and specific and giving them direction. It can all fall apart in the call that could have led to to a new matter, a new client a new opportunity, a new strategic partner, it can all go away. So we really need to be prepared for that. And, David, I have a process for that. Do you have something that you're that you're, you know, utilizing as a process or as language to help your clients convert to help them actually make an introduction sticky?
David Ackert 25:22
Yeah, so I think you can either approach this very specifically or categorically, it really just depends on how much time you have and care to invest on the front end. You know, if you've gone on their LinkedIn in advance, and you see that they're connected to someone who you'd like an introduction to, then, you know, you can always say, Listen, I was on LinkedIn, I saw that you're connected to Marty at such and such a company. And he's exactly the kind of people we like to work with, do you know Marty well enough that you could make an introduction, and maybe they do, maybe they don't, but either way, you've painted a very clear picture of the profile of the kind of person that you would like introductions to. So that's, you know, being pretty specific. And if you want to be more categorical, you know, and I'm sure you do this, Steve, you're, you're coaching your clients to at least be able to define by category, the key characteristics of the kinds of referral sources that they want to meet. By the way, referral sources are always an either easier introduction than a prospect, because you know, the referral source, there's a clear understanding of, you know, we're going to meet and look for synergies, nobody's pitching anybody anything specific. Or if it is a prospect request, you know, I'm really interested in meeting GCs of companies that look like this, or I'd really be interested in meeting, you know, the C suite at, you know, companies in the local Chicago area with more than 100 employees, you know, whatever it is that you can kind of define categorically. So those are a couple of ways to approach that.
Steve Fretzin 26:54
Yeah. And it's, it's, I tell my son, I hope he's not listening at the door. But, you know, he's Tell him to finish the story. And what I mean by that is that sometimes people get kind of far enough into something, and then they just don't finish. And it's like, it's like, what happens if you're watching a great movie, and you just stop at 20 minutes to the end, you know, you're you're leaving out possibly the best part. So what I try to do to, to make it simple is to use it in an analogy, like three doors, okay, I guess there used to be a show called let's make a deal. And there were three curtains, but this is a little different. And the first door might be your point about a LinkedIn contact, or a specific company that you know, your friend is, is, you know, used to work at or is in was involved with, or it's just a clear, no brainer, you know, top of the line type of introduction that you could go for, where it's very direct. If that doesn't stick or take or, or, or just not in the cards, they're working with someone, they're never going to leave whatever the case might be, don't be afraid to go to door number two, and door number two might be either a different potential prospect, or it could be to your point, a strategic partner referral source center of influence. And this is where you might say, well, I also, you know, I like to network with CPAs, I like to network with high net worth Wealth Advisors, and in Who do you know, in that category, and so you're moving from one door to the next, as opposed to giving up? Right, as opposed to just saying, Well, if you think of anything, let me know, which generally goes nowhere. Okay, so people that do a ton of networking, and don't seem to be feeling like they're getting anywhere, or legitimately are not getting anywhere, it's typically because they don't have a process to follow, they just kind of go with the flow, and they hope for the best and those are all great things to do it but not if you want to actually get somewhere or have good use of your time. So that could be a second door. And then a third door might be either, you know, giving that person some time to think about it and getting a date scheduled three to five to seven days away to talk about it again. Or it might be you know, going just with a different segment, like you know, a different industry a different, you know, sector. But either way, what you're doing is you're putting out an effort and coaching the person through a couple different directions, and not being aggressive and not being forceful, but being helpful. And, and even asking permission, say, Well, look, I mean, you mind if I if I you know, if we talk through this together, do you mind if I coach you for a minute on this because I think I might have some ideas that might be helpful, you know, to have you help me. And the person says, oh, that'd be great. And they appreciate that they don't have to use the brainpower to try to come up with it on their own, that they're actually getting help out of you to make this work and in a positive direction. So I think those are some things that we can put all together and it's going to make someone more you know, more accurate in their ability to to make it happen.
David Ackert 29:50
Yeah, that's a great framework Steve, the three doors, one thing that you just called the mind as you were going through that is bringing us back to this idea of the the concentric circles, you The people who are part of your inner circle, and then there's the people that are in the next ring out your friends. And you always want to keep in mind that when you're having this kind of a conversation with someone, when they genuinely ask you, you know, how can I help? Or, you know, is there anything I can do for you? And to your point, Steve, which is a great one, you always want the answer to that question to be Yes, but be prepared with what it is that you're asking for. Keep in mind that it's always easier for people to make introductions closer to the inside of that circle, right. So one other thing you can also do is just say, you know, what, I'm just really interested in meeting quality human beings, you know, preferably people who are in the business community, preferably people who are I don't have lawyers, I get a lot of referrals from other lawyers, or maybe people who are in the business community as service providers who have access to the middle market. But first and foremost, just, if there's someone who you really trust someone who you really think is a quality human being, I'd love to meet them, right, if they're in the business community, I bet you will find the synergy at the very least, we know we both have pretty good tasting friends. And that's a great place to start simply because it goes back to the very first distinction you were making between business development and sales, it's a little more transactional, it's a little more like sales to say, hey, connect me to a GC so I can pitch them, it's a lot more like business development or relationship development to say, Hey, I just want to make reasonably meaningful connections with other human beings and just trust that the business will flow from there. That's business development, that's developing relationships with people who will ultimately make up the fabric of this, you know, network that you are building. And so to have them look through the lens of the people that they think would be compatible connections for you is also another angle on this.
Steve Fretzin 31:45
Yeah, I love that. And I also think people need to understand, it isn't always the first you know, where the one person that you're talking to where things end up, where they where you want them to be. So if I'm meeting with a client, and the client gets me in front of a strategic partner, or our or center of influence that that the client knows. And I think, Oh, well, that's the person that's going to be my referral source. And that person ends up referring me to someone else, and that person ends up being my client or my referral. So we have to understand that it isn't, it isn't just a one one and done situation. Sometimes these relationships evolve in these relationships. This goes back to maybe your point about organic, that sometimes organically, they go in a direction that ends up taking you to the right place, or the place you want it to be it just didn't happen in the first meeting with the first person.
David Ackert 32:35
Yeah, that the genuine path is almost always the right one, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to force this stuff, you can get strategic about it, you can get thoughtful about it, you can apply best practices to it. And all of that is great. And folks like Steve and I can can help you think along those lines. But if it ever starts to feel disingenuous, you're pretty much guaranteed to be on the wrong path.
Steve Fretzin 32:58
Yeah, that's a no, that's a, no doubt, no brainer. Let me ask you just kind of wrapping things up. Is there is there one thing that you would say to the lawyers out there listening that, that they really need to they need to think about maybe now more than ever, is there something that you would put out there just a statement that that they that they should take hold off?
David Ackert 33:20
I think I would just really reiterate what I said earlier, it only takes five to 10 minutes to make this list of names. And again, you think about it through the lens of who are my top clients? Who are my top referral sources? And who are my top prospective clients? You know, in other words, who are the most valuable professional relationships in my network currently, take the five or 10 minutes, think about that, write down their names. And then the next actions will really flow from there, because you'll look at the list and you'll say, Oh, my gosh, Mary Jones, I haven't talked to Mary Jones, since the pandemic and yet I wrote her down here, as you know, one of the people who's my most valuable referral source, I mean, last year, she sent me like three major matters, but I haven't been in touch with her all year and 2020, what's going on here, I need to reach out to Mary Jones. That's absolutely the next action you should be taking from a business development perspective. But if we're so busy, billing, our six minute increments and managing the stress of you know, working from home, and whatever psychological stress is going on, just through you know, managing this current environment. We never stopped to take that breath and make that list and look out for our own interests. We have to remember that we are wired as service providers to serve other people's needs. And our own needs usually fall lower on that list than theirs when we're so deadline driven. So sort of putting out other people's fires oriented. So that's what I would say do yourself, this is for you the favor of taking those 10 minutes carving them aside and writing down those names so that you can start to take responsibility for The outcomes that you're hoping for from those relationships.
Steve Fretzin 35:03
And I'm going to add on to that, and we're going to wrap up with that, and that is get the list together, I think that without that list, you're just you're just you're feeling around in the dark. Okay, so that's absolutely has to happen. And the second thing that I would say, after that is, get some time in your calendar to specifically email three people a week, five people a week to people, you decide the number of how many meetings or how many calls or how many zooms you want, or can handle. And you got to take action on the list. And so, you know, get your script together, schedule some time, try to make it a routine, it could be the first, you know, Tuesday morning of every week or whatever, but get into a routine where you're actually taking action. So that way the list can take hold, and you can start seeing some results from the efforts. And I think that's, that's, you know, the easiest stuff for lawyers to do, and yet get a tremendous return. So I think that's great. And so, David, let me ask you, in wrapping up, is there anything that you would like to promote? Or is there something How do people get in touch with you? Where do we leave things?
David Ackert 36:10
Sure, well, if they want to go to Ackert Inc, so that's ackertinc.com, they'll see all of the various products and services we've developed, we've got a lot of free resources on their white papers, they can download about the industry videos, they can watch with business development tips, you know, it's a chock full of resources. So by all means, go there. And if you have any questions about any of those items, you can certainly contact me through the website.
Steve Fretzin 36:37
Fantastic, fantastic. And again, just thanks for taking the time to come on the show. You know, there are people who would say, hey, David, Hey, Steve, you guys are our competitors. You're both in the same in the same business doing the same things? Why are you cooperating? Why are you collaborating? And I think it's just easy to say it this way. You know, we're competing against apathy, you know, we're competing against lawyers who are not doing the right things are not doing anything at all. And there there's a definite need. So I think I think it's so important for us to work together to help this industry, improve and make better decisions about how they're going to approach things like business development. So I, I just commend you for taking the time to be with me today.
David Ackert 37:17
Well, I appreciate the invitation. Steven, I agree with you, you know, on paper, one might say we're competitors. But you know, how many lawyers do you know who have gotten referrals from opposing counsel? How many lawyers do you know who've gotten referrals from people who do exactly what they do, but they were conflicted out? I mean, at the end of the day, you know, if you pad your network with people who, if you're just kind of being instinctive about it might be opposed to your agenda. But if you really think it through and develop a relationship and look for ways to help them, you know, they're human nature will went out and they'll help you back. I mean, I think that's a philosophy that has certainly paid off in my career. It sounds like it hasn't years to
Steve Fretzin 37:58
Yeah, and I appreciate your your spending some time and also just your commitment to the industry. I think it's terrific. So thanks again.
David Ackert 38:05
My pleasure.
Steve Fretzin 38:06
Awesome. Hey, everybody, listen, thanks for taking some time and listening to the show today. Hopefully you got some good tips and takeaways and you're one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe, be well.
Narrator 38:25
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for thrilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.