In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Michalek discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"Not all organizations are created equal. It’s important to take into account other factors, like culture and colleagues, when practicing law. It can make a big difference in the ability for you to practice, as well as your happiness and lifestyle." — Brian Michalek
Connect with Brian Michalek:
Email: Brian.Michalek@Saul.com
Phone: 312-876-7836
LinkedIn: Brian Michalek & Saul Ewing Arnstein & Lehr LLP
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Brian Michalek 0:00
Not all organizations are created equal. And it's important to take into account other factors like culture and your colleagues and things like that when practicing law because it can make a big difference on the ability for you to practice as well as your your happiness and your lifestyle.
Narrator 0:21
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:43
Well, hello, everyone, welcome to my show, be that lawyer. I'm Steve Fretzin. In and if this is the first time you've heard my show, I am not a lawyer, I was recruited into the legal space back in 2008, when the recession hit, but I've devoted all my time for the last 12 plus years to one thing that's helping attorneys make more money, have peace of mind that comes with having their own clients and a more sustainable book of business. Speaking of books, I've written three books on legal business development, networking marketing, right for the Chicago daily law bulletin. And you know, it's all about helping lawyers to just get it together and recognize, you know, how important it is to have their own book. So I am absolutely super thrilled to introduce my guest, Brian mahalik. He is a partner at Saul Ewing. And he's a famous client of mine, and I want to welcome into the show. How's it going, Brian?
Brian Michalek 1:34
Hey, Steve, it's going fantastic. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin 1:37
Know, my pleasure. My pleasure. So in addition to being an attorney at Saul Ewing, I know that you're, well, obviously, I know you're in the IP space, and that you're also an adjunct professor at Kent law, right?
Brian Michalek 1:49
Yeah, that's correct. I teach a class called acquiring intellectual property. And it's for second third years, as well as LLM students. And we really delve into different corporate IP strategy. And okay, we have the IP now we have the patents, we have the copyrights, what do we do with it? And what's our corporate strategy going to be? And how are we going to leverage this to drive our business forward? So it's, it's it's a pretty interesting class that really gets into some of the nuts and bolts on to, you know, what we do with this intellectual property?
Steve Fretzin 2:21
Very cool. Before we get into more about that, let's get let's take a step back and maybe give the listeners a little bit of your background, you know, educational background and experience in IP?
Brian Michalek 2:31
Yeah, I know, that's a great question. I've been in the patent litigation space for well over a decade. Now, my background at the university level was electrical engineering. And, you know, dealing largely with signals and systems, wireless communications, things like that, and when I discovered at a fairly young age is that I didn't really ever want to become an engineer. And somewhere along the line, I kind of fell in love with this concept of intellectual property law, the fact that there are lawyers that help defend and protect different innovations, different technologies, software, and you know, that's really where I, where I focus my career from a young age. We're met now Saul Ewing Arnstein and Lehr. I am in the patent litigation space. And really, really where my practice lies is advising clients on the who, what, why, where and how of patents and intellectual property. Usually, you know, a common a common phone call out is from a client that says, hey, I was sued for patent infringement, what do I do? Or on the other side of things, a client will come to me and say, Hey, I have this, these patents here and one of my competitors stole my ideas, you know, can you help us? And that's generally the two types of forms of disputes that come across my desk.
Steve Fretzin 3:49
Got it, got it. And obviously, our topic for this show. And the topic that I want to talk to you about specifically is about business development. It's about growing a book of business. And, you know, I know I mentioned earlier that you know, you're a client of mine, but you want to talk maybe for a moment about your background as it relates to business development and why you decided to work with me.
Brian Michalek 4:10
Ya know, that it's a pretty interesting story. You know, the one thing the one thing they don't teach you at law school is, how do you get clients? Um, you know, you learn the legal process, you learn all about, you know, the pace of classes and things like that. But when you're out there, finally practicing law for yourself, you know, the big question mark is, is where do I actually get the work? You know, if somebody's not feeding it to me, I started my practice at a boutique padded firm here in Chicago. And, you know, went up through the associate ranks, I switched to another patent boutique firm, a few years after that, and I made partner there. But really, the problem I saw was that I didn't have any clients. You know, I was, I think what the industry dubs a service partner, I'm doing air quotes here which it is It's, it's it's good work and, and it's exhilarating work and you're constantly at least with what I do, you're on the cutting edge of technology and innovation. And it's exciting to, you know, get the big win for your client and be able to record it. You know, the problem for me, and the realization I had probably about three or four years ago was that you know, what's going to happen if these clients go away, you know, how valuable I'm going to be as a partner, if I don't have my own book of business with me, and, you know, that was kind of the realization that I, that, you know, going forward in this business, especially in the private law firm practice world, I was gonna have to do something about that and start developing my own book. Otherwise, I would never really be in control of my own practice and my own destiny.
Steve Fretzin 5:46
Gotcha. So it was a realization A number of years ago. And then what what was your immediate thought? Was it to try to get out and do it yourself? Was it, just think about it, but not do it yourself? I mean, it took you a while before you eventually came around and hired me. So there must be something, or I think there might have been something that happened in between.
Brian Michalek 6:05
Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned that. Yeah, you know, how hard to be, I thought, I'm gonna go out there, I'm going to, you know, start going to networking meetings and give my business card to people and, you know, talk about all the good stuff that I can do for them. And, you know, it's gonna be simple, right? Well, you know, I tried that. And what I, what I found was that it, you know, it's not that simple. And ultimately, you know, I was putting a lot of effort and time in with trying to connect with people. And, you know, I was just doing it in a way that that was really inefficient and wasn't really seeing dividends, I wasn't seeing them immediately. And I also wasn't seeing them down the road. So I kind of, you know, through the script I was working with a way. And something, something actually really interesting happened is that, you know, I met my now wife, who is in sales enablement. And she's not a lawyer, she doesn't do anything with lawyers. But her part of her job is she works with salespeople, and she helps advise them and coach them and teach them how they can best sell their product and how they can work with their customers. So they can be a resource and a value to their customers. And Steve, you know, you know, this part of the story, this is when I met you, I don't know how you met my wife, or what a particular event it was, but she knew that I was struggling with with business development in the legal world, and she met you. And she thought that it would be a really, really positive experience for me to sit down and have a conversation. And so I'll stop there. But that's basically how you know, our paths crossed.
Steve Fretzin 7:40
It might be helpful, because as people are listening to this, I think they're probably appreciating your story and your struggle, and sort of how, you know, it took it, you know, some time to get to me. And fortunately, you did. And then what's the process that you and I went through? As a relates to figuring out if there's a fit, figure it out? If if the investment of time and money and energy to work with a coach, that that made sense to you?
Brian Michalek 8:07
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't even know. It was it was a little bit ago. But yeah, I remember, you know, we sat down, I think we met in person for coffee. You know, we went back and forth on the phone. You know, I obviously had a lot of questions. You know, the, the foremost of those questions was, is this going to be worth my time and my money? Am I going to see results? And, you know, I think, together, you and I were able to you were able to field some of those questions, kind of give me a vision of, of what the future and what it would look like and what it would look like to work with one another. And ultimately, you know, at the end of the day, I, you know, everything seemed to make sense to me. And I decided, you know, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to give it a go and be part of this program, and really change the way that I approach business development from a legal perspective.
Steve Fretzin 8:55
Okay, so you and I agree that there's a good fit, and we want to work together and you enter into the program. And for those of you who don't know, the kinds of programs I run, it's a combination of one on one coaching and accountability. There's a classroom element where we're doing skills, building and learning all these different skills. And and, Brian, if you wouldn't mind, just to share with the audience, I mean, what was it like to go through that program? And to be involved and engaged in that? And then sort of how did you see things change for you?
Brian Michalek 9:25
Yeah, so the first the first thing I'll say about the program was, you know, we met every Tuesday morning from from eight to 10 for almost a year. And it was hands on. The first hour was spent with a classroom of about 10 to 12. Attorneys, I'd say and Steve, of course, yourself, you were there? I think so. And the attorneys with roundtable and pro any business development issue that we're tackling on the whiteboard, whether it was Hey, I had a really good meeting this month, this guy won't call me back to you know, I have a big Meeting with the general counsel, I want to make sure that, you know, I say and do the right things, and I have a good strategy. And we put them on the whiteboard, and then we'd spitball it for an hour. And Steve, of course, you know, you would guide us and help help stimulate, stimulate thought and stimulate strategy. And ultimately, you know, we'd come to a resolution with a game plan for you know, how to go forward with these solutions to these issues that we're dealing with. And then the second half was, was really a integrated workshop, I'll call it where, you know, Steve, you, you've got a very methodology, I'll say, and, you know, we learn that methodology, but then we're also able to practice, you know, with the attorneys in the class, you know, different scenarios on how to execute on that methodology. And, you know, if we come across, you know, something in our networking, or in our client meetings, or prospective client meetings, you know, how how we can communicate better and how we can be more effective in, in being attorneys, and also, you know, being a resource and potentially getting the engagement.
Steve Fretzin 10:57
Yeah, and I think what I like to observe is not perfection, but people that are taking in this content, this methodology, they're testing it out, they're trying it out, they're seeing how it fits, they're practicing. And the thing that we talked about isn't just, you know, practice makes perfect, I think it was Lombardi that said, perfect practice makes perfect. So the idea that someone learns a methodology, that's fine, but what I was observing with you is how quickly you were able to take the methodology, the script, the steps, whatever it was, and execute on it. And if there was some feedback for you about a step that you needed to tweak or something that you needed to get customized to your audience, that you were able to very nimbly move, and and tweak it and then do it again, in a much more efficient or effective way as it relates to how you executed. And that's one of the things that made you such a great client. And then I think that led to you being able to go out and use it on the field, if you will to execute with the people you're networking with the people that you're, you know, the prospective clients that you're talking to, and and how did it How did the class then relayed out to the I guess that's the next question is, how did the class then were laid out to, you know, being on the field?
Brian Michalek 12:11
Yeah, well, you know, I actually, I had a basketball coach in high school that used that same phrase, perfect practice makes perfect. It's a classic, it's true, right? If you do things the wrong way, and you practice them the wrong way, the you're going to get not get the results you want. So the word about the methodology, and I'm really, really, really have a debt of gratitude to learn to use for learning this and teaching you this is that the way I see this methodology and how it works in the field, I think is the methodology makes me a better lawyer, first and foremost, in that, I've truly learned to understand what my clients and prospective clients are dealing. And by truly having that understanding, and that awareness, I can better diagnose what their real problem is. And in turn, I can be a better attorney, and a better resource for them. It's almost for me, the ancillary effect of all that and of the methodology is that I get the business, I'm able to get the engagement because, you know, through that process, the client and I, and I really, truly form engagement and form a relationship where we want to work together. So that's really been my, from a 30,000 foot view, that's been my experience of being out there in the field. And, and using what I learned, it's really killing two birds with one stone being being able to become a better attorney, and then also getting the business alongside with it.
Steve Fretzin 13:37
Yeah, so I think I think, you know, I don't want to say makes make someone a better person. But there have been, you know, situations where, you know, look, if whether you're out with friends, or you're with your, your, your child, or, or whatever, or prospective client, you know, the methodology focuses on relationships, and focuses on asking questions and being a better listener. And, you know, most attorneys go in and they want to solve, and they want to talk, and they want to, you know, show how smart they are. And it's not that that shouldn't happen at some point. But I think the methodology teaches prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. And so we want to work on a methodology where we're able to get in a lot more relationship and information and in a level of understanding with a prospective client or with someone you're networking with, or whatever, so that you know how to respond and you're able to respond in a way that's going to be much more applicable to their situation to solve a problem or to identify where you can add value for one another, that type of thing.
Brian Michalek 14:38
Yeah, exactly. I think that I think that makes perfect sense. You know, it's funny, I think back to some of the pitches I made, you know, before before going through this process, and just the number of things I did wrong, you know, in hindsight, you know, like showing up with that first PowerPoint slide presentation about, this is who we are and these are all of our wins, and this is why we're the best and we're going to be the best For you, and really, you know, focusing on the wrong person, you know, focusing on how how great our services are, which, of course, is very important. But instead, you know, not fully focusing on on the client, potential client to really learn what, what the problem is, and how, how we can better understand that problem. So we can actually find the best resolution.
Steve Fretzin 15:23
So I think this is giving people that are listening, a great understanding of, you know, maybe the value of not just having a coach, but being in a program that allows you to learn a methodology that's going to be effective in growing your book of business. The other side of it, as I mentioned earlier, is that you and I had had an ongoing one on one relationship ongoing one on one meetings, while you were going through this program, can you speak to what we did in those meetings? Or what the value was for us to meet one on one?
Brian Michalek 15:52
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that was very much an important piece of the puzzle, especially for someone like me, you know, I've spoken to a lot of my colleagues and some other people in the industry about, you know, our experience, Steve. And the question is, it's usually something like, well, how much you know, how much time did it take and that kind of thing? And, and ultimately, I tell them that, you know, that, yes, there's classroom time, but but like anything, it's, you know, how much you put in is how much you get out? So, for me, you know, and working with you, Steve, you know, I had a journal, I, you know, you and I had a journal where I would basically mark down, you know, everything that I was doing from a business development perspective, and keep track of that, you know, such as, did I send out an email to that person I met at the networking event? Did I go to a networking event this week? Did I write an article that was related to my IP field? And we keep track of all that stuff? And then you and I would meet monthly to go over it and find out? Okay, these are the activities you're doing, you know, are you getting clients from them? Are you getting second meetings from them? Basically, putting these objective criteria on a piece of paper so that we could take a data and analyze how well it was working? And there were some answers, you know, you know, we did really well, you know, yeah, we got, we got engagement out of this. And then there were other months where, you know, things didn't go as well, but we take a look at the data. And we'd see, okay, well, you know, I, you know, I didn't really reach out to anybody, or I didn't go to enough networking events, and we're able to kind of tailor our approach based on on on that data. And that was a great help, you know, from both an analysis standpoint, but also an accountability standpoint, the fact that, you know, I knew we were going to meet every month help hold me accountable to making sure that I made those phone calls, even even though I maybe didn't feel like it, or I sent those emails, even though it was at the end of the day, and, you know, you'd probably rather go home, then, you know, work on your business development. So, you know, that was my perspective on our, our monthly one on one is great from both in analysis standpoint, but also from, you know, holding me accountable to get get the job that needed to get done.
Steve Fretzin 17:58
And I think I think to add on to that, Brian, that there's a lot of different coaches out there some that are very, very good, and some that that are lacking, and I don't, you know, say anything negative about anybody, I could just say, what what I do, what I found that works, is not just meeting with someone like yourself and saying, hey, Brian, how's it going, and just trying to get you to, you know, spit out some things that are going on, so we can talk about and fill it in our might always rather have a journal data, things that we can work with, you know, talking about specific appointments and what went well, and what could be improved and try to again, learn something and make keep making you better and better. And so that's really the goal so that when someone leaves me, eventually, because I don't, you know, put people through a program twice, that they've got the skills built in, they've got the the habits built in, doesn't mean that we can't work on some small level after the fact. But the idea that, you know, I'm looking for an investment of time, money and energy up front to get someone to result in to a level of growth and sustainability that will carry them through their career, as opposed to, you know, some hit and run situation. So and having a client like you is really important because you executed you were on the field, you know, playing every day playing hard, not making excuses and showing up. And that's really what it takes. I would say, you know, people say, Oh, yeah, you have to have a, you know, be that you know, like a Rainmaker type or you have to be, Mr. personality. And certainly you have a great personality. However, it's it's more about the motivation, the ambition, the interest in developing a book, and I feel like you have that, you know, in spades.
Brian Michalek 19:40
Well, yeah, thanks for saying as they've You know, I think that I think, I think that's right. But yeah, it's certainly, you know, the program that, you know, I went through with you, I mean, it's, it's for all different folks, you know, have different personalities. And I think the only common characteristic is you're actually going to want to have it, you're actually going to want to put the work in and and and work hard at it and you'll be successful.
Steve Fretzin 20:03
You know, something that lawyers are concerned about is, how are they going to deal with going through a program like this? Or even the ramifications of of it would be right now you have your own clients, but you also have the billable hour, you also have the time crunch of what you currently are dealing with? How do you see yourself or others that maybe that, you know, manage the business development and the billable hour and their home life to make it all work?
Brian Michalek 20:32
Yeah, no, that's a great question, right? There's only so many hours in the day. And for me, it was just resource management. You know, I learned that, and I think this happens with a lot of lawyers too, it's that, you know, we come into the office, we, you know, we're working on a brief or we're preparing for a deposition or, or we're doing something engaging like that. And it takes a lot of thought, it takes a lot of energy, and you get to six o'clock, or you get to the end of the day. And the last thing you want to do is work on business development, because you know, you did good work on that brief, or you took a good deposition, and you're exhausted, and you want to go back and relax and, and, and get ready and ready for the next day. So I knew that it wouldn't work. For me personally, I knew that when it worked, that is, you know, if I waited to the end of the day, so what I did, and still do, to a certain extent is I, I carve out time in the morning, you know, every Wednesday, from 730 to nine o'clock, before things really ramp up in the office. You know, that's, that's where I'm going to work on my business development, whether it's setting up meetings, whether it's writing articles, or preparing speaking engagements, you know, that's my, my private hour and a half. And sometimes it takes longer than that, sometimes it takes less, but I know that week in week out, I'm going to have that pocket of time to really focus on business development. And then, you know, for the remainder of that Wednesday, you know, then I can focus on, you know, whatever I have to do from a billable perspective. And that's fine that from a resource management standpoint, if if you if you're able to set aside, you know, the appropriate pockets, when you know, you're going to be effective with business development, you know, you're you're still able to meet whatever billable requirement you need, as long as be there for your family and friends.
Steve Fretzin 22:15
Yeah, so, it's, it's not an unusual situation being that I work exclusively with attorneys that I'm dealing with people that have time issues and time management issues. So it is a regular part of our conversations and discussions to try to figure out how to delegate figure out how to manage time and schedule time and, and keep the balance between that billable hours the work in the in the family, because the last thing I want is someone you know, killing themselves over a long period of time, and avoiding their family and kids and everything that's meaningful in this world, spouse, etc. So we definitely want to look at that I thought, I thought you handled that very well. But then even for the women that are out there, and I'm not mansplaining, trust me, I've been accused of that in the past. But I've worked with lots of women, I've worked with women that are going through, you know, pregnancies, I've worked with women that are, you know, that are having all kinds of time management issues, because they they, you know, they care so much about their family. And it is about managing time, it's about learning methodologies and habits that allow you to get better balance. You know, I would say very similar things to men as well as women that if you're not managing your time, the time is managing you. And you're going to end up pretty unhappy. So we definitely work on that as a part of this, you know, program.
Brian Michalek 23:33
Yeah, no, I definitely. Yeah, I definitely agree with Steve and get like, anything Time management is important with within this context.
Steve Fretzin 23:40
Yeah, no doubt. No. So listen, uh, Brian, I'd like to finish up with with something and you kind of said this earlier, but it's a segment I like to call, they never taught me this in law school. So, you know, people out there, I'm sure every lawyer has said that at some point. And so is there something that, you know, you want to, you know, say what's like the one thing that you wish they had taught you in law school that that they didn't that would have helped you in your career?
Brian Michalek 24:07
Well, I have two things, Steve, you know, one, one, probably more on point with our topic. And that which you alluded to, was that they don't teach you, you know, how to get clients in law school. You know, it's, it's a very regimented, you take first year, take all the courses that you're told to take, second, third year, you get a little more, you know, ability to investigate and explore classes, but when it comes to business development, it it's crickets, you don't get anything else. So, you know, that's something that, that maybe as a young attorney, you know, I I never really thought too much about or, or anything like that. But it was when I started to develop more into my career that I realized I was going to have to learn somehow how to do this because this is, you know, the lifeblood of successful practice. So I was the first thing and that's probably what's most onpoint. The second thing is, and I was thinking a little bit more about this When I went back in about law school is, is not all law firms are created equal. You know, I think as a as a law student, and hopefully this could be helpful to some of the young listeners out there, but as a law student, you think, you know, you look at hours you look at comp, and that's pretty much it. At least that's, that's how I remember it being. But having been to a variety of different law firms and practiced in house for a little bit, you know, not all organizations are created equal. And it's important to take into account other factors like culture and your colleagues and things like that when I'm practicing law because it can make a big difference on the ability for you to practice as well as your your, your happiness and your lifestyle.
Steve Fretzin 25:43
Got it? Awesome, really good points, really good points. So let me just wrap things up by saying, you know, if people want to get in touch with you other lawyers that need help with IP, or want to talk to you about your business, how do they best get in touch with you.
Brian Michalek 25:57
You know, I'm, I'm always up to talk with with other attorneys, other people who have had an issues or intellectual property issues or even like think they have an issue and they just want to have a conversation. I'm always open to the scheduling a meeting, you can either email me at my firm email, which is Brian mahalik, and I CH, AE l e k, at Saul as a ul calm or you can give me a call at 312-876-7836 and I'm happy to have a conversation.
Steve Fretzin 26:34
Well Brian, I appreciate your you're taking some time to talk with me and with my audience about not only what I you know, I worked on with you but also about your story and how you kind of came to be and in developing a book of business and and and I know it's just going to continue to grow from there. So thank you.
Brian Michalek 26:53
No, thank you say you're welcome. But thank you for for having me. And it's always great to get to sit down and have a conversation with you and and you know, talk about the jury.
Steve Fretzin 27:03
Yeah, awesome, awesome stuff. So Hey, everyone, I just want to thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's show, and that you know, everybody's getting one step closer to being that lawyer like Brian, confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, everybody, thank you.
Narrator 27:22
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.