In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Weinthal discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"No one particular type of networking or business development is perfect for everyone. Each person that decides they're going to have their own book of business and their own clients that's going to make them valuable to their organization needs to find the right way to network, or the right kind of networking, for them. That leads to optimal results." — Brian Weinthal
Connect with Brian Weinthal:
Website: BurkeLaw.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brianweinthal
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Brian Weinthal 0:00
I'm sure you hear all the time from people who say to you, I don't get it, you know, I networked for 400 hours last year, and I only got X amount of money in the traditional way of thinking for most lawyers, the answer to that is, well, you should put 800 hours in next year, because then you're really gonna get the results you want. It's almost this illusion of the more I put in, the more I should get out.
Narrator 0:28
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:50
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. My name is Steve Fretzin. And I hope everybody's doing well. A couple of updates during the corona crisis. Number one is that I'm now celebrating five years as a writer for The Chicago daily level attend, I want to give some kudos to them. And also wanted to let you know that I've got a variety of programs available for lawyers at every stage of their career. If you're looking to start building a book of business, I've got a program that might be a good fit. Also for rainmakers above a million dollars in originated book, I have a program called the rainmakers Roundtable. And that is a peer advisory group specifically for high performing attorneys. If that's something that you have interest in or want to hear more about, just email me at Steve at frets and calm. You can also connect with me through LinkedIn, or my website frets and calm. And that's enough about that. My guest today is Brian Weinthal, who's a partner at Burke, Warren, MacKay & Serritella. He's an amazing attorney and business developer. And Brian, how are you?
Brian Weinthal 1:55
I'm great, Steve, thank you so much for having me. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time. And I also know that a lot of my colleagues in the bar, own much of their success in the business development side to you. So it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Steve Fretzin 2:09
Wow, that's wonderful to hear like to know I'm doing something right occasionally. But obviously, I didn't do justice to your bio. So you want to give a little bit more about your background and a little bit about your practice. And then of course, how you help people.
Brian Weinthal 2:25
Sure, of course, getting down to brass tacks. I'm a labor and employment lawyer, I primarily work on the management side. So typically representing companies in various different types of Labor and Employment claims. My bread and butter tends to be the defensive employment related lawsuits, discrimination, retaliation, whistleblowing, hostile work, environment, things of that nature. But I also do a fair amount of work with non compete covenants, and other novel areas of law, like micpa claims, for example, biometric information, Privacy Act claims and things of that nature. I've been with Bert Ward, my new firm now for a little over a year. Prior to that I had been with an am law 200 firm, for roughly about six years. Prior to that with a smaller firm on the plaintiff side. And just before that started my legal life as a lieutenant commander with the United States Navy jag Corps. So I've been very blessed to look at all sides of the issue. I think it gives me some unique perspective when I walk into the courtroom. And ultimately, I think it's given me some good perspective as well for how to form relationships that lead to meaningful business development.
Steve Fretzin 3:35
Got a terrific and so I know, you've been developing business, when did you sort of figure out that that was an important thing to to do as a career choice in law.
Brian Weinthal 3:46
Much like any person that has ever made partner at a law firm, Steve, the day I made partner, and they told me, well, you realize that this job isn't really a legal job, right? It's a sales job. You know, I think in the legal profession, we do a great disservice to our younger lawyers, by not telling them from day one of their associates careers that this is, in fact, a sales and relationship job. So for me, I put in the 1000s of hours it took to get myself to that partner point. And then suddenly, like many lawyers said, Wait, I better figure out how to make business come in the door. That to me was really the starting point of this, this journey that I'm on. And you know, I, I say, a bit tongue in cheek that we do a disservice to younger lawyers, but the reality is getting good at networking and business development truly is a lifetime skill. I say the same thing about trial work. You can spend your entire life getting good at the courtroom, and you still won't be as good as you could be if you had more time to do it. Same thing with business development. It's a constant constant process of learning and readjusting. To do it in a different way, a better way to make sure you get better results. So ultimately, the point I made partner was really the starting point for me. In that regard, and now it's been Geez, I'm trying to remember the the point of partnership we're getting on near a decade now I think I'm seven or eight years into this process as a partner.
Steve Fretzin 5:10
Got it, got it. And is there either a particular area of business development or elements of it that you really enjoy that you've sort of like you've gotten through the minutiae of of having to do it, you kind of got over that head trash. And now it's about Okay, is there are there elements of it that I can enjoy? And, you know, that's helping me continue to grow?
Brian Weinthal 5:30
Yeah, there are definitely elements of it. I love. I think that the big secrets, I think the big, the big takeaway that everybody listening needs to keep in mind is, no, one particular type of networking or business development is perfect for everyone. Each person that decides they're going to have their own book of business and their own clients, that's going to make them valuable to their organization, needs to find the right way to network with the right kind of networking for them. That leads the optimal results. I'm sure you have a lot of clients, Steve that say to you, I'm just not good in a big room, I can't just walk in and talk to people and generate business. Or alternatively, you have people who say, you know, my personality is such that I'm not great on the one on one, I'm not super on doing the sit down and connection thing. Everybody who wants their own book of business has to figure out the right way for them. That works best. And the unique truth here is, it's going to be different for everybody, finding what works best and optimally for you is really the key.
Steve Fretzin 6:36
And one of the things that I try to do as a coach sitting down with a new attorney is try to identify the areas of comfort in the areas of discomfort as it relates to business development. Because in some cases, to your point, Brian, you know, there are areas that can just be avoided, because they're they're either unnecessary, or there are other ways to do it. And then in other circumstances, they might want to avoid something that is sort of the easiest route to getting to their goal, in which case, it's more like something that we just have to fix or we have to talk through and get them comfortable with it. Because it may not start off comfortable. But the goal might be in six months, that it becomes sort of the thing they need to do and become good at doing. Have you found that as well that you have been able to sort of maneuver yourself to get comfortable with certain things
Brian Weinthal 7:23
I have. And I think that when it comes down to building business, you need to figure out like, like any good skill in life, you need to figure out what you're not good at, do more of that, fail at it a few times, and figure out what you need to be doing to do that, right. You know, for my purposes, I'll tell you where my big shortcomings always were. The big advocation that many lawyers give to each other is get involved in your bar associations, get involved with other organizations have lawyers that can send things back and forth to you. I was never comfortable on that front. For whatever reason, in terms of a networking context, I was always better working with people that were in business rather than law. Getting more comfortable with incorporating Bar Association activities and relations with other lawyers into my life in my practice was key. But it took me time to get comfortable with that, and took me time to get good at that and figure out how to do it right. But everybody, like you said, has to pick out that skill that they may not be great at, do it, fail at it, get good at it as a result of your failure, learn what you can do better, and just make it part of the routine in terms of what you're doing, and the overall to shake that tree and make business fall out.
Steve Fretzin 8:36
But don't we find it interesting that if you're a litigator and you go into court the first five times and maybe the judge doesn't agree with the way you're handling things, or you get disciplined or something like that, that that's a learning experience, that's an important element of, of getting better. And yet in business development, you know, it's not you don't even want the bat, you don't even want to like the idea of failing or the idea of trying and failing is is too much to handle. But I think that that that failing in court and learning is going to be important, just like in business development.
Brian Weinthal 9:08
I think it's imperative, as you suggest, you know, it's interesting, Steve, because in planning this, you and I talked about some topics out there that we might be able to discuss. And for me, failure is a big one, because failure really is the only true constant in any career. If there's one thing if there's only one thing I can guarantee anyone listening right now, is it they're going to fail on many, many different things in their career before all is said and done. For lawyers. This is an almost impossible thing to get your mind around. At the outset. We as attorneys often have a difficult time even accepting failure could be an option out there. When it happens, we often internalize that failure and make it about us something we did wrong or something wrong with us was somehow the cause of it and more. Most importantly, and I think most detrimentally to careers, we don't take the time and the opportunity to learn from the failure to figure out what we do next time to make sure that we don't fail the same way we did. For me, Steve, I'll tell two kind of conjoined stories here to give you my perspective, which is right in line with what you said. I remember being a young lawyer, and going to Cook County Circuit Court for the first time, I was lead counsel as a senior associate, it was going to be my case to run. Simple employment case, one plaintiff company, you know, I was on the company side. And I filed my motion to dismiss in the Cook County Circuit Court. And when I tell you, it was brilliant, Steve, I don't have the words to describe just how stunningly intelligent that motion was, by my younger self. My, my pin sights were perfect. My citations were exact. And as far as I was concerned, I was the brightest lawyer in the room, and I was getting this flaming PC, you know, what thrown out? Well, suffice it to say that my success was not so assured. And the Cook County Circuit Court took about three seconds to look down at my submission, saying, Look at the piece of unintelligible garbage that had been filed against me and deny my motion completely on Discovery. Here we go. And I remember, as a very, very young lawyer thinking to myself, How can this be, I just paid hundreds of 1000s of dollars and work 20 years to get a degree, that's supposed to indicate that when I do something perfectly and submit my perfectly legal product, that should just be granted, that should just happen on behalf of the court. But it doesn't go that way. And lawyers can't walk into circumstances, presuming that they're going to be able to drive an outcome merely because they put the time and effort work into something, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that lawyer shouldn't be diligent and shouldn't be focused and shouldn't turn out great legal work product. That's the key to ensuring a great career. And also, by the way, the key to ensuring that people routinely call you for the great work you produce. But you cannot let the internalization each will live, if something doesn't go the way you think it will. And the problem we have, as lawyers, of course, is we think to ourselves, I put hundreds of hours in on this, I should have gotten the result out of it that I wanted from the beginning. It just doesn't work that way, in most settings, and getting comfortable with that fact, is the key to growing and the key to learning and maturing in the profession as you go.
Steve Fretzin 12:34
Right. And I think you know, over preparing and expecting a result is fine. But again, if it doesn't turn out the way that you want, you know, you have to be prepared for that on a number of levels. And it sounds like, you know, again, the legal work and the business development are very much the same. I mean, here's a piece of business that the our firm is perfect for in every way, you know, we've got the right team, we've got the right answers, we know how to fix this, we've done 10 of these before, we should get that business and then it doesn't happen. And it's like, well, then what's the point of all this? So we have to, in some cases, debrief what happened and try to understand it. And then most importantly, is is not give up, keep working and just try to keep getting better and better and maybe come at things from a different angle, but you're not going to win them all.
Brian Weinthal 13:18
Just not possible. You know, it's funny you say that, Steve, because I'll footnote that by saying that business development is a lot like baseball. If you hit the ball three times and every 10, you're considered amazing. And in fact, what I'll what I'll do as well is I'll tell you, I have my first big pitch my first big opportunity, which did not go as as expected. Now, much like everyone you just described in your example, my thought was for the first big litigation opportunity I hadn't career, preparation was key. So I did exactly that hundreds of hours of getting ready. And boy, this was going to be an opportunity for me because a prospective client was flying in to talk to me. I had graphs ready, I had charts ready. I had printed brochures, colored documents. And not only that I had extrapolated every path that this particular litigation might take. outwards and beyond the plan Supreme Court appeal if we ever needed that in years hence, to say I was over prepared was an understatement. And suffice it to say it was far too overbearing, far too scary and far, much far too much of an information overload for this particular prospect. Not only did I not get the business, but the client, a prospective client indicated to me that I might want to work on how I pitch opportunities. Yeah. So to be clear, this was a failure of such epic proportion that I laugh about it now in the aftermath and use it as a teaching point. But again, the key was I could have either mired myself in that throw myself off a building, you know, let it eat me alive forever and never go back to me. This this development, or look at myself in the mirror and say, What did you do wrong here? And not only that next time you have the opportunity to sit down and talk to somebody to sell yourself. And so what you do? How can you do it in a manner that lands that comes across in a way that they can digest? They can absorb and use to form a connection with you, that will lead to not only an opportunity there, but future business opportunities as well. You know, Steve, if I had, if I had to derive a talking point from all this, it's the concept that lawyers view time as money with regard to billable hours. But in a perverse way, the idea of our value being the time we put in translates into other areas like business development, I'm sure you hear all the time from people who say to you, I don't get it, you know, I, I networked for 400 hours last year, and I only got X amount of meat, in the traditional way of thinking for most lawyers, the answer to that is, well, you should put 100 hours in next year, because then you're really going to get the results you want. It's almost this illusion of the more I put in, the more I should get out, when in fact, what you and I know to be true is even a simple half hour conversation where you connect with somebody on a deep and meaningful level, could lead to a lifetime of business, and a book larger than any you could imagine, just by the fact that you connected with somebody on a deep level, who then trust you enough to give you their business.
Steve Fretzin 16:33
Yeah, it's like anything, it's a learned skill. And you've got multiple options. One of them is, you know, just just feel around in the dark and figure it out. And over time, you know, like you said, you make mistakes, and you learn some things and hopefully, and then you get better and better and better. And that's what most of the attorneys are doing. The other side of it is and this isn't a direct plug for me. But looking at coaches looking at content, books, articles, videos, audios listening to this podcast, mean, there are shortcuts that are available to become a better business developer to have that 30 minute meaningful conversation versus the 400 hours of blind networking that never leads anywhere. Those all exist. But the smarter lawyer is going to say, How do I figure out the fastest path to x. And whatever that fastest path is, that's the one to take. And, and again, there's there's all types of content to use for that. Or it's even speaking with you, as a mentor at your firm is going to be better than just going out and spending this 400 hours and not getting much out of it and just kind of kicking yourself?
Brian Weinthal 17:43
Well, Steve, it really should be a pitch for you. And here's here's why. Like everything else in the lawyer mindset, we have that zero defect mentality, whereby if there is any failing in our practice, and be that on the business development side, or the work side, the idea of asking for help, or seeking for help, is about as foreign as a language that we don't speak, the concept that any lawyer would say to him or herself. You know what, I'm not good at this. And I need someone who can tell me or help me to get better at this is just simply a foreign language for most people. You know, in a certain sense, there's a hardcore kind of sharp edge to the profession whereby, like most things, we throw people into the water and hope they can swim. It's like the older litigators who used to train me who would say, well, you're not going to get good at this unless I send you to court on your own. That's one way of doing it. But yeah, I suppose. And the same thing, in a lot of cases applies for business development. You know, people say, Well, if you're not getting you're not getting c Jones over there. Well, Jones, his numbers aren't great this year. Boy Jones just doesn't get it. But Has anyone asked Jones, what the problem is, what they're feeling what he or she is feeling, that would be revolutionary. Put that aside, what's even more incredible would be if Jones says, You know what, I'm not good at this. And I'm gonna go out there and find somebody who can help me get better. There is no shame in using a coach. There is no stigma or reputation that she ever attached to anybody for reaching out to somebody that does what you do, to ask for help in this stuff. And if people have that mindset or mentality, I guarantee you that the same things that are not leading to good results are going to continue not leading to good results. I liken this to any other example out there. If I wanted to learn gymnastics, what exactly what I do go out and hire a coach or continue to throw myself around the room the hope that it helped that it looks artistic at some point. It's just it's just mind boggling to me. People don't reach out to people like you to ask for help when they need.
Steve Fretzin 19:56
The analogy that I've used and again, not to offend Anyone who is overweight, and you know, I've got a couple pounds on me. But it's like, I'm a personal trainer. And and I'm dealing with an audience of obese people that just won to pound Twinkies. So the last thing they want to do is talk to a personal trainer says stop eating those Twinkies because they're delicious. And, and they're just, it's just easy to sit back and eat them. So at some point, someone has to hit a point in their career, where they're willing to draw a line in the sand or they're they're open, they're opening their mind to maybe looking at a different way, is a better way than the way I'm doing it, maybe staying the same course down a path that isn't functional, isn't the best way to go. And then at that point, they might see something, read something here from somebody, and then eventually, they reach out to me, or take action on in some way. But you're very right on that, Brian, that it is, it is interesting that out of the large population of attorneys, Chicago or nationally, how if you actually take the plunge to do something that in any other type of career, or, or athletics or being a chef or anything, you would immediately want to get lessons or tutored or mentor or coached to do something to be successful at it. So that's just a very interesting, you know, element of the legal community that I've gotten myself into. So shame on me, but no, I mean, I do get to work. I mean, here's the here's the twist on it is that the people that do end up hiring me or working with me, are very smart, because they are taking that fastest route to get to a result or get to a goal. They are learning skills that they're going to have through their lifetime. And the reality is, I you know, that that I can't work with everybody. And the lawyers with the massive egos that that people, you know, whisper out in the corners, you know, they're not going to hire me either because they know everything already. Just ask them, they'll tell you they know everything. We know they don't. So it's an interesting bittersweet type of situation. But it does sort of ferret out the, you know, the the people that that are serious and committed and ambitious and the people who aren't. And the reality is that the kind of work I do, I can only work with the people that are ambitious or interested or coachable. Because they're the ones who are actually going to go in and take the coaching and go make it happen. But I'm glad you're a believer in that you see what I'm dealing with every day. I'd like to sort of, you know, move to one other question is, if there was, I know you to be a successful networker on a number of levels, not only in an individual basis, but also in the running of groups and participating in groups. What are some networking tips or ideas that you follow, and that you also teach younger attorneys or people that you network with to do that you think are really valuable?
Brian Weinthal 22:49
This is gonna sound bizarre. But the key is, ignore all of the business details until last. And what I mean by that is that it's true business development, comes from relationships, we know this, there is not going to be a business that you have, if you have not formed relationships with those around you. We also know of course, that no matter who you walk, I can walk out in the city, no fewer than 100 feet from where I am right now. And find someone who is better credentialed, better looking, has more business has more money, you name it, I can find something in a trade and someone else that bests what you bring to the table. It's clearly not an object of reason for which people give their business away. People give business to people they have relationships with. And that's bored of not only trust, but liking the other person. So for me, when I sit down to figure out where business where new business is going to come from, the absolute key to that process for me is not necessarily knowing what someone else does, so that we can send things back and forth. Although that is important. The key is knowing that their middle child might be coping with a certain type of special needs issue that's important to them and meaningful to them that I remember, check in on and bring that up. And I use that as a unique example. But I am the parent of a special needs child. And I know for example, that if that issue comes up any connections I do to folks in the business community, I know how important it's going to be to them. So remembering it, checking in on it and building on it is key. Now, that may not be a connected point for everyone else. I heard your I heard one of your beloved little children barking earlier on during the podcast. Maybe it's maybe it's pets, maybe it's an affectation for pets. Maybe it's affinity for an issue, a sports team, you name it, but the key is, it's important or what people do and it's good to exchange back and forth so that you can have Have a referral relationship with somebody, but the business will flow to you like never before. If that person looks to you not as a lawyer, not as just somebody they call for legal services, but as somebody that they connect with on a personal level, because remember, in the 11th hour, when that legal problem comes in, when that dire issue has arisen, when that complaint gets dropped off, when Something terrible has happened, it's who people call that 11th hour that really determines how strong those relationships are, and how you can profit from them by being a lawyer for that particular client. If my immediate inclination is something terrible just happened, and I need to call somebody, and that person is the person that I connect with well, and trust. That's a relationship that's going to last a lifetime. That's a client that will be with you for a lifetime. So what I tell people is ignore the business details. Yeah, those are good to have, you need to cover them at some point, inevitably. But when you sit down with somebody at lunch, start off with, tell me I know, you know, I'm having a crazy time balancing this COVID thing trying to get my son at the school, what are some of the things you're going through? What are the some of the challenges you're experiencing during this COVID nightmare, right now, they're making especially tough for you, you might even dedicate, this is a skill, you might even try your first lunchtime, sit down or phone call, whatever it is somebody, don't even worry about the business spent 20 minutes checking in with that person. Because if the individual wants to talk to you, again, because they connected Well, all that business relation stuff, all that legal, and business information, you guys are gonna exchange that's going to come, that's going to be guaranteed in the aftermath, what's not going to be guaranteed is the other way around. You start with some droll initial 20 minute dialogue about what you do, when they should call you this kind of thing. There is no guarantee from that point, you're going to get the second phone call to get to the meat of it, that's going to give you your business. So ignore the business first go with the personal connecting, everything else will fall into place later.
Steve Fretzin 27:03
I would I would add something to that. And I agree that relationship first. There are certain circumstances though, where you only have an hour or two, let's say you know, build a relationship and there is time for business. It's not like you know, you have to spend the whole hour doing just relation. Now there are certain certain circumstances let's say a meeting, I'm a you're a litigator, you're dealing with a you're meeting with a high level GC that someone set you up with, there could be business there, or connections there. Yeah, you could, you could say, hey, it's going to take me three meetings over six months to get the relationship to the point where the business would come in. However, one thing that I like to teach and add on to what you're saying is, let's say that you're meeting with another lawyer, who might be a good referral source for you. Okay, and that type of scenario, definitely spend time on the relationship. And the other thing that I'm interested in finding out too, is about that other person in many ways. Are they qualified to be a referral partner for me, and I want to try to figure that out, in some cases, not every case, in the first meeting, and here's why I can have a relationship and stay friends with anyone I want. That's certainly an easy thing to do, and to say, however, there are certain people that are more qualified than others, that if you can figure that out, in addition to the relationship in the first meeting, that might save you from having 2, 3, 4 meetings with someone who turns out really can't throw business your way will never throw business your way. They'll never be a business relationship. And I don't want to spend 2, 3, 4 meetings with someone where I'm hopeful or wondering if I can get something when in reality, it's just not there. It doesn't exist. Right. So I think that we also want to be careful over relationship being somebody where we think there might be business without asking some maybe some key questions to identify that in addition to the relationship, there's also a reason to continue the conversation. From a business perspective. What do you think about kind of what that that ideal? I, I guess it's like, idealistic way of thinking about things?
Brian Weinthal 29:04
Well, I'm going to, I'm going to credit you, I'm going to challenge you, and then affirm you if that's the case, but...
Steve Fretzin 29:09
Okay, let's hear it. Sure.
Brian Weinthal 29:10
The first thing I want to say is that I think that's a fantastic point. Let me say that my example might have been simplistic in the sense that I was assuming that we knew that the individual we were targeting at that point was going to have some type of effective relationship that would go back and forth. But you're 100%. Right. There is no question that identifying the best referral sources and opportunities for you is a key part of networking, because not all types of networking are going to be the same or optimal for either different professions or different types of lawyers. So I think you're 100% right. I think it's imperative to know what your targets are. Because of course, as we know, there are many lawyers who just paper the city who just try, you know, they, they're they're throwing out incredible business development efforts, but not in any specific target or opportunity. So I think you're 100% correct. They think you are without doubt on the money on that point. Let me politely challenge you at the same time insist do it at the same time and say that while you're correct that ultimately there might be better or more optimal sources. One thing I want to encourage your listeners to to avoid doing is burning a bridge. Oh, sure anybody you speak to, I think we should envision as if they have a sign around their neck that says make me feel important. I think that's an old, you know, an old coaching point that people use. So the key is, if you've identified somebody that is not in your wheelhouse, I still think it makes sense to look for opportunities to throw something to them, even if it's a regular or recurring source. But I think the key is, you never want to burn a bridge, even if somebody is not going to be an optimal referral channel partner for you in that regard. But I think that's in line with what you're saying, I don't I don't think..
Steve Fretzin 30:54
No, no, you're not challenging. You're not challenging anything, all you're doing is making sense. So, you know, my father, retired attorney, I think one of his famous quotes was, you know, if you can't make a sale, make a friend. And so again, you know, networking isn't? It's a good one, right. And it is about relationships. And that's always going to be number one. It's interesting, just this morning, and I want to introduce you to this guy, he's a new client of mine, he does plaintiff side, labor and employment. And I working with him on Yeah, you got to get in touch with the defense side, because in many instances, they're getting hit up for plaintiff stuff they don't want or don't do, and they need someone to send it to. And you're as good as any, you know, you know, if not better. So. You know, however, let's say that he meets with a defense side, labor employment person, like yourself, and you're like, Well, my brother in law, or my friend, my good friend from, you know, for years has been has been, you know, doing the plaintiff side, and I said everything to him. And that's, that's it, if he understands that in the first meeting, and builds a relationship with you doesn't burn any bridges, and also knows, hey, if things don't you know, if something ever happens, where you need a second opinion, or you want a second option, you know, I'd love to be there for you. But you may end up not being someone who has to spend in a tremendous amount of time with or relationship up for years, he could say, look, this is a relationship I want to keep, I'm not gonna burn a bridge, and I'm going to stay this keep this person happy. However, there are probably fish in the sea that are going to have more opportunities to refer then this individual who's kind of locked in somewhere else. And that's the kind of stuff that I want lawyers to understand is that there are some qualifying questions. Like, here's one in an average year, Brian, how often do you come across that plaintive side situation where you need to send it out to somebody? Is it once a year? Is it five times a year? Is it five times a month? That not only and then also, you know, where are you? What are you currently doing with that? Oh, well, I just tell people, I don't do it. And that's the end of it. Well, that's business that's being kind of just thrown away, instead of being pointed in a positive direction to someone who's going to really take good care of it. Right, that situation. So that's the example that I would use, and that I teach to kind of, you know, make sure that things are moving forward with the right people.
Brian Weinthal 33:13
Yeah, that's an excellent, you have to be strategic in your business development efforts. I mean, this kind of this kind of floats around what I think you're getting to, you know, from from from start to finish your seat, which is, it's working smarter, not harder. When it comes to building out and developing your book of business. If you're picking the right strategic opportunities to build with those are gonna pay off for you in spades, as opposed to just simply throwing business development efforts out there that don't have a guided or directed way to go to get you where you want to be.
Steve Fretzin 33:43
Yep, you're absolutely spot on the money. And let's wrap it up with you know, how do people get in touch with you? Or is there anything that you'd like to share, promote with the audience?
Brian Weinthal 33:53
I'll throw out there that to the extent that anyone has labor and employment issues on the management side, I'm here to I'm here to help. I'm here to be a resource. I am not one of those clock builders, I am not somebody that requires money for any type of initial dialogue. So even if people want to bounce some ideas off me, it's just an initial conversation point. Happy to do that happy to serve in that role. I'll offer the general advice that if you're having problems with an employee in the workplace, calling me early is almost I say almost almost a guarantee that that problem is going to be less expensive and easier to fix than if we let a problem fester in the workplace to the point where it eventually explodes. And I guarantee you no matter what the problem is, if you let it go, it will explode. So to the extent that anybody listening has questions about labor plummet, issues that have come up, dealing with employees, terminations, claims for retaliation, discrimination, or the novel stuff, if biometric information, things like that, please reach out. I am on Warren's website. I also have a very strong presence on LinkedIn as well. It's Brian Weinthal, w e i n t h a l. And you should be able to find me an either spot very easily.
Steve Fretzin 35:07
Well, that's fantastic. And again, I just want to thank you again for taking some time to work with me through some of these issues and help my help the other lawyers that that listen to this show, you know, get some good takeaways. And I think there's a number of them that they should have jotted down as, as, as you're speaking. So I really appreciate you coming on board here.
Brian Weinthal 35:26
This has been great, Steve, thank you so much for having me. As I said, I'm a huge fan. I have tremendous regard for some of the incredible names I know you work with, I'm not going to reveal them here. But I know you work with tremendous regard for those attorneys. And I think you do a great service and more lawyers should absolutely reach out to you to make that to make that work for them. Because boy, having control of your own business is really the only way to have control of your career in law. A great resource to help people do that.
Steve Fretzin 35:51
Well, I appreciate that very much. And Hey, everybody, just want to thank you again for taking some time with Brian and I today to listen to the show. And you know, again, the goal is to get you you know closer and closer to being that lawyer the one everyone's looking up to the leader in your firm, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe, take care, and we'll see you again soon. Talk to you again soon.
Narrator 36:12
Bye. Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.