In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Barry Zlotowicz discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"One of the biggest changes that you've seen in the last 20 years, is that the change of thinking of your law firm is just a practice, to thinking about your law firm as a business, and focusing and looking at business analytics and those kind of numbers." — Barry Zlotowicz
Connect with Barry Zlotowicz:
Facebook: LawFull Marketing
Website: LawFullMarketing.com
Instagram: @lawfull_marketing
YouTube: LawFull
LinkedIn: Barry Zlotowicz
Phone: 312-300-0783
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by
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Barry Zlotowicz 0:00
One of the biggest changes that you've seen in the last 20 years is the change of thinking of your law firm is just a practice, to thinking about your law firm really as a business and looking at business analytics and those kind of numbers.
Narrator 0:17
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:40
Hello there, everyone, and welcome to my show, be that lawyer. I'm Steve Fretzin. In and if you're a first time listener, I'll share a little bit about my background. Well, first off, I'm not a lawyer, I was recruited into the legal space back in 2008, when the recession hit. For the past 12 years, I've devoted all of my time and energy to one thing, and that's helping attorneys make more money and have the peace of mind that comes with having your own clients and driving a bigger and more sustainable book of business. Speaking of books, I've written three on legal business development, and continue to write monthly for the Chicago daily law bulletin. A very excited to share with you my guest today, which is Barry's lot of wits. He's the president of lawful marketing. Mary's a longtime attorney with a diverse experience in legal marketing, including law firm websites, online lead generation, social media, e newsletters, and much, much more. Welcome, Barry.
Barry Zlotowicz 1:30
Thanks for having me Steve,.
Steve Fretzin 1:32
Hey, absolutely. My pleasure, man. We're also friends. And it's just great to have you on here. And I thought is a fun way to kind of start us off if you wouldn't mind sharing some some details or maybe something interesting and fun about yourself. And then maybe we'll get into your more detailed bio.
Barry Zlotowicz 1:46
Okay, not the deep, dark secrets, but something fun.
Steve Fretzin 1:49
No, I know, some of the deep dark secrets. We're not gonna go there. But let's talk about something cool and interesting that you want to share with the audience.
Barry Zlotowicz 1:56
Yeah, sure. So let's see. So the one thing that I find interesting, and I'm really into fitness, and it's really a passion of mine, after being really out of shape for a long time. And so I got certified as a personal trainer, kind of in my spare time. And I was training and focusing my business on the weekends and early, early mornings on training seniors on functional exercises to kind of help them improve the quality of their life. So that's a little tidbit about something that I was really passionate about.
Steve Fretzin 2:24
Yeah, very cool. Very cool. And I think that probably helps you in, you know, how you run your business and dealing with with lawyers. And you know, maybe they're not, it may not be fitness, but it's it's maybe mental fitness as it relates to marketing, which we know they hate. And you know, they're not really drawn to so maybe give a little bit of your background as a lawyer and as a marketing professional.
Barry Zlotowicz 2:45
Sure. Well, I've been licensed for a long time. And, you know, I practiced and then I went to work for some legal industry, top companies, I went to work for LexisNexis, 20 years ago, and then Westlaw and Westlaw purchase fine law. And I worked for fine law selling lawyers, their very first websites, I mean, you know, 1819 years ago. And, you know, the funny thing is, I think I spent a lot of my time these days helping those same law firms with the same websites. I sold them 20 years ago. So yeah. And then I've gone back to practicing law, and then I've been doing my own marketing thing for a while now. And so I've really got a deep background in the legal industry. And that's one of the value ads, I think that I bring is that, you know, I'm a lawyer, so I kind of know what works and what doesn't work for solos and small law firms, and people seem to appreciate that.
Steve Fretzin 3:32
And when you think about marketing for law, I mean, what sort of things? Have you seen evolve? Since you got into it? You know, like you mentioned at 19 years ago, I mean, obviously, you know, websites still exist, but maybe it's, there's a lot of changes that have happened that maybe just talk through what those are?
Barry Zlotowicz 3:48
Oh, sure. Well, I you know, look, if you go back 1819 years, of course, you're talking about full page ads in the Yellow Pages, right at several $1,000 a month, and lots of them. And that whole industry has kind of gone to the wayside. So now people put their money primarily in digital marketing, although there still is some traditional marketing that is very beneficial for law firms to do. But on the digital marketing front, of course, it's it's essential for every firm to have a website that kind of accurately reflects the professionalism of their firm. And to utilize some form of digital marketing. I often hear people say that, you know, it's not it's not for me, it's like really, there's nothing within this realm that you can benefit from, whether it be a newsletter, or just having a kind of a storefront, a billboard online so that people can find you and confirm where you are. There's something for everybody within this realm. And that's what I'm trying to get the word out about.
Steve Fretzin 4:40
It as a business development coach for lawyers, you know, they always say things like, Oh, they never taught me this in law school, or, you know, where would I have learned any of this? And so I think marketing business development both are really challenging, especially in the legal space because it's just never been a part of what anyone wanted to really do. Engage with or get involved with, I think out of law school. So what are your thoughts on the challenges and kind of the mindsets of attorneys, and you know, maybe how they have to think about things moving forward in order to make sure they're, you know, successful and sustainable.
Barry Zlotowicz 5:14
You know, it's interesting. So one of the biggest changes that you've seen in the last 20 years is the change of thinking of your law firm is just a practice, to thinking about your law firm, really, as a business and looking at business analytics and those kind of numbers. So it's a changing of a mindset. It used to be, and you and I have talked about it with your dad and how he marketed his practice, which was non existent, the phone just rang and how people have to market their practice now, right? It's, it's really, it's a change in mindset that you have to take an attorney through these days. And that's the biggest change that I've seen. It's the mindset change. And the focus now is on analytics. And the nice thing about digital marketing is that it's very analytics driven. I mean, you can identify your ROI on everything that you're doing now. And using those kind of numbers to manage your business and identify where you want to market yourself is very important.
Steve Fretzin 6:05
Yeah, it really, it really is difficult for lawyers to kind of wrap their minds around. I mean, I guess the difference between you know, you, and I and I know lawyers have to be engaged with both of us. But I think from you know, one point, you know, if they're bringing you in, as an expert, it's because they want to sort of hand off the knowledge and the expert, they're like, they're like giving up control to someone who knows more and can do more. And actually, you know, do it for them, whether it's sending out a newsletter monthly, or whether it's posting social media or getting their their website set up, where on my end, I'm actually asking the attorney to learn and go out and execute on the field as a player doing business development. So I think they probably need both, but I but I think it's just interesting how different that you know, that I think maybe it's easier for them to work with you, because they, they may just have to shell out some money they as opposed to having to, to engage day in and day out, you know, with with me to go out and get business. The only thing anything to add to that.
Barry Zlotowicz 7:01
Yeah, I think you make a good point. However, the one thing I would say is that what I found is that because attorneys are so bright, that many of them like to be educated. And they like to know what's going on in their practice and where their money is going. So I spend a lot of time educating people about the things that they need to know, you said it earlier, they weren't taught this in law school, right? So they really don't know where to start from. So oftentimes, when I meet with people, we're starting from ground zero, and I like to spend time to educate them, so they know the things that they should focus on. And then we can run with it from there.
Steve Fretzin 7:35
Yeah, so that might be a good bouncing point to the next question I have for you, which is, you know, when you think about maybe the, let's just go with three to keep it simple, but like, what are the three top mistakes, or things that lawyers are just missing the boat on, as it relates to marketing that you work on with them every day, and we can make it more than three. But I think let's start with three and kind of see where that takes us?
Barry Zlotowicz 8:00
Well, you know, I can come up with two off the top of my head very quickly. The first one is using a Google business listing. And the reason I start with this one is because it's free, you know, Google provides a business listing to every single business, if you want it, you just have to claim it and utilize it. It's one of the best resources, a law firm or any business for that matter can use to market themselves, it's beneficial in two different situations, one would be a branded search. So oftentimes, when you search for yourself on the internet, you'll find that there are a lot of law firms running ads around your business name, and they show up when somebody searches for you, you need to own that first page, what's called the search engine results page, you need to own that page for your name. And Google business listing is one of the ways to do that. By the way, it's also called Google My Business. In addition to owning your own brand name, it's very beneficial for topic related searches or non branded searches. So if you're in downtown Chicago, and you search for a personal injury law firm, there's something called the Google three pack. And that's incredibly valuable territory, and you want your firm to be there. It's very challenging to do it a big city like Chicago, but it's incredibly beneficial. Those folks that are in the three pack are at the top of the search engine results page, and they get a huge amount of traffic. So the Google business listing is something I'm preaching to people constantly about utilizing. And then the other thing I think that law firms don't realize that traditional businesses do know is that it's all about building a list. Building a list of contacts in your database is critical, because you can market to those people on your own terms. And what I mean by that is, if you are doing search engine optimization, for example, or using Google ads, there's an intermediary between you and where you want to be Google. And if you're on Facebook and posting on Facebook, and you're doing organic posts, or you're using things Facebook ads, there's an intermediary between your new and where you want to be. But if you have a newsletter, and you're developing your own contact list, you can get your message to those people directly without any intermediary, which means you control the messaging, you control the cost. And that's why I think building a list is so critical.
Steve Fretzin 10:19
Yeah, and I've been a huge proponent of that myself, because as I as I continue to, you know, grow my business and continue to want to, you know, reach out to lawyers nationally, whether it's finding them on LinkedIn, and bringing them over to my database, or networking and bringing them over to my database, I'm building this master list, I call it my master attorney list, really. And it helps me when I send out my bi monthly newsletter, that I'm sending it to a very targeted list of people that seem very interested in what I'm sharing the content, the education, the video, whatever it is that I'm sending out. And then of course, the best part from my perspective very you could probably speak to this better than me, is the analytics that I see from that. So the other thing about that contact list in that newsletter is, I can then see directly who opened what and what they're looking at within my newsletter, and who's kind of a regular viewer and, and then maybe do some drip marketing, where I'm actually sending them a copy of my ebook, or I'm sending them something as a next step, which could actually drive them to get closer to me as a potential client. Can you want to speak to that for a moment?
Barry Zlotowicz 11:24
Well, and I think, what's great about what you just said, and I know you do this, and I love it is that that's really thinking like a business person, right. And law firms have have kind of hesitated doing that, because of our history of ban on solicitation, or whatever it might be. But using the analytics that you get, even in a simple email management solution, like a constant contact, or a MailChimp is incredibly valuable, you can see who's opening up what emails, you can see what they're clicking on. And that gives you an indication about what they're interested in, and provide you an opportunity to follow up with them, or to send them more information on that topic. So I think that's extremely valuable.
Steve Fretzin 12:02
And you're right on it. So I appreciate that. And again, you know, we both practice what we preach, I think, you know, we've got to be doing what we're teaching, right for us to be credible. The other thing that I wanted to bring up, I'd asked you for three tips. And I think there's one that you would have gone to immediately that I just want to bring up is, is really having an effective website, and the idea that a lot of the websites we see on the internet are pretty weak and pretty outdated. And, you know, what should? What are two or three things that a website should accomplish? In order to be successful for the lawyer or the small firm, for example? You know, in a number of ways?
Barry Zlotowicz 12:41
Sure, sure. Well, as you know, it used to be that a website, when they first started out were an option, right. And I don't think they're an option anymore, you know that having a website is ubiquitous to all businesses. So there's two things you can do with a website. One is use it as a lead generation tool. And the other is a website can be sort of a source of confirmation kind of a billboard, sort of somebody gets referred to you, they can go online, find you and see information about you. So the thing that I always say to law firms is, or ask them, the question is, do you think your website reflects the level of professionalism that you provide to your clientele? If it does, fantastic. And if it doesn't, you ought to do something about it. And the way you know, if it's working or not it compared to your competitors, it's real simple. You know, who you're competing with on a daily basis, pull up both websites, take a look at those websites, take a look at your competitors and look at yours. If you were an objective consumer, and you looked at those two websites, who would you call? It's the same thing as looking at a restaurant, right? You go up to two restaurants and one's all beaten up and broken down and it looks terrible. And the other one looks nice and clean and has plants and it looks like it's got great food, which restaurant would you choose? It's the same concept. The same thing applies for lawyer. So I do think it's critical for every law firm, to have a very professional looking website, whether you're using it for lead generation purposes, or just as a billboard, to a natural presence on the web.
Steve Fretzin 14:07
And I think that there's a lot of lawyers that say, Well, listen, I don't want to get any business off the web, because those people aren't really, you know, I'm doing high level, you know, transactional work, or I'm doing high level litigation with big corporations, they're not going to use the internet. So I think that leads to your point about validation about professionalism, and making sure that you're you're looking the part as opposed to that broken down, you know, thing where, again, you know, you're just, it's not complete, and people aren't going to want to talk to, you know, a restaurant, let alone or a lawyer If it isn't, if it isn't complete and accurate and giving the best representation.
Barry Zlotowicz 14:44
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. So if you're in the b2c industry, right, if you're a personal injury attorney, bankruptcy, criminal family, so any of those, and those are consumers who are looking and those folks are pretty good about developing their websites, but the business attorney or somebody who works with General Counsel, they're going to say to me, as a general counsel really going to go online and type in Chicago intellectual property attorney, probably not. However, if they see your name on a promotion, if they are referred to you, they are going to go online and look you up. And that is why your website needs to provide a professional presence in those circumstances.
Steve Fretzin 15:20
The thing that bothers me most is, there was a time where I was working with you, and we were, you know, doing some web site work together, and I met with a managing partner, and his website is brutal. And I said to him, you know, we're talking about all these things, and he knows there's money involved in, you know, that scares him. But he said, you know, listen, if I want to talk to someone, I go to their website, I find the phone number, and I make the call. And that's what I, you know, it takes me 10 seconds, and I'm done. And that's what I use a website for. And it just struck me as so awful, that he's not realizing that he's not everybody. And more importantly, you know, he's in heavy recruitment phase, like he wants to grow his firm like crazy. And there's no diversity, there's no proper messaging, or imagery or anything on his website, that a millennial or anyone in their 30s, or 40s, would see and say, that's a firm I want to go work for. That's, that's a progressive, you know, culturally sound, you know, firm that I wanted, that I want to be a part of, it would just turn off every potential candidate, and he's trying to recruit, so he just wasn't seeing kind of not only the big picture, but even the small picture. And it's almost like you can't you can't explain that to someone if they don't get it. They don't get it sometimes.
Barry Zlotowicz 16:39
Yeah, you know, that's an interesting, I guess I call that a generational perception of the internet. Right? Yeah, that perception is not really based in reality as to how the majority of people use the web, particularly the younger generation, who are becoming our customers now, right, Millennials have long been our customers. But it's interesting, because the majority of my clients are actually over 40, or 45 years old. And the thing about them is they know, they don't know the technology. But they do know, they're astute enough to know that they've got 25 years of practice left in and most likely, and they are going to have to update what they're doing online and change their business practices, if they want to compete with those people coming up beneath them. And so that's kind of the target market for me is somebody who knows I'm going to be practicing for a long time knows they have to update what they're doing, and doesn't know where to start with it.
Steve Fretzin 17:31
Yeah, exactly. And I guess one thing I'd love for you to share is some type of maybe a success story or something where you had someone whose marketing was, you know, way below, you know, far away below, you know, the level, and the types of things that you would go in and evaluate, and then what you actually, you know, got commitment from them to engage in and how that has helped them and growing their, you know, their presence or their recruitment or their lead generation, or whatever it may be, just share that. So people get not only a better idea of what you do, but the kinds of changes that can occur when it's done properly.
Barry Zlotowicz 18:06
Sure. Well, I've got a great example from just yesterday, I met with a client out here in the suburbs here in Illinois, we're in the northern suburbs. And he's got a very niche estate planning practice. He hired a website development company, it's very popular within the legal industry, but it's a proprietary website, which means that he was stuck using their platform, and they would let our company in to modify things on his website. So he's kind of stuck on it. So what do we do, we kind of did an end around, instead of going into changing his website, so we decided to use Google ads to drive traffic to a landing page. And the Google ads are really reasonably priced. People have the sense that all pay per click on Google is $150. a click and yeah, in personal injury, you're probably right or in trucking accidents. But in this niche estate planning area, it was not well, within the first month for this guy, we got him but his niche practice area, I don't want to say what it is, but that he was focusing on, we got him a fee of $10,000. Well, that paid for the first 10 months of his marketing. And since then, he's gotten case after case, including this week, where he got another fee of 80 $500. So his return on investment has been five or six to one in just the first seven months. So it's a it's an example of using kind of a niche part of digital marketing, not changing the website at all, but still driving business in a way that is very profitable for this firm.
Steve Fretzin 19:34
So it sounds like one of the things that you really try to do is not only evaluate the attorneys and the law firms that you're engaging in to figure out, you know, where maybe the low hanging fruit is or where that where the money might be found. But then doing whatever creatively work around or whatever to help them accomplish a goal. Even if, for example, there's a challenge with, you know, taking control of a website because someone's got a proprietary software.
Barry Zlotowicz 19:58
That is exactly What we do? So you taught me this, okay? You told me about the book Blue Ocean Strategy. And what I do when I speak with or meet with every single client is we look at who their competition is and where we shouldn't compete. So for him, it was SEO, we can't do it because we can't get into his website. But where is the blue ocean where it's a clear water without that's not bloody red? And where can we go attack? And because we did that it's worked perfectly. How do we tried to compete for SEO for, you know, a state planning attorney Chicago type of searches, we would never have been competing, it would have taken a couple years at several $1,000 a month. And instead, for a modest budget, we were fine, we were able to find a place for them to compete, and it's worked perfectly.
Steve Fretzin 20:45
Yeah, I think that's really what maybe separates you from a lot of the agencies that are out there is that personal attention, and in the idea that you're going to try to search for that nugget, as opposed to selling some kind of cookie cutter website or cookie cutter solution at you know, exorbitant numbers, I think you you're able to find an efficient, effective, cost effective way to do it. And I think that's, that's one of the things that was reasons I keep referring you people because, you know, I know they're going to get taken care of, and on top of that, you know, you care about them, and you really do and you're trying to find, you know, the best way to get them results. That's, I know, that means a lot to you.
Barry Zlotowicz 21:22
It does. Yeah, I mean, you know, listen, I was a, I was an attorney, you know, I was a solo, I know what it's like to spend money on marketing, and it doesn't work. It's incredibly frustrating. And you've got a limited budget. So I don't sell plants, I don't have a, you know, it's $3,000 a month, and that's it, you're gonna get a website, and we're gonna do SEO, and this is that I try to put together a package that's ideally suited for whoever I'm working with. And for some people, it's a blog article, and managing the directory is a month. And for other law firms, it's full on SEO and website development. So it's primarily I think it's because of the niche, you know, I'm working with solos and small law firms, perhaps it would be different if I work with much bigger law firms that wanted and was able were able to pay that package. But my focus is customized assistance to this kind of niche that I'm working with.
Steve Fretzin 22:10
And I think it's really, really necessary, because that's the niche that needs the most help and needs the most sort of like partnership with someone like you to accomplish things and not feel like they're being hung out to dry. So, you know, kudos to you and in what you've been doing lately with these clients. One thing I also wanted to bring up, because I know that I get a lot of, I don't know if it's negativity, or just challenges with social media. And I'm also, you know, someone who is challenged by social media, I post general three times a week and I, I mix it up, and I'm always trying new things to try to figure out, you know, what's going to work and what's what's going to get people's attention. And I'm not a publicity hog, I don't think and I'm not, you know, trying to, you know, put Facebook posts on LinkedIn and trying to talk about my personal life and that type of thing. But are there things that you're finding on so because I know you do a ton of social media for yourself and for some of your clients? Are there things that you suggest on social media that you found are either important, or that work for lawyers and solos and small practices?
Barry Zlotowicz 23:15
Yeah, there there are. So Well, the first thing, let's take a step back for a second. The first thing is, I would tell people to identify their target market, who is your avatar? Who is the person that you want to target? Then I would say, okay, where is that person? So if you're targeting people in it, let's say you're a female divorce attorney in Chicago, right? doing a lot of marketing on LinkedIn doesn't make a lot of sense for you. I mean, it's beneficial if you want to get referrals from other lawyers, but that's most likely not where your clientele is. Now, Facebook and Instagram may be a great market for you. So identifying the channel that's going to work best for your target market is ideal. So the first and most important thing, I think, is identifying your target market and where they are, I have a business law firm here in Chicago, and they only want to publish on LinkedIn. I convince them also to publish on their Google business listing, because in this day and age publishing on that, Google My Business is critical. But I would say that's the key is identify your target market. Where are they? And what's your message to them and start to publish there, by the way, I like a lot what you do in terms of your social media posts. It's always trial and error, some things work, and some things simply don't work. But if you don't try it, you'll never know.
Steve Fretzin 24:32
Yeah, I mean, just I do some interesting benefits, call it you know, if we call it a B testing or beta testing, but I, I put out like an image with a topic and a question on business development. And maybe I get, you know, three to 400 views, maybe one like and really that's it. And then, you know, just recently, I did sort of a rant where I went off about something on business development, and that got a ton of attention. Then I actually sent the link, this was key This is so this will be my tip on social media that worked for me recently is I took that, that posting as a link incentive out to a bunch of my clients, who then commented on it and shared it and liked it. And I went from like, you know, normally, again, three 400 views to like three or 4000 views with, you know, 20 likes and 15 comments, and it just, like, boosted it up on LinkedIn, and got a lot more attention than maybe a traditional post. So that sort of that the thing that I think, you know, changed for me was, you know, sharing that link with people that are sort of in my corner, or that are clients of mine that have gotten results with my programs and things like that, and asking them to sort of help me out. And then they start asking me to share, you know, share their stuff. And I'm like, absolutely, yeah, let's let's, you know, let's help each other. This is a, you know, this is a way to get things boosted on on LinkedIn, for example, you know, to benefit one another. So that's just an example.
Barry Zlotowicz 26:01
Yeah, that you know, it's funny people forget this, okay. Social media, is meant to be social. Yeah, right. of social media. We are bombarded with ads every day. It's like, it's like being in the middle of Times Square. And there are billboards going off with Coca Cola signs, and Broadway shows all around us. 24. Seven, nowadays, it's on our phone, it's on our computer, it's everywhere we go. So how do you stand out? Well, one of the best ways to stand out as be social. And by the way, Google and all these networks want you to be social, they're measuring user engagement, who's talking to who are their comments, I have a YouTube channel, I get 15 comments a week questions mostly about various things? And I answer every single one of them because YouTube wants you to be social. They're measuring user engagement. And the way you're doing it is you're talking about sharing on LinkedIn. The other thing that you do is I hosted a networking event this week, and I posted a picture of it always take a picture no matter what you do, because people love images on social media, much more so than content. And I tagged every single person that was at that event. Well, what do I do by doing that I get in their news feeds, and their news feeds, news feeds, connects to another 500 people. And that multiplies the engagement of my single simple post to my 500 connections to 2500 connections and gets my name out there as well as everybody else's. So being social tagging and so forth on social media is very important.
Steve Fretzin 27:31
Yeah. So So you've got I mean, social media websites, newsletters, I mean, this is a little overwhelming, I think they're probably a lot of lawyers that just blow it off and shouldn't, or lawyers that are using a maybe a current vendor that's just taking them for a ride and isn't really getting in and digging out, you know, how they should be investing in, what's the best way to do it. So if people want to get in touch with you to talk with you directly about your services, and having some kind of evaluation on what they're currently doing, whether it's nothing, or whether it's lots that they maybe are doing things they shouldn't be doing and blowing through dollars? How would they contact you? What are some of the ways that people can reach out to you very?
Barry Zlotowicz 28:12
Well, you know, the easiest way is just to pick up the phone and give me a call to be honest with you. Ithink it's kind of a lost art, right? I mean, I know you talk about this, but intake, for example, is a lost art. And so just pick up the phone and give me a call my office number is 312-300-0783. And if that doesn't work for you to just want to look me up first, you can go to lawful marketing, comm LA, WSU Ll marketing calm.
Steve Fretzin 28:39
And then they'll have access to not only learn about you more, but also to the contact page to, you know, send you a contact and say, hey, let's let's get together and talk about you know, my business. Sure. Yeah. So listen, everybody, this is this has been great, Barry, you're amazing. I continue to, you know, try to find lawyers that are looking for that personalized attention and someone that's going to, that's going to care. And that's been you as long as I've known you. So I'm going to continue to try to you know, make sure people are talking to the right person. That's you. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And for everybody out there listening, you know, business development, marketing, it's the business of law. It's not just about being a great practitioner, man. So, you know, you really want to look at these things and try to find best practices on both ends. And, you know, I hope that you guys got some great takeaways from our show today. You know, remember it be that lawyer, it's about being, you know, sustainable and organized and being a Rainmaker and really, you know, being that lawyer, as long as you're going to be in law, you might as well make money and, and live a full life and have a great time as well. So Barry, thanks again and everybody. Thanks for being here today. We'll see you next time.
Narrator 29:56
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. life change strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.