In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Christina Martini discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Being excellent at what you do is just the beginning." — Christina Martini
Connect with Christina Martini:
Twitter: @TinaMartini10
Show: Paradigm Shift Podcast & Legal Face-Off
Website: MWE.com & www.paradigmshiftshow.com
LinkedIn: Christina Martini
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Christina Martini 0:00
But the empathy is really important. You have got to be able to put yourself in the other person's shoes and see what you look like from their perspective and see what the team is and see how they look from the other from the potential client or the clients perspective.
Narrator 0:23
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Ritson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:46
Well welcome everyone to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. If you're a first time listener, I'm a business development and marketing coach for attorneys on a national basis. been doing this for about 16 years and work exclusively with attorneys, helping them grow their business, their law practices through planning execution, follow through all the things they never taught in law school, and I am super thrilled to have a great guest today and Christina Martini. She's the head of IP for McDermott. And award winning attorney she hosts her own podcast paradigm shift can be found on w gn radios legal face off. Welcome, Tina.
Christina Martini 1:23
Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about a conversation.
Steve Fretzin 1:26
Yeah, we've got a lot to cover today. You know, obviously we're still in the in the middle of this Coronavirus scandal and you know, zombie apocalypse or whatever we want to call it, it's a train wreck wrapped up in a in a car crash is one way to put it up. But before we get into the into the meat and potatoes of what what we're hoping to share with our listeners today, maybe give a little bit more background on your background yourself your law practice how you help people maybe just give us a little Reader's Digest version.
Christina Martini 1:55
Sure. So I am a partner at the law firm of McDermott, will and Emery and I'm based in Chicago, and I've been practicing for about 26 years, my practice is focused on the non patent aspects of IP, which is a little bit of a strange way to describe what I do saying what I don't do. But intellectual property encompasses so many different facets. And my practice is primarily trademark copyright, unfair competition, online enforcement, domain name, advertising marketing type of issues, a lot of them intertwine with each other. And my practice is global in nature, meaning that I work with companies that are anywhere from startups to fortune 50 companies, some of whom are very small now, but ended up becoming bigger and I end up working with them on a multinational basis to help them do risk assessments on intellectual property and to protect it and enforce it as well as license it and handle other transactional aspects of how they work with their intellectual property. So it's a fun practice, I work with a bunch of different types of clients in terms of business sectors, have done a lot of work in the life sciences and biotech space. But I also work with companies and financial services, real estate, food and beverage consulting, you name it. So it's a really fun practice. And I head up the trademark practice at McDermott, that's a relatively new role for me, was involved very much in the hiring aspects of the organization up until the beginning of the year when I took on the new trademark role. So it's a lot of fun, really love working with the clients. I'm at a great firm and a very collaborative environment. And I feel very fortunate.
Steve Fretzin 3:46
Yeah, and I mean, there's some questions I want to ask you. I'll come back later regarding the recruiting aspect of your background and doing that for a number of firms, big firms you've worked with, but was there a point or experience in your life that directed you where you went, you know, personally or in business as it relates to the firm you're with and the work that you do?
Christina Martini 4:05
You know, it's a great question. I mean, I started, you know, just scrolling back to when I was in college, I really did not think I was going to be a lawyer. I was never really on my radar. But there were a couple of things that happened when I was an engineering school studying safety engineering, among other facets of what is called industrial engineering. So that really sort of set me on the path to go to law school. Being an engineer, intellectual property was really first and foremost on my mind as being an area that I was equipped to handle. along the way. I got interested in other areas like environmental and real estate, and actually the first firm that I started my career at one and was that for many years, I started as an as a real estate, an environmental lawyer. But you know, it's a very interesting question to ask at this time, because, you know, we're in a very disruptive period of time in terms of the world and in terms of business, I graduated into an environment like that. And so the upshot was there wasn't really a lot of work for real estate, environmental lawyers when I first came out of law school, and started my career at my old firm, and so ended up doing intellectual property in a somewhat indirect way, because I was one of very few engineers at my firm. And our practice was primarily a trademark practice at the time. So although I'm equipped to do patent law, I ended up doing more than non patent side of the practice, because that was really the engine driving the practice at the time. And so that really set my path to be a global intellectual property, soft IP lawyer, and had many years, you know, great years of my old firm, decided to come to McDermott a couple years ago, there was just a lot of really great synergies with the firm with people that I already knew who were there in the intellectual property space. The types of clients that McDermott works with, there are a number of clients that I was already representing, that McDermott works with, too. So there were a lot of really great synergies, and it's just a terrific brand, both in Chicago and beyond. We're doing a lot of really great things in terms of where the firm is right now. And its evolution, and so very excited to be at McDermott, it's hard to believe that it will be two years this summer. And it's a really great time in my career just in terms of where I am and what I hope to accomplish.
Steve Fretzin 6:24
And I know that part of what has made you so successful, and there's a number of things, obviously, but but the name of the show is be that lawyer, and I consider you one of the the people I'm naming in that, you know, tagline. And so there must have been something that inspired you to develop your own book of business or to realize that having your own clients was an important part of developing your practice. So can you talk to our audience a little bit about that?
Christina Martini 6:50
Sure. So I was very fortunate that as a baby lawyer, and growing up at my first firm, which was the last firm I was at, you know, just to set some context, I was at my first firm for 25 years. So really long time grew up there in many different ways, not just professionally, but personally as well. And I was very fortunate to work with a couple of lawyers that are really just internationally renowned in the space, and that I practice in. And what they taught me were a lot of things in terms of professional excellence, both substantively as well as a client service orientation. And so very early on, I was really on the firing line with clients. I mean, I would say, as a second year lawyer, when I really started focusing on intellectual property, they had me in touch with clients from the very beginning. And it was really at that point that I developed a passion for being on the front line with clients, not just being in the back room, doing work for clients, and then reporting up to a partner, or a more senior associate, and having those relationships and having those communications. So early in my career, it was really just a natural evolution, for me to in relatively short order, start leading client teams, and really being on the front end, not just of the communications, but the strategy. And I really developed a passion for it very early. And you know, realized, as a relatively Junior lawyer have like a mid to senior level associate, that that's really the recipe for developing a book of business. So it was my passion for it, that led to my continuing to do it and really trying to develop professional excellence around it. And then realizing, wow, this is really the driver for having and proliferating a practice. And so relatively early in my career, I would say, as a senior associate being considered for a partnership, I already had started developing my own clients, just because of relationships that I had had some folks ended up scattering to other organizations after I first started working with them. And then they'd call me and say, I really like working with you. Can you sign me up as a client. And so it was very organic. And I think that the real foundation is number one, being excellent at what you do develop the street krad. And also love being with clients figuratively, as well as literally.
Steve Fretzin 9:17
Yeah. And I think that you know, that the world has changed in the practice of law. And what makes a lawyer successful has changed in the last, you know, 20 years. So were, you know, it was just about being a great lawyer as sort of the most important thing, almost exclusively, to now being a great lawyer, but also being a developer of business. And can you talk to the importance of that, for maybe the service partners out there that that aren't in front of clients as often as they need to or aren't networking in getting into the business development side of things? What are you seeing that needs to happen today? I know you're you're very active, but there's a lot of people that maybe haven't been?
Christina Martini 9:56
Great question and I think we could spend hours talking about So I'll so I'll give a high level answer and we can pull apart the answer as much as you want. Um, you know, I'm an introvert by nature, I fake it. Well, a lot of people don't believe me when I say that, but I'm a pretty extreme introvert. That being said, I really try to do what I call the proverbial flipping the switch, when it comes to my client communications being out there, and I think a lot of lawyers can relate to that personality profile of being an introvert, I think the vast majority of lawyers do in some shape or form fit in that introvert bucket. And I think back when I first started practicing, it was okay to be that way. Because there was a lot more work, the environment that we were practicing in was very different. There was a lot more work to be had, the in house law departments had not yet evolved to what they are today in terms of sophistication and being capable of handling things. And it's just so important now for folks to realize, and I think everybody really has to have been, you know, hiding under a rock, to not realize that it's important to sort of put aside what your normal predilections are from a personality profile, and to be out there. And to make a name for yourself being excellent at what you do, is just the beginning. There are very few people these days who are practicing in an area and at firms where you can only rely on being an excellent practitioner in what you do, it's really important to step outside of your comfort zone, and to be out there and to figure out a way to develop your brand and your profile among clients and potential clients in such a way that you differentiate yourself. There are many fine lawyers that do what I do. But you know, there are many folks that in the full totality of who they are as people and professionals, I like to think that I stand apart from them, because of who I am for my clients and who I strive to be for potential clients, you know, and then there's ways that we can talk about the ways that people can differentiate themselves, but it's beyond just how good you are at what you do. It's about who you are to your clients. And there's so many different ways to differentiate yourself in terms of who you are to clients. And you have to figure out what resonates the best for you because you want to be authentic, and how you communicate who you are to clients and how you brand yourself.
Steve Fretzin 12:29
Yeah, I think I think authenticity is is always one of the most important things maybe now more than ever, I think that's something that's really come in its own in the last 15 years. The good news, I think, though, for introverts is in lawyers that either have no interest in doing business development, or introverted it's uncomfortable is that, you know, what I teach every day is there are plans and processes and languages that are learned. So where it used to just be the good old, the good old boy Rainmaker, you know, from 2530 years ago, we just go out and play golf and schmooze and have these big expensive dinners, and whatever. And that's how it was done. And today, that's, you know, completely off not completely off the table, but pretty much off the table. And so the lawyers that I'm dealing with, and interacting with, that are introverts that weren't able to figure it out on their own, are looking for proven processes and language, and what to say and what to do. And the reality is that all exists, it's just a matter of reading, studying, being coached being mentored, whatever it is that you can get your hands on to learn this stuff, so that it becomes not so scary and becomes a little more, you know, normal, and, and useful. And so that's what what's going on right now that I think has changed very much in the last maybe 15 years. But it doesn't make it easy. It's not saying it's easy, I'm just saying it's, you know, it's certainly a reality for people be able to achieve it much easier than then than it used to be. As far as learning it. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot of content out there.
Christina Martini 14:00
I completely agree. And I've worked with executive coaches over the years I've worked, I've worked with a couple of them, who have had very different approaches from each other. Right now I'm formally on hiatus when it comes to coaching. A lot of it just relates to some other things that I had to prioritize professionally in terms of client development and and other similar things. My intention is to get back to it, but I completely agree with you that it's one of those things about creating awareness of some proven methods, but it's also understanding that from one client to the next one target the next you have to really have a tailored authentic approach so that it really is authentic and you're building and proliferating relationships and realizing that every person is different that you're going to be targeting so you have to tweak your approach accordingly.
Steve Fretzin 14:57
Yeah, and I really think that people, lawyers, you know, feel that this is salesmanship or that they've got to go out and sell legal services. And I try to explain that that's really not what what I'm teaching are not what really they need to learn, it's going to be things like how to build stronger relationships, how to how to get into stronger and better questions, how to open up doors, how to, you know, lead conversations, I mean, it, you know, can relate a lot to, you know, to other skills that you would have as a lawyer, right depositions and trial work and things like that. So I feel like, you know, we just need to understand the clients at another level, and we need to be able to customize and use specific solutions and make sure that they believe that we're the right fit. And that's a lot of the skills that we're dealing with now not about how do we try to shove around, you know, peg in a square hole, or how do we convince people of things, that's a misnomer from 10 and 20 years ago, of how sales used to be done?
Christina Martini 15:53
You know, you make a great point. And I think it's something that's worth me putting sort of an exclamation point on, which is, you know, the round peg square hole phenomenon, and all the different ways that that manifests itself, I think one thing, that's critically important, when we're having a conversation like this, while we're really focusing on how to proliferate revenue, how to develop relationships, you know, net net, have more people that are in your network, and who you have a relationship with, that you can really convert into, and leverage into a relationship or like a kind of attorney client relationship, it's also just as important to understand when you should not be pushing for something like that. Everybody out there, you know, particularly the folks who are in private practice that are in our audience that are looking to continue to build on their book of business, just as importantly, as figuring out who a great target is, is realizing when it is not a good fit. So there are certain clients, for example, where it just does not make sense for me to be going after them to try to get them signed up as a client. I believe in having relationships, regardless of whether or not they lead to revenue, because that's what you know, being human is all about is having relationships with people. But you have to understand that sometimes it just does not make sense to go after a particular type of client or business. Because it just does not align with your law firms goals, and, you know, ways to price and what we call it McDermid power alley, is in terms of where your skill sets lie, there are certain times where just doesn't make sense to go after somebody.
Steve Fretzin 17:34
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's about the fit. And that's a word I use a lot, not just when I put my pants on. But it is about, you know, really the the ability to not only question a prospective client to understand their needs, right, but also to understand the fit into qualify, and that's, that's a big word that is maybe not known or not used enough. It used to be if you guys all are Glengarry Glen Ross fans, you know, coffee's for closers, it used to be about how do I close a client. And I've really found that one of the most important things I teach and that lawyers need to learn. It's not about closing skills and having the fancy pitch, right, going on a pitch meeting and closing the deal. I think that that's, that's, again, the bit old school, I'm talking about the word qualifying. Okay, are there you know, for example, issues and needs and compelling reasons for them to change? Are they committed to changing the lawyer, the law firm? are you dealing with the right person or right people? Do you understand their process for making a decision? And are they financially in a place to hire you, whether you're a big firm and you're at, you know, 700 plus an hour, or whether you know, they can even afford 250 an hour with a suburban attorney, that's, you know, that's just getting started up. And those qualifying questions and identifying that is the best time saving tool, because you can identify maybe in a half an hour or an hour, if this, you know, company or a person or whatever is a good fit or not. And that then saves you time because you don't have to chase after people anymore that maybe aren't a fit. If you've done the proper qualifying. Are you using that in the we're in the the people you're dealing with? You mean in terms of going through that process? Yeah, like it, you know, the questioning process to try to you you brought up the idea of of qualifying and just again, you know, saying everybody, not everybody's a fit. I'm just I'm sort of adding two cents and then putting it back to you.
Christina Martini 19:26
Yeah, no, I actually do see that. And I think it's one of those things where if you do it enough, you you mentioned several very important levers as part of the process or the thought, you know, like the thinking that you that goes behind assessing, right, assessing whether somebody is a good fit. It's it's not that different from dating, right? I mean, you have certain things that you've got in mind about whether you're a good fit with somebody and I think it's very similar when you are trying to figure out whether it's being a lawyer or actually frankly, in business, whether it makes sense to go into business with someone in any particular way. I'd say that, you know, when you do enough of this sort of assessment, it's almost second nature, like going through the different things that you just mentioned. And I think it's critically important and transparency is a word I don't think we've used yet. But I think it's critically important as part of the process. Because what you don't want is to go through all these things, have maybe some question marks in your mind about whether somebody is a good fit or not. Because if you have questions about it, you know, like, if there's certain levers that you're thinking, I'm not so sure that this is, you know, really going to be a great fit, I promise you more likely than not, the person that is on the other side of this analysis is probably thinking the same thing. And I encourage everybody to be as transparent as possible in the engagement process. So that you make sure that before you jump off the cliff, in a good way, right, but I mean, when you start a relationship, it's like, you know, on a wing and a prayer, sometimes to a certain extent, and you want to make sure that once that starts, that it goes smoothly, and if if there is any question, be transparent, and get to the bottom of it before you start.
Steve Fretzin 21:10
Well we're talking about some pretty, I think, some pretty great words, I mean, Authenticity, transparency, qualifying, you know, these are the things that that I think are just getting past a lot of people, they're just kind of going through the motions of being a lawyer and doing the work when in reality, you have to, you know, have a marketer's mindset, and you have to get out there. And if you're going to do that, then yeah, you need to, you need to have those, you know, authenticity and transparency as a part of how you approach things. Otherwise, people are going to read into you, they're going to see that you're just out for a buck, and it's not going to really play out very well, you might be, you know, wasting a lot of time or, or having getting a bad brand instead of a positive brand.
Christina Martini 21:50
Absolutely. And I would say that a big part of it. And a big part of, I think what may differentiate me a little bit more than others is in the process of all this, I always try to put myself in the potential clients shoes, or if it's an existing client, where I'm trying to sell additional services, I always try to put myself in the client's shoes. And think about it from their frame of reference, whether it's the experience of the assessment or the engagement process, you know, getting the engagement letter lined up or introducing the team, so to speak to them for whatever services they're looking to purchase. It's very important to have empathy. So that's another buzzword that I don't think we've used yet.
Steve Fretzin 22:31
Oh, that's a good one.
Christina Martini 22:32
But the empathy is really important, you have got to be able to put yourself in the other person's shoes, and see what you look like from their perspective and see what the team is and see how they look from a potential client or the clients perspective.
Steve Fretzin 22:51
And let me let me I don't want to go negative with this pandemic that we're dealing with right now. But I guess I would like to hear maybe one or two suggestions of what you're doing, or what you're suggesting to some of the lawyers that look up to you, at your firm to do now with this pandemic they're working from home. Marketing is is definitely more challenging. You're not going on lunches with people, and you're not doing some things that maybe would be good ideas to do, you know, short of the social distancing. Are there a few things that you'd recommend or that you're doing that you'd like to suggest for lawyers that they should be thinking about now?
Christina Martini 23:25
Sure. So I would say, you know, there are there are a number of things and we could probably have a COVID-19, you know, three days seminar about how it's impacting lawyers and what they should do in the wake of it. First of all, I think it's important to realize that everybody is in the same boat right now. Everybody's a little bewildered, everybody's wondering, where's this going? Some people, I think people feel pretty alone. Sometimes, especially when we're living in a world right now where the more you're distant from people, at least physically, the better. But that doesn't mean that you can't stay connected. And I think it's critically important, especially for the introverts out there, who in some ways probably view the ability to be by themselves as a great thing. It's pretty unhealthy. And this is a conversation I've actually had with a couple of clients that, you know, make sure that you maintain as much structure as you can during the course of your day. For some people I've talked to it's getting up at the same time, they ordinarily would during a normal workday, actually getting dressed as if you're going into the office, even if you're by yourself, or you know, you've got the dog with you or your spouse or your kids or whatever. It's important to maintain that structure, because that's going to enable you to continue to do the things that you ordinarily would have done under more normal circumstances. And that includes business development. And I would say that a big part of that is video conferencing. Whether it's zoom or any other type of video conferencing, you really need to stay connected with people and sending emails is great. Especially as people are just underwater right now and don't have the time to, to video conference, but it's really important to look for meaningful ways to stay connected to folks so that they remember you so that they know you care about them. And so you can hear what they need. Because there are certain folks right now who have been in the last two weeks in triage mode, where all they've been trying to do is help the C suite stay, keep the business afloat. But I think we're getting to a point now where there's a little bit of a normalization in terms of how how this whole new process of working remotely is. And I think that there's a real opportunity now for people to do outreach in a way that they would have under normal circumstances, but I'll be doing it by video conference, for example, it is really important. And if you especially if you find yourself not as busy as you were a few weeks ago, because of the nature of your practice, stay connected with people look for ways if you're in a general practice firm, look for ways to sell your partner services, that may be in an area right now where your client has needs, but do not let yourself fall into this sort of routine of, you know, watching a movie rather than, you know, working with the phones and working the video conferencing.
Steve Fretzin 26:17
Yeah, and again, there's a lot of tools out there for attorneys that want to learn business development, or execute on business development of video conferencing, obviously, is a clear one, getting out and doing webinars on topics that are relevant, helping maybe, you know, bring some of your clients to your other partners, for some webinars or for some conferences, I hear on a regular basis, I don't have time to write well, you have time to write now. So you know, try to get an article published, try to write for your blog, try to do more social media posting. And so there's just there's, this is like a good time for people to develop the brand that they never had the chance to build before. So while you Yes, you have to maintain clients and try to cross market, I think it's also an opportunity for people to step up, maybe more than they have in the past to, you know, get their name out there and connect with people and, and be relevant.
Christina Martini 27:15
I completely agree. And in the process of doing this, it's really important to assess the landscape, so to speak. So whether it's figuring out what you're going to post on social media, obviously, we all want to promote our own firms. That being said, be strategic about it, particularly when you're doing personalized outreach to your clients. There was an article that I had read, and I think there have been a few of them since then it was last week, where there was some discussion about in house lawyers having COVID-19 thought leadership fatigue. So I think that you know, you need to think about what is everybody else doing? How do you differentiate your message so that your message and what you're trying to accomplish doesn't get lost as noise to your target audience?
Steve Fretzin 28:08
Yeah, that's really great. So I have a sort of a final segment I like to go through called, they never taught me this in law school. And from a law practice growth perspective, is there one thing you'd like to share kind of as we wrap this up for lawyers that you wish you had learned in law school that would have that would have helped you even more than then than law school without it.
Christina Martini 28:30
The importance of relationships, and meeting and the fact that it's never too early to start developing a robust network of friends, colleagues, contacts, clients, potential clients, because we, you know, we all grew, the people in our generation all grew up, thinking that if you're an excellent lawyer, that's really all you need. That's the ticket to success. And I think, again, you need to sort of go against the grain, so to speak, of, you know, just sort of having tunnel vision and just focusing on that, and really understand that you need a great network and start working on that early. I think it's also critically important and that this was something that the nomenclature didn't exist at the time I was in law school, this whole notion of client service, emotional intelligence, Daniel Goleman, really made that more of a mainstream vernacular. When he wrote his book in the I think it was in the mid to late 90s. So that's just critically important as well. It is one of the most meaningful differentiators you can have is to be emotionally savvy, have a high EQ and realize what that looks like in the context of working with clients. It's really about how do you become their trusted advisor. It means something different from one client and one potential client to the next. And that is really what clients will remember you for. And what will keep them coming back is knowing that you care about their, their bucket of worries, concerns, Things to Do you care about it just as much as they do, if not more.
Steve Fretzin 30:17
Yeah, and again, just to reiterate, if it isn't taught in law school, then it's not that you have no options to learn it, it's just you're going to have to really step up and, you know, read and listen and get mentorship and figure out ways to, to, to build those relationships or learn how to build those relationships, if that's not your skill, and understand that that's going to be a big part of how you get business in the future. The person sitting next to you in class in law school, is going to end up in 10 years being a GC at a major corporation. And, you know, recognizing that that may happen you need to stay in touch and and build a relationship so that that can realize itself down the road. So these are these are these are the soft skills that that I think some law schools are coming around to but maybe not as quickly as they need. But you know, really great insights on that teen I really appreciate it anything specific you'd like to promote or or or to let people know how to get in touch with you.
Christina Martini 31:13
Sure. So I am a practicing attorney at McDermott, if you'd like to reach me, m w. e comm is our website, and you can find me and my CV there. Also tune into my podcast. I've got a couple of them. Actually, paradigm shift is one that you and I have collaborated on together, Steve and you can find my podcasts at paradigmshiftshow.com. And I also am a co host on the wgn radio legal podcast legal face off with my co host Rich Lenkoff. And you can find us on the w gn radio website. And we do that a couple times a month.
Steve Fretzin 31:57
really terrific. So Tina, thank you so much. I really appreciate you spending some time with me and with my audience, for the audience. Thank you for listening. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways things to really think about. And that's helping you to get one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized and a skilled Rainmaker, much like Tina. And so thanks again for being on the show. Tina, I really enjoy talking with you. As always.
Christina Martini 32:21
Thank you so much. It was so much fun, and I look forward to next time.
Steve Fretzin 32:24
Awesome. Awesome. All right, everybody, take care and stay safe.
Narrator 32:32
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.