In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chris White discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Always think about where you want your career to go. Even if you're happy at your current firm or company, always think about the next steps, always keep that resume somewhat close at hand. You never know and the more thought you put into it on an ongoing basis, the more prepared you are if anything should go wrong and the happier you'll be in your career, because you're going to have a better sense of control going forward." — Chris White
Connect with Chris White:
Website: GuntherGroup.com & ChicagoBeerExperience.com
LinkedIn: Christopher Group
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Chris White 0:00
Always think about where you want your career to go. Even if you're happy at your current firm or company and I hope you are, always think about, you know, the next steps, always keep that resume somewhat close at hand, just because you never know and the more thought you put into it and on an ongoing basis, the more prepared you are for if anything should go wrong and and also, the happier I think you'll be in your career, because you're going to have a better sense of control going forward.
Narrator 0:36
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin 0:59
Well, hello there, everybody, and thanks for being here on my show, be that lawyer. Today I'm here with a friend of mine and a great guy, Chris white. Chris is a Michigan grad and former attorney who's passionate about helping attorneys find their next big gig. He is a legal recruiter with the Gunther group. Chris, how you doing today?
Chris White 1:17
Doing well doing well. Staying warm. How about you?
Steve Fretzin 1:21
Doing very well, doing very well. Everyone in my world is sick except me right now. So I don't know if that's good or bad. But But I feel great. So that's, that's something the most important part, you know, most important? Yeah. Yeah, selfishly, you know, it's all about me. Anyway, listen, it's great to have you and I thought is a fun way to kind of get things started, you know, I'd love to have you give a little bit of background on yourself, and what led up to your current role. And then I'd also like you to add one thing that's kind of fun and interesting about yourself, and I know what it is, but I'd like you to share it. With our with our listening audience.
Chris White 1:59
Sure thing. And let me start off by just saying, you know, thank you so much for having me on your podcast, it's been really great to kind of get to know you professionally. And also personally as well. And I appreciate it, I will get started, I kind of have a weird journey, which also I think contains maybe the fun fact you were thinking of I was an attorney graduated in 2007. from Michigan, go blue, the University of Michigan, and took a job at a large law firm here in Chicago was a corporate securities attorney. And unfortunately, the timing was a little poor. Because then the great recession hit, I was a junior attorney, I barely knew where the bathroom was. And so when the the act started to fall, you know, a lot of people were laid off, including an illegal industry and, and my number was was one of those. So I was laid off in 2010. And kind of the interesting fact, I have a very weird journey, I took a part time job as a food tour guide, and loved it. You lead people around Chicago, talk about Chicago history, talk about how food plays a role in that history. Eat your way through the city, it's a lot of fun shout out to Chicago food planet, highly recommend these tours. After about a year of that, I decided to spin off with the permission of the owner, who's now a very good friend of mine, and start my own beer tour company, craft beer kind of has been all the rage. And that was kind of at the really early stages here in Chicago for this last most recent boom. And so lead tours around Chicago, three hours taste a bunch of craft beer, Chicago history, it is a lot of fun, it doesn't pay all of the bills, as you might expect. So I have been kind of practice law for a couple more years. After some time off, I found out I didn't really liked the practice of law left and then what is my true passion, and kind of really did a lot of brainstorming and everything and, and ended up in the HR and recruiting space. And so now I'm able to kind of basically use my law degree in a different way, I have my toe in the legal market, and I'm able to help others kind of achieve career success if they're looking to make a move in whatever way I can.
Steve Fretzin 4:15
Got it. So your passion for you know, wanting to get involved in law and then getting back into it. But now in a capacity of helping others find their next gig or find their you know, their next best place to work, you know, is is what you're up to and what what types of attorneys are you really focused on who who's kind of your target that you're looking to meet and work with?
Chris White 4:37
Sure. So from kind of a legal recruiting standpoint, there's kind of two big chunks that we focus on. One is the Associate market. And so a lot of times for us, that's really law firms. There's also in house company placements as well which we occasionally work on. But basically these firms, what happens people Move away, people quit, people move to other firms. And they need to kind of fill the ranks at usually a particular level of experience, a lot of times, that's the middle level space. So somewhere between three and six years of experience that can vary. Sometimes people need really Junior people, people need really senior people. But that's, that's one market. And then the other market is at the partner level, and particularly partners with a particular level of business, a lot of times, it's not just the experience that firms are requiring, but it's also business clients that they also would like as well.
Steve Fretzin 5:36
And what are what are some additional kind of reasons why a lawyer would want to leave, for example, one firm and go to another.
Chris White 5:43
There, there are so many different reasons, and it really becomes really, really personal, I will rattle off some common ones that we see, compensation is certainly one hours. So sometimes we see, particularly the associate level, attorneys want to either trade up, if you will, to a higher compensation position. A lot of times these tend to be the larger, really big mega firms, or sometimes they want to trade down, which is they might want to go for my firm, those, those firms don't just have high comp for fun. They also demand a lot of time, some really a lot of time. So sometimes attorneys say you know what, I've had enough of that lifestyle, I'm willing to take less compensation for kind of a more lifestyle type of practice. But it can be really personal beyond that they don't like their particular practice group, what area they're practicing in, they don't like their particular boss, you know, a lot of times you're working for one or few partners. And that might, you know, really impact things in a negative way or positive way. But if they want to move, usually it's obviously negative. And then it could be other reasons to geographic reasons. A lot of times people want to change from a law firm to in house, that's also to a company that's a lot of times lifestyle oriented as well.
Steve Fretzin 7:03
Gotcha, gotcha. And so you know, as a, you know, lawyer, Coach, you know, as my profession, I run across all these scenarios, because in some instances, they're super happy. And they just want to build a book of business so that they can be even happier and have more freedom and in security and in everything that goes with having a book of business. In other instances, they're telling me Hey, you know, I'm not really able to go where I want to go without having a book of business. And without growing my individual client base and law practice. Can you speak to the importance of that, and what you've seen as it relates to your your position as a legal recruiter?
Chris White 7:41
Absolutely. And I should say, you know, that your previous question, I was just realizing that's really kind of the, the reasons why people want to move at the associate level, at the partner level, the reasons that typically will change. And you just touched on on, you know, major ones, which is, I would say, most of the time partners feel like their particular firm is not really supporting their practice. And so, you know, in whatever way that may be, and they want to move to find a more supportive environment, it's extremely important to have a book of business, it's very difficult for us to place partners, without books, even if they're the, you know, go to the top law schools, and have worked at the top firm, because at the partner level, you're basically the economics of a law firm, you really need to kind of support at least part of your own way, depending on the firm. I mean, I can, you know, speak in more detail to that and what we see. But it's extremely important. It's rare, where we have positions where a book of business would not be required, compared to those that do.
Steve Fretzin 8:50
And why are we so this is this is personal to me. But why does it seem like there's a very small percentage of lawyers that really understand that point and how important it is to have their own book of business as a relates to their career independence, job security, etc. Where it feels like maybe 10 or 20%, understand and are taking action on it. And 80% are just sort of whether they're worker bees. And again, I get that not everybody's going to be a big shot Rainmaker. But it seems like they're really sort of hiding from the reality that their industry has, you know, turned a corner since the recession. And why do you think that there are so many that are attorneys that are not really thinking strategically about that type of growth?
Chris White 9:36
Sure, I think it is very, is very situational, but I know a lot of the larger firms, they don't necessarily really want you focusing on your book of business, they want you to Bill hours, and that's that's the business model and, and I've talked to partners or associates it larger firms where they'll even be able to try to bring in a client That's maybe you know, could be millions of dollars, and the firm turns them away because they're not big enough, and the conflict concerns and other things. So I think if the larger firms, it's really not necessarily a focus again, it varies on the firm. And some, some are much different in their approach. And then the other reason is, I think it's really difficult. I always think of partners who are able to build their books, if you're trying to, as a younger attorney, really develop an expertise in a very difficult field. In the legal field. These are often very, very technical or nuanced questions that ever changing fields. And then to kind of add on developing business on top of that, I think, is very intimidating.
Steve Fretzin 10:44
You know, in a recent ABA journal article was mainly talking about women and minorities, when you have a successful hire, that the cost of losing a successful hire, and you named all the causes, you know, culturally, or a lack of support or compensation or whatever, that the cost to a firm could be upwards of $2 million to lose someone like that. And I imagine if you have a Rainmaker bringing in a few million, or has a few million dollar clients, and, and they leave and go off on their own, or they go to a different firm, it can really, you know, not only impact the firm that they were, that they were with, but also, you know, the future dollars, right. And that has to be replaced somehow, you know, bringing people in through recruiting. So what are you seeing is it relates to, you know, kind of the cost of replacement, because obviously, you work for a fee, and, and some people would say, well, that's a lot of money. Well, it isn't, if you look at what some of the other costs are hard and soft cost. Can you speak to that?
Chris White 11:43
Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're spot on, you know, the firm, when you look at it from an economic perspective, and how much, you know, attorneys are compensated when you're a law firm, and that is your largest expense, you know, that's your product, your product is the attorneys that are working with you. And it's also one of those things to where expertise is really hard to obtain overnight. So the more experience you have, the more valuable you can become. And that's not something that you can just eat first would love to home grow that and you can to a certain extent, but when you lose a chunk, it can be really, really difficult to replace. So I mean, I'm obviously biased. But I think our services is absolutely worth it if you need to fill those types of holes in your places.
Steve Fretzin 12:33
Gotcha. Gotcha. And so what are what are some things that you're seeing law firms do to try to whether it's improve their culture, or to try to make the workplace a better environment to make sure they retain if we're kind of moving our conversation a little to, you know, improving the culture of a law firm? Obviously, you represent firms where, you know, the culture is going to be significantly better than maybe where someone's coming from, you know, what are you seeing as far as what some law firms are doing to make improvements to keep people in retain?
Chris White 13:04
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that kind of, is right off the top of my head, because you mentioned kind of women and minorities, I know that firms the last three years, have really been kind of really trying to recruit women and minorities. And there's something called the Mansfield rule that they're instituting, which has particular targets, I think that kind of related to that is really trying to improve and make sure, you know, family planning, making sure that they have family leave policies that are that are more friendly to, you know, it particularly attracting female candidates, but also even, you know, male leave as well. So these kind of perks that are designed with that I think firms are trying to accommodate culturally, it can be difficult because these firms have global clients that expect people on the clock 24 seven, so I think firms continue to struggle with the lifestyle demands, that can be a real issue, but are are trying, compensation is another thing, the economy, the recession is long over at this point. And we've noticed compensation really scale up not just with the kind of newest 2018 bump on the market level first which was which is very high, the curve AF Milbank scale, but also that's trickled down now. So that firms that were paying lower or really even, you know, mid market and lower market firms, a smaller firms a lot of times are having to increase their compensation. And let's just be honest, that that helps retain that helps people stay and be happy in their current firms.
Steve Fretzin 14:46
Is there any Is there any chatter about obviously there's a lot of craziness going on politically, economically, whether it's China, whether it's, you know, the President, whatever it might be that there's A pending recession and there's so much money being spent on compensation and growth. And, and I mean, as you see, it's just, it's just everything's going so well. And I also find that when that's going on, you know, people do sort of, you know, rest, they, they they're at ease. And my concern is is that you know that there's another potential recession and might be smaller, certainly smaller than the last one. But is that something that you're hearing out there that people should be concerned about? or thinking about?
Chris White 15:28
You know, that's that that's the million dollar question, isn't it? I, I've been hearing rumors of a recession, whether in the legal market, or just in general, for I would say, probably two years now, maybe more, it just hasn't happened. I think everybody's kind of, at this point, waiting for it to happen. And it hasn't. So, you know, despite the kind of turmoil that you see, on a day to day political and economic news level, things are still still, you know, humming along, that can change anytime. And so I do think people need to be prepared and know that things do change overnight. I mean, I can say that from personal experience, having been impacted in the last session, everything was, was going great until it isn't,
Steve Fretzin 16:16
you know, something that I I'd like to also chat with you about sort of turning or changing gears a little bit is sort of like what's under the hood, as it relates to a legal recruiters day or how you work and interact with, I would say, maybe more of like, a candidate than a firm, because I'm my assumption is that that's where you spend the majority of your time is working with the candidates, you know, could you just maybe take a few minutes and share, like, what do you do every day? And how are you helping? You know, and I know, just in the last year, you helped a couple of my, you know, clients, you know, find better gigs that, you know, they're just thrilled with, and they loved you, and they love the experience. And so sharing that kind of information with my audience, you know, there might be someone out there that's thinking, you know, you know, maybe this is someone that can help me because I've got, you know, a crazy boss, or I've got a bad culture, or my compensation is way lower than it used to be.
Chris White 17:11
Yeah, no, I happy to kind of detail. Your question first reminded me of the office space, what exactly do you do here?
Steve Fretzin 17:19
And how many bosses do you have?
Chris White 17:21
Right, exactly. So, you know, from a candidate perspective, I'll just kind of take it from the start, you know, we're introduced to candidates in various levels. And then you know, what my first kind of what I usually do is just have a quick phone call, just to kind of gather information starts developing that relationship, and understand what they're seeking where they're at in the process. It's much more like an art form, I would say, although we have lists and checklists and boxes that we go through. But everything is very individual when it comes to legal recruiting. And so once we kind of have that information, a lot of times I set up in person meetings where we can further dive down, you mentioned Gunther group, but my boss and the owner of this has been at it for over 20 years, his art Gunther who's great, and we kind of share a brain. So he's often part to he'll participate in the meeting or in we'll chat things through, then we go based on those needs, will develop particular firms that we know are either seeking in that space, or would be open to hearing from us about a particular candidate, kind of an opportunistic hire, we do resume tweaks and resumes, I'm of the opinion that they can always be improved. If they're going to all boys, almost all, there's very rare time when we wouldn't have any comments to resume. So we go through that, we kind of develop a third party cover note that summarizes their particular experience as it relates to particular positions, and then send that and we have contacts at firms and companies where we send that information in. And we'll kind of manage the process after that. So it might be interview prep, a lot of times, it's just refreshing to kind of go through that, then we will manage kind of scheduling and all the kind of little tedious stuff that is around the interview process. And then hopefully manage kind of that process as it extends to an offer. And there might be multiple offers with multiple firms. And that can get a little delicate and just kind of managing the process. When do I check in with firms, that sort of thing. We have that expertise and are able to kind of manage it. And, you know, it seems like it would be a straightforward thing. But, you know, something almost always goes, quote unquote, wrong. But even if in sometimes we've seen it, sometimes we haven't, but we have the expertise to be able to kind of approach a situation in the right way to make sure that the candidate is taken care of in you know, in a professional manner.
Steve Fretzin 19:52
Gotcha. Gotcha. So yeah, obviously a lot that goes into it and you know, you're earning that fee. It's not it's not a fee for a fee. Right.
Chris White 20:02
Yeah, yeah, I would say it, it definitely becomes a, I wouldn't say this from I basically, in my mind, I try to ignore the fee, as you know, it's, you do a service and the fee tends to come type of thing because it is, I feel for my candidates, I was in that their shoes at particular points in my career. So, and it can be stressful, there can be situations that come up, and, and so it can be pretty wild. But we, I'm very confident in kind of how we approach those problems.
Steve Fretzin 20:35
And of course, the ironic thing of it all is that, you know, I charge, you know, pretty good fees for what I do helping attorneys grow their books of business and make more money and, you know, have a better life, you're helping them find a new job that's going to be, you know, instrumental to their family into their future and everything else, then the law firms that take care of us, you know, they charge fees, you know, 350 $1,000 now, or they should be the last ones complaining about anyone else's fees, being if we're being if we're being honest about it, but, you know, they're their services are, you know, highly important and highly critical to the success of their clients. And I think ours are as well. So I think we're all in the same, we're all in the same, you know, kind of boat together. So, right, right. Absolutely. And I guess, you know, one or two other questions I have for you is, you know, if there was something that you could tell, you know, the majority of my audience is, you know, lawyers, right. I mean, that's, that's who's listening to this show? And that's, that's kind of paying attention to what you know, what I'm up to? And is there something that you'd like to tell my audience that they should know, that's truly critical to like, their success as a lawyer or being someone that a recruiter would want to talk to? Or? Or if they ever had a situation that they'd be more replaceable?
Chris White 21:50
You know, that is? That is a great question. One, I'm gonna plug you because I've been to a couple of your classes, you know, listen to Steve, he does great work. And I think it's never too early to have an eye toward client development. And, and starting to understand the business development process of me being a lawyer, you have so much more control when you have clients than when you don't. And that's true, even if you're a Harvard that works at Kirkland, you know, it just it Harvard Graduate that works at Kirkland, you just start on that, start on that early and really grasp that you will just have much more control over your career. And then, you know, beyond that, I would say, always think about where you want your career to go. Even if you're happy at your current firm, or company, and I hope you are always think about, you know, the next steps, always keep that resume somewhat close at hand. And just because you never know. And the more thought you put into it in an ongoing basis, the more prepared you are for if anything should go wrong. And also, the happier I think you'll be in your career, because you're going to have a better sense of control going forward.
Steve Fretzin 23:08
Yeah, and it's interesting, because I run into all the situations and scenarios like you do. And I've got, you know, a 60 year old guy who's, you know, the spicket has been turned off as it relates to business being fed to him. And he's like, no, I better now I gotta go get my own clients, and it's, you know, it's 60 years old, trying to now, you know, build, when it probably should have been done it, you know, 35 and 40. And then you've got people that are in their 30s, that are saying, you know, now's the best time and in there, you know, and they're saying, you know, I want to make equity by the time I'm 40 or 45. And, and they have the ability to do it, if they're at a firm that allows for that, right, there might be a firm that they'll never make equity, because it's just not enough in the in the cards. So looking to the future on a number of levels, you know, whether you're 40 or 60, you know, you've got to kind of look, you know, ahead and see, you know, what you have in front of you and make some make some tough decisions.
Chris White 24:01
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's absolutely right. And it's easy to get caught flat footed. And to be honest, it's, it's hard to sell, right? Like, it's not easy for most people, it's hard. But once you start developing that skill set, it becomes a lot easier. So I in in particular, if you want to make it, you know, in be at a firm for the long term, having that book is just going to make it a lot more fun for you to be honest.
Steve Fretzin 24:29
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and and also to be portable, and again, you know, to have that security, that if there's a recession or downturn that you're able to, you know, take your clients and go where you want to go or start your own thing or, you know, just to make sure that you're you're in a good position, you know, to advance I think that's really what it's about. And I think people just have to really have their antennas up on that. So let me ask you this question. I'll kind of wrap up with this. Are there specific things that you'd like to say as far as a point where someone should identify that they need you and that they should you know that they should be reaching out to you. And maybe what are some of the triggers that set off? Hey, I better talk to Chris.
Chris White 25:10
Yeah, absolutely, I think a couple things. One is, you know, you can always reach out to me, in a, I'm not a hard sell in terms of if a candidate reaches out to me and says, Hey, you know, I'm not really sure, I'd like to just kind of get a view of the market. One of the values, I think the highest values we supply as legal recruiters is, I'm constantly looking at the market, particularly at the associate level, but also at the partner level as well. The reason I say associate level is because partners with business are always in demand. Depending on what level of business you have, so so that, you know, the markets always hot, if you depending on what level of business you have, for associates, we're constantly keeping tabs on what firms are looking. So you can come to us and say, Hey, you know, I'm not really sure. But I'd really like to just kind of get a view of the market, I'd be happy to share that without any, you know, anything more than that, if they determine that you know, what, I'm actually happy where I am. But I'm glad I have that info.
Steve Fretzin 26:11
But that's important to state because I have heard from a number of lawyers that they're getting hounded by recruiters and they they're high pressure. And they're, you know, they're they're trying to move them because that's how they make a buck. And in reality, what you really want is someone that's going to be consultative someone that's going to do what's in in is a lawyer, their best interest there, you know, what's best for them, not what makes money. And the fact is, if there's a fit, and there's a reason to leave, or there's a reason to change, you know, then it's finding the best recruiter to help you with that. But not one that's just going to be looking at you as a meal ticket or as a as $1 sign versus a human being, and someone that's really looking for the best fit. And I think that's what I've seen with you. And art has been the humanity that you guys put into what you do, and how you know how lawyers can really feel comfortable. That's the feedback I get from the people I refer to you. I mean, they they come back to me and say, What a great experience, it was.
Chris White 27:05
Great, no, I'm very happy to hear that. And I think that we take the long game, the long term view, which is, you know, if I move somebody, just because I'm like, you got to get out of there, and I tried to mislead them and move them, then they're not necessarily going to be happy. And that bothers me from a personal level. But also, they're not going to recommend me they're not going to use me ever again. It's It's uh, you know, if you take a long term view, I'd much rather wait. Yeah, to be honest with you, a lot of people, I hope they don't have to move. I want people to be happy where they are, that's a good thing for the world. But if people do need to move, I'd rather do it the right way. And and then, you know, and help people that way, then then kind of taking the short or midterm view and not doing, you know, being misleading or applying too much pressure. Yeah, I mean, I view and I think our chairs that as well.
Steve Fretzin 27:56
And yeah, if I had the experience of I had met with Chris gave me some great information, I understand that you know, what my value is in the marketplace. You know, there was no real urgency for me to move, I've got a good thing where I am. And now I can think about people that you know, I'm talking to that may need to move with urgency. And now I feel comfortable that I know someone that I can trust that has the other person, the lawyers best interests at heart. And that's really going to be the most important thing in referring someone like you. So to that end, Chris, I would like you to share you know, either your website, your email, your phone number information that people can reach you if they want to, you know, reach out to you for specifically for their own needs. Or, again, just to touch base with someone that has their finger on the pulse of the market.
Chris White 28:40
Yeah, absolutely. You can find us at Gunther group comm that is our recruiting website and my bio is on there. And you can find me the Ryan Gosling looking guide now it's and then you can also find me on LinkedIn under Christopher white, there's a lot of them. So that website might be he's here. But I'm always happy to have a chat to talk to people and do my best to help in any way I can.
Steve Fretzin 29:06
And if I want to meet you as a recruiter, but I also want to taste some of the best beers in Chicago. What do I do then?
Chris White 29:13
That is to cago beer experience calm thing. Okay. www Chicago beer experience calm three hour tours. You we have three different neighborhoods currently, you're gonna learn Chicago history, taste a bunch of locally brewed beer, and have a great time. Awesome. Well
Steve Fretzin 29:33
Chris, I want to thank you I really appreciate your openness in in discussion with me on this particular subject and you know, for all my listeners out there, hope you enjoy today's show, and that you're one step closer to being that lawyer confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Thanks, everybody take care.
Narrator 29:55
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice, visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.