In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Corinne Heggie discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"If you have your own clients, you have a little bit more flexibility with how your day is gonna look." — Corinne Heggie
Connect with Corinne Heggie:
Website: wochnerlawfirm.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/corinne-cantwell-heggie-04b27b16a
Facebook: facebook.com/corinne.heggie.7
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Corinne Heggie 0:00
Being an active in bar associations was really helpful to give me a platform to talk about what I do, why I do it and why I love it. It was a platform for me to identify and work with and build a bunch of strategic partners. It was also something when I was at a larger law firm on the partnership track to have something to talk about where I'm working with people.
Narrator 0:27
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:49
Hey everybody Steve Fretzin in here with be that lawyer. I hope everyone's having a great day and that you're doing well and staying safe and getting business done. And as you know, the show is all about helping lawyers to be that lawyer someone that's confident organized a skilled Rainmaker, and all of that comes down to Allen's it comes down to how are you making it rain? How are you getting your work done? And most importantly, how are you getting free time with your family and other things that you enjoy? So to help with that a bit today? I've got a great guest, someone I've known for a number of years. It's Corinne Campwell Heggie, who's with wachner law firm, so I want to introduce her. How you doing?
Corinne Heggie 1:28
I'm great, Steve, thanks so much for having me. I'm pleased to be with you this afternoon.
Steve Fretzin 1:32
Sure. I'm glad that you're here. And I knew I was gonna screw up the name even if I practiced it ahead of time. So that's just a given. But if you wouldn't mind just a little background on yourself for my audience. Sure.
Corinne Heggie 1:42
So my name is Corinne Campbell Heggie. I practice at the walker law firm. We're located up in Northbrook, for those of you we're obviously just 17 miles north of the city. I have been practicing almost for two decades, I started first at a large national law firm as an associate. And then as a partner, took myself and my clients to a boutique firm. And now I own a firm. And I'm the principal of a small firm, three lawyers and two support staff where we focus on safeguarding individuals, families and businesses, from court battles, asset loss and taxes with estate plan.
Steve Fretzin 2:21
Got it? Got it. And you know, one of the things I wanted to kind of get into was around women in law in particular, and what are some of the challenges that women have in not only building a successful practice, but also the balance and all the different elements? You know, because there's no one can argue that it's a very challenging juggling or balancing act. So what are some of the things that you're that you either went through or that you're seeing on a regular basis with other women?
Corinne Heggie 2:47
Yeah, well, that's a great question question that many people ask. And many women are thinking in their head. So I'm glad you asked, Steve, I want you to take the balance piece first. Just because that's, that always is a topic that's, that weighs heavily on firms, legal departments, government, mindsets, and obviously women who are practicing and law. So balancing it has to happen, women aren't doing it, men are doing it too. But women, I think what I've seen, they may get frustrated, rightly so. And they may get impatient and and may not have a voice to ask for what they want, wherever they're working. And so that may cause them to step back or completely step away. And I think you have to do whatever works for you. But give yourself grace, first of all, and ask for what you want. Now getting a voice takes some time, but you can do it. You can practice and you can do it and my feeling on these things. Because it's happened to me. The worst they can say is no, no is just know right now. That no forever.
Steve Fretzin 3:53
Yeah. And what are some things that women can do to get that voice to be heard? Are there a couple different ideas or things that you either did or that you would suggest they do to try to expedite that? Because it sounds like that might be a challenging effort to make, especially if you're either new in law, or you're at a firm where the culture maybe isn't quite there yet?
Corinne Heggie 4:12
Absolutely. I would say you have to start early. And it's, it's if you're going to advocate for yourself, for women, and I speak this is my personal feeling. And I had to come along on this journey myself. If you start making asks that are not related to you, then when you have to make asks that are are related to you. You have a voice and you have some confidence about it. So what does that mean? I think it starts no matter where you are on the totem pole at your company or your firm or your government or public interest organization. Ask for the job you want. Ask for the assignment, asked to go to the meeting, asked to write the article for the newsletter asked to sit in the meeting where you're pitching a client We're trying to get deeper relations with the client, because those asks are about you, but they're really driven to client service and helping your organization with its efforts to get business, then, when you have to make the ask about, I'd like to do some work in this practice group. I'd like to share billing credit with you. I'd like to talk to you about my compensation structure, because I don't agree with it. You, you have practice, you have confidence. And you can do it.
Steve Fretzin 5:31
Yeah, that's really great. I love that the key is to advocate for yourself. And I like the idea of starting small and doing it for the good of the firm as a starting point. And then you can start advocating internally for yourself as a way to sort of move the needle. Is there a difference between that advocacy in small firms and a small firm setting versus a big firm setting that you've experienced?
Corinne Heggie 5:53
Sure, yeah, I can speak to that, Steve. So I think the difference between a big firm and a small firm is the communication channels, right, the chain of command, who to whom do you receives your request to whom is that directed, I can speak from an art national law firm standpoint, it may be you have to start with the partner in charge, it might be the partner in charge and the practice group leader, if he or she or they, if it's a co position, sit in your office, if they don't sit in your office, is it the Is it the you know, office, the partner in charge, and then the practice group leader wherever that individual or individuals sit, whereas in a smaller firm, there might not be as much infrastructure. And so that ask or that point of entry, may be really low, it might be walking out the door at the end of the day, or dropping something in the mailbox or finalizing something with the client. And you can just say, a casually Hey, I'd like this opportunity.
Steve Fretzin 6:54
But it sounds like no matter what the culture or the size of the firm, that, you know, everyone, men and women, you know, all have to advocate for themselves, they have to start making the moves to get what they wanted to put themselves in a position where they can advance their careers or advance their ability to have that balance.
Corinne Heggie 7:13
Right? I think you have to listen, when you start wherever you work, be at a legal department, a firm, big smile, you've got to learn your craft, right. But you have to also get that muscle of advocacy, pumping and moving. So you're comfortable flexing that muscle when you need to. And ultimately, no one cares as much about your growth and your development and your trajectory. As you do, you have to have that mindset. Now, listen, that doesn't mean mentors aren't great. And you know, people who are going to be your champions aren't great. They are. But you are, no one is going to be more invested in your career than you are.
Steve Fretzin 7:57
Right, that goes across the board, I guess, something I'd like you to touch on. And again, this is nothing that I would touch on my own for a number of reasons. But challenges that women have in building a practice and building up their I don't know, their business development, or could just be their name recognition or just being being a leader at a firm versus a man. What are some of the challenges that you've seen that you've had yourself or that you've seen other women have that they may have to overcome that men maybe don't have quite the same level of challenge?
Corinne Heggie 8:26
Yeah, sure, I'd be happy to answer that question. I think women have to have a mindset that they can get business, you can get business and you can be that person and either quiet the noise that's in their in their heart and in their mind about that. And tune any noise that gives them that message from colleagues or from the firm in which they're, where they're practicing, or the company where they're practicing, or the agency where they're practicing. Listen, we all have doubt we're humans, right? But you've got to you've got to be able to turn it off or dial it down. When you hear that noise because you can women can do it. And you also have to I think women and I felt the same way. You don't have to get all the business in one year, the crumbs will make the cake if you start building your cake will get bigger and bigger. And I think also women might have a little bit of a hurdle not being in the room, not where the decisions are made, but where just business is done. You're walking out of a deck with a colleague and maybe you don't automatically talk to this as a great deck. We should see if there's other matters we can help them with. It might be more ministerial. I'll get the DEP exhibits. Or you know, I'll contact the court reporter Mollison say that too. But if you feel like that was a great depth and there's opportunity. I'm not saying you have to go call the client right now and ask for all the business but say it. If you think that if you have business development ideas and you have thoughts, share them with the people who are above you. Because then they know that you have this mindset, you have this desire, and maybe you will get invited to be part of those conversations or won't feel as much as a barrier to entry. If you're swimming outside those conversations and you want to get, you want to be part of the action.
Steve Fretzin 10:20
You know, keep going with the crumbs to cake. And I love that, by the way that visual of that business development is how important is that in a woman having that balance and having that control and getting the voice heard at the table?
Corinne Heggie 10:32
I think you have to make time to do it. So is it another thing that's on your things that you have to do in a day, or in a week? Absolutely. But you don't have to do eight hours of it. And then eight hours of your billable work, it's all about making sure you carve out the time to do it in manageable amounts that work for where you are, and if where you are is that I can't participate and coffees in the morning because I wait to for the support we have for the children in the home to get there before I come to work. Or you do the drop off for daycare, fine, do it with what works with you. And it doesn't have to be face to face. And it doesn't have to be zoom. You know, it can be an email, I read this article and I thought about you. I'm going to be in town this day, are you available for coffee, or with technology, there's so many ways that you can touch people that you like to do business with or want to do business with.
Steve Fretzin 11:34
Right. And so I work with men and women helping them on their business development. That's my career. And, you know, it really just comes down to, you know, most cases, someone saying to me, this is something I need to change, I can't I'm looking to get ahead. I know that having my own book of business is one of the most important things to having control whether I'm staying at from matter I'm leaving, or I'm going solo, it doesn't really matter. So they're just they're anxious to get to it. And so then it comes down to how do I get it done? How do I get it done efficiently. And that's part of where I come in. However, for all the people that don't work with me, they're looking to figure this out on their own, which is fine. So what suggestions are, what are some things you did, so that it wasn't eight hours a day, it was a little bit at a time, but it added up?
Corinne Heggie 12:19
Yeah, I'd be happy to share that with the people who are joining us and listening. I tried when I was in the thick of having children and I had three children at a large law firm. With a national practice in litigation, a lot of it was in litigation, what I started with doing is trying to do two things every day, whether that was an email, whether it was sending an article to someone either handwritten with a handwritten note or by link, depending on you know, the person and his or her preferences, phone call, reaching out, it wouldn't have to be you know, asking for a coffee or asking for a lunch or asking for a dinner or breakfast. Something like that wouldn't have to be having to actually get the agreement and getting the date but starting the ball rolling, taking action on two things every day.
Steve Fretzin 13:07
Yeah. So that way, you're not putting it off and putting it off and waiting another month and then waiting another year. I mean, that the goof that I use on my clients is did you have the week or the week Have you? And it's almost always, you know, right, the week's gonna have you if you don't take control of your time and take control of your week and make sure that you get it in, are there some additional things that you recommend to get it in the calendar or make sure that it happens without fail?
Corinne Heggie 13:31
You know, I calendered it. And if I was sending emails, I mean, I'm sure many people work a lot of crazy hours. And so I much better in the morning, and would try and be up before anyone in my house was up. So if I was doing emails, I would try and have a draft of that email in the draft box. So when I had a second, as you tried to do it around two o'clock, if I was going to be sending emails, it was ready, I could reflect on what I wrote. If I needed to change it. It was all about calendaring. Steve. Yeah. And then you have to give yourself grace too, because I wasn't perfect every day. And if I if I missed it, it would have to be retiring it to try and follow up. And if I didn't do two things, for instance, on a Monday, give a third thing on a Tuesday and give added there was a third item to do on Wednesday.
Steve Fretzin 14:19
Yeah, so it's just it all adds up. It doesn't have to be a flowing waterfall of activity every single day. It's a couple of things a day or even a couple things a week for some people that's going to move the needle to get those meetings to get those introductions to get into a meet a new GC that you never would have met otherwise, but it's proactive. It's not reactive, you have to make a concerted effort and then stay with it.
Corinne Heggie 14:41
Right. Right. That's kind of how I found it. And I'm not saying that to you know, two things every day, you know, Monday through Friday, it's the right fit. They'll figure out what it works and maybe it's three things a week, right? You just it's I just want everyone and women especially to understand that there is no barrier to entry. Can you enter where you are, where you feel comfortable and where you feel feel authentic, because that's where you're going to be able to do your best work and connect with people because it's really about client's old new perspective, knowing you liking you and trusting you.
Steve Fretzin 15:20
Right, I don't want to throw a curveball, ask yourself if this is a question you're not comfortable answering, you don't have to. But I think it's I hear this on a regular basis from the women I work with. And we work on it together. But I'm curious to hear your spin or if this has happened to you, but some women feel with all these relationships that they have with general counsel's and friends and other people that they're in, quote, unquote, the friendzone. And how do we turn the friendzone into business? Because men can just say, you know, Hey, friend, you know, throw me this work, by the way, men are terrified of it, too. I mean, it's there's that everybody's afraid, everybody's afraid to make the ask. So I totally get it. But But I think women in particular, feel a little even a little more nervous about making an ask, because they're in that friendzone, do you have? Have you found that at all to be the case? And if so, have you gotten through that?
Corinne Heggie 16:10
Yeah, you know, I, I have had that situation myself with friends of mine who are because you know, I've been practicing for a while now. I mean, people are managing partners, partners in charge, heads of legal departments, head of governmental agencies are getting real close. So I've had that kind of trepidation or just pause, I would call it before I make the ask, but I've done it, I don't want to invalidate that feeling, because it's a true one. And I think men probably have it too. But you got to start somewhere. And you've got to make the ask because no one will ask for you. And it also, there could be a silver lining there. So what might the silver lining be? Well, this individual with whom you have a friendly relationship, and you've got really deep roots with, they may never have thought you were business development minded, or you you were thinking this way. And so now you've kind of said, Absolutely signal to them that this is something you're interested in. And maybe it's not a fit now, maybe it's never going to be a fit. But if you've made the ask and someone knows you and likes you and trust you, they'll give your name to a colleague, perhaps within that same organization, or they'll talk to someone else who's at a different company, a different agency, a different firm, and mention you, you just don't know the reach that it has.
Steve Fretzin 17:37
Right? So it's just it's drumming up the courage to bring it up suggested something that I've also recommended to many of my clients is just asking some really good questions about their career about their job, and most importantly, about the kinds of challenges they're facing, dealing with legal dealing with other lawyers. And maybe they'll go off on a tangent and complain about rates are complain about fails in quality or failures in quality or lack of responsiveness. And that might be the door that needs to be open for you to step in and say, Well, I know we're friends. And you may not have considered this, but I have 20 years of doing exactly what these lawyers are failing at doing. And maybe I'd be a better fit. So it's a little less of a direct ask, you know, kind of getting in through the side door through some questions that might open things up. So I don't know if that's helpful to people listening, but that's another, you know, one of maybe 10 approaches that might work. But they're a little less direct than the straightforward ask.
Corinne Heggie 18:33
Oh, absolutely. And I think as soon as you know that you're making these assets for yourself, right, and in your career and your trajectory, and your and so you can win the marathon, however you define that marathon, but if you take yourself out of it and make it about the other person about the potential client, or the potential contact, or the potential strategic partner, it becomes it becomes a lot easier I found.
Steve Fretzin 18:57
Yeah. And I guess one thing I really wanted to get out of this interview and from you today specifically, was to get back into the balance, you've got the billable hour, you've got the business development, growing your own book, and you've got the family, and you've got all the things that you want to see happen with the kids and all that. So how does one person spin those plates, juggle those balls and live the kind of life that they want that everyone wants to live that well balanced life? But, you know, women have that extra challenge of maybe having more responsibility than the man for in the family or some other ways. So how do you put that into perspective? And how did you do it?
Corinne Heggie 19:34
Yeah, I'd love to answer that question. So I think the big challenge for a woman is just biologically you're having children. Biologically, that's you. Yeah, that's you. Now there's also hurdles to you know, if you're going to be welcoming and adopt a child into your family, so I don't want to put any one of those options in front of the other. They both come with their with challenges for women. And then and for men too, I think you want if you'd like to have more control of your career, and you're trying to now I'm speaking to those who are in law firms who are in private practice service, you're going to have to get your own clients. Because if you have your own clients, you have a little bit more flexibility with how your day is gonna walk. I believe that was my experience. When I had more clients, I had more flexibility, as able to get and determine who within the firms that I worked at, I wanted to work with who would help me. But I think Above all, no, you're not alone. And you've got to give yourself grace in what you're doing. But to not really cut out business development. And if you're home on maternity leave, and your day is just a series of 30 minute intervals until you have a night nurse or your sitter comes or your husband's home, or your partner's home. Fine. try and do one thing, just do something. Because like I said before, the crumbs are going to make the cake and they'll help you once you're out of, you know, I don't want to say a rough patch. But when you're out of out of the thicket, I mean, because it can be hard to do it. And I don't want to discount that. But you can do it. You just have to be disciplined with your time.
Steve Fretzin 21:16
Yeah, and obviously, this show is all about, you know, business development, marketing, growth, etc. And so I think it's so important to understand that when you have your own clients, and you're not being handed work, you're not it's not being dictated by your partners and the people at the top of the totem pole, you're running your own show. And when that happens, right, then things change. So talk to that for a moment.
Corinne Heggie 21:40
Yeah, it's a game changer. When you are running the show. I mean, you're the person the clients are looking for, you can determine if the clients can call your cell phone, or if they can text you, it truly is where the rubber hits the road. And you can build your team and say, you know, when you're at a larger firm, you might if it's a client that you might not necessarily have the bandwidth to work on, you have a really deep bench, right? That's one of the great advantages of being at a large law firm. But then you're the partner on the file. And so you've got some say in that it's just a complete game changer. And if you're in a large law firm, people look at you differently.
Steve Fretzin 22:15
Yeah. So again, when we talk about balance, I think there's maybe a hump or there's some plateau that needs to be reached and then gone, you go over it. So you've got, you know, the billable hour, you've got the family balance, that seems like tough enough. Now we're throwing business development on top of that. But if you can do it for X number of years, and get over the hump, where you now have your own clients, you have your own book a business, and you're working your own clients, and you're even delegating some stuff down. Now, are we closer to the Promised Land of balance?
Corinne Heggie 22:48
I think so. And this is if you get if, you know, if business development and having your own clients is where you want to be because there's a lot of folks who don't and that's fine, you know, that's fine. I don't you are, who you are. And it takes all different kinds of lawyers to do the work at all different kinds of professional settings, you know, legal departments, firms, government agencies. So I think it is I think it is if you stay in it and stay dedicated to it and do things for networking that you like to do. I mean, I found great comfort when I kind of leaned into the women's Bar Association after I had my third child, because I do remember being and it's not because of anything where I was working, I just remember being in the hallways and thinking everyone's got a smile on their face. Everyone's just going about their business. And I'm just not sure like I can get on the train tonight. And I'm gonna get what I need to get done for the next day. Now listen, I did and it was fine. And I don't think everyone was walking around with a smile on their face. But I was able to get lean back in and get activated and more involved with the women's Bar Association. And I felt like there were more people like that's where my people were.
Steve Fretzin 23:56
Yeah, I mean, you found an avenue of where you wanted to spend your time to grow your book and to build relationships and to meet good people that made sense for you. So was that a big part of your development of business and your development of relationships, to develop the referrals and the things that helps you grow your book.
Corinne Heggie 24:13
Being an active in bar associations was really helpful to give me a platform to talk about what I do, why I do it, and why I love it. It was a platform for me to identify and work with and build a bunch of strategic partners. It was also something when I was it a larger law firm on the partnership track to have something to talk about where I'm working with people, teams, maybe not managing right because this was a volunteer group. So I no one's managing anyone but working on a team working within a budget to get things done. So it really helped kind of give me a platform helped me build strategic partners, not only for myself, but to get business and to demonstrate leadership skills that firms look at right if when they're trying to promote people.
Steve Fretzin 24:58
Yeah, so for from a standpoint of if somebody wanted to get more involved in the women's bar association or learn more about you, any website you want to give out, or how do people get in touch with you?
Corinne Heggie 25:10
Sure. Well, if people want to get in touch with me, they can find me at our law firms website, which is www.Walker. And that's wochnerLawFirm.com I'm on LinkedIn at Corinne Heggie, also on Facebook at Corinne Heggie. And if you want to learn more about the women's Bar Association, you can certainly learn about how I was involved with the women's Bar Association on my platforms. But don't hesitate to get onto the women's Bar Association of Illinois website. It's a great resource. And of course, I'll extend anyone who's listening. If you have questions, or about the organization, all my contact information can be found on my website, and I can gladly gladly answer any questions.
Steve Fretzin 25:53
Well, you've been a terrific guests in an inspiration to, you know, to me to women to you know, lawyers that are looking to get that balance. And I really just appreciate you being on the show and sharing your insights.
Corinne Heggie 26:04
Well, thank you for having me, Steve, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about these important things for women and for men to consider.
Steve Fretzin 26:10
Yeah, terrific. And Hey everybody, thank you for spending some time with Corinne and I today and hopefully you're taking some notes and getting a couple of good ideas scroll down I know I've got a bunch of them. Also just want to mention that if you like the show, subscribe if you're not a subscriber and like it if you like it i'd like you know, obviously the more people that we can get to listen, the better so if it's something that you're appreciating and enjoying then please You know, share the love a little bit. And again, hopefully you're one step closer to being that lawyer someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody and be safe be well.
Narrator 26:49
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.