In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Conrad Saam discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"We don't tell them about costs; we don't talk to our clients about budgets or dollars. Everything is framed in terms of an investment, because that's what marketing is. If it's not an investment, it is lighting your kid’s college fund on fire." — Conrad Saam
Bedlam Conference: bedlamconference.com
Get 50% off your ticket to the Bedlam Conference starting May 26, 2021 by using Promotional Code: STEVE!
Connect with Conrad Saam:
Website: mockingbird.marketing
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/conradsaam & linkedin.com/company/mockingbird-marketing
Twitter: twitter.com/MockingbirdMktg
Facebook: facebook.com/conradsaam & facebook.com/Mockingbird.Marketing
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Conrad Samm 0:00
Most agencies will qualify a prospect by asking what their budget is it does two things. One, it tells the client that they're being qualified and two, it tells them that the agency especially when your lawyer, because agencies look at lawyers with dollar signs that their primary interest in you is the revenue that is exactly what that question communicates. What's your budget, right?
Narrator 0:25
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:47
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, as you heard the announcer say and I think at this point, if you've listened the show a few times, you figured out that I'm the guy who's kind of running the show. But that all being said, as you know, Fretzin is all about helping lawyers, it doesn't matter if you're a client, or if you're just a lawyer, looking for advice. We're thrilled to help. We're thrilled to be a part of the legal industry's culture and in helping people grow their law practices. And so honestly, just trying to get as much as I can in front of you, tips, tricks, ideas, things that are gonna make you a stronger player in growing your practice building out that financial freedom, independence, anything you need to kind of not have to worry about the world and what's going on around you to the degree that you can sort of do that. today. I've got one of the most amazing guests you may hear on the show. And he's looking at me like I'm nuts, but I'm not. I'm not.
Conrad Samm 1:35
You said it. You set a pretty high bar there, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 1:37
I said it now you got to live up to it. So that's on you. So it's Conrad, som he's the president of Mockingbird marketing. Now, if I say that fast, it's all over. But there we go. So really great to have you on the show. And thanks for being here. And you know, if you wouldn't mind, just give a little background because it's pretty deep and legal. You know, I was pretty impressed to see we're kind of where you started.
Conrad Samm 1:57
Yeah, so I got into this unintentionally. I'm not a lawyer. I never intended to go into law. And I went into this legal industry back in 2006. For what at the time was a six person startup called although.
Steve Fretzin 2:12
I've never heard of that. Is it Avvo.
Conrad Samm 2:15
Although a although a acronym eyes it AVVO. I actually bought the domain Awo. Back. It was it was held by some someone from Anderson consulting worldwide or something like that. So there's little little things that we have to do. But, you know, back in 2006, mifir, we were talking about the Yellow Pages earlier, Steve, my very first presentation ever gave to lawyers was called the depth of the Yellow Pages. And it was trying to explain to lawyers how people are using the internet to find lawyers. And, and when I gave it, the pushback was unbelievable. And this is six like this is not that long ago. And so it's been an interesting ride back and back again, when I started, the number of people who were great at SEO for lawyers was one, there was one guy who was awesome. And that was Tim Stanley, it just Yeah, he's super, super smart guy. And now like every man and his dog isn't, you know, SEO expert, especially in the legal field. But ABA was basically able to surpass these, you know, centuries old directories, because we were great at search. And we were so much better at search than the established players. Now that's obviously changed, although it's kind of it's sold to internet brands. And it's it's basically at this point in time disappeared, as far as I'm, they don't like me saying this, but like it's, it's disappeared. So let's call that out for what it is. So I did that. And then you know, when I was at avo, I really liked working with lawyers, we did a lot of before there was something called key influencer marketing and stuff like that we were doing that and teaching lawyers and sharing information about how the internet works. And it was a really good thing for the business. And I found that's what I really liked. And so I rolled out of avo and started this agency where I work directly with lawyers. My intention was to be a SEO agency. And as as the SERPs have evolved, we added advertising and we've added CRM expertise. And so we're now much more full service. But going back to that I'm an old SEO guy.
Steve Fretzin 4:13
Yeah. And you're also a Michigan guy. And here's my Michigan question. Why are Michigan people so nuts?
Conrad Samm 4:18
They're not. And the weird thing about Michigan people with legal marketing, Tim Stanley, who I mentioned just now Yeah, Michigan connection. Mark Britton, CEO of avo, Michigan connection, Julie Clarkson, Michigan connects and Keith saclac is from attorney sync. He and I were at school at Michigan together. We didn't know it, but the likelihood that he didn't serve me a beer at scorekeepers and Ann Arbor is close to zero.
Steve Fretzin 4:41
Yeah, I mean, I know Wisconsin, people I know Illinois, people and other you know, university crazies, but nothing seems to break the bond of the nuts at
Conrad Samm 4:50
Michigan. We're delusional at this point. I will tell you one of my best parts of last year was the fact that we did not lose to Ohio.
Steve Fretzin 4:57
That's important. In fact, I'll tell you some funny story. I took my My son to have a University Wisconsin game because that's where my wife went. And we had great seats like everything was lining up, this was gonna be a beautiful day like every and eight diehard hammered, Iowa fans with big corn knobs on their head, sat down behind us and they went nuts, the whole game. And it ruined everything for me, for my son, in particular, my wife, and the idea that I was going to turn around and say something to him wasn't going to happen. Anyway, so I was maybe second in Michigan and crazy. But so that's my last college football game that I went to. So listen, I was talking to you earlier about, we could talk about SEO, we could talk about pay per click, we talk about advertising websites, we do all that. And I would really rather have this conversation be about client service and customer support and customer service. And the reason that I think that's such a great topic is because I know that's absolutely critical to you and your business and how you run things. And so even to the degree where I read your website that had the 10 commandments. And so I thought it would be really great for you to share what you're doing for your law firm clients as maybe something for them to consider, hey, maybe this is how we want to run our law firm. Or maybe we need to change our thinking about how we're managing clients or interacting communicating with clients because camera might be onto something. Is that cool?
Conrad Samm 6:15
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I did a podcast the other day, and we were talking about how empathy is a competitive advantage for lawyers. Wow, a lot of the time lawyers struggle to either have, or communicate their sense of empathy. Yeah. And so the 10 commandments that we have here, none of them have anything to do with the business success, the immediate business success of the agency, they all have to do with the short term focus on our clients. And my bias here is if you throw out the short term focus on financials, and you focus on what is important to the client right now, you end up in the long run, having better clients having better client relationships, and having frankly, a stronger business that has worked very well for me so far.
Steve Fretzin 7:06
Yeah. And I mean, part of what I have to teach lawyers in business development is, are things like questioning, listening, empathy, even just you know, levels of understanding in how they question a prospective client about their needs for legal services. And it is a learned skill. Now, are there people that are more empathetic naturally than others that serve or how they're built? Absolutely. So for them, and for others, you know, this empathy is a learned skill. And it can be something that's honed not as a fake or facade, but as a way to connect and communicate with people and help them
Conrad Samm 7:40
right. And the irony, of course, is like, attorneys are taught to draw information out of people through questioning, right, which is the ultimate step towards empathy. Like you're asking people what's important to you. And and I think the key here, and yet lawyers struggle so much, I see this all the time, lawyers really struggle to have that personal connection. By the way, this study show this people, when people are hiring attorneys yesterday, we want to know that you have a law degree that you're competent attorney, but they are hiring the person, they're not hiring the law degree, they're not hiring the mahogany desk, they're not hiring any of that stuff. They really are hiring the person. And so being able to communicate who you are, and that you give a damn huge competitive advantage. And most most, and I'm sure all of your listeners are probably saying, well, not me, I'm really good.
Steve Fretzin 8:25
Yeah, I'm different.
Conrad Samm 8:26
I'm different. I'm special. You've got By the way, let's let's assume that your..
Steve Fretzin 8:31
They're my audience, so they are special. So if they're listening to this, then there's so I'm putting them up on a pedestal right away,
Conrad Samm 8:36
I'm just going with like, just assume that you are not special. Think about what you can do to communicate to your clients that you care, right. And that's where my 10 commandments came in. And by the way, this was not the 10 commandments was a document that probably took four or five years to put together. And I didn't I didn't start out looking for 10 I was a little concerned about the religious kind of connotation, connotation of that but like, this was an evolving document. I think a lot of times people are will tell you, hey, you're starting a business sit down and write down your guiding principles or what it like you don't know that on day one. But these are really coalesced. And it's Now interestingly, we do a lot of AV testing on advertising for both our clients and for ourselves. Creative on the 10 commandments outperforms anything else that we do. Wow, has nothing to do with we will help you dominate your market or get PPC leads for pennies on the dollar like any of that shit. Yeah, guaranteed top, you know, Google listing all that stuff. People wonder why we're in business. And actually, let me rephrase this. The perfect clients for me want to know why we're in business. Right? And that's important. And it's important that I'm in business to serve them as as as my primary guiding principles.
Steve Fretzin 9:53
And lawyers are in business to serve their clients needs as well. So we're all in this for each other, but I don't know That it always comes across in a pitch or it comes across in filling out a form where your website company is asking for my budget like right up front, what's your budget? Like? They want to know how much money I have and how much I want to spend before they want to talk with me. I'm like, that maybe isn't the best way to start a relationship on a website. But again, that's me and my you know, I'm always diagnose first prescribe later, like, that's a shift that lawyers need to I think needs to take into it's, it's fine to want to present things but don't you want to know what you're presenting? Don't you want to know what their aches and pains are? what's important to them might be helpful?
Conrad Samm 10:33
Well, that's what you know, for us. That's number seven. Don't ask clients what their budget is, tell them what their investment needs to be. That is a very carefully worded phrase. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin 10:43
That's number seven. I can't wait to hear number one. Well, we'll get so we'll get to one. But so so we're gonna do a countdown from 10. Down, are we gonna count?
Conrad Samm 10:51
I'm gonna pick a couple to vote. Okay. Okay. But But this is an A key one, because most agencies will qualify a prospect by asking what their budget is it does two things. One, it tells the client that they're being qualified. And two, it tells them that the agency, especially when your lawyer, because agencies look at lawyers with dollar signs, that their primary interest in you is the revenue that is exactly what that question communicates. What's your budget? Right? It's a terrible question. The other thing is in in, in this, it used to, say, tell them what their spend or something like that needs to be. It's not theirs, it used to be tell them what their budget needs to be. But from an agency perspective, we're not spending money, we're investing money. And if we're, if we're not investing money, we are a, we are a drain on our clients. And so when I talk to our clients, and this is one of the things I inculcate into the vernacular of all of my people, we don't tell them about costs. We don't talk to our clients about budgets or dollars, we, everything is framed in terms of an investment, because that's what marketing is, right? And if it's not an investment, it is turning, letting your kids college fund on fire. And so we don't start with how much do you want to spend, in fact, I have clients, prospects, I'll sit down, like, let's you may have a budget in mind, I do not want you to tell me what that is, I want to know what you're trying to do. And I'm going to come back with an answer to achieve that.
Steve Fretzin 12:11
That's how the real it's refreshing, it's refreshing. And quite frankly, I hear people think of what I do as an expense or as a cost. And it's absolutely the best, you know, in my opinion in my clients opinions, the best investment they can make, because they're actually making it in themselves. They're saying it's like getting an MBA, I mean, that money isn't going to know where that money is going so that you can get a better job or have more experience to get ahead in business or in life. And so when I hear expense, and I hear cost, I don't cringe, but I try to, you know, make sure that the the person I'm speaking with understands, you know, this is all about growth. This is all about getting better and doing more with what you have. And I think they have to see that. And they don't always see it that way. And but the smart ones do. So we have that going for us.
Conrad Samm 12:53
So here's number one you mentioned number one, yeah, this has always been here. Actually not true. a while to get here. This has always been here for my agency. But it took me a while to get here. And it's I love this one. The number one is we love lawyers, right? And the reason I have that is number one. And I mentioned before, like I don't have a JD, I went into this industry in 2006, with a very cynical anti lawyer perspective that 98% of Americans have, maybe it's 97. Right? What I have been able to do, what I have been kind of blessed with is I've seen the inside of what the legal industry does. And I now view the legal industry as a counterbalance to corporate greed. police violence, like people who are on the worst day of their lives, like that is a huge help and assistance to America, I have a beautiful love of this country. I'm an immigrant. And so I have this, like unnaturally large love for this country. And I see the legal system as like the final backstop for people who are at the end of their rope. That is a very noble thing. And by the way, I don't need to tell lawyers that
Steve Fretzin 14:02
Right, right. They know that in spades, some of them
Conrad Samm 14:04
But two groups do not know that one is the public, they don't see it that way. And two is my new employees. Right. And so the first thing that I do when we bring on a new hire is we go to the 10 commandments. And this is number one, and I tell them, it's the same story every time. It's going to take you a while and experience and exposure to some of our clients to develop this understanding because it took me a while but you will see an ability in what we in our being part of this industry that there's a huge nobility in that and it's gonna take a while but you will get there.
Steve Fretzin 14:36
You know, and I sort of feel the same way. I mean, I my father is a retired attorney and I talked about, you know, Larry, the lawyer on occasion, and, you know, just a number of experiences. I mean, first of all him being on the cross everyday as a teenager wasn't great. So that was what I knew about being a lawyer and dealing with lawyers. But then on the other side, you know, he got me out of some fixes or he, you know, reviewed a contract when I was going to get my first home and ended up getting me a parking space. That would have been 20 grand, but I didn't pay for it because he put provisions in the contract to get me, you know, automatically after a year if it wasn't so like, he was so good at what he did. And he did help so many people. And everybody appreciated him to the degree where he was invited to do eulogies, like when, when his client would die, like they wanted Larry to talk, because he knew this guy in intimately. And, you know, that really goes to show what this profession is all about, or what it can be all about with the right mindset. Right?
Conrad Samm 15:28
So a lot another one of my favorite 10 is number four proactively deliver bad news this is goes in in towards my anti agency ethos, I feel like a lot of agencies spend a lot of time and effort making themselves look good. And what they're afraid to do is show problems, right. And so when there's bad news, either it's our fault, or it's not our fault, like, like, we tried pay per click, and it was a disaster, our job is not to convince the client that it was great. Our job is to call out the disaster and help the client figure that out. And so, you know, we haven't, so we have practically deliver bad news. and other one is, it might not be your fault, but it's still our problem. So we we work with clients to like when something goes down, your hosting goes down, like not our fault. Still our problem like we so my people know that, like, if a site goes down, and it does once or twice a year, our job is to know that before the client knows it, communicate to the client that there's a problem and let them know that we're on top of it. Right. And and it's not focused on making ourselves look good. It's, it's focused on fixing this problem.
Steve Fretzin 16:33
Yeah. And I think, you know, if it's an epidemic proportion, but pointing fingers blaming, excuse pointing, you know, just the pointy fingers thing, it's sort of everywhere. And so, I think and I feel in agree that it's so refreshing. When someone says, you know, look, this is what the problem is. And this is what we're going to do it and that's like an old, you know, and a lot of it's an old sales thing or but but don't come to me with a problem come up with a solution, right? That's like a job thing. And so I love that attitude, and that that's high on your list of your top 10. Because now you can..
Conrad Samm 17:02
You can take that to clients for the for legal clients as well, right? Oh, yeah. Listen, I'm gonna let you know. I mean, I don't know how many lawyers go out of their way to say this. But I think it'll be very refreshing to a prospect to be like, Listen, this might not go as as well as you want it to. And my job is not to convince you that things are all under control. My job is to make sure that you know, when things are going off the rails and we go out of our way to tell you when that happens, right? Because, you know, I once had a boss, a very good boss, who told me surprises are for birthdays, right? implicit in that like is, I do not want bad surprises. Yeah, nobody likes surprises. No one likes surprises, right? And so but going out of your way to be real, it like also things like real, like things are not always going to be perfect. But our job is not to make it look like it's perfect. Our job is to fix it. When I..
Steve Fretzin 17:55
Think about litigation in the sense that you know what goes right? I mean, there's things that could go right, there's things that are going to go wrong, but to set up the client to believe that everything is going to go well, and that you're the guy to handle it. And there's never a problem. I mean, that's just not true. And it's not realistic. And what it does is is that when a problem does happen, the client isn't prepared for it. They're not prepared for the rise. It's a surprise. And now we're back to you know, this is a real problem that they weren't ready for. And now only bad things can happen from that point.
Conrad Samm 18:22
Right. And I I also believe the sophisticated, the sophisticated client knows this. Yeah, client that you want. The client that you don't want is the client who wants you to come in and solve everything very easily when they have a complex problem. Yeah, and those are like the type of lawyers that we work with walk away from, like, I don't want the lawyer who insist that everything is gonna go perfectly, because it's just unrealistic. Yeah. So the clients that you want are going to understand that they'll gravitate towards you, right? Again, it leans into empathy as a competitive advantage, right. And this is part of empathy, like, it's not going to go great. I'm in your corner when it doesn't.
Steve Fretzin 18:57
I keep wanting you to say empathy is a competitive sport, but I don't think you're gonna go there. But I get how you feel. And I really, you know, and that's me being empathetic. Okay, so Conrad moving along, let's give us one or two more numbers. And let's go through cuz I everything you've said so far. It's just it's resonating with me big time.
Conrad Samm 19:15
Yeah, this, this is another one that is both internally focused as well as externally focused. This is number two, we are responsible for our clients livelihoods.
Steve Fretzin 19:24
Now, I love that I feel the same way. I mean, I, I have clients coming to me that are stuck doing doc review because they haven't made their business work or they went from a GC to a solo and they just been swimming in nothingness for two years, figuring it out. And I love it because I know that together with the right approach and the right movement, the right attitude, everything that all these great things can happen. I have these great success stories. And so it is their livelihood. It's their future right on the line and sort of be a part of that. It's kind of exciting.
Conrad Samm 19:55
I mean, and it goes back to like my the nobility of working within this into Part of what I believe in heavily. Like, again, I'm an immigrant, I came here, my dad started a business like I've got this beautiful, perfect immigration story. So I have this love of people who run businesses like that is my underlying motivation for working at an agency, I get to help grow small businesses, that is super, super cool. It also means like I, I have this conversation regularly, with with a small, what some of our small clients will say, hey, Conrad, listen, I understand that my budget is not going to be the biggest, and it's not as important to you, but like, it's really, like, I need to know that I'm getting the most out of the $2,000 a month that I'm spending whatever it might be. And the answer is like, actually, the smaller you get, the more important that investment is to you. Because that's not $2,000 from a marketing budget at a p&l that was set up at the beginning of last year, that $2,000 is an exchange for the mortgage payment on the boathouse that you have for the weekend, or your retirement account, or whether or not you're going to redo the bathroom. So like, it's really important for my people to understand that, like, we're responsible not just for growing our clients business, but the end result of growing our clients business is that they live in much more successful, financially successful life. And that, like, that's so important for us to understand. And that means like, I don't want to talk to our clients about like, Hey, you need to expand your your marketing budgets, because like, I'm trying to grow the account, sometimes you don't need to grow the account. Sometimes we have clients and I'm like, Listen, we you should stop spending money with me, because you've achieved your business objectives. Right? You know, not every one of my clients wants to take over the world. I like the ones that do. But like, You're killing it right now. You're like, we don't need to do this anymore.
Steve Fretzin 21:53
Yeah, I love that. And again, that goes back to the transparency and the honesty and in loving lawyers and knowing that you're interested in what's best for them. And it's not just about the numbers, the profit and how long you can retain them and control their site, or whatever you know, people are doing these days that is probably wrong. So let's wrap it up with a final commandment. And then I want to talk about Bedlam, which is this massive marketing summit that you guys are having. And I want to talk a little bit about that.
Conrad Samm 22:19
So this is an old one, but it and it's evolved speaking business terms, not technical jargon, I think a lot of marketing agencies will tell you, here's your search, impression share and your bounce rate and your ranking for bladder that like none of it matters to you guys, the lawyers, you just want clients. And so the key the interesting facet on this is in the last two years, CRM software intake management software matter management software, the reporting functionality from from being able to track marry, who saw this ad to marry signed up as a client, I can now use technology to tie that all together. And now I can talk to my client about things like okay, we're not just delivering phone calls for you, or form fills or chats, we are actually delivering 27 intake, like initial consultations, and they came from these seven different marketing channels. And you spent this on those different seven channels and your intake, like those initial your cost per initial concept, what we call an intake qualified lead is x for across your marketing channels, that's super valuable. So I want to talk about that. I don't care what I mean, we care what our traffic is from a website, right? Like maybe you have really low traffic, and it all converts like great, that's great.
Steve Fretzin 23:31
I mean, people set goals for what they're looking to do as far as growth in how much business they're looking for. And you know, our job, right, collectively business development, marketing, etc, is to help them achieve those goals. And not everybody wants to grow a 50 person firm or 1000 person firm, right? Some people just want to make sure they've got business coming in the door and a sustainable, regular way to feed an associate or him or herself. And that those goals are going to be different than someone who's looking at on the market. If you wanted a
Conrad Samm 23:57
question I would give your audience is how many of you went into 2001? Sorry, 22,021 with a number that was either revenue, or number of intakes, especially if you're a PA lawyer, like as a goal, like this is what we're going to do next year. Most of you didn't. Yeah, I know that because I've talked to lots of you about
Steve Fretzin 24:19
the inside information. Yeah. Well, listen, can read this has been great and helpful. And the things that you're doing for your business clearly can be emulated in the lawyers that are listening and how they take care of their clients, everything else. But at the end of the day, you're also a top level marketing guy who kicks ass every day and is going to be presenting with a bunch of other super high profile marketing folks in Bedlam. Can you talk a little bit about what that retreat is?
Conrad Samm 24:44
Yeah, so it's Bedlam conference calm. It's May 26th. So the first off for this year on May 26. And it is a weird conference because it is put on by four competitors. It's Mike Moran. From nifty Casey Morales from juris digital geet saclac is from attorney sync and myself. Right? So we are frenemies. We're vicious competitors free friends. And one of the things that the four of us found is most of the marketing conferences are like thinly veiled vendor pitches, right. I was asked to spend $8,000, to speak at a marketing conference to a bunch of lawyers $8,000 for one hour talk, it's insane. And when you spend that kind of money to talk, you end up pitching. And it's self serving, and I don't like it. So we created our own conference. And what will end up happening because this is the third year we've done it is you get four of the smartest guys in legal marketing, basically trying to outdo each other in front of us.
Steve Fretzin 25:45
So there's your combat competitive empathy, right? That's it's competitive marketing skills. Awesome. Now is like these want to see that? That's cool.
Conrad Samm 25:53
Yeah, so may 26. If you would like a 50% off on those tickets, you can use the code, Steve. So I just I just came up with that on the fly so well as a 50% off, but it's it's a day long session with four hosts and some other amazing guest speakers. And I would love to see you there. A little bit.
Steve Fretzin 26:13
Well, yeah, I mean, I wanted to promote it, because I think it's important. And it's not just me saying that I'm talking with other marketing professionals that really said it was like the best thing since sliced bread. So I wanted to make sure that we got it out there. So who should be signing up so as an individual personal injury attorneys is that the marketing people in mid market firms? Who is this really built for?
Conrad Samm 26:35
So Bedlam is we really talked about it as advanced, aggressive growth, like you just need a website, and you're on Squarespace. Like it's probably massive overkill, and your brain will hurt at the end of the day. It's really kind of advanced level tactical takeaways, we're going to get into like, for example, one of the sessions is like small things you can do to your website, that'll make a huge impact, right? It's and it's all based not just on like, Hey, I read an SEO book somewhere. But it's like, I've been doing this for 10 years. And we know that this has a big impact, like how do you change your h ones? Like how do you figure out like, like really small things that you can do, they'll have an impact. And so it's the right attendee is, is either a in house marketing team, for like an aggressively growing firm who wants tactical insight, it's also good for like, if you are the attorney at the firm who's in charge of growing the firm, or if that's what you do, this will give you a great understanding of how you're getting screwed by your agency, things to think about, like it gives you a very, very, it arms you with a lot of information tactically to get the most out of what you're trying to do. So that's that's, you know, that's who should attend, I don't mean to down talk, like what I'll call the beginner stuff. But it's hands on tactical, intense, but we we actually, the first year we did it, we did it as a one day and people complained, they were like, there was too much to handle in one day. Yeah. And so we turned it into a two day event, which was better. And we're now doing kind of four days throughout the year, so people can can fully grok what they're getting.
Steve Fretzin 28:14
And I don't think it's a bad thing that it's a little more advanced. And at the end of the day, you know, you don't want people that are there that are more advanced are looking for more and they're sitting here, you know, a wet let's define what a web site is. And they're like, Are you kidding me? Right? So you want to make sure that the audience you know, meets up with where you and your partners in this are, are coming from, and it's signed, so that I think that clarity is really important. So in wrapping up, Conrad, thanks so much. I think this was I don't think I know this was incredibly helpful. And hopefully, you know, some people in my audience are considering how they're approaching their clients and thinking about you know, more more impactful ways to to make sure that they love their clients the way you love lawyer.
Conrad Samm 28:53
So yeah, go to like, like, why do we exist? Like, why did I get the lottery great from the beginning and make sure that that a lot of you have that altruism is not the right word. It's like that nobility of what you're doing. Make sure that that nobility is coming through in your marketing material, because most of you guys just do a terrible job of the whys.
Steve Fretzin 29:10
Yeah, the why it's all about the why that's what's coming out more and more in marketing. And it makes sense because it's what makes people want to work with you is What are you about? Right? And not just what you know, but what do you care and what are you about? So yeah, really great. So thanks so much. And then we'll get this out right away, because May 26 is coming up real fast. And everybody Listen, I just want to thank you for sharing some time with Conrad and myself today. To be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, checkout Bedlam. 50% off if you use the code word, Steve, we'll put that in the show notes. And listen, take care be safe, and hopefully we'll see it Bedlam. Thanks so much, Steve. Thank you camera ticker.
Narrator 29:52
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.