In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Christopher Melcher discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"If you want to grow and go beyond [a small solo practice], and make a lot more money, you need to bring in more clients. The only way you're going to do that is with a marketing strategy that makes sense and that you apply." — Christopher Melcher
Connect with Christopher Melcher:
Website: WalzerMelcher.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ccmelcher
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Christopher Melcher 0:00
Again, if you want to be a solo and stay there, that's perfectly fine. And actually you can do really well doing that. But if you want to grow and and go beyond that and make a lot more money, you need to bring in more clients and the only way you're going to do that is with a marketing strategy that makes sense and that you apply.
Narrator 0:24
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:45
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you're having a great day so far. My name is Steve Fretzin, as the announcer mentioned and I have a company called Fretzin Inc. where we work with attorneys pretty heavy basis, helping them to double or triple their books of business through some planning and execution on business development, things you never learned in law school, and happy to have you visit my website at frets and calm or check out any of my three books on Amazon if you're interested. So now that that's aside, let's talk about the business at hand. today. I've got an amazing guest premiere family and law divorce attorney Christopher Melcher Christopher, how's it going?
Christopher Melcher 1:25
Great, Steve, thanks for having me on the show. I'm really excited to be here with you today.
Steve Fretzin 1:30
Wow, I appreciate it very much. I've heard nothing but good things about you from some of my client, Attorney friends. And so I was super happy and excited to hear what you have to say and everything. But if you wouldn't mind just giving my audience another little Reader's Digest version on your background. And, and not only that, but you know, maybe some of the things you've accomplished as a as a as a Rainmaker as a marketer in the legal space.
Christopher Melcher 1:54
So I'm a divorce lawyer, I'm based in Los Angeles, and I have pretty much a statewide practice in California, doing the the biggest divorce cases out there. We have right now seven lawyers in our office, we've been bigger, and we're trying to get back up to those numbers. But we're representing super wealthy people going through a divorce. That's our niche. And this comes from really mining that particular area. And we're very selective about the clients we take. And we're referring out most of the other stuff. I've moved mostly into big time, financial divorce is where I like to be in international issues, where we have by Coastal or multinational couples going through a divorce. And so that's and then also on the appellate level. So that's where most of my day is spent is, is bringing in these big cases, and managing them.
Steve Fretzin 2:55
Yeah. And I be curious to know at what point in your career, you figured out that marketing was something that you may want to consider doing or actually start doing?
Christopher Melcher 3:05
Well, I had to learn that, although my dad was a lawyer, he was a solo. And he didn't know anything about marketing. He did well, but he was a good lawyer, but he didn't know a thing about marketing. And so I did, okay, I started as a solo, because there was no work available. When I got out in 1994, the conditions, the economic conditions were very bad. And so I had to go out as a solo, and learn how to practice law and try and bring in business it went okay, but there were certainly times that I struggled. And as a solo, it was very, very kind of touching go at times. And then by happenstance, I met this guy down the hall from me, who was doing divorce. And I never thought I wouldn't do anything with divorce. But I was had an open mind. And he was looking for a partner or associate somebody to bring in he was older than me. And so I got to know him. And I learned about his practice and took a dive in and went to work for him. And then eventually, me, him and his secretary formed this partnership, and grew it from, from that to what we have now, which is a pretty substantial business.
Steve Fretzin 4:23
Gotcha. And it's interesting. My father is also a solo retired attorney. And I've got some funny stories about his lack of business acumen back in the day, but still retired with plenty of dough and he's doing fine. He's 86 and down in Florida half the year when he can. So it's, but it's amazing. And I never thought about lawyers ever needing business development or marketing. It was just the business was always there. So what's the problem? And now obviously, it's no one's come home to roost where that words become, you know, one of the most important things a lawyer probably needs to know. So let's take that to the next point. And what keeps most lawyers from marketing These days.
Christopher Melcher 5:01
So I think that this is ingrained in our profession. We're stifled, we're terrible marketers, because it was illegal for us to market as lawyers for the beginning parts of the legal profession. And it was only in really recent times, I'm saying from the maybe the 70s, or something on that, that we could actually market our practices. And I think that there is a elitist, we're above all this advertising, marketing stuff that lawyers have in their consciousness. And I understand that we're a profession where we're not supposed to look like other companies or businesses. And that's what's gotten us off track. And that thought that we're going to just sit there and be great lawyers, and people will just somehow come to us from the atmosphere, that might be enough to run a solo practice, and support rent and a secretary, you're never gonna grow beyond that without it. And so I think that there's, there's lawyers that use this, we're above marketing as an excuse, because they don't want to put themselves out there, they don't have the confidence, they're afraid. And so then they said, Oh, I'm not going to market. Well, again, if you want to be a solo and stay there, that's perfectly fine. And actually, you can do really well doing that. But but if you want to grow, and, and go beyond that, and make a lot more money, you need to bring in more clients. And the only way you're going to do that is with a marketing strategy. That makes sense, and that you apply.
Steve Fretzin 6:36
Yeah. And I think the the fears that they have and the mindset that they come out of law school with is changing, I think they're starting to realize what's going on. In fact, I just signed somebody up, who has only been a lawyer for two months. And normally, that's not the timing of someone to hire me and invest in business development, coaching and training. But this young man is just so hungry, and so ready to grow, and doesn't want to wait and have to put through the years of, of just winging it or figuring out, you know, on the, you know, wing in a prayer. And so I think that might be the signal that that things are changing?
Christopher Melcher 7:11
Well, Steve, I am so excited to hear that. Because if I would have known about your services, when I was a two month old lawyer, I would have been making twice as much money right now. And it's like, if that person is out here in like California, or Los Angeles area, please put them, I want to hire them. Because this is, this is what it is. It's like I spent 10 years waiting to figure out how to be this and I figured I was going to try cases and people are going to come to me, if I would have known about all that back then it would have saved so much time. And what's hold. The other thing that's holding people back is they figure Oh, I need a bigger resume, once I get on this committee or try this many cases or become partner, then I'll start marketing. That's all nonsense. Most of the, like super successful lawyers, probably not even very good lawyers. They're good marketers. That's why they're making money. And so learning that stuff, and especially now with social media and video, you don't need to be a great lawyer, you just need to work really, really hard. And apply these concepts, get coaching, I think from yourself is what people need this, they can't figure it out by themselves, they need help. And I've used a coach that the absolutely need that accountability and knowledge and and then it starts.
Steve Fretzin 8:31
And let's transition that and I appreciate that. And look, I'm excited to you know, have the opportunity to work with ambitious attorneys that are, you know, interested in learning and growing and, and that, you know, that might be a 5% sliver of the of the legal universe. But, you know, for me, that's fantastic. Because those are the people that I that I that I get a lot of, you know, energy and working with. So it ends up being a great win win if it's if they're ready to learn, and I'm ready to teach and we can partner to accomplish some bigger goals and not waste time. I'm on board, as you know. Now let me ask this since we Bri brought up the concept of, of young lawyers, and then there's older lawyers, and there's different stages where lawyers might want to get involved not only in marketing, but also in speaking as a marketing tool. Can you talk to that? Because I know you've been very successful on the speaking circuit and building business through that channel.
Christopher Melcher 9:22
Sure. So that's how I got started. And so just going back a little bit my my business partner is Peter Walzer. His dad was Stuart Walzer who legitimized the big case divorce practice in California. And so before that, and we're going back in the 60s or 70s, just divorce practices where they had no respect I mean, to the extent they have any now they didn't have any back then he legitimize this and saying you could have a shop that just handles big divorce, and he was an excellent marketer Peter learned from him and then I followed him. They're footsteps. And what they did was speak to other lawyers. And when I started with this divorce practice that made no sense to me, I always thought, No, you market the clients. Now we don't mark, at least in our practice to clients, we market to other lawyers, because those are the ones that send us work. Somebody worth a billion dollars isn't going to go on the internet start googling who's a good divorce lawyer. They're going to have their business lawyer, their manager, their assistant, and and they're going to source that person, they're going to go to other lawyers, somewhere, maybe even outside LA and California and find that. So we're marketing to other lawyers. And a great way to do that is through speaking at CLE seminars. And so the first one I did, I didn't know anything about family law. And so it's just like, Peter helped me get the speaking gig, I'm going to speak at the San Fernando Valley Bar Association on criminal and Family Law crossover because I was I came from criminal defense. So I don't know a thing about family law. And I don't want to look stupid. So I learned everything I needed to know about this domestic violence crossover issue. That was seminar number one. And that's how I learned family law because now I've done 200 seminars, and each one of those either an hour and all day program, they take a tremendous amount of time to prepare for. And through doing 200 seminars, I know a little bit about family law. And each one of those seminars has got 50 to 300 400 people watching them. And then I've got co presenters that I get to meet. And you do that 200 times, you not only know your subject, you know a lot of people and a lot more people know you. And so that's the method that worked for me. And then now, there's going to be though different, like you say, four stages, and I have different suggestions, it would just depend on what lawyer you're trying to help.
Steve Fretzin 12:01
Gotcha. So so when you talk stages, we're talking about maybe a younger lawyer at that at the early stages of a career versus metal versus etc. Is that where we're going with this? Exactly.
Christopher Melcher 12:11
So if you're the lawyer who's just starting out, you're the two month lawyer that you have as this new client. My suggestion to that person is, first of all, don't be afraid, don't worry that you're only a two month lawyer, that there are people that are going to help and bring you in. And so the first thing is like, Where are these speaking gigs come from and and so we're all these large organizations are run by volunteers. There are other lawyers who are on these committees that are trying to come up with a seminar topic and run this and we're not getting paid to do this. And so I would go to the limits. If you're a young lawyer, I'll go to the smallest bar organization you can find, come up with a topic that you think is interesting. find out who's the seminar committee leader, and say, hey, I've got a presentation I'd like to give to your group. And don't say I go, I've only been practicing two months, and I don't know what I'm doing.
Steve Fretzin 13:06
Maybe, maybe don't maybe don't leave with that, right? Yeah, don't
Christopher Melcher 13:08
Leave with that. But just say like, hey, I've got this presentation, it's on this subject matter. And I'm super passionate about it. And I'd love to present to your group. Yeah. And they're gonna say, Sure, let's pick a date. And it's not gonna be in person. Now, it's going to be a video fine. And that's going to be your first seminar. Don't tell anybody. It's your first seminar, but that's going to be your first one, start small, you'll realize how to do it. And then it becomes easy from there. And then hopefully, it's going to spark that passion in you. And to say, like, wow, this wasn't so bad. I learned a lot. I met a few people. And then you build from there and and do it 234 or five times and then you're, you're now you got your sea legs. Okay, so don't expect like you're going to do this presentation, you're going to get five cases. But the for the starting out lawyer, you just need to figure out how do you get these speaking gigs, and how do you put them on? That's all you're trying to do.
Steve Fretzin 14:02
And by the way, just as an aside, one of my previous guests is a gentleman and David Fram. So if you're listening to this, and you're like, I'd love to be a speaker, but I'm super introverted, or uncomfortable or I don't know how to present an effective manner. David Fram has all kinds of workshops that he does and coaching that he provides to help people become better speakers. So that may be helpful if you're looking to improve your speaking skills prior to starting out and making speaking a part of your marketing play for 2021 and into the future.
Christopher Melcher 14:33
That is super important. And I liked that episode. And I've worked with communication coaches, and I've you know, looked at you know, all this stuff's on video on YouTube now to so you can you can see like, how do you do a good speech? Because the thing is, is that as you're you're doing these speaking gigs, you want to look good. Your goal is your stated goal is to teach the subject Your secret goal is to get cases and to brand yourself. And to build this image as the the lawyer in this subject matter that that is the go to person. You don't say that, but that's your, your hidden objective. You're never gonna get that if you give a bad speech. And so you want it to be entertaining. The good thing is, is the expectations for lawyers going to illegal seminar are extremely low, because lawyers are horrible speakers. I don't understand this. You figure lawyers should all be great presenters. No, they're horrible, horrible presenters. They hunker down behind a desk, they ramble. They're unprepared. If you go in there, even if you don't know what you're talking about, and you're entertaining, and you're funny and dynamic, people are going to listen to you and get to remember and like you.
Steve Fretzin 15:44
Yeah, that makes a big difference to being memorable. Not for being bad, but for being entertaining, and for giving some really good points that demonstrate your expertise, and also build some rapport with a group or with individuals within that group.
Christopher Melcher 15:57
Yep. Yeah. So I'd say in that beginning stage lawyer, it's figuring out like, Where, where do I get the speaking gigs? How do I speak. And once you've done a few of those, and you figure that out, you know, and you got some couple years behind your belt, now you're in a mid stage lawyer. And at this point, now you're you're trying to figure out what is your niche going to be because being a general practitioner, or you're going to even a civil litigator or defense attorney, it's too broad. And so you got to brand yourself and figure out like, what differentiates you from the other lawyers? Why is somebody going to pay you a premium? What are you going to deliver that other lawyers aren't going to deliver? So that gets into this whole concept of branding. And so now that you practice a few years, you kind of figure out like, Okay, what do you like to do? What are you good at doing? What are you passionate about? And then start mining that, and then you start picking seminar topics that are specific to that area, because that's the kind of work that you want to do your work that you want to get, like, for me and family law. There's a very broad range of topics that I can speak on. Now, do I want to speak on? How to Set support for low income individuals? Does welfare count as income for spousal support and child support? Those are interesting and important topics for sure. But is that the case I want? No, I want to talk about wealthy folks going through a divorce that have to set child support that have so much money that it's going to blow up the calculator that we use, and where you have to set support without a formula because they make so much money. That's what I want to talk about. Most people never get those cases in the door. But after they hear me speak about that enough, and I tell them stories, and this is important about speaking is you have to put yourself in action saying well, I had a case once involving a billionaire. And they have so much money. And this is how I made the argument. And this is the outcome. And this is how I got them through that now they see you in action. When the case comes in the door. If it's out of their area, or they just can't handle it, who are they going to send it to me. And so in your middle stage, you want to be thinking about what is your niche, and you want to mine that niche.
Steve Fretzin 18:13
And I love that because you're talking about how someone's not only developing as an attorney, but also how that then impacts how they're focusing on the presentation for the group of individuals that they want to target, whether it's a specific types of lawyers or specific types of end users. So I love that you're that you're you're building off of what you already have done.
Christopher Melcher 18:35
Yeah, that that's, that took me a while because initially, I just love speaking. I mean, I'm not when I started marketing, like going to a cocktail party was like, this was horrible. The worst experience I would, there was like, I can't even handle this. I hate it. But if but if I were on a stage with 300 people, no problem. That was actually more comfortable doing it that way. And then I just started speaking at everything that I could get my hands on, I was doing it once a week at one point. But then it just I felt like I wasn't focused. And so when I started thinking about branding, in niche, that's when I started becoming super selective about what I was going to speak about. And then the final part, and this is where we're kind of in stage lawyers, or late stage lawyers, and I'm seeing is is that these lawyers have done very well. But now all their referral sources are dying or retiring. And so for them, and they've done very well for many years getting referrals from their friends. And but those friends aren't around anymore, and they've forgotten about the generation of lawyers before them. And the lawyers that that were the young ones that that they did paid no attention to the associates and they dismissed them. And now it's payback time because there's no Work coming in for them. And so that's a mistake. And so what they need to be doing, if they haven't done it already is go back to those younger lawyers, and build relationships with them. Because now when they're these younger lawyers, now they're in 40s, or 50s of the ones that are going to be bringing in the business and doing the referrals to the ones in their 60s and 70s. And so that's important. And then to finish it off, if you are that, that kind of senior attorney that's done well, and you have all the connections and you know how to speak and you know, what your niche is, here's what's missing is a call to action. And, and that's the hardest part. And that was hard for me, because it's like, and I've seen this with myself, I've seen this with my partner, where it's like, wow, we've we've done everything we've been on every committee, we've got every award we've been we've handled every type of case, why isn't the phone ringing? Well, nobody knows what to do with you. They think like, well, you're super successful, you don't need work, or you only handle this particular type of case. So they don't know what to do with you. They know you, but they don't know what to do with you. And so now what I've been doing is a call to action. So it's it's like, I've done the presentation where somewhere in there. And it's saying, Hey, you know what, if you had a super complicated legal issue come up and one of your divorce cases, you want to consult with me, I'm happy to do that, pick up the phone call me, I'm always available to do that. I won't even charge you to talk about your case.
Steve Fretzin 21:34
Yeah, so there's some there's some incentive that you're providing, you know, in this case, free advice to, you know, get them to consider, hey, you know, that would be the next step would be to take action. And again, give me a shout.
Christopher Melcher 21:45
That's it. Because we, when I've studied these other lawyers, and I know everyone in this space, there's some lawyers who we understand like, are absolute experts in a particular niche of family law. But then we don't know like, are they? What are they looking for business? How do we work with them? Do they just know this stuff? Or are they available to consult or we don't know what to do with them, because they never told us. And it's so simple. And one of the things when I switched over to a lot of video learning. I was trying to develop this a little bit more. And I figured, gee, I'd like to get some more Google reviews. How am I gonna get these Google reviews? Well, it's easy ask. Yeah, ones that you're the only ones you're gonna get, by not asking are the ones stars. And so I tried it. And during some of these webinars, and at the end, I said, Hey, you know, if you like this webinar, it's free. You know, it's a lot of work. I love doing I'm super excited for you all to be here. Could you just do me one favor? I'm sending you a link, could you follow this and give me a Google review? I got 55 star reviews.
Steve Fretzin 22:50
Now. That's it? That's great. Well, that's, that's and that's the social evidence that people are looking for to understand someone's value. And we do that for restaurants. We do that for products. I mean, that's, that's the that's what we're doing these days to make decisions. And, and people, but people are gonna need a little prompting, especially in the space you're in.
Christopher Melcher 23:12
Yeah, and I think the simple thing is, you just have to ask, and that's what's hard for us. Because we're embarrassed by that were like, Oh, I don't want to ask for work. That just sounds weird or pushy, or whatever. And obviously, you have to do it in a respectful way. But if you don't ask you will not receive.
Steve Fretzin 23:29
Yeah, and I, you know, I just in thinking about I love the stages and in the in the information that you're giving, and the secret sauce that you're sharing is really, really powerful. I just want to add to it, because the way that I've helped lawyers with speaking, has been to get them to think about it like a story, right? Every good story has a beginning, middle and an end. And I think you know, you're you're, you're right in the middle of that. And what I mean by beginning, middle and end is that before you know it to get us presentation, there's some planning things that you need to do. That could be the topic that could be the approach, how you're speaking or who you're speaking to, at the at the association, then there's the execution, which you mentioned. And that's how you're presenting how you're telling a story, engaging the audience. Maybe it's it's interactive versus a lecture where you're just talking for an hour straight, and they're just, you know, they're looking at their phones in 15 minutes. And then the last part is, how are you getting them to take action, right, so that call to action? That could be reviews that could be incorporating a survey, I've helped a lot of attorneys improve their speaking next steps by getting a survey filled out now and CLE. They do that, but maybe the moderator will allow you to add a couple of questions to their CLE form. And one of those questions could be, you know, do you want to learn more about my services do you want to get together and network together to possibly be of use to each other, whatever, you come up with that thing, but this is a way to not leave those open gaps, where people just leave and it's almost like it never happened, and we want to try to get things done. Set up in an unstructured in such a way where there's where there is going to be some actual business or traction that comes from it. And that's where I think attorneys that do speak get frustrated, because they might be doing it for five years without really seeing the, the traction of the of the action, or the business. And so what do you think about those those kinds of concepts?
Christopher Melcher 25:20
Well, let's see. Oh, absolutely. And that's, that's why working with a coach like yourself is so important. Because like, as a lawyer, we're we're busy. I mean, we're working on our cases we're managing, we got personnel issues, I mean, it is a lot to be a lawyer, and you know, all of these techniques, you know, the connections, like if there's needs to be a speaking coach, who is going to be so working with a coach is super important. And just listening to you speak, I may go back and maybe you know, work with you on this, because we need this tune up all the time, on that particular topic that you talked about on kind of tying the knot. Because now you've done you've picked the topic, you've got your date set, you you've prepared your PowerPoint, and you're about to execute it Well, there's things that we can do to enhance this, all this this project to actually turn into business. So what I've been doing now that I switched over to a lot of video learning is that I'll, I'll have my program ready to go. I'll go on to LinkedIn, I'll set up a LinkedIn event, I'll invite my contacts that I think are going to be interested in that it's really easy to start clicking the contacts, you then send them that invitation to say, Hey, I'm doing a program a webinar, it's free, date, time, place, I hope you can join me. A lot of them will respond back. Hey, Chris, you know, I haven't seen in a long time what's going on? Now you've started a conversation. Hey, I'm really glad that you're signed up for my program. I'm excited for you to be there. I'm glad to hear what's going on in your practice in life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now you execute give the program will you have a list of attendees, as they're signing on, you give shout outs? Hey, I see Don here is on this program I haven't seen in a long time. I'm so happy to be here. We had a case together. Now they're like wow, engagement during the program. When the program's done, you're like I use zoom webinar. it'll it'll automate. Or you can use Zapier. There's automation programs that will then send them a thank you, Hey, thanks for attending. Here's the programs, there's this CLE certificate, could you give me that five star review? If I'm really on my game, then I'm going to be messaging them back saying, Hey, thanks for the question that you asked during the program, it was super cool. are glad to see that you attended. I like to see a 10 more of these programs, if you find them interesting. Do you have other ideas? Would you like to co speak with me on something like that, we're now taking one program and using it to get real engagement with folks. Then reinforcing that you're speaking and an expert on this particular topic. That's gold, I did that post pandemic, I tried that I think I did four or six programs. Once a week in a row, I followed that program, I had to shut it down. Because I got so much business I can't even
Steve Fretzin 28:16
Wow, that's and that's amazing. And I think you know, the combination of the virtual meetings through zoom, etc in LinkedIn, and how that all works together in the live in the interaction, it's just a whole nother level of of capacity that you can get, put your name out there and reach people that maybe weren't reachable and in the past. So, you know, while there's a lot of negatives to not doing live presentations, there's also we have to look at the pros. And I think you've done that and explained that I think it's really impressive.
Christopher Melcher 28:46
Thanks. Yeah, I think at this, there's good stuff that came out of the pandemic and one is the video learning because doing the live presentations is a lot of work a lot of travel and and you're you're separated from the audience, and doing it on video, you can see who those people are, you can chat with them, you can give shout outs, and you can share it you can dice it up into smaller segments. It is it is the best way to go. And then but it's like I say you're not just pushing a video out there on the internet. You have to do it engagement with your audience. And so that's what I would be looking at and even if it's five or 10 people you don't need a big audience if you're in a small niche like I am, there's not a lot of people who can refer a billionaire to another lawyer. So I don't need to put my message out there to 1000s of lawyers I need to put that message out there to hundreds of lawyers or maybe 10s of lawyers.
Steve Fretzin 29:40
Yeah so you know again, you know quantities lovely to have but again, if you're in a niche or you're looking to meet get specific people to get to know then yeah, go for the quality and go for the tighter group. I think that's fine. I I know that I can get you know 5075 people on a, you know, a webinar but you know, I'm very happy with 10 If they're the right people, if they're highly ambitious and interested, then that's going to be better than 60 people who are, you know, just trying to get a free CLE out of it or just trying to, you know, just pick up a tip and move on, which is fine, I'm happy to, you know, provide those tips. But again, at the end of the day, we want to see if there are connections we can make that leads to a next step business or referral partners, something of value for everybody.
Christopher Melcher 30:23
Well, that's right. And I learned that I did a program and in Santa Barbara Bar Association drove up, there's very lovely, and I gave the presentation, and they had a lunch afterwards, and I'm getting my food. And somebody walks up to me and says, Yeah, it was a pretty good presentation. What do you think about it? And I'm like, Well, yeah, I was the speaker. And, and it was, like, I realized, like, how could this person not I mean, we just gave this program they didn't even know I was the presenter. And it's like, so how could I have failed so badly to engage with my audience. And so that was a ha moment, that it's like, I gotta, I got to even if there's 300 people in the room, I got to reach in there and like, connect with each one of those people and make them remember me.
Steve Fretzin 31:09
Yeah. And I think we have to continue to, you know, consider that speaking, and writing and networking and all of these things that that Christopher, you and I are talking about today, these are all learned skills, these are not things that you have to be born with a natural this are natural that, you know, you spent a little time with a coach with a mentor, with, with a really good book that hits the hits all the tactical elements, you're going to pick up things that are going to be beneficial. And the other thing I want to kind of end on is something you just said, which is so important. And that is, don't keep making the same mistakes, if you can identify what's working and what's not working, and make the fix on the fly, identify it and make the fix that's going to change the future, you're going to be in a better position next week or next month or next year than you just were. And people that don't make those changes. You know, they're the ones that have been speaking for five years, and still aren't getting any results out of it. Because they never improve. They just kept doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. And we know the definition of insanity. So so I think that's really where, where I think you've shined in this particular area. And I really appreciate you coming on the show. And in sharing that kind of insight really, very helpful.
Christopher Melcher 32:21
Yeah, Steve, I've gotten a lot of ideas from listening to your podcasts, you've a great guests and appreciate the work you're doing. And I encourage people to use your services to get that coaching that they need. And also if you want to reach out to me, if you're struggling as a lawyer, you you're just not working. You're trying everything you can and it's just not hitting the mark. Let me know that you listen to this program. I'm happy to give you give you some tips myself,
Steve Fretzin 32:51
And all of Christopher's information will be in the show notes. If you're interested in reaching out to him or reaching out to me or we're just you know, again, you know, we're going to be putting the transcription of this online. So you'll have all that to work off of. and Christopher just again, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise and your knowledge with my audience. Really top notch. Thanks, Steve. Yeah, much appreciated. And Hey, everybody, this was incredible. And I hope that again, this is just another opportunity to get one step closer to being that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care and be safe, everybody. Bye Bye.
Narrator 33:28
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes