In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Colleen Hurley discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"The thing that is most helpful is doing great work for someone - because then they’re going to want to refer you, they’re going to want to give your name to a friend who needs that same level of work." — Colleen Hurley
Connect with Colleen Hurley:
Website: LavelleLaw.com
Phone: 312-888-4112
Email: CHurley@LavelleLaw.com
LinkedIn: Colleen Hurley
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Colleen Hurley 0:00
It's not only about bringing in the cases and having the right connections to boost the numbers on your book of business, but consistently providing quality representation to that book, devoting yourself to that book. Because I find the thing that's most helpful is doing great work for someone because then they're going to want to refer you and they're going to want to give your name to a friends who need that same level of work.
Narrator 0:29
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, and we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:52
Well, hello there everyone and welcome to my show, be that lawyer. As you know, my name is Steve Fretzin. If you're a first time listener, just to share a little bit about my background, I am not a lawyer, I was recruited into legal space back in 2008, when the recession hit. And really for the past 16 years, I've devoted all my time and energy to helping business professionals, specifically lawyers that are looking for control in the peace of mind that comes with having their own book of business, their own clients, and again, continuing to drive a larger, more sustainable book of business. Speaking of books in a different light, I have written three books on business development, sales, free selling, the attorneys networking Handbook, and most recently, the ambitious attorney all available on Amazon. So check those out. If you'd like a free ebook, just email me at Steve at frets and calm requesting it and I will send you one or all three of the books in a virtual sense. I also write a monthly column for the Chicago daily level attend. So keep an eye out for that on a regular basis. And check out my website at frets and calm For more information, podcast information, video, blog, all that fun stuff. I am very excited today to introduce one of my past clients and just one of the nicest most wonderful people I know Colleen Hurley with Lavelle law. She focuses in the area of family law and litigation here in Chicago. And I want to welcome you to the show.
Colleen Hurley 2:16
Thanks so much for having me, Steve. Great to be with you.
Steve Fretzin 2:19
Absolutely. My pleasure. And just for our listeners out there. Can you give a little more background on your practice? And just your focus?
Colleen Hurley 2:28
Sure. So I'm on our litigation team at Laval law, Laval law is a full service law firm based in Chicago and the schomburg area, we serve as Cook County, as well as the surrounding counties here in the Chicago area. I'm on our litigation team focusing mainly on family law. So that includes divorce, custody, adoption, orders of protection support, prenups and postnup. To name a few.
Steve Fretzin 2:53
Awesome, and, you know, the show is called be that lawyer. So I have to ask, you know, what inspired you to, you know, be a business developer, what was the realization that that growing a book of business was important?
Colleen Hurley 3:05
Well, it started out slowly at first, when I graduated from law school, one of the things I kept hearing is that networking is everything. So I made sure that as I was developing as a new attorney, I was also networking a lot. And I found a lot of great connections and mentorship through that. But then also kind of as a side effect of that is that I started bringing, in my own cases to my law firm. And it started out slow. And then it started to build up more as I got more experience and more momentum and traction and more word of mouth was going around from past happy clients and referral sources. And it got to the point where I realized I was bringing in cases, but it was a little bit, you know, here and there sporadic, not really something I could predict very much. So I got to a point where I liked what was happening. And I wanted to keep it up and keep the momentum going and make sure I was doing everything I needed to do to make sure that I was continuing to build and develop that book of business. So that's when I got interested in business development. And that's when I met you, Steve.
Steve Fretzin 4:09
Well, it was a wonderful having you as a client, one of the things that I tell people is that I'm only as good as my players, and you definitely, you know, came to play. So, you know, it wasn't just about going through my training classes and the one on one coaching, you are proactive in calling me to say, you know, here's something I want to practice or here's something I want to work on and and that's something I admire and in any clients I work with, let me ask you in coming into a program like you did with with mine, did you have any concerns about hiring a man to help you grow business, you didn't feel like I was going to be mansplaining to you or anything like that?
Colleen Hurley 4:46
No, I never had those concerns about you. And perhaps that's because I met with you a couple of times before we started working together. And really for me, it was just, you know, making sure that this was a good fit for me. And making sure that it would be a investment that I could back. But in speaking with you, you know, you were always very helpful really, really gave me some great advice to work with. And I realized I wanted more of that. For me, generally, gender has never really been a consideration. When it comes to thinking of who I want to work with, who I want to work for, and who I want mentorship from, I would say some of the best people I've worked with, whether it's clients, employers or mentors have been men. And I don't think it's personally I don't think it has one thing or another to do with gender, I think it has everything to do with the kind of person you're talking with and who you click with the most, I think it's much more a personality thing than a gender thing for me.
Steve Fretzin 5:47
Yeah, I think personality plays a big role in it, you have to have a connection with the coach and the client for things to really work, if there's a disconnect there that could blow up the whole thing. So I think it is important for for men and women, if you're looking for a coach or looking for a mentor, to make sure that that you guys really are synergistic, and your mindsets and how you're going to work together. And I also get that, you know, women have, you know, a lot of balance issues that that men don't necessarily have, and that could be the family and, and other another elements. And, again, I've worked with enough women with different situations, having, you know, kids and, and all types of situations where we just have to adapt, and we have to be understanding, and we have to try to, you know, to think ahead on on how that's going to impact time and time management and, and stress and all those other things. But for you were there were there some specific things that you learned working with me and being in my program that you've been able to apply out on the field and growing your book.
Colleen Hurley 6:47
You gave me so many skills, and ideas about how to be effective, that it's really hard to narrow. But one of the ones that I call upon just about every day, is to how to run an effective networking and potential client meeting. And one of the things I've taken away the most is right out the gate at the beginning of those meetings is taking the pressure off, making clear to the person you're speaking with that it's purely about getting to know them. And hopefully at the end of the conversation or the meeting that it makes sense to work together, but also letting them know that it's okay, if there isn't a good fit. And there, there's no hard feelings there. And I found that that has been so effective that I've noticed, you know, a physical change, and almost like an internal sigh of relief. And that person because that person that knows I'm not trying to sell them or pressure them into a relationship that they don't want. And I think that just by taking that pressure off, that person wants to work with you more, because it's not a pressurized environment.
Steve Fretzin 7:52
Yeah, I think that's really important. So, you know, you're essentially taking a process that's sort of been proven out, and then using it and making it your own, certainly customizing it to your own personality and, and communication style. And then using it and then watching his people, you know, melt in front of you in a positive way, because it's something that relaxes them and makes them more comfortable. So I think one of the things that I'm regularly talking about is, we're really focused on what we call sales, free selling. So the idea that we don't have to be salesy, we don't have to be a sales person to drive business development to improve networking meetings to have success of growing a book. Were there any other specific processes or parts of a process that you've been using that you've been really excited about and seeing work?
Colleen Hurley 8:38
Well, I think one thing that's really helpful is really taking a critical look at what your networking activities have been, and what's been working and what hasn't, instead of just deciding, you know, the more networking I do, the better and just going to every single networking events, whether it's going to be with people who are going to be good partners with you or not. What I've learned the most is that you have to be so careful with your time, because as an attorney, most of your day is focused on the billable hours. So when you spend time networking and doing non billable work, you want to make sure it's effective. So one thing you really helped me figure out is what was working for me in terms of networking meetings, and what was a little bit more spinning my wheels. And that was through narrowing who I liked to work with and who's been effective to work with on my hands and also who I can add value to. So with that, it helps me kind of narrow my non billable networking time to the events that have been the most helpful and focusing on those types of people and making sure that my efforts are directed mostly in that direction.
Steve Fretzin 9:48
Yeah, I think that's really that's a really great takeaway. And I appreciate that that's, that's something that you're utilizing on a regular basis. I I recall recently having someone This is back, we're going through the whole COVID-19 chrome Time now, so no one's really meeting face to face. But, you know, a number of months ago, I had a gentleman that was a superior networker referred to me as a superior networker. And so I met with him to kind of understand what, and sure enough, he is out there, he's doing everything he's, you know, a madman just running out meeting everybody building up this great network. And I asked him just to just try to identify what was going on, really. And I asked him on a scale of one to 10 how good networker are you? And he said, Oh, I'm like a nine or a 10 out of 10. I said, Okay, let me ask you another question. And don't take this the wrong way. But I'm because I'm curious, on a scale of one to 1010 being that you're getting remarkable results that you're getting more business than you can handle from the networking activities that you're engaging in. And a one being that you're getting really nothing from all this activity, other than a lot of Glenn handing and a lot of hand shaking, you know, for, you know, building up, you know, people that know you, and he put himself at like a two or three, and I can see the look in his eye kind of, you know, the realization that that Yeah, you can go out and be a networking crazy person. But if you're not getting results from the time invested, if you're not building meaningful relationships that are going somewhere, you know, it's just gonna kill your hour, your billable hourly, time. And so this was a realization for him. And, you know, I think it's important for people to recognize that, you know, networking, you know, when done intelligently can really lead to great stuff. And so it sounds like that's what you're doing, which, which just makes me like a proud, Papa, you know, that you were such a terrific clients. So let me ask one other question relating to this, if you could be a coach, you know, pretend you're the coach for a moment. You know, for the people listening to this podcast? What are some things that they should be thinking about to be successful in growing their book of business? What are a couple a couple additional thoughts you would have around how to be successful at building a book?
Colleen Hurley 11:50
Well, I think the most important thing, and sometimes this goes without saying sometimes not is really focusing on your work products. It's not only about bringing in the cases and having the right connections to boost the numbers on your book of business. But consistently providing quality representation to that book, devoting yourself to that book, because I find the thing that's most helpful is doing great work for someone because then they're going to want to refer you, and they're going to want to give your name to a friends who need that same level of work. So I would say that's number one. Number two is the thing I found the most helpful is thinking about what you could do for someone else. So when you have a network of people that you network with, focus on helping them focus on making the connections that you can for them, and building that relationship you have with them, keeping it a strong one. Because I think when it's clear to them, that you're not just out to see what you can get from them and nothing else, they're going to want to help you to, if something comes along, that's a good introduction or a good fit, they're going to think of you, they're going to want to help you because you've been wanting to help them. I think that those, those two points are invaluable. The other thing I think, is to know not to be, you know, a crazy networker where you call yourself on a scale of one to 10 and nine or 10 networker, but only pulling in, you know, a scale of two to three in terms of business. But making sure you're focusing your networking and going to the events that are going to be helpful for you. But really being present at those events, trying to get to know the people in the room, hear their story, see how you can help them and follow up after those networking events. It's not all about just gathering business cards just to keep in a box somewhere. It's about figuring out who you liked at those events and following up and talk further meet further build that relationship. And hopefully, you know, as you build that relationship, you find that you can each be helpful to each other.
Steve Fretzin 13:54
Yeah, those are all really good points. And I'd like to add on to the last one, which is the way that I sort of describe successful networking is really like a story. Right? There's a beginning there's a middle and there's an end. And in this sense, it's, you know, what's the beginning of the story? Well, it's, you know, where are you networking? Are the people that you that need your services, or the people that can refer you business? Are they at the event? And is that structured in a way that's going to be useful to you? So that's, you know, planning to go and be successful at a networking event, you know, having a good infomercial and being really prepared. And then when you're there are you as you said, listening? Are you asking questions? Are you identifying, you know, the best people in the room? And if you're talking with them and learning about them, are they a good potential fit for a next step with you? Or is it someone that it's good to know them but probably not so helpful to keep investing time, maybe their business is completely different than then you know, what you're looking to do. And then lastly, as you mentioned, following up you know, who you've you know, calling to schedule a coffee with or in today's world, to schedule a zoom meeting or a phone call with Failure to do any of those three parts, you know, can be failure in networking, and you end up just spinning your wheels. And the other word I would put out there is qualifying, it's never been more important, as you know, to, you know, qualify is the person you're meeting with not only someone you could do business with and help, that that can help you, but someone that you like, and someone that is organized enough to be able to follow up and you know, return a phone call, Is it someone that that has a network, that's going to make it easy for them to refer you and vice versa? So there's a lot of different elements that go into being successful. But I think you and I just kind of clarified some really important ones that, you know, any lawyer would need to know, to, to start getting their act together as it relates to being successful at growing business. Yeah, I agree. And then how about dealing with the challenges of sort of the billable hour and the client needs? And then and then also growing business? That's a big pushback I get from people as well, I don't have time to do business development, because I'm busy, you know, billing hours, or I'm busy with trial or things like that, what are your thoughts on that?
Colleen Hurley 16:08
Oh, man, with the billable hour, you know, there is that pressure, and that time constraints, and it does feel like you know, you don't have time to do anything else. But what I find is, if you care enough about something you make the time, for me business development was something I really wanted to focus on, while also being sure I was hitting my billable hours. So really, I prioritize those two things and made those, you know, the two things I focused on the most professionally, and then, you know, filled some gaps with everything else that I could. But in working with you, I was able to make sure that I could arrange my schedule to not only work with you in the coaching program and work on my business development, but also not only consistently hit my billable hours, but I actually at the Christmas party this past year, I won the award for Most billable hours at my firm. And on top of that I win the award for Most pro bono hours at my firm. Wow, I say that not to brag, but just to say that it's totally possible. I think that there's for an attorney, there's always going to be an excuse in the argument that you don't have enough time. But I can tell you, it's possible if you commit to it. And if you make it a priority, I think if it's something that you want to do, you're able to rearrange some things to make room for it and find that not only do you have the time for it, but that it, it benefits you seven folds, I think in the long run. While it could be tough to squeeze in the time and manager's time there. I think it's totally worth it and worth making the effort to do.
Steve Fretzin 17:45
And I think now with the, you know, with the Coronavirus, and all the things that are going on, you know, I don't know if lawyers are hunkering down or just trying to maintain what they have. But I don't know that it's not trying to be self promoting. But I don't know that there's a better time to read a book or listen to a podcast or do something valuable learn time management, it's a skill. It's not something you're born with time management skills. It's all learned. And so I don't know, you know, developing business, yes, but learning business development, learning, marketing, improving your branding. I mean, these are all this is like the perfect time to do that. And I'm not sure if that's if that's going on out there right now or not, but it should be.
Colleen Hurley 18:25
I agree, I found that kind of a blessing in disguise with the coronavirus pandemic. And the stay at home order based on that is, you know, all the things that you've been putting off saying that you're not home enough to do and you don't have enough time to do now it's time to confront those things if you're home. So, I think now is a great time to start doing those things that you had previously resolved to do when credit for once a time is suddenly the time is here. We're not commuting to work anymore. The courts are closed. I find personally I am able to knock out a lot more work just being at home I'm interrupted as opposed to being an office. So I think now is really the time if someone is thinking about growing their business development skill set to do that now so you're ready to hit the ground running once the stay at home order is lifted, and we're all back out there.
Steve Fretzin 19:19
Yeah, so let's let's see what happens. I mean, it's it's sort of an unprecedented time and situation and we're going to see kind of who comes out the other side of it, you know, healthier than then they started from a business development standpoint from a legal legal stamp, you know, legal job stability standpoint, things like that. last segment I like to do and call on a call like this is is something called they never taught me this in law school. And as you know, there's a lot of things that you learn in law school that are incredibly helpful to being a practitioner and and then I hear on a regular basis lawyers say Geez, I just wish they had taught me this in law school. What's the one thing that you wish they had taught you in law school, that they didn't that would be to you in building a successful law practice?
Colleen Hurley 20:03
Oh, that's a great question. I'm gonna have to think about that. Um, there are a few things that I wish I learned in law school, I would say that the most effective, the thing that I wish I learned the most, I would say is how to manage billable time, because that's something that as an attorney, you're learning by doing. The billable hour didn't exist when you were in law school not working as an attorney, at least that didn't for me. So with the billable hour thing was a totally new way of thinking and structuring your life. And as an attorney or not, as a new attorney, you're not only learning how to be an attorney, and how to service your clients, but also how to manage your time in a way that works for the firm, and makes you a helpful and beneficial asset to the firm. So with that, I guess I would say I wish they taught in law school, how to structure your day, in a way where you can effectively hit that billable hour every day while also learning and growing as an attorney. For me, it was just kind of learning by doing. And it would be great to kind of have had a mini experience of that in law school.
Steve Fretzin 21:17
So maybe more practical like business, you know, you're in a firm type advice, you know, sort of to get you prepared for what you're going to be walking into.
Colleen Hurley 21:25
Yes. One thing I did learn in law school, and maybe this isn't everywhere, is the importance of networking. That was something I was hearing time and time again, at my time at DePaul. And that's been the most helpful. I know of some attorneys that maybe weren't getting that same messaging, as they were coming out as new attorneys. And they started thinking about networking much later in their career. And I think if it's something that you didn't learn in law school or hear about, now's the time to think about it if you haven't before, because I could say that's been the most invaluable help to me.
Steve Fretzin 21:58
terrific, terrific. Well, listen, listen, thank you very much. And how do people get in touch with you? Or is there anything you'd like to promote with your own practice or the or the firm.
Colleen Hurley 22:07
Of course, so I'm at lavelle law, which is spelled l ey. V as in Victor, e, l, l, e, la, la W, I'm reachable at my direct line, which is 312-888-4112, or my email address, which is my first initial and last name @lavellellaw.com spelled ch you are LEY at L ey. V as in Victor, e. l. l e. l a w.com. And I'm more than happy to talk to anyone who's thinking about working on their business development. And certainly working with you, Steve, I'm happy to talk about my experiences up. And certainly if anyone needs any family law help or other legal help, my firm is full service. And I'm happy to help however we can.
Steve Fretzin 22:55
Yeah, I work with you in the past. And I'm working with a bunch of your attorney partners now. And just a great group of people. Really very fortunate to be to be a part of it. So Colleen, again, thank you so much for being on the show. You're terrific. I just I'm a big fan.
Colleen Hurley 23:11
I'm a big fan of you, Steve, thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate your time today.
Steve Fretzin 23:15
Sure, sure. And everybody. Thank you for listening. Hope you enjoy today's show and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, take care and be safe.
Narrator 23:32
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.