In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Anita Ventrelli discuss:
Key Takeaways:
"We are always better when we are passionate about something." — Anita Ventrelli
Connect with Anita Ventrelli:
Website: sdflaw.com
Professional Bio: Anita Ventrelli
Blog: FamilyLawTopics.com
LinkedIn: Anita Ventrelli
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Anita Ventrelli 0:00
You'd be surprised and issue doesn't go their way. But if they know that their story was told effectively, and that you did everything you could, they're not sitting there getting mad at the lawyer. They know they're not going to win everything. But if you don't look like you try and you don't appear confident, people definitely pick up on that.
Narrator 0:26
You're listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretzin!
Steve Fretzin 0:48
Welcome, everybody to be that lawyer. I'm your host, Steve Fretzin. I want to say that I'm excited and thrilled to have not only a friend of mine, a client of mine, but one of Chicago lands, top Family Lawyers, a need eventually of Schiller to come to reflect with me today. Good morning, Anita. How are you?
Anita Ventrelli 1:07
Morning, Steve. All good here.
Steve Fretzin 1:09
Awesome. Awesome. So I didn't do any justice whatsoever on the intro, so I thought it'd be great if you could give people a little background on you and your law firm and how you help people.
Anita Ventrelli 1:20
Okay, well, she'll go to Kanto and flag is the largest firm that concentrates its practice in family law in the entire United States. We cover all aspects of Family Law, whether it's divorces, eternity, prenuptial agreements, post nuptial agreements, consulting with businesses who want to be sure that their business agreements don't create unintended consequences, assisting estate planners with the interface between divorce and estate planning. I've been with that firm since 1988. I started there as a law clerk, and eventually became work my way through the stages of becoming a senior partner. So that's really what we do. And the way we do it is a very individualized team approach to every case that treats every situation as it should be treated individually.
Steve Fretzin 2:16
Got it? Was there a specific point or experience in your life that kind of directed you where you went, you know, personally or in business?
Anita Ventrelli 2:24
Well, I think things that contributed were, my family was medical people. My dad was a physician, my mother's a nurse. And at some point, I think there was consideration that I might do something medical. But when I was on medical explorers tour of the hospital, and I passed out in the dialysis unit, I pretty much figured medical without.
Steve Fretzin 2:44
That that gave you the answer right there.
Anita Ventrelli 2:48
So after that, I took a business law course in my sophomore year motherhood quality. And that business law course really opened my eyes to how many ways people can make mistakes just by what they don't know about the law and how legal things work.
Steve Fretzin 3:06
Right, right. One thing that I, you know, have observed about you is just been your commitment to not only your clients, but also just relationships in general, you seem to, you know, take them very seriously. And are there some things that you focus on? I think it happens more for you naturally, but you maybe you could share a little bit about how you, you know, keep and maintain and build relationships.
Anita Ventrelli 3:31
I think that as I've grown in my practice, I've had to grow in communication skills. And I've grown to the point where as soon as my thought process takes me into what I quote, unquote, should be doing, I realized that whatever that is, isn't what I want to be doing. And we're always better when we're passionate about what we're doing, whether it's serving a client, whether it's networking, no matter what it is. So I think that's the biggest, that's the biggest consciousness raising I've had as I've grown in practice.
Steve Fretzin 4:09
Yeah. And I think being passionate about what you do and enjoying what you do is certainly, you know, a big factor and then, but I just, I don't know, I, I've observed again, that you you just have a certain way about you in how you interact with people, where you just you just maybe it's that you ask a lot of questions, or you just seem genuinely interested in them in their lives. Is that something that you've always sort of had a had a, you know, an idea about?
Anita Ventrelli 4:35
Well, it's, I'd say yes, since I started in the practice, one of the things I was fortunate enough to be able to do was spend a lot of time with our one of our founding partners, Joe du canto he passed away some years ago. But Joe was very big on communication and I marveled at his ability to conduct an entire initial interview with somebody not taking a single note, and then afterward to generate a three Your four page memo that didn't just talk about the day they got married and how old their kids were. But it really discussed their personality, how they make decisions, what what things were important to them. So the law is the law is a structure. And if the law is it doesn't, it doesn't tell you how to factor in the human emotion component. So asking the question, why becomes really critical. If you don't know why somebody wants something, if you don't know why somebody's seeing you why they picked you, you don't know what they're expecting you to do. So really drilling down into, why are you saying in my office, you can't presume it's always a divorce? Why do you think that your spouse is doing what they're doing? learning the why behind what's going on, will help you avoid the kind of miscommunication where you achieve what you think is a wonderful result, and your client isn't happy, sort of like when you're done brings the dead rabbit to your doorstep, and you completely freak out and the dog thinks that you should be pleased as punch.
Steve Fretzin 6:15
Right. Right. And I think what one of the things that you're sort of getting at that we we've talked about is, you know, really getting down to, you know, peel that onion away and try to understand the why, but also, you know, what's the driving force, you know, behind someone's decision to either get a divorce or, or, you know, leave a spouse and and the better questions you ask, and the deeper you can go, I think that's, you know, that's a big factor to not only understanding the client, but also, you know, maybe generating, you know, the truth and the reality about their situation, maybe more than they had considered, you know, prior to talking with you.
Anita Ventrelli 6:54
Yeah, you know, some people come in, and they're very self aware, other people come in, and they tell you why they're there. And it becomes pretty evident as you listen to them speak, that maybe there are questions they're avoiding, or they feel like they again, that word should do something because family and friends are telling them they should do something, when they don't really want to do it and getting it why they don't want to do it will help you make sure they get all the right input because people's misapprehension about divorces. And what we do in family law is that they walk in, they tell us the facts, and we immediately write a prescription and that there's only one prescription. And that one prescription will then stay the same throughout their entire case. It just doesn't work that way. And I think one of the biggest things, you know, I don't encourage people to change lawyers. But when I get people who are working with someone else who come in to see me, the biggest turnoff that they talk about, is when they feel like the lawyer stop listening to them after the first five minutes, the lawyer just wants to retainer in the door, they want to draft a petition for divorce and get on with it. Nobody likes to feel like they're a cookie cutter.
Steve Fretzin 8:10
Right. And I think that's, that's really important, because you know, people are unique, their situations are unique, and how you might look at a particular angle of a case, whether they should move forward, not or something in the middle, you know, that's all, you know, things that have to come out during the during the initial meeting. So you know, kind of what direction to take. And it's not cookie cutter. And I think people that think that it is, you know, maybe you know, maybe they're just they're out for a buck, which is, you know, certainly not the right way to approach you know, anything, especially something that you know, where you've got someone's life on the line, as far as you know, their future. So let me ask you this. Another part of being a great lawyer is, you know, continuing to develop your brand, develop relationships. And so what are some of the main strategies or things that you're doing to maintain and grow your law, practice your relationships, you know, your referral sources? I know, you've got some specific things that you're doing that I think would be interesting to the audience listening, you know, to hear what you're up to.
Anita Ventrelli 9:14
I think one of the biggest things that I'm enjoying doing lately is more public education. The things that people think that drive them in deciding whether or not to get a divorce, in deciding even how to manage their marriage. It's really shocking how little people do know and I suppose the best example is people who go into do joint estate plans with a spouse. They rarely get counseled on the ramifications of the estate plan, if they're going to get divorced. An easy example is the couple who has you know, $20 million and they decide to gift away a significant portion of it to minimize estate and gift taxes. As soon as you do that, you've removed that property from the marital estate. So if you get divorced, you can't roll back the clock and undo irrevocable estate planning. A lot of people don't know that. So a very organic situation developed where I finally face to face met a real estate broker that I enjoyed working with, when we dealt just by telephone with one another. That turned into a panel discussion for a group of women that included an employment attorney, a financial planner, myself and then this realtor. So lots of different perspectives and lots of different angles, to try to help people understand where each type of profession comes into decision making, not just to get or not to get a divorce, but how to run your life. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin 10:51
So it's, it's, it's, you know, clear that, you know, we've got to we've got to treat people differently, we've got to be a good listener, we've got to step up and, you know, get our name out there and presenting pod, you're doing my show. So that's it, you know, way, writing speaking, what are some of the things that you do internally as it relates to relationship building, that that's been effective for you.
Anita Ventrelli 11:15
Learning to recognize that the most important feature for me to be successful in a relationship with anybody that I'm dealing with, is that it feels natural to talk to them, I look forward to talking to them, I don't see their email pop up and go, Oh, dear god, I want no part of that. It's okay to say no, it's okay. To say, you know what, I don't think you and I have a fit somebody invites me to connect on LinkedIn, and then wants to get into an area, for example, I don't do. I'm not the one that selects vendors for our law firm. So if somebody wants to talk to me about a new computer system, I upfront and tell him that I'm not the right person to do that. People who you get to know organically end up being the referral sources that I think we all overlook. So through our work together, I've really become much more sensitized to how many people refer cases to me, that aren't necessarily the people that when I think about it, I think of them as friends, not as referral sources. And that's, that was a real paradigm shifts, realizing how much fun I was having with people that I know and have gotten to know. And I'm getting to know. So it doesn't really feel like business development is work.
Steve Fretzin 12:35
Yeah, and again, if you can make business development, a natural part of your day, a natural part of how you do business, and how you just, you know, you're just naturally authentic. And in building relationships, good things are gonna come your way, it doesn't have to be, you know, a forced, you know, a forced experiment. Obviously, some people feel networking and attending networking events and things are, are sort of forced, but it doesn't have to be you just have to have an attitude that, you know, this is it's fun to meet new people, it's fun to hear their stories, and it's interesting and doesn't mean you have to become best friends with everyone you meet. And it doesn't mean that everyone you meet is going to be a significant strategic partner for you referring you 10 deals a year, I think it's going to vary, but you have to have the right attitude about it and be open to, you know, what's next. And who know, and people, you know, I think that's a that's something that most attorneys need to kind of come to grips with that if it becomes more natural, then it's not worth so much. You know, it's not networking, you know, it becomes you know, I don't know, there's not another word for that. But, you know, net funding, you know, but that's, that's the way to go. And that way, you're, you're doing it in a more enjoyable environment, as opposed to making something that's that's forced.
Anita Ventrelli 13:49
I also think that even if we don't label it as such, I think that anybody who's confronted with the idea of networking, gets anxious, because let's face it, when you and I met, I don't I don't think I had 10 people that I could say, yes, these people are going to need to Steve to help them with their business development. We all immediately think of the easy, the easy, obvious answer is we can help each other by sending each other clients. Well, clients have to become available. It's not as though they're in the grocery store for me to go pick them up and bring them over to your office. So coming up with the things that are a value that we can give to each other in our networking relationship. That's where you can always give someone a piece of your knowledge about your own profession. You can always put people on lists for events that you you or your firm host. You can also be a good friend, when somebody invites you to have that event. You go to the event you tell yourself I'm not going because I think I'm going to meet 20 people who are going to refer me cases I'm going to go Because my friend asked me to come to something, it's important to them in their organization, that the event be a fun thing, that's a success. And if my just going there can help them do that, then I'm helping with something.
Steve Fretzin 15:14
So it's, I think it's having an air of, of, of giving and helping and in, you know, just not providing value for everybody, but But definitely, you know, stepping up for for people in your, in your, you know, in your contact list or that are your stronger, you know, connections. And I think that develops, you know, either a sense of reciprocation or sense of relationship or a sense of collegiality that allows a relationship to blossom over time. And not every relationship needs to happen overnight. So I think there's, there's definitely something to be said about, about how we help others. And if we do enough of that, you know, the saying is, is that, you know, things will come back to you in spades. So, that's important, are there other things that you would like to share with attorneys that are listening that you have seen or that you've done that that are important at growing a law practice and building a sustainable law practice?
Anita Ventrelli 16:12
I think the most important thing, particularly in this day and age, there are a lot of lawyers out there who, like me have had the benefit of being involved with founding partners, who did a lot to create our practice tools, whether it's a form that they use for certain kinds of petition, whether it's a body of research, we have to remind ourselves all the time, that the way to be the best lawyer is not to take things for granted, it's to look at every problem and see where it's unique. And to not just treat things like check the box alternatives to be the best way or you really have to want to master the law, you really have to want to tell somebody story effectively, at least in our area. If you're going to put on a trial, you want the trial to look sleek and efficient. There are people who don't prepare for their trials. And the trial preparation starts with the very initial interview, the expectations you set, the things you do along the way to adjust for things that you learn. Oh, yes, the theory I thought was going to work in the first meeting isn't going to work, because now I have a full set of facts and the facts don't support it. And we, as lawyers, I think, have such a deep desire to get our clients what they want, then instead of sharing more with them, some people share less. I tell people in the initial consultation, I worry early, I worry often, and I never worried by myself. So if something comes up on your case to be worried about, you will hear about it. You can't be afraid to tell people that something they very badly want to work probably won't work, doesn't mean you won't try. But when people see you looking at showing them all the research you did all the analysis you did, and helping them make a decision about whether to take it forward in one of three different ways. The caring can't help but show. So if you care and you're thorough, and you wake up every morning, when you finish something and say, I know there's not one other thing I could have done to have made that better. You lessen your anxiety. When you're less anxious, you communicate better, you breathe easier, and you just absolutely exude confidence. And it's confidence that came from really doing the homework really getting to know what the person wanted. There are people out there who you'd be surprised. An issue doesn't go their way. But if they know that their story was told effectively, and that you did everything you could, they're not sitting there getting mad at the lawyer, they know they're not going to win everything. But if you don't look like you try and you don't appear confident, people definitely pick up on that.
Steve Fretzin 18:59
Yeah, so there's a lot to unpack there confidence through preparation through making effort. Again, just just that the ability to be a great lawyer is sort of the most important part of building a practice and then supporting that and, you know, after the fact is, you know, giving to others. And when you're meeting with people listening, understanding me there's so much that goes into not only developing a great client relationship, but then you know, just you know, referral source relationships, it's it's a lot of the same, you know, listening, understanding, giving, helping, those are all, you know, key elements, and I don't think most lawyers spend enough time either thinking about that or actually planning for it. I know you and I have talked about, you know, getting lists together and trying to think about, you know, who maybe are A's or B's or C's are as it relates to our connections, our clients, our friends, and it's not that we're trying to treat people differently, but it's understanding that you know, the relationships that we've taken the time to develop through being a great lawyer For being a great networker, you know, they have to continue to be managed. And we didn't really get into that too much. But the idea, I think it relates to everything you've set up to that point. And so that's, that's really, then it's, then it's what you do with it, you know, after the fact how do you keep it keep the momentum going with the clients and the strategic partners to make that those relationships, you know, stand out long term?
Anita Ventrelli 20:22
Yeah, well, part of it to list making make sure that you don't forget anybody. I can't tell you how many times my husband has a cousin that we don't see very often, where I would go ahead and put together the email list for the Thanksgiving invitation. And she would always slip under my radar. So keeping lists helps me keep people that I want to keep Top of Mind on top of my mind, because I'll see articles, I had a friend who practices immigration law, who asked me sort of an oddball question during the pandemic about getting married over zoom, and where everybody had to be geographically. And it was a totally fun puzzle to work on. And I worked on it with him and his his colleague, and just knowing that that's something of interest to them, as I then later on, started seeing articles in the papers about zoom marriages, I would send them off to those guys. Yeah, because I always appreciate it. When someone says yes to me, you called me and you asked me about this, and expressing interest in it, and then they see something, and they send it to me it increasing our collective knowledge helps us all work so much better together.
Steve Fretzin 21:41
Yeah, no, there's no doubt collaboration is is an important, you know, important element in any industry and in law, you know, I think it's probably, you know, next to maybe medical, you know, one of the most important, you know, ways to continue to understand the law and dissect it and improve it right and try new things. There's obviously a lot of changes going on right now. And so, with the courts, you know, some courts closed and things like that, you've got to, you've got to look at collaboration, for sure. something I'd like to wrap up our chat today is with a segment I'd like to call they never taught me this in law school. And is there one thing that you would say they never taught in law school they wish you did, and that maybe every young lawyer coming out of law school needs to know.
Anita Ventrelli 22:25
They never taught us business development.
Steve Fretzin 22:27
Well, okay. It's pretty straightforward. That should change, I think, I think they're trying to change and maybe teach more relationships and networking. But I don't think you know, I've heard of too much as far as formalized programs. So what part of business development would you say, other than all of it, that that would be important for young lawyers coming out of law school for them to, for them to learn right away?
Anita Ventrelli 22:50
I think they need to know that law, even though it is a profession. It is also a business made more complicated by ethical rules and principles that govern how we do business. And that we have to practice within the bounds of the laws and the rules that don't really allow for clear outcome projection. So young lawyers need to realize that developing relationships early on gives you the platform to showcase your talent, you have to develop the talent, but then you have to showcase it. So many young lawyers think all they have to do is go into their law firm, put in their billable hours on the clients, other people bring in and do a good job. And whereas that was enough, at a point in time, it's no longer enough. So developing yourself to be solid, making yourself visible by doing things like agreeing to speak, lots of people don't like to speak at continuing legal education presentations. They don't like the preparation of written materials. But I started doing Bar Association work in 1993, by going to meetings, got myself into some presentations. And now one of the things that I think is my strongest feature as a strategic partner for somebody else, is that there's pretty much no state in the 50 where I can't find somebody a family law attorney that I would trust to handle a family law case for my own family member. And that's the getting to know people. And I can honestly say I have never had a referral I've made where the client comes back to me and says, You referred me to this person and they did a terrible job and they didn't call me back and they're not responsive.
Steve Fretzin 24:40
Yeah, well, that's, that's, you know, a critical part of networking is making sure that you have people around you that are, you know, highly referable and in competence. And the biggest one of the biggest mistakes people make in networking is not building the right structure around them and then either not knowing where to send somebody which I don't think is a great a great situation because you're not really adding value if you can't give people the right direction to go. And then the other part of it is giving, you know, a family member or or someone you know, to someone who isn't competent. And then you know, dealing with the backlash. And that's happened to me on a bunch of occasions, I joke about a few of those situations where it just came back to haunt me big time. And so we just have to learn how to really qualify people and build those relationships around us. So I think the takeaway from from your kind of your final point is that people coming out of law school, you know, they need to really not only develop relationships, but also make sure that they're keeping track of the attorneys prowess and effectiveness. Because if they're going to, you know, use those people down the road, they need to know that they're that they're doing a great, great job for their clients, and makes them very referral. And that makes it easier for you to be able to help your clients in multiple ways. Right?
Anita Ventrelli 25:54
Exactly. Right.
Steve Fretzin 25:55
Yeah. So as we wrap up, is there anything that you'd like to promote or anything coming up? Or how do people get in touch with you?
Anita Ventrelli 26:03
People can get in touch with me by going to our law firms website, which is SDFlaw.com their contact information for for myself and for all the rest of the firm. And I think the one thing reflecting back on and I've been practicing for 30 years now, when you go out and you do good things and you don't expect anything in return, good things will come to you.
Steve Fretzin 26:32
It's called karma, right?
Anita Ventrelli 26:34
It is called karma indeed.
Steve Fretzin 26:36
Well, Anita, thank you so much. Just an absolute pleasure having you on the show and hearing your thoughts. And I want to just thank you again, and we'll see you soon, you know, in our in our regularly scheduled meetings, and, you know, take care and have a great weekend. Okay.
Anita Ventrelli 26:51
Thank you, Steve, you do the same.
Steve Fretzin 26:52
You got it on for my listening audience. You know, Hey, thank you for spending some time with us today. And hopefully you got a couple of good nuggets and takeaways from our chat today, you know, makes you one step closer to being that lawyer confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Keep listening, I've got more great guests like Anita coming up. Also, if you haven't seen I've written three books and I'd love for you to check them out. They're all on Amazon on different legal business development and marketing networking subjects. Also, if you're interested in a free ebook, feel free to email me directly at Steve@Fretzin.com, you know, let me know which book you want or all three and I'll send them to you in an email PDF. So that's all we got. Take care everybody be safe in the stay well.
Narrator 27:40
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life Changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website Fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.