In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Bill Sugarman discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"The ability to develop a book is more than just the immediate compensation, the ability to develop a book and have a well-entrenched client base allows an individual to really get to the next level, and, frankly, control their destiny in a material way." — Bill Sugarman
Connect with Bill Sugarman:
Website: AstorSearch.com
Phone: 312-781-9000
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/billsugarman
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Bill Sugarman 0:00
Perhaps an attorney might have, you know, a multimillion dollar book of business, but for reasons that are sort of focused on personality or cultural fit or lack thereof, didn't get hired because they were perceived as somebody that may not play well in the sandbox with others, whether it be at the firm, or clients or what have you. And so it's really sort of a multi pronged analysis when it comes to a lateral hiring.
Narrator 0:31
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, we'll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:54
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And as the announcer had just mentioned, and I hope everybody's having a great day today, and you're thinking, you know, strategically about your book of business, you're thinking about your marketing, your branding, you're thinking about your maybe Are you in the right place to work is the environment and the culture, and your income and how they compensate you all working out in your favor in a positive way. If you're curious about that, or want to learn more about what does it look like to move I have a friend of mine and also that one of the top legal recruiters really in the country, Bill Sugarman. He's the founder and president of Aster professional search, how you doing? Well,
Bill Sugarman 1:33
I'm doing well, Steve,
Steve Fretzin 1:35
Good to see you, man. Everything going good. How's your kids tennis coming along?
Bill Sugarman 1:39
Very well, very well, he's on that he's gonna come back to her having had a femur fracture back in April. So he's doing well now.
Steve Fretzin 1:46
Good, good, good, good. And, you know, my audience knows I do a terrible job at introducing people. So could you give a little background on how you sort of came to be in the industry that you're in?
Bill Sugarman 1:56
Absolutely. Steven, I appreciate you having me. Yeah, I so I graduated law school back in 92. So I am still, as they say, a recovering attorney practice for a few years, I was fortunate to be part of a very high profile litigation firm, at a time in 92, when the economy is in shambles. So I did feel very fortunate. Although at the time, I realized that I was not necessarily oriented towards litigation, in terms of feeling like I was constantly in an adversarial relationship was oriented more towards the business side of things and sort of working towards a common goal, was able to then land an opportunity as in House Counsel for a corporation, which I liked a lot more, and then eventually realized that the business development aspect was much more to my liking, was able to get into a business development role within a corporation. And then from there, doing more business development for a couple internet software companies at the time, when the internet was really sort of booming, was opportunistic. But then, in thinking long term about what I really wanted, which path I wanted to take, I felt like leveraging my legal background and my business development background, in a scenario, like legal recruiting was very much my passion, because it allowed me to, to sort of develop long lasting relationships based on trust in fundamentally changing for the better, and having an effect on frankly, one of the most important decisions one can make, which is their livelihood, and their career path. And so I think at the end of the day, you know, that sort of legal background, business development background, and and ability to really find true meaning in developing a long lasting relationship with an attorney, and then having a fundamental positive impact on their livelihood, you know, has been extremely rewarding out of the gate and continues to be going forward.
Steve Fretzin 3:53
So at the end of the day, you've been running this business now for is it 20 years? You mentioned?
Bill Sugarman 3:57
Just about 20 years
Steve Fretzin 3:59
Okay. And so what sort of have you learned in 20 years, about firms and what they're looking for and how that matches up with candidates?
Bill Sugarman 4:09
Sure, no, that's a great question. I think at the end of the day, of course, with respect to lateral partners, book of business is always a central theme. You know, law firms are interested in adding laterals, who have inherent value, both from a substantive skill set standpoint, but also, with respect to being able to generate revenue revenue generation, at the end of the day is the name of the game for law firms in terms of, you know, really profitability as well as you from a metric standpoint and rising to the top and competing with other law firms. So certainly book of business is is a central theme. That said, book of business is not everything. And frankly, oftentimes it's not The defining piece that determines whether an attorney will or will not be hired by a law firm. A big piece of that is personality and cultural fit. And there's been many examples I can cite where perhaps a, an attorney might have, you know, a multimillion dollar book of business, but for reasons that that are sort of focused on personality or cultural fit, or lack thereof, didn't get hired, because they were perceived as somebody that may not play well in the sandbox with others, whether it be at the firm, or clients or what have you. And so it's really sort of a multi pronged analysis when it comes to lateral hiring.
Steve Fretzin 5:41
So my guess is that firms are becoming a little more particular about the culture fit and about the personality fit, because they've had the big egos, and they've had that sort of jerks, you know, come in and just disrupt, and they're not looking for that, you know, even if there's money involved, they'd rather have the harmony, or the, you know, just not have to deal with politicking and grandstanding with people. And so they're probably leaning away from from the big egos.
Bill Sugarman 6:06
Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. At the end of the day, the the thought is that if you have even, you know, one individual who is, you know, not able to play well in the sandbox, or actually becomes frankly toxic, then, as with many things, you know, that that sort of toxicity, you know, spreads like a virus and in the, in the dynamic in the system with respect to the culture overall. And, you know, it then becomes hard to contain. And I think that firms are much more cognizant of avoiding the propensity for that to happen. And that can be vetted out fairly, fairly quickly, or throughout the interview process accordingly.
Steve Fretzin 6:50
Gotcha. And so let's think about, you know, from the lawyers perspective, what are the top reasons why lawyers change firms? What's going on? Where they're where they're, they're looking to move?
Bill Sugarman 7:01
Sure, that's a great question. You know, a lot of people think that it always comes down to money compensation. And certainly, that's it. Yeah, a key piece of that, but there's many other pieces as well that come with that conflicts, where all of a sudden, somebody may be having a, you know, a very, very good practice at law firm ABC. And, you know, 235 years later, the firm makes a decision that they want to, you know, go in a direction, which is beneficial to many people, but as adverse to that particular person from a conflict standpoint, and that person finds himself in a position where, because of that conflict, maybe their book of business just went from, you know, 4 million to 2 million. Well, that's obviously a very good reason to explore the other options, so that they're not involved in a situation that you know, where they're having to deal with a conflict of that nature. I think growth opportunity, there's many scenarios where a lateral partner may be feeling like they're being held back through no fault of their own, despite their best efforts to really advance and perhaps there are scenarios that other firms where the path towards growth is significantly higher and started being wanting to get on that trajectory. I think that there's other examples where, and certainly this past 12 months is, I think, is chock full of poignant examples where law firms may be doing, okay, or certainly below average, while certain individual attorneys are doing exceptionally well. And that particular attorney or that group of attorneys, wants to hitch itself to a wagon where, yeah, they're doing well, not just because of their own efforts, and not despite their current platform, but they want to do well, because of both their efforts and the platform where they're, you know, part of a platform that's a creative in nature, so that, you know, the paddles are all being rolled in the same direction. And, and they're taking full advantage of being at that platform.
Steve Fretzin 9:20
Now, this is going to be sort of an off ball question. And I know it flows into obviously what I do helping lawyers grow their books of business, but the difference between and compensation just to give my audience an idea of this lawyer that has a million dollar book and is an exceptional lawyer and is in his an area that's in need, versus a lawyer that has maybe 100, or 200,000, in portable book. What's the difference in compensation, just ballpark of someone that wants to move laterally? Let's say in 2021.
Bill Sugarman 9:54
So generally speaking, the difference would be Stark, I say generally speaking, because there's always exceptions and there are scenarios where even if somebody might have a book of business of 100, or 150, there very well may be opportunities with a firm that is so interested in that person's unique skill set or ability to come in and create an immediate impact that, you know, the book isn't necessarily relevant. That said, more often than not, and the vast majority of times the book is highly relevant. And the difference in compensation between somebody let's say, with $100,000 book, and a million dollar book, could be quite substantial.
Steve Fretzin 10:29
So So and again, I'm not trying to get exact numbers, but let's say that, you know, someone that has 100,000 and moves port that's portable, you know, their compensation at a small mid market firm could be, let's say, a couple 100 grand, okay. And someone with a million is coming in, and where would they fall ballpark?
Bill Sugarman 10:46
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly not inconceivable that their compensation could be certainly double that.
Steve Fretzin 10:51
Okay. Okay. And the reason that's such an important distinction, I think, is because lawyers may not realize whether they're 30, or 40, or 50, how important business development is in not only being able to move laterally, but also what it looks like for compensation, if they're trying to put money away for their family, for the 529. for the kids, they're looking to take trips, they're looking to have really control over their future, that book is really a critical component. And so while it's not everything, obviously, in my space, that's my, that's my job, right is to help them get to those bigger numbers. So they have the freedom flexibility, the portable book, that if things go really belly up with their firm, or that gets bought by a bigger firm that they're not real thrilled about, or again, conflicts happen. They're able to, you know, to move.
Bill Sugarman 11:40
I think that's an excellent point. And yes, certainly compensation is is in many ways directly correlated to book or vice versa. Additionally, you know, the ability to develop a book, you know, is more than just the immediate compensation, the ability to develop a book and have a well entrenched client base, allows an individual to really get to the next level, and, frankly, control their destiny in a material way. It you know, the ability to have that kind of entrench client base equals leverage equals freedom equals independence, financially and otherwise, and it puts one in a position where there's many, many more opportunities and doors open to that person, whether they stay at a VC firm, or whether they leave a VC firm, it's a, the business development piece is essentially a currency for that person to really open those doors that, you know, that I've described.
Steve Fretzin 12:48
So that leaks into a follow up question, which is, you know, made may seem obvious, maybe not. But why are lawyers then so hesitant to focus on that, if it's so important for their career for their sustainability, for their independence for their financial freedom? Why are they just comfortable doing everyone else's work and staying in that in that grind that they find themselves in many of them for years and years? And years?
Bill Sugarman 13:14
That's a very good question. I think that the majority of lawyers, you know, in this goes back to law school are trained in a way to think critically, to analyze critically and to act as lawyers, there's not a whole lot of education. Yeah, at the law school level, and frankly, probably not as much as there should be at the law firm level with respect to business development. And, and that, that training, that coaching, such that, I think it comes down to lawyers, just not knowing how to do that critical piece of the, of the job that's going to advance their careers. So it's not necessarily a matter of not wanting to do it, I think it's a matter of not knowing how to do it. But for those that do have that innate, you know, ability to want that desire to do it and the ability to do it. That becomes a very, very material piece in terms of creating a, an immediate, long term positive impact with respect to that ability, that person's ability to develop business, and therefore become highly beneficial for themselves and for their law firm.
Steve Fretzin 14:31
And I think that maybe there's a misconception because there's always been the rainmakers of the past the guys that had the gift of gab, the ladies that could go out and, and grow business and everything and just seems like second nature. And that's maybe how you and I sort of fell into owning our own businesses and sales is a huge component of what we both do. However, what lawyers may not realize, and I try to put this out there on a regular basis is that business development is a learned skill. mean you learned how to how How to run a trial you learn how to do depositions, you learn how to how to, you know, review a contract, it's all learned and business development doesn't have to be, you know, something that only, you know, the outrageous can do, right? It's, you know, glad handing at the country club. Just as an example, I work with some of the most introverted uncomfortable scientists, you know, IP, etc, engineers in the space, and they actually get crazy results, because they love the idea that we're putting process around sales and business development that we're putting steps in place. It's not something they have to wing it every day. And so I think whether you're you're reading books, whether you're listening to this podcast, whether you're, you know, reaching out to someone like me for an evaluation, or talking to bill and getting coached by Bill, whatever the case might be, I mean, it's it's not an inconceivable thing. It's something very real, that you just have to want it and want and have the desire. So let me let me leak that into the next question. What are reasons that an attorney might be rejected when trying to move laterally? And obviously, we know that that book size is a part of that. But what are some other other reasons why that maybe they're just not that they could get rejected?
Bill Sugarman 16:12
I think that's a really good question. I think first and foremost, it all comes down to the the interaction and dynamic within the interview process. Yeah, because we're talking about law firms and lawyers. Yeah, I can think of many examples of scenarios in which an attorney or group of attorneys were interviewing and everything was going swimmingly Well, with the first 14 people. And with the 15 person, maybe that person, maybe that candidate felt a little bit too comfortable, and said something a little bit off the cuff that rubbed that person the wrong way. And that person has happened to be an influencer. And all of a sudden game over. And so therefore, the moral of the story is, certainly you always want to be yourself. And you always want to be your most assertive, confident, assertive, enthusiastic, engaging version of yourself. But you don't ever want to get too comfortable. Because at the end of the day, you know, you're not having a conversation with your buddy, after an extra inning game at Wrigley Field, you are in an interview, and you can never forget that. So anytime you had any interaction with the law firm, you need to treat that as an interview. Again, I think it's important to definitely be yourself. You don't want to be someone you're not. But it's a measured approach. And it's got to be professional in nature all the time.
Steve Fretzin 17:24
Yeah, something that I also would would put out there is make sure if you're a lawyer looking to move laterally, you're going through the interviews, that you're also interviewing the firm, you know, people people think the grass is greener, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But you've got to do your due diligence to make sure you talk to enough people at the firm or that you have done your you know, research to know that that this is going to be the last place you go or one of the last places you go. And so I think you have to sometimes flip it on the firm. And and i'd love your opinion on that. Is that a good suggestion or bad suggestion?
Bill Sugarman 17:58
I think it's an excellent suggestion, if anything has got to be under the measured way? I think first and foremost, absolutely. The types of questions in the style of the questions. And the way they're asked by a candidate is very much a big factor in how they interview we're judges that that person, you know, are they thinking long term? I think thinking strategic? Are they separating themselves from others? Do they sound unique? Or are they just asking garden variety, vanilla questions that frankly, don't separate themselves from other and don't really get into the strategy or long term effect of how their role is going to play at the law firm. So I think on the one hand, it is very important for that candidate to ask really good, really thoughtful, really long term oriented questions. At the same time, you don't want to go too far with respect to sounding overly invasive, or putting that interviewer on the defensive, as if you were, you know, doing a cross examination in a courtroom. And so therefore, I think that it's a measured approach and light, a lot of things. It does require preparation, so that you are maximizing your probability of success while you're in there. And I think we do a really good job of coaching people on how to be themselves, but in a way where they're still presenting and elevating that probability of success, again, always wanting to be themselves, but being the most sort of engaging version of themselves. And asking, again, really good analytical, long term oriented strategic questions that allow the interviewer to really get a sense of, of how that person would fit in both from a team standpoint, and from a client facing standpoint.
Steve Fretzin 19:32
Got it. And here's here's another, you know, question that just popped into my head. Social media is, you know, out there for everybody to see. And there's a negative side, obviously, if if a firm is interviewing someone, and they go on their Facebook, and they see that they're totally outrageous or political or whatever, that might be a negative checkmark in their column in that so I want you to talk to that. And then the second part is what about someone who's proactively building a great brand around their content and what they're saying and how they're how they're, you know, building up their practice, apparent expertise, if you will, because their their social media is demonstrating regular content and expertise. So hit me with the How can it negatively impact someone on social media from from a lateral move to a positive?
Bill Sugarman 20:23
I think that's a great question. First and foremost, yes, in this day and age, social media is absolutely a critical piece in just one more Avenue one more Arena in which somebody could generate revenue, whether it's direct or indirect, and building that audience through good thoughtful content. That said, with respect to getting into, you know, I think political conversations and political content, you know, my opinion is that that is something that should probably be avoided, particularly in this day and age where there's such a polarization in the country, albeit, I think that that's going to be hopefully changing for the better going forward. It's just, there's, it's a classic case of a scenario where, yeah, yes, there could be upside, but there could also be significant downside, because you start having people, you know, disagreeing with you or, or feeling polarized. And, you know, what otherwise could be a potential client all of a sudden becomes the client or someone else, because they don't agree with your political views.
Steve Fretzin 21:32
Yeah, you don't you don't want to get you don't want to get real down on the my pillow guy. And next thing you know, you know, the managing partners like, Hey, man, I love those pillows.
Bill Sugarman 21:39
Yeah, absolutely. I look, my father once gave me great advice. My father is a labor and employment attorney still still practicing at the age of almost 19. Wow. The summer before, summer, before last fall. I was teaching tennis during the day in bartending and night. And the best advice he ever gave me. Before I started my bartending job was whatever you do, don't discuss politics or religion. Yeah. Why not? He said, you'll say it. Right?
Steve Fretzin 22:08
Yeah. I did ask a lawyer who's very successful, who does, you know, do political he goes, look, I'm at a stage in my career where I don't really care, you know? And I yeah, yeah, he's gotten enough money, and he's got enough notoriety. And he's doing great. And he's not, you know, responsible to the to the firm. He's not looking to move laterally. So he could do it. But for everyone else as humans, right, we got to be really careful about about what we do on social media. And then let's talk about the upside, though, because I do think that someone who has positively built themselves up on social media, they've got a following, they're putting out really intelligent content. Are you seeing that as a, as a real positive for for someone moving laterally or getting a job?
Bill Sugarman 22:49
Yeah, I think it just is one more area in which somebody has shown that they are an expert in an area, it's good marketing. And again, it's just one more Avenue by which they can generate a revenue, whether it be directly or indirectly, for themselves and for the law firm. And so I think that in this day and age, it's it's just another asset that, frankly, is going to keep growing in terms of importance, you know, as it becomes much more sort of prevalent.
Steve Fretzin 23:21
Got it. Got it. And let's wrap things up with with the final question. And, you know, I've known you for a number of years. And I'd like you to share how you're uniquely qualified to help someone make a good match. You've been doing this a long time. So what are you kind of what's your secret sauce? What do you bring into the table that's going to help somebody sort of have confidence that that you'd be the right recruiter to help them move laterally or for a firm to want to take you on to help find potential candidates?
Bill Sugarman 23:48
So I think one of the biggest pieces that separates us from other services is that we take a highly personalized approach. What I mean by that is, you know, we're not just saying, hey, john, I've got an opportunity based upon you looking your background. And yeah, by the way, you've got an interview Thursday, good luck. Rather, we take a very, very personalized approach in terms of, you know, really sitting down and identifying exactly what specifically we'll move the needle, short term and long term, substantively what will move the needle from a cultural standpoint? And ultimately, where do you want to be? And why do you want to be 5, 10, 20 years later? I think unless and until you take a very, very exhaustive, detailed approach on the who, what, why, where and when, you know, it's not going to work. I mean, these are these are major, major decision, probably the second most important decision you can make in your life. You know, it's centered around one's livelihood. And so therefore, it's got to be long term thinking in nature. It's got to be with a long term viewpoint. And it's got to be sort of an evolution, if you will, in terms of of that, that analytical process. I think having had the business development experience in my background, As well as the legal experience, again, as I mentioned, from being in house at a on Corporation, as well as other roles, has given us a unique approach in terms of really understanding the methodology by which one can conduct themselves throughout the interview process, in terms of specific ways in which to ask questions to elicit certain types of information to, as you mentioned earlier, not just have the firm that you but have you that the firm, but in a way, where it's actually giving a more positive perception of you as the candidate as opposed to the interview of feeling on the defensive. So I think that we do a really, really good job of not only on the front end, you know, identifying the specific components, they're going to move the needle and therefore, coming up with a very, very targeted approach, but also throughout the process, being able to not only, you know, debrief effectively with the candidate and the client, but being able to communicate on the back end, you sort of the the rationale as to, you know, why there should be a good fit substantively, and culturally or not, I mean, we're also very, you know, very much believers in, if we feel there's not a good fit with a potential candidate, and a client will make that known to, because at the end of the day, you know, we would much rather have long term relationships that are based upon good results, as opposed to, you know, results that we feel aren't going to work. And then all of a sudden, you know, it becomes messy for all parties involved later on, we're very much focused on the long term relationship with both the candidates and the clients, which is why we take such an exhaustive, personalized, engaging, interactive approach.
Steve Fretzin 26:50
Yeah, it sounds like the only way that this this works out well, for everybody is is a three way win. Right? You're you're making the right placement, and the candidate and the firm are both are both very happy, and see the Fed. And then the fit, you know, sticks long term. So let me ask you this and just kind of wrapping up people, people listening to this might say, you know, what, you know, I'm interested in seeing what's out there, or maybe there's some some some things going on that they may be interested. How do they get in touch with you, Bill? what's the what's the the digits that you could put out there to help to help people find you?
Bill Sugarman 27:23
Yeah, so they can contact us either directly on our website, which is www.Astrosearch. com, that's a s t o r search.com. Or you know, our phone number is 312-781-9000. We are a top Florida Wrigley building, and what everyone wants to come by God, probably the nicest view in the city, quite frankly. So it's a no, it's a little bit challenging during the pandemic, but come come mid year, things are things are gonna really open up and now we encourage people to come by and check us out.
Steve Fretzin 28:00
Beautiful, beautiful, listen, I appreciate you coming on the show and in sharing your expertise with my audience. And you know, I just wish you continued success. I know you don't need luck, because you're you're sort of the master at this thing. But thanks. Thanks again.
Bill Sugarman 28:14
Well, really appreciated. Steve, thank you for your time, your insight and really glad to be here. And thanks again for having me.
Steve Fretzin 28:21
Absolutely. And hey, listen, everybody. Hopefully this was helpful to give you some insights on you know, what does it take to to not only make it as a lawyer but to really be valuable if you want to move, move laterally with portable book? And, you know, Bill, thanks for the insights. Everybody. Listen, it's all about trying to be that lawyer, someone who's confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Listen, have a great day, be safe, take care.
Narrator 28:49
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes