In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Daliah Saper discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Do whatever you can to be as visible as possible and then you will see how things naturally build upon each other." — Daliah Saper
Connect with Daliah Saper:
Twitter: @SaperLaw
Facebook: Saper Law Offices, LLC
Website: SaperLaw.com
YouTube: Saper Law Videos
LinkedIn: Saper Law Offices, LLC & Daliah Saper
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Daliah Saper 0:00
Do whatever you can to be as visible as possible. And then you will see how things naturally build upon each other.
Narrator 0:11
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:34
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And if you're a first time listener, I am a business development coach for attorneys helping them to double or triple their books of business. And part of what I do is help them in any way I can, giving tips and tricks and ideas, and having amazing guests on my show, to help to share their stories and insights. Today, we are super happy and excited to have Dahlia cepr. She is an IP attorney and adjunct professor at Loyola law school, and really a pioneer in social media entertainment and technology law. And she's been all over the media, CNN, Fox, ABC, you name it. And I want to welcome Dahlia.
Daliah Saper 1:16
Thanks for having me, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 1:17
Oh, thanks for being here. Really, really happy to talk with you, you and I have known each other for many years. And I just I just had to have you on my show to kind of have people understand your story. And maybe you can do a you know, a little bit of justice to my my terrible bio, I knew that didn't cover everything, but maybe give our listeners a little bit more of a background on yourself and your practice. And, you know, what are you doing to help people out there solve problems?
Daliah Saper 1:42
Sure, I founded safer law in 2005. So this year marks our 15th anniversary year being in business awesome. I started the firm shortly out of law school after a year with a solo and after having had a summer associates job at a big firm, so you know, truly haven't had exposure to much traditional law firm settings. But nonetheless, when I started my firm, I figured what can I focus my practice on in a way that someone would be willing to hire a 20 something year old at a loss. And necessarily, that ended up being anything and everything internet related. And in that sense, I had no real disadvantage of if anything, it's somewhat of an advantage because of my age. And the rest is really history. Over time, I've positioned myself to, like you said, be someone who understands social media law issues relating to novel technologies, new new industries. And as a result, I've been interviewed by the news media a lot. I teach at Loyola and entertainment course, where social media is a big portion of the curriculum. And yeah, it's a fun practice area.
Steve Fretzin 2:54
Very cool. Very cool. And, you know, just just since we're on the topic, because you're an authority, what are some of the do's and don'ts for attorneys regarding their online reputation and social media.
Daliah Saper 3:04
I think it's important to have a presence, that's not just tied to, you know, the firm, you want to be sure that there's enough information out there, such that if you are the victim of a disgruntled client, or you know, who knows, whatever it could be out there, that there's enough positive content out there, and it would mitigate anything that's negative. And that could be as simple as updating your LinkedIn regularly, creating a blog or tweeting positive, you know, content that's associated with you, I think the risk of being afraid of having any content online means that if there were one negative post or comment made about you can have a much more devastating impact, then, you know, like, one out of 50 bad reviews or commentary about you.
Steve Fretzin 3:47
Right, so so the attorneys that are out there, that just they're not writing, they're not posting they're not doing things and, you know, that are adding to the to the online content, then you know, where they maybe have a few pages of content on themselves versus, you know, nothing.
Daliah Saper 4:02
Right, right. Just good practice to have it. No, it is the practice of law with any other big firm and midsize firm or your you have your own practice. You want to do everything that gets yourself out there. And that proactively establishes your reputation so that any even ding on your reputation would be less impactful because of your pre existing reputation that you've developed and honed.
Steve Fretzin 4:23
Gotcha, gotcha. Well, that's, that's great, great ideas and tips. I think social media is a big, you know, kind of gray cloud for a lot of people, especially lawyers. So some people are all in and you can see them posting daily, and others are like, you know, they don't even have a photo on their LinkedIn, you know, age or anything. And so, you know, any other any other tips or ideas as far as social media things that lawyers can do to try to get their name out there in a positive way?
Daliah Saper 4:48
I think it's important to provide value so like you said, writing articles. But practically speaking, we also know how busy most lawyers are so writing and commentary on anything new is going to be difficult. on a regular basis, what I do is I share information that I find and curate. So if there's something in the news relating to my practice area, I use that as an opportunity of being first in mind. And I promote that throughout my different platforms, I use a platform called Hootsuite, that lets me post to multiple sites at the same time, because that in and of itself can get tedious trying to post to LinkedIn and your Facebook account and Twitter and you have to go two or three times. So there's ways to streamline that I can also publish content for the whole week, and you know, set it and forget it. So if I spent a couple hours in the beginning of the week populating with my social media feeds going to look like, then I can, again, use that opportunity to be first in mind without having to do a lot of work every day.
Steve Fretzin 5:44
Gotcha, gotcha. So let's change course, for a little bit here. One of the things I was hoping to get out of this out of this chat today is to just learn a little bit about you and sort of how you came to be and get to where you are today. And so was there a point or experience that happened in your life that directed you to, you know, either personally or in business to kind of get where you are today?
Daliah Saper 6:07
Well, you know, when you start law school, especially someone who goes straight through, you're not really sure what to expect, I did, I always have kind of this bug, where I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but didn't have the necessary, you know, experience or necessary capital to create a brand new business. During law school, I partnered with a friend who had established a fashion production company and asked me to come on board and help her. And I did. And that was really my first taste of true entrepreneurship, we produced large scale fashion shows, and partnered with major brands to do so. And in that role, I was working on PR matters, you know, writing press releases, coordinating sponsors, and writing sponsorship agreements. And ultimately, that business dissolve, we had some disputes about the best way to govern certain, you know, aspects of the business. And when that ended, I felt kind of like, well, what what can I do that's entrepreneurial, and still utilizes my law degree? And the answer is pretty simple, I guess, to get to start a law firm. That kind of was the background, I did take a job just so I could have an idea of how litigation works and how the system works procedurally, and that was really the boot camp position I had coming out of law school for a year with a solo practitioner. And then because again, in part due to my age, I figured, let's try this law firm thing, I have really very little to lose. Even if I'm eating you know, pizza and ramen noodles for a year not making anything, at least I'm establishing and building something. And then right place right time choosing the right niche area of law ended up being a prudent decision, because as I mentioned, we're now 15 years in and I've had the opportunity to litigate some very interesting and novel issues of law. I've catered to clients for a wide variety of industries. And as our firm artigos been cool by association.
Steve Fretzin 8:02
Nice, nice. Yeah, I like that. I unfortunately, don't have a lot of coolness in in the work that I'm in. But But anyway, it's it's alright. I get to tell lawyers what to do all day. So that that's something right. Important. Yeah, I think so. So then, in being an entrepreneur and starting your own firm, obviously, there's an element of, I don't know if it's fear, or just or just just kind of gumption that it takes. But what was the thought about that, and growth and as it related to business development, maybe we can kind of lean into that a little.
Daliah Saper 8:35
I think you're gonna have to have that. Don't be afraid to ask personality to be an entrepreneur, especially when starting out in the legal field, you definitely need to rely on the resources and the network you've built. Because you can't be a law firm if you don't have clients, and you can't be a law firm if you can't do the work. And those were two very real things when I started my firm at the age of whatever I was 25. So I would say, you know, set out to first know what you're going to be doing. So have an idea of what kind of a law firm you're going to be. I would advise generally against being an all general practice attorney, I think there's, it's wise to at least be known for something. There's so many lawyers out there, and you want to be able to distinguish yourself. And unless you're kind of joining a general practice firm, I'd say, you know, pick a general area, pick a pick an area of law that you think people will think of you and you know, and promote that. And then be sure to rely on a good network of mentors who you can ask questions and bounce questions off of. One of the things people are afraid of when they start a firm is that they won't have a friend sitting next door or lawyers office they can walk into. So create your own little office and be able to ping a friend if you don't know how to handle a situation or have a question of law.
Steve Fretzin 9:51
Gotcha. Gotcha. And so were there times where you felt you were maybe getting better at business development and there were there moments where you have Aha moments like, Oh, this is, you know, what I need to do to get you know, the new clients in or this is something an angle, a marketing angle or business development angle that that helps you to grow and build a sustainable book.
Daliah Saper 10:12
I think what I like in the act of networking for law firms that game of Minesweeper, I don't know if you, you know, that game back we used to Yeah, sure. So it's really, it's fun to see how going to one thing can lead to something else can lead to something else. So I would always be open to Yes, meaning like, I would go to everything and anything that was remotely relevant to the areas of wall or the kind of clients I wanted to attract. And over time, it was very much a game of Minesweeper, I'd go to one thing and open the door to something else. And if you have that kind of personality, for me, that was that was fun. I, you know, I find it exciting to go to things. If you're not an extrovert, then you need to come up with other ways to gain that kind of same, same momentum. But it's really a matter of just do whatever you can to be as visible as possible. And then you will see how things naturally build upon each other. So one client likes your work, you get another client. And I would say that over the last 15 years, with very little or no advertising, I've spent almost $0 advertising, I've been able to grow book because organically people have heard about me or been referred to from existing clients, or met me at an event where I was speaking are actively going to shake hands and kiss babies.
Steve Fretzin 11:34
Gotcha, gotcha. And so I know that, you know, there's entrepreneurs and there's, there's, you know, people that are looking to go out on their own. And one of the biggest sort of challenges that I either deal with myself, or that I hear about on the street, as you know, women that are feeling great pressure, that whether they go out on their own, or they just want to develop a book of business, it's the pressure of the family, and the balance, and how to, you know, do all of that. And so without just like forgetting their family and forgetting their free time and just working, you know, in developing business, how have you been able to balance all that? And are there tips that you can give specifically to women?
Daliah Saper 12:14
Yeah, well, there, I have two children, and my newest one is three months old. So..
Steve Fretzin 12:18
Oh, my God, congratulations.
Daliah Saper 12:20
Thank you. Thank you. So absolutely. I would say though, that having your own firm is the most mom friendly kind of job, you can you can have, you get to dictate the hours you dictate when and how clients can reach you. Whereas when you're at a firm, a lot of that flexibility is not there. Also, of course, I understand the challenges of not being able to go to every event. And I also understand recognize that when I started my firm, I didn't have any children. So now being the mom of two, it's changed how I network to your point. And the beauty of the difference between when I started my from 15 years ago, and now is that we have social media, we have all of these online ways of engaging and networking and being seen, which are in some ways, far more productive uses of time than kind of hoping you meet the right person at an event with 50 people and trying to shake hands and work a room. So as a mom, I'd say one, you have a lot more networking opportunities that are virtual. And also you get to set the times and places where you can make those connections.
Steve Fretzin 13:21
Gotcha. And as you know, you know, doing what I do, I spend a lot of time really trying to teach efficiencies, because some people have less flexibility if they are already getting, you know, 50 hours a week of billable work that they're you know, it's getting pushed to them, how do they then carve out, you know, some time for business development to you know, grow that book. So eventually they have their own clients and can start dictating things more like an entrepreneur. But that's really the challenge, right? It's, it's, it's sort of the chicken or the egg to that stage.
Daliah Saper 13:52
And I think it's important to set boundaries. And actually, if you aren't a firm state, I need X amount of time for business development and you'd be surprised how much business development I can do going to my kids soccer match or taking my daughter to ice skating or whatever it might be because clients tend to hire you because they know you and they know you and settings that are not necessarily business settings for professional settings.
Steve Fretzin 14:14
Right, got it. So yeah, I think I think that you either you either make the time or you somehow created around you know what you have or or again, but just trying to find efficiencies i think is a big part of it. And time management thinks skills that are learned. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. In this this may seem like an I don't know if it's an odd question, but it's, it's something I'm always curious about is Were there any times growing your firm where you felt, you know, either vulnerable or you sound a second guessed yourself, like what I get myself into? Are there any, any moments like that?
Daliah Saper 14:46
I mean, candidly, no. Okay. Now, of course, there's always times where you second guessed yourself, but I would say that's more about did I did I take on a case that's too big for me, or can I handle you know, this type of math Or this kind of clients, I think I started my firm I didn't know better. So to me, there's no like grass is greener than that it would be nice to have the support of an infrastructure possibly. But that's where mentors come in. And that's where having that kind of sounding board of friends who can guide you is helpful. A lot of having your own firms having confidence act as if, and if you have the, again, the right resources, you really can handle almost anything.
Steve Fretzin 15:30
Right? Right. So it's a kind of add on to that if you're, if you're a coach for lawyers, and you're gonna give them some advice on you know, how to grow a business or grow their own law, practice, obviously, confidence top of the list, and what are two or three other things that you would say, are at the top of the list, as far as you know, building books.
Daliah Saper 15:51
Absolutely having an efficient practice. So you know, if you give me a case, that's not something I want to, I'm not going to repeat. So I don't do personal injury, right. But let's say really good personal injury case, Cam. And I would say you know, what, it's even if it's the upside is huge, it's just not what I do. And I wouldn't be a good use of my firm's resources to try to build up that expertise. For this one case, if it's not something I'm going to do all the time. So build a book of business around things you can systemize and things you can do regularly. And you know, we're service based business, we're not selling a commodity. And the more you can commoditize, at least in your own practice, what you do, I think the more niche your business becomes, and the more efficient your business becomes, and therefore you can build that book of business more quickly. Oh, Dalia did a case involving this weird, you know, Facebook issue? Let's send her everything we hear about that's related to Facebook, great. Business will come more quickly when people know you to do something.
Steve Fretzin 16:46
Well, that's, again, specific. So it sounds like specialization is really one of the top, you know, most important things, not just saying I'm an IP attorney, right, but because that is a specialization, but then taking that into, you know, niches within that within that segment.
Daliah Saper 17:03
Right. And I remember we're not supposed to say specialized. And so I was hesitant to use that word.
Steve Fretzin 17:08
But yes, focus on right. Well, I can say, and I'm not an attorney, so right. Okay, get away with it. But again, that's really the key. And again, my father, you know, retired 20 years ago from the law, but he was a generalist and a master of all, and that just doesn't, you know, fly today's I think there's a few people that can pull that off.
Daliah Saper 17:28
You might be able to if you're in a firm, and that a firm, you know, as a general practice firm that you can bring in the business and delegate to other partners, or Sure, I think most of your clients are solos or people who are trying to build their, their little corner of the firm.
Steve Fretzin 17:41
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, we talk about specialization a lot. And we talk about, you know, the focus, because if they have the focus, then they can they can, they can go out and promote it and get, you know, get what they're looking for. But if they're too vague, right, it just kind of gets lost in all the, you know, the 60,000 lawyers in Illinois, or the, you know, million plus lawyers around the country. Yeah. So, this is a segment I'd like to talk about, it's called, they never taught me this in law school. What's the one thing that that you didn't learn in law school that you wish they had taught you in law school.
Daliah Saper 18:14
A lot of law school is, you know, case studies and navigating maybe the litigation process, and not a lot about clients management, managing the client process and also practicing in areas around the practice of law. So something as simple as, how do you onboard a client? How do you get rid of a client's when should you fire a client? Are there transactional aspects to the business that you need to learn? It's not just you know, filing a brief, a lot of that you do learn on the job when you graduate? So I don't fault law school for that. But I think it's a good idea.
Steve Fretzin 18:53
Just have more focus in schools today on things like advertising clients into clients, firing whatever the outtake would be those types of things. Right. So more and more practice management and practical elements of being a lawyer or running a law firm as a part of the the graduation process. I think so. Okay. Got it. Is there one thing that you would say to young lawyers that, you know, whether they're three to five years out, they've been practicing, they're building up their skills, as it relates to to the importance of growing a book of business?
Daliah Saper 19:28
I would say that ABN that's the motto at our firm, always be networking. And the more you just do it as part of your daily activities, the less of a chore it becomes. It's just something you just do. So always check into your LinkedIn profile and post a comment or engage. If there's an opportunity for you to go to an event, figure out how you can attend. And then if you just incorporate it as as part of your weekly exercises. I think the book of business naturally follows.
Steve Fretzin 19:55
Well as a self promotional thing, I'll just mention that I've got a book called The attorneys networking handbook available on Amazon. So if you're if you're out there saying, you know, that's great Dalyell always be networking, but I don't know how to do that. That's not something I've ever had to do. Whether it's a resource like you or me, or books, like I've written and other people have written, you know, go on and read, you know, you got to treat the business of law is important today is the law. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's really got to come to the forefront. That's called the attorneys networking handbook. Easy enough there. Yeah. Right there. So if you just go to Amazon and type in my name, anyway, that's, that's, um, you know, that's really important is I think that it's, it's the idea of what you have to do, and then to actually get the skills to build the skills to do it. And, you know, I think it sounds like you know, through your mentors, and just through your gumption, you've been able to sort of figure it all out as you went in on your own. However, it sounds like you're suggesting, you know, people should find mentors, they should find coaches, they should find people within their firm that have been there and done that and use that as a key point. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Got it. So is there anything else that you want to share about your firm or they're waiting for people to get in touch with you if they're interested in working with you or referring you?
Daliah Saper 21:12
Sure. So you can learn more about my firm at cepr law comm sa p e, r la W. Another thing I do to add value and to have clients and prospective referral sources know more about me is, I believe in the power of video, and in the power of, you know, value add content. So if you have questions about certain social media issues, IP issues, business contracts, if you go to safer law, you'll see a plethora of different articles on a variety of topics related to those subject areas.
Steve Fretzin 21:43
Also, if you're interested in seeing some some video interview of me and Dolly from a few years ago, you can go to my YouTube channel at Steve frets and on YouTube. And check that out. I think we got into more substantive content in those interviews, but good stuff all around. I want to thank you Dolly for being my guest today. Just wonderful to hear your story and your success. Hope you know that continues on as I know it well. And so thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. My pleasure. And now Hey everyone, I just want to thank you for listening as long as we're being as a love fest. Hope you enjoyed today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Everybody take care. Thank you.
Narrator 22:31
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.